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Casual Building Dead ?

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With the change to building mechanics last night (i.e. the "bug fix") I can't help but wonder if the less hardcore players out there are just gonna skip building altogether.

An example, I built a L2 reactor, vendorcomps, with L5 build skill at a station with 12.000+ faction and terminal said I couldn't get above 178% QL (it came out at 174%).
I had a L6 reactor built by another player, at max buildskill, again 12k+ faction and result was 164-165% (rebuilt it once).

Yes, the more you build the better your results are gonna be, but honestly the majority of players won't build those 1000's of items needed for it to make a difference. Yes, you can have playermade components, but for L2-3-4 stuff ?

Don't get me wrong, I like a challenge and have always been an avid crafter in every game I played (including EnB Origins), but killing low level crafting is not really a good way to spark peoples interest in building.

I totally understand why L6+ stuff needs to be "difficult" to make and why dedicated crafters should have an upside, but I think there needs to be some tweaking to low level crafting in order for things to be balanced.

I remember back in "Origins" when it could take 10+ combines of a L9 gun with pure playermade components before you got one with 190%+ and I don't see a problem with that. It makes for a healthy economy with HQ items being scarce and sought after. Putting these restraints on low level gear is just not good though...

What results are the dedicated crafters seeing ? Skit, Magoo, etc ?
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Building was adding station faction [b]TWICE[/b]. That was a [b]bug[/b] and has been fixed now so building is working like it was working all time.

Fly safe!

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That wasn't really the point of my post though Zackman, as I stated that it was a "bug fix" in my post.

The point is with all the changes to building compared to previous versions is that when you did "fix that bug" it completely broke the building aspect for everything at lower levels.
I am not sure if the new faction parameters or the new "build more and get better" parameters are set way wrong, but something is definately making low level building a total mess right now.

Noone is going to bother building on their characters while leveling up as there is no point being able to make a crappy 150-160% item even if your buildskill is several levels higher than the item you are making (see my example above). Actually noone is going to bother building much at all unless they have a Trader making comps for them.

Again, I don't mind a challenge personally, and I will for sure max out comp building on my PP asap to make building somewhat worthwhile, but I just feel that you need to have a look at the general situation as it feels severly imbalanced for the majority of players. Sure, it might be balanced around only using playermade comps, but that puts a severe restraint on the economy and feasability of building for most players.

Also one thing about QL intervals, in "Origins" you always had a chance of building something at 200% even if the lower limit for some builds was 125-130%. The terminals today give a very limited interval which takes away a fun aspect of building as you can't get that "lucky roll" on a build. I would personally love to see this changed, not sure if I am the only one though :)

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You dont understand how building works.

Dont expect to come in the game, hit the manufacture button a few times and get items at 200% - even not at higher levels - it's simply not woking this way.
Build is getting better over time, the more you build (called experience).

Every builder knows that and since we all were just starting over everyone know it will take it's time to get there again.


That's it...really, get used to it.

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I would suggest using player made comps as with vendor comps I was getting 150% but with pm comps was getting 190+

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Zackman, I do understand how it works. I just wanted to put forward a possible balance issue as noone is going to have enough "experience" (as you put it) to make useful stuff at lower levels. But apparently my points aren't valid, so I'll give it a rest.

Shaddex, yeah, I think I mentioned it several times in my post ;)

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Absolutely Totte. You do have a valid point. Its a pitty that Zack never seems to listen to the players and spends so much time insulting them, or jumping down their throats when someone posts a valid point.

Guys, I have to say it, with all the changes made to the game, in mine and in the opinions of many I talk to on a daily basis (many that don't seem to have the courage to post here themselves regarding issues), you guys are squeezing the enjoyment factor out of this game for many players. This recent crafting system incarnation is the latest example. Take things from an actual former games development manager in real life.... Making things in game challenging is one thing, but taking things out, or altering things that the players enjoy is the wrong way to go about it. You should always ALWAYS! be keeping an ear open to the players for honest feedback. Always, listen to the people that actually play the game. After all, they are the reason this project is suppose to exist. We want to login here and have a good time, to forget about the droll of their daily lives, and play a game they truly love and enjoy. I do not know nor really care how I am perceived, but rest assured my comments are meant to reflect the genuine passion I (and many others) have for this game. I am not here to stir the pot (or up to anything Zack). I am simply here to inform you guys of how you are being perceived by the players (and I don't mean Magoo).

Many players feel that you guys are not listening to us any more. Many may not have the courage to come here to complain themselves. You are earning reputation for being disrespectful to players, not listening to them, and changing the game to a state that falls outside of scope of the actual Live game from the previous decade, and are purposely making things too difficult and unenjoyable. Sure, there are always ways to improve things from live, but honestly things as of late are not heading in that direction. There should be more of an open dialogue to the players in regards to the game, and less attitude. As an Admiral of Static, I see more than my share of gripes and complaints. I would not make this up, nor lie about it. And its unfortunate that the players feel this way about it, and many of those more visible developers that seem to be running the emulator.

Again, please don't take this negatively. We simply want to see this game headed in the right direction again on all fronts.

Thanks for your time, and for reading. :)

-Overt.
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[i]I have to agree with everything that has been said[/i]. I talk to lot of people and everyone seems to be of the same mindset. NO one wants to have to stress over a game that they once enjoyed playing. I come here to enjoy playing a game with some of the most amazing people in the world and to get away from the real life issues. I truly hope this post will open some eyes and minds and hopefully ears to the player base, keeping this game the Fun gamne that it was..

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Building is now Live-like.

It's more enjoyable, gaining crafting xp, faction, and recipes.
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Guess I'm in the minority but I like it better now. It should be really difficult to get 200% items. This makes them more prized and will be better long term for the economy. Other reasons to build? Some people really love getting that next print that they are missing. Or seeing 200% on the terminal when its rare. And PM items even if not 200% are better than 100% or not available and cheaper. You either like building or not.

And to be sustainable the devs can't just cater to the old ENB players who want everything to be easy. In the long run they will need to attract new players or the game will die. And actually up to a certain difficulty the more challenging things are the longer people play MMORPG's. imo

Of course opinions differ. Edited by Deslok
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Am I wrong to think if it's in the skill description, then it should be true... All build skills say in there description increases quality of manufactured items. One would believe if you have a certain level of build everything below a certain point should be a snap. My 2 cents on this subject.
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I agree with you Totte. This is not how the original EnB was , this is how they want it to be now. Unfortunatly after playeing EnB to sunset, and folowing all the advancments these fine group of ppl made to revive the game (awsome work ppl ) i find this aspect takes some of the fun away for me... time to give up on this ghost ....

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I re-read this thread twice. I fail to understand most of the posts after #2. Low quality builds were a bug that has been fixed.

I can't remember what I had for breakfast, but I do remember just how frustrating analyzing and building was at times during EA's live, which was one of reasons EA put in the terminal controllers and overrides. (IE: the bellyaching on the EA forums concerning building.) Also, the mad dash for the Zenrei devices, Ego/ID matrixes.
I remember purposely building items and vendoring them to help increase quality on the builds, the more you made the better they got.

This game just had a major patch, major... I can remember much smaller patches that screwed up much more stuff, lol. My point is, post concerns, and items for discussion, but tone down the rants please. These guys do this work for free and really it has to be disheartening to read some of the rants. Bringing things up in a nicer way will most certainly be received better. I'm not pointing any fingers at any one person in this thread, just the general tone.

My 2 credits, flame away.

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I just want to ask a really simple question of the players.

Why do you have to be guaranteed 200 percent quality on every build for crafting to be enjoyable?

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I've got to jump in and side with the devs/bug fix on this one. I remember during live seeing big time builders charging premium rates for 200% items because they just didn't come out all the time. Buying a set of Zets from the guild builder I got 1x 200%, 3x in the 190% range and then 1x at 178% (it's scared me to this day! :D ) even with PM parts and faction. The rebuild of that low Zet at the parts and we started from scratch. Players with a ton of cash had all 200% stuff and paid well for it but I was happy getting stuff 180%+ most of the time.

I won't lie and say I didn't like getting spoiled by 200% builds I made during the stress tests but at the same time I can see how that could take away from dedicating yourself to being a builder of stuff. This is actually going to force me to buy more stuff and interact with more people....like an MMO should IMO :)

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I don't stanig. I did pretty much nothing but mining/building in live. on a 19k dialup couldn't do much else. I can still remember when i had managed to build enough stuff and enough diff stuff to start getting 200% builids it was an accomplishment i enjoyed almost as much as the people who got the stuff did.

As for the rants. Sorry people but it's a game. Relax and talk nice. Will almost always get more and better responses with calm nice words.

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Let me give you a hypothetical that might actually make sense to you guys regarding this.

Your car breaks down, right? Now you can choose to get a replacement part put in by one of the following three people:

1. Someone who has never worked on cars before (toon with just the par building skill and no builds in his lists)

2. Someone who has tinkered a little bit (toon with one level higher build skill and a few builds in his lists)

3. Someone who has spent their whole life working on cars (toon with max build and thousands of builds or maps in his lists)


Are you following me here? Its a specialization. Yeah you can make an item decently in the 160s or so, and sometimes higher if you build every now and then, but those who dedicate themselves to just building will be far better at it than you will, eventually.
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[quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1353977637' post='67308']
I just want to ask a really simple question of the players.

Why do you have to be guaranteed 200 percent quality on every build for crafting to be enjoyable?
[/quote]


While I have not tried building anything since the patch, I do like the idea that it is harder to get 200% quality stuff. It does mix it up a bit and its cool that everyone cannot easily expect 200% gear on L1-L8 stuff, unless its L9, in which case 190%+ is the standard.

I think, however, OP makes a good point about casual building. While this does make waiting to see how the build comes out more exciting (as opposed to here's 200K, gimme my 200% L6 beams now), this does risk making the established builders even more necessary as they will be the ones who will (may?) reliably start hitting 200% on most items again, while casual builders cannot.

The best fix I could come up with, given what I know of the game mechanics and therefore what would be possible, off the top of my head would be this: Keep the system where building an item more makes it more likely that future builds will be of higher quality. But institute a counter system where builds over a certain quality (say +15% over the average player build) causes a faction hit in that station. There would be a floor to how low your faction could go this way, for example, not below +6000. This way, a dedicated builder could improve the quality of their builds because they are building so much, but would be limited based on the faction hit. If someone really wanted a 200% item, they could give (or pay) the builder the required, for example, half-eaten jenquai suits, and they would bump their faction to +12000 or whatever. They would thus be able to get the highest quality builds because they both have the requisite faction and the experience from building the item, but because of the faction hit, their faction would decline (however quickly or slowly as the devs would want this to be) so that they are not much better than a casual builder all the time, but can be if someone is willing to pony up the money for the faction boost. An alternative model would be the builder always buys more faction items so keep his build quality up but charges his/her customers more because he/she had this added cost. Edited by Specops

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I had a long thought out post set up but it simply boils down to Stanig being Spot On with his post above.

Why would any builders bother when everyone can make 200%? I'm a casual builder and I'm not goin to stop building just because everything that pops out of the terminal is less than 200%. As Stanig said it's a specialization. That means everyone can't do it. Maybe I will one day far in the future, but until then I will still be using equipment better than I can buy.

There was, and now is, absolutely no guarantee that highest faction, playermade comps and lots of builds would/will pop out 200's every time, even for the best of builders, as it should be.

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I think the assumptions made earlier are erroneous. It seems to be assumed that if you can't make 200 or nearly 200% items while leveling, you won't bother to build. I can say first hand while leveling in ST4 I constantly built items. Sure it wasn't 200%, but 150, 180 or whatever is better than the vendor 100%. THAT was my goal. Better.

As it was mentioned before - you can find someone who specializes in building and pay for that 200%, build it yourself, and get what you get, or interact with other players for a better outcome - IE get player made comps or but ores to make your own comps. I for one would love to supply you with ores to increase your chance of making that item you'd like. It helps the economy and increases interaction.

btw I will have to say, my first build at like level 8 (lvl1 device print provided by NPC) turned out to be 200% and I was shocked. Maybe it was a fluke, (I'll be building more soon) but I have and will continue to build for myself, and anyone who asks, even if I can't do 200%

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Ok , I'll put my hand up and say I have been stung by the build % being pumped out at the moment.
But while I curse at the screen sometimes I think that this will mean the guys/girls who spend alot of time building and printing and getting better % builds will be worth their weight in gold/credits.
Just because it is player made it doesn't HAVE to be 200% but I will do want to know that if the parts I put in are high % that my lowest limit is a reasonable high % , its still a roll of the dice but I want to know that with effort (building comps etc) that I am stacking the odds in my favor.
It should be working this way but I'm sure we will see if it pans out that way.

A tweak is changing numbers , a catastrophic failure is redesigning the game - which do you think this is ??

All the best

Alk

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For me its ok now, low ore makes more sense now, so explores with lower prospect skill can sell ore on market and not only at vendor, i see 2 type of players , the one side only like 200% and will pay millions for 1% more on a loot only item and the other side play also with stuff under 200%. That opens the market for 2 kinds of traders the 1 with less experence and lower % and the trader with higher experence (spending time and millions for this)and only 200% stuff for higher price. I am sure the prices for 200% Stuff will change fast on Market and plp will realise that 200% IS NOT STANDART.
So its on every1 else what he will do, go out kill stuff , mine ore to get credits or stay at the station and build componets and other stuff to get higher experence and be a TRADER.

I dont see any point for me to enjoy this game lesser bec of having a 190% Reactor, and at end lvl 8-9 u can call it content to get the best stuff 8).

take care
Mad

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Madline hits the nail on the head. The idea is to change this flawed thinking that anything under 200 is somehow flawed or not good. Fact is 200 percent should be as rare as uber, or at least worked very hard at achieving.

Can you get to a situation where nearly every build is 200? Yes, you can, but you have to dedicate to it, printing and building and ego matrix and faction and just practice practice practice. Anyone can do it, too, if they invest the time to do so. Theres a little bit of a grind to it, like anything else in the game, but a TT made today that cant even pop a 140 level 2 engine, could potentially be the Vaden of tomorrow building 200 everything in a few months.

You dont sculpt the statue of david the first time you touch chisel to marble. And thats what a lot of people complaining seem to be asking for, perfect builds on newbie toons, not going to happen.

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[quote]

You dont sculpt the statue of david the first time you touch chisel to marble
[/quote]

There is my New signature !

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I've only managed to get level 3 build skills so far, but I don't recognize the behaviour described in the orginal post. My impression is that build quality is higher than original live but lower than beta. I've mixed in some player made components though, so it might have increased my build quality.
The analyze success rate seems better than both beta and original live, for which I'm thankful. I burned a lot of credits in ST4 and beta getting vendor items printed.
The only items I can imagine where I think that the build quality range may be too low is for items where many of the components are not manufacturable. I don't know how hard it would be to code, but I think that components there are no way of improving should affect build quality less than components that can be improved.

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