Casual Building Dead ?

[Prrekoorb]

Time for my twopence worth Things were far to easy to build at 200% in the past (beta) and just about anyone with the build skill could walk up to a manu term and pop out a lvl9 weapon first go ( and other items) . Which for players who had bothered in becoming 'builders' was a bit of a slap in the face to be honest . I must admit i am finding it very hard at the moment to get high % on items purely due to lack of funds lol (because the way i see it is that was all i needed once i achieved lvl9 builds on my PP last week and faction at my building station met desired lvl ,unlimited credits would have been all i needed to achieve 200% on anything i could map and build) ,credits for me without my toon being high enough to kill the high reward mobs is a pita.But i will get there and meanwhile have created a miner to be my credit 'hoover' suppose i could farm lower mobs as well on the builder (before anyone else points this out ) . BUT ! my point is you are either a builder or your not , and as such they will get great satisfaction when they can more or less do high % builds every time . Also they will then be charging for the time skill and credits they have invested in the build Though of course desire for a particular item and the amount of builders who can equal (or better) the quality of that build will then come into play as time goes on , therfore going some way to creating an 'economy' . People are quite at liberty to casualy build for themselves and others but just expect lower % and fee's for thier services




ps. sorry i ramble on a bit lol

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Prrekoorb' timestamp='1354266454' post='67501']
Time for my twopence worth Things were far to easy to build at 200% in the past (beta) and just about anyone with the build skill could walk up to a manu term and pop out a lvl9 weapon first go ( and other items) . Which for players who had bothered in becoming 'builders' was a bit of a slap in the face to be honest . I must admit i am finding it very hard at the moment to get high % on items purely due to lack of funds lol (because the way i see it is that was all i needed once i achieved lvl9 builds on my PP last week and faction at my building station met desired lvl ,unlimited credits would have been all i needed to achieve 200% on anything i could map and build) ,credits for me without my toon being high enough to kill the high reward mobs is a pita.But i will get there and meanwhile have created a miner to be my credit 'hoover' suppose i could farm lower mobs as well on the builder (before anyone else points this out ) . BUT ! my point is you are either a builder or your not , and as such they will get great satisfaction when they can more or less do high % builds every time . Also they will then be charging for the time skill and credits they have invested in the build Though of course desire for a particular item and the amount of builders who can equal (or better) the quality of that build will then come into play as time goes on , therfore going some way to creating an 'economy' . People are quite at liberty to casualy build for themselves and others but just expect lower % and fee's for thier services




ps. sorry i ramble on a bit lol
[/quote]

+1
To you Prre.
Anyone got a Terminal over ride?

[JoeTheDestroyer]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354253183' post='67495']
The only things we could reveal would cause the formula to become clear to the people who are playing which would devalue the efforts and challenge.
[/quote]
From your and Stanig's replies, I suspected as much, that's why I tried to drop the matter. I have to admit though, it depresses me a little that the system could be broken by answering such simple questions...

If you guys ever decide to revisit this, I'd be happy to try and help you make something more robust...

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354253183' post='67495']
Why would a real world analogy be irrelevant exactly? This is a game based on the future of humanity.
[/quote]
Because essentially, all the real world analogies boil down to arguing for the need for an xp system. I've never disputed this. What I'm arguing is that the game is internally inconsistent in that the combat system is based on a single xp system while the crafting system is based on this stacked dual-xp system (first TL, then this pseudo-xp system based on print and build count).

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354253183' post='67495']
That being said, hauling cargo and trading teaches one to negotiate which is a vital skill for any manufacturer who is also the retailer. There aren't a lot of instances of this in large corporations, but definitely in small one-man shops, which you are in effect.
[/quote]
It's a vital skill for the manufacturer selling his products, yes. But this is already modeled by the Negotiate skill. It still has nothing to do with the actual production of a product (i.e. build skill).

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354253183' post='67495']
I don't understand how this makes you 'dead in the water'.
...
This is something you will have to learn through experimentation and time.
[/quote]
Because I have no way of knowing if an experiment failed because I'm trying the wrong thing or because I didn't spend enough time trying it.

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354253183' post='67495']
You can still play and enjoy, you just can't min/max building skills because you don't know the formulae involved.
[/quote]
Uhh, enjoy what? Min/maxing and roleplaying/story are all there is to an RPG. In this game the roleplaying element is provided by missions but those are exhausted pretty quickly. The majority of the time is spent improving your character (i.e. min/maxing)... If you take that out, what's left to the game?

Sure, I could go play my warrior or scout characters, but isn't that kinda missing the point?

BTW, I want to thank you for saying "min/max" instead of "exploit", misuse of the word exploit is a bit of a pet-peeve of mine...

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1354253183' post='67495']
The coy attitude is the prerogative of a game developer. No game developer that I have ever seen reveals all...
[/quote]
We're talking about two different things. Yes, it is [i]absolutely[/i] the developer's perogative how much they want to reveal about [i]their[/i] game. However, the coy attitude is a personal choice. It's the difference between "and that's all I feel like telling you" and "and I can't tell you any more because...". You're initial reply read like the former to me, resulting in my comment.

As I said above, now that I know it's a matter of "can't tell me" rather than "won't tell me", I'll drop the matter.

[quote name='Shaddex' timestamp='1354259358' post='67497']
small point..
<snip>
guess what.....
you have to work it out.
[/quote]
Missed point... I never asked for intricate details, just general information. There's plenty of detailed game information that you (or rather, the client) does tell us. I wouldn't have thought the questions I asked would have been revealing enough to break the game, but it appears I was wrong, so I've retracted them.

Don't get me wrong, figuring out the math behind systems like these is something I have a lot of fun with. It's just that in this particular case, the independent variables are so many and the dependent variables are so few that I would have liked a little help narrowing the possibilities.

[quote name='Prrekoorb' timestamp='1354266454' post='67501']
Things were far to easy to build at 200% in the past (beta)
[/quote]
Absolutely, and honestly I was surprised at how easy it was in current live before the faction bug was fixed. However, I think that things have now swung to the other side of reasonable. I don't expect something for nothing, but am I the only one that thinks it's ridiculous that a lvl 5 builder can't build a 200% item 4 levels beneath him (lvl 2) without using a complete set of 200% player made components? It just feels like the build skills themselves have been devalued. I'm told I need to work to get good builds, then what was all that time I spent leveling the build skills to begin with?

[quote name='Prrekoorb' timestamp='1354266454' post='67501']
just about anyone with the build skill could walk up to a manu term and pop out a lvl9 weapon first go ( and other items)
[/quote]
So? Anyone with lvl 9 weapons skill can slap in a lvl9 weapon and tackle the big mobs. Why isn't this a slap in the face for all the players who bother becoming "warriors"?

---

Geez, sorry for the wall of text... Edited November 30, 2012 by JoeTheDestroyer

[jrichards]

Yeah, I was wondering why I was having so much of a problem building items. As such I am no longer building anything. If they change it back to how it worked in Live I may start building again...but atm its just needlessly complicated.

Unfortunately that was one of the best things about EnB....the trade skills system. Now its just a hassle. I think a lot more people are just going to level with looted and vendor purchased gear 100%. Edited December 1, 2012 by Crichton

[Rossdie [BT]]

Because essentially, all the real world analogies boil down to arguing for the need for an xp system. I've never disputed this. What I'm arguing is that the game is internally inconsistent in that the combat system is based on a single xp system while the crafting system is based on this stacked dual-xp system (first TL, then this pseudo-xp system based on print and build count).

The problem I have with this argument is your comparing apples to oranges. An apple to apples analogy is just what we have, Combat, Explore and Trade levels are fairly easy to obtain, so you cannot compare the crafting system to gaining Combat levels, they are two different areas of gameplay.

[Mattsacre]

But Ross it is essensually a apple to apple, orange to orange arguement he is making.

What is CL/EL/TL?
Doing something over and over to gain experience and become "proficient" enough that you graduate to greater access in tools and content, so that you can do something over and over and gain experience and become "proficient" at the new tier of skill, rinse repeat. (of course thats over simplified, combat, explore and trade has it's own nuances to it, there are more/less efficient ways of doing all 3)

What is the "new" build system?
Doing builds over and over to gain a [i]NEBULOUS[/i] experience and become "proficient" enough that you gain some [i]NEBULOUS THRESHOLD,[/i] that gains you access to tools and content, so that you can once again do somethiing over and over and once again become "proficient" in that [i]NEBULOUS[/i] new experience level. (once again, over simplified, like combat/explore/trade has it's own nuances, so does "build xp" also haveeffieciency modifiers).


Sorry, but that other poster about RL analegy and trade effect build etc.
What does the price of rutabega futures have to do with farmer Bob's skill in turnip cultivation?
Yes, a higher negotiation skill should effect the PRICE of items purchased/traded, even the terminal costs...
But as Terrel said, those six things effect build effects (feel free to "enlighten" us if not so), but the only thing that TL/negotiate effects is COSTS associated. Yes,farmer Bob needs fertilizer and water and a myriad of other things to produce his own brand of alchemaic magic...and perhaps rutabega futures could influence his outlay expenses, but not his SKILL of growing turnips.

Currently,crafting is a hidden xp..for whatever reason (some have said coyness, others fear of min/maxing etc.) they either can't or won't give information on the "formula" of crafts. IMO I hate lack of info, even if folks min/max, they are not for lack of a better word "exploiting" things, they are WORKING towards a a goal, just as the guy that isn't aware of the precise mechanics is..they are both hitting that manu button etc. I MUCH prefer someone to give me precise details about something before I agree to it. I'm not the type to work for a employer that says, "come to work at 5 am. stay for an undisclosed time, work for a undisclosed wage, and work without a defined outline of expected behaviour from all parties" .

That is basicly the situation:do this for a undisclosed time frame, with undisclosed resources expected, with no disclosed expected results, with ill defined reward as a outcome. With those paramiters, how does one know if its "bugged" or working as intended?

I know that the client probably precludes doing so (even if there was a will to do so), I for one would LOVE a manufacturers "xp bar", a visual and measurable valuation of your progress towards a definable goul........but then thats just me lol

[Mattsacre]

And wow have we wandered off the OP.
From what I gleened, OP's feeling was that the "new" system was discouraging those new to building, that people with high level of build tier skill, were getting a paltry quality result when building way below level. I would tend to agree that there needs to be a curve to lower level gear vs. higher level gear, especially in comparison to building under skill gear.

For instance, it takes more and more xp in a bar of CL/TL/EL to level the bar, I personally think there needs to be a "build curve" also, so someone building a L2 item with L6+skill should be assured a 190%+ just by dent of their presumed expertise. So too, as the level of items and difference in skill narrows, it should take more to "level" their build expertise. This would have the effect of not discouraging those new to building, and act sort of a on-the-job training as to the nuances of what it takes to increase your Q% odds at the mid tiers..sort of graduating from apprentice to journeyman. Then at highest levels, hopefully you have learned quite a bit and are well on your way to mastery.

[shadowxsx]

[quote name='Rossdie' timestamp='1354323231' post='67543']
Because essentially, all the real world analogies boil down to arguing for the need for an xp system. I've never disputed this. What I'm arguing is that the game is internally inconsistent in that the combat system is based on a single xp system while the crafting system is based on this stacked dual-xp system (first TL, then this pseudo-xp system based on print and build count).

The problem I have with this argument is your comparing apples to oranges. An apple to apples analogy is just what we have, Combat, Explore and Trade levels are fairly easy to obtain, so you cannot compare the crafting system to gaining Combat levels, they are two different areas of gameplay.
[/quote]

I have to agree Rossdie I can understand some of it, but this way it almost seems we need a max level of 200 but the hidden build xp bar is not available and is unavailable to be viewed or contributes to the skill point pool.

If the current system is basing part of the build % on the list of builds you have, it gives trader classes an advantage over other classes since they can get far more maps and making warrior classes worse builders taking business away from them. Just the sheer number of maps trader classes can get is nuts as they get 4-5 classes of items to build. While all other classes only get 2, just the component list alone is crazy let alone the other 3-4. So this is an imbalance that makes other classes lesser builders.

IMO the only things that should go into % of the builds would be.

1. Faction rating of the station you are building on
2. Build skill levels (aka the 7 levels we have)
3. Quality of components used
4. The number of builds you have done (not counting components or ammo) .....Which only by a small part, maybe makes a small difference on lower level items 1-5 say 2-7% improvement on those, then 6-8 up to 10% and level 9 up to 15%

Anything else just over complicates it or unbalances it.

[Rossdie [BT]]

Mattsacre,

If I read what he said correctly, he is compairing Combat leveling to building and if that is the case that is not apples to apples. You building abilities do not have a direct effect from Trade leveling. From how I am reading the subtle hints how the building process is set-up, it has to do with faction, how many maps you have and how many times you have either built particular items or level of items to get better results. If that is the case then even if you are say trade level 25 with level 5 build, and someone has build level 9. If you have say the same faction with the particular station you are building at, have the same number of level 5 maps and have built the same amount of level 5 say weapons for example, the person at level 5 build could have the same results building a level 5 weap as a person with level 9 build skill. This of course would be if the total shear number of higher end maps the level 9 builders isn't a factor. But, since we don't know how it's actually set-up thats all a moot point I guess. But, my point still stands with trying to compare Combat leveling with building.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

[quote name='JoeTheDestroyer' timestamp='1354306266' post='67533']
From your and Stanig's replies, I suspected as much, that's why I tried to drop the matter. I have to admit though, it depresses me a little that the system could be broken by answering such simple questions...

If you guys ever decide to revisit this, I'd be happy to try and help you make something more robust...


Because essentially, all the real world analogies boil down to arguing for the need for an xp system. I've never disputed this. What I'm arguing is that the game is internally inconsistent in that the combat system is based on a single xp system while the crafting system is based on this stacked dual-xp system (first TL, then this pseudo-xp system based on print and build count).


It's a vital skill for the manufacturer selling his products, yes. But this is already modeled by the Negotiate skill. It still has nothing to do with the actual production of a product (i.e. build skill).


Because I have no way of knowing if an experiment failed because I'm trying the wrong thing or because I didn't spend enough time trying it.


Uhh, enjoy what? Min/maxing and roleplaying/story are all there is to an RPG. In this game the roleplaying element is provided by missions but those are exhausted pretty quickly. The majority of the time is spent improving your character (i.e. min/maxing)... If you take that out, what's left to the game?

Sure, I could go play my warrior or scout characters, but isn't that kinda missing the point?

BTW, I want to thank you for saying "min/max" instead of "exploit", misuse of the word exploit is a bit of a pet-peeve of mine...


We're talking about two different things. Yes, it is [i]absolutely[/i] the developer's perogative how much they want to reveal about [i]their[/i] game. However, the coy attitude is a personal choice. It's the difference between "and that's all I feel like telling you" and "and I can't tell you any more because...". You're initial reply read like the former to me, resulting in my comment.

As I said above, now that I know it's a matter of "can't tell me" rather than "won't tell me", I'll drop the matter.


Missed point... I never asked for intricate details, just general information. There's plenty of detailed game information that you (or rather, the client) does tell us. I wouldn't have thought the questions I asked would have been revealing enough to break the game, but it appears I was wrong, so I've retracted them.

Don't get me wrong, figuring out the math behind systems like these is something I have a lot of fun with. It's just that in this particular case, the independent variables are so many and the dependent variables are so few that I would have liked a little help narrowing the possibilities.


Absolutely, and honestly I was surprised at how easy it was in current live before the faction bug was fixed. However, I think that things have now swung to the other side of reasonable. I don't expect something for nothing, but am I the only one that thinks it's ridiculous that a lvl 5 builder can't build a 200% item 4 levels beneath him (lvl 2) without using a complete set of 200% player made components? It just feels like the build skills themselves have been devalued. I'm told I need to work to get good builds, then what was all that time I spent leveling the build skills to begin with?


So? Anyone with lvl 9 weapons skill can slap in a lvl9 weapon and tackle the big mobs. Why isn't this a slap in the face for all the players who bother becoming "warriors"?

---

Geez, sorry for the wall of text...
[/quote]

You all make the assumption that this is not the way it was in live. This formula only varies a very little bit from the live game. As far as "no way of knowing" that is sort of the intention, you learn through trial and error, not direct feedback telling you what to do to gain skill. If you always know how to make the massive gain, you have less satisfaction from becoming good at your art. You can decide how much you want to invest in your craft, or how much you do not. This is how we create an economy, by you not knowing it provides a credit sink, and the builders who give up, or go slow due to cost create exclusive markets allowing individual builders to excel at their craft. The point of this is that you're not ALL supposed to be the best crafters and you're not supposed to be cookie cutters. You can be better than each other and specialize in certain types of building and be better at it than others through practice.

Min/maxxing and rp/story are [b][u]not[/u][/b] all there is to an MMORPG, there's a damn fine reason for the Bartle test to exist. It is a well-respected thing among game designers because its well tested over the years video games have been with us. There are four major types of gamers, due to four major styles of play. Killers (PVPers), Achievers (First folks to obtain something.), Explorers (People who like to explore the game universe, be the first to map everything out.), and Socializers (the Folks who sit and F7 and gab while they build, buy and relax.)

Everyone has fun in a different way, not everyone sees the game world in the same way, and enjoys something different.

[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1354320368' post='67536']
Yeah, I was wondering why I was having so much of a problem building items. As such I am no longer building anything. If they change it back to how it worked in Live I may start building again...but atm its just needlessly complicated.

Unfortunately that was one of the best things about EnB....the trade skills system. Now its just a hassle. I think a lot more people are just going to level with looted and vendor purchased gear 100%.
[/quote]

Not sure what to say to this Crichton, but pardon me it seems almost like a tantrum state. "I'm gonna hold my breath until you give up." I understand its a 'hassle' but see my response above. WIthout challenge, there's no market or economy.

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1354328399' post='67546']
But Ross it is essensually a apple to apple, orange to orange arguement he is making.

What is CL/EL/TL?
Doing something over and over to gain experience and become "proficient" enough that you graduate to greater access in tools and content, so that you can do something over and over and gain experience and become "proficient" at the new tier of skill, rinse repeat. (of course thats over simplified, combat, explore and trade has it's own nuances to it, there are more/less efficient ways of doing all 3)

What is the "new" build system?
Doing builds over and over to gain a [i]NEBULOUS[/i] experience and become "proficient" enough that you gain some [i]NEBULOUS THRESHOLD,[/i] that gains you access to tools and content, so that you can once again do somethiing over and over and once again become "proficient" in that [i]NEBULOUS[/i] new experience level. (once again, over simplified, like combat/explore/trade has it's own nuances, so does "build xp" also haveeffieciency modifiers).


Sorry, but that other poster about RL analegy and trade effect build etc.
What does the price of rutabega futures have to do with farmer Bob's skill in turnip cultivation?
Yes, a higher negotiation skill should effect the PRICE of items purchased/traded, even the terminal costs...
But as Terrel said, those six things effect build effects (feel free to "enlighten" us if not so), but the only thing that TL/negotiate effects is COSTS associated. Yes,farmer Bob needs fertilizer and water and a myriad of other things to produce his own brand of alchemaic magic...and perhaps rutabega futures could influence his outlay expenses, but not his SKILL of growing turnips.

Currently,crafting is a hidden xp..for whatever reason (some have said coyness, others fear of min/maxing etc.) they either can't or won't give information on the "formula" of crafts. IMO I hate lack of info, even if folks min/max, they are not for lack of a better word "exploiting" things, they are WORKING towards a a goal, just as the guy that isn't aware of the precise mechanics is..they are both hitting that manu button etc. I MUCH prefer someone to give me precise details about something before I agree to it. I'm not the type to work for a employer that says, "come to work at 5 am. stay for an undisclosed time, work for a undisclosed wage, and work without a defined outline of expected behaviour from all parties" .

That is basicly the situation:do this for a undisclosed time frame, with undisclosed resources expected, with no disclosed expected results, with ill defined reward as a outcome. With those paramiters, how does one know if its "bugged" or working as intended?

I know that the client probably precludes doing so (even if there was a will to do so), I for one would LOVE a manufacturers "xp bar", a visual and measurable valuation of your progress towards a definable goul........but then thats just me lol
[/quote]

You did not know the formula any more in live than you do now. It is almost the same as it was then, and its not intended to tell you exactly how to gain. However, you said:

"What does the price of rutabega futures have to do with farmer Bob's skill in turnip cultivation?" - I have an answer for this. Bob's not going to spend time cultivating turnips if he would be more profitable in the Rutabaga market. Therefore he's not going to become as good at cultivating turnips, but instead probably start gaining skill with cultivating rutabagas.

A blacksmith doesn't create perfect iron implements the first time he does it, neither will you. A swordsmith doesn't create perfect swords the first time he does it, neither will you. A gunsmith... etc etc etc. If you craft items, you will see a raise in quality, and eventually players will develop their theories on how it works just as they did in live. ("Group up, the crafting results will be better!"). You're not bugtesting anymore, you're playing. [b]We[/b] know how it works, you do not, this is done so there is a credit sink and time sink that goes along with crafting. I'm not going to repeat myself there though, see what I said to Joe. If we had a way to modify the client, we might consider that, but we do not because we do not have its original source code. Therefore we cannot add a 'bar'. The best we could do would be to print something to the system chat, but even if we do that, we're not going to tell you every time. Telling you exactly where to go and exactly what to do leads to boredom, although we do recognize there is the other extreme of telling you absolutely nothing (which we DO NOT do here, i've mentioned in previous postings some of the things that affect it, after all. I just haven't told you HOW they do it.)

In the end, this is better for the health of the game and the economy within the game. This is true, despite the fact that some consider it to be 'not fun' because they don't know every detail. For what its worth though, I am quite aware having had a course in the psychology of a player that you can't please all of the people all of the time. There will always be some who are unhappy with a change. If you choose not to craft, you will open the market for others who are willing to take that risk and spend their credits on it. In turn they will be rewarded in the end whereas you will not.

Sorry guys, you haven't convinced me with these arguments.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1354329516' post='67547']
For instance, it takes more and more xp in a bar of CL/TL/EL to level the bar, I personally think there needs to be a "build curve" also, so someone building a L2 item with L6+skill should be assured a 190%+ just by dent of their presumed expertise. So too, as the level of items and difference in skill narrows, it should take more to "level" their build expertise. This would have the effect of not discouraging those new to building, and act sort of a on-the-job training as to the nuances of what it takes to increase your Q% odds at the mid tiers..sort of graduating from apprentice to journeyman. Then at highest levels, hopefully you have learned quite a bit and are well on your way to mastery.
[/quote]

Who's to say it doesn't do this?

[Stanig[IS]]

Rawr

[img]http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/BARTL/Stanig.png[/img]




lolololol @ forum title. who did that XD XD XD i love it

[Terrell [BT]]

Hmm, if building low level reactors makes me a better builder of low level reactors, I'm cool with that even if other types of builds aren't affected. I just hope that in order to produce 200% L4 Draco reactors I don't have to limit by builds to draco reactors. If building the more advanced, meaning higher level, reactors helps with less advanced ones that would be nice. Would also be nice if how much building a particular item (shield, device, weapon, engine, reactor) helps with future builds is weighted by level. So building a L9 X reactor helps you become a better reactor builder more quickly than building a L4 Z reactor. (same applies to other types of builds)

[skitszo]

So; I'm one of the builders ingame, and at first the new system seems like a drag but if you just think and stop being lazy you can build 200% items. I currently post live have built 200% items 2 thru 8. I'll confess the level 8 200% is no picnic but i've proved it can be done. So in next few days we'll see just how difficult the level 9 will be.

Selling:
cygnus 7 200% @ 2million credits
Supernova 7 @ 2 million credits
Pleides 8 200% @ 5 million credits (to be honest should be higher)


and before you say i'm gauging; you level up a builder and get 200%
I challenge you to save money by not buying a reactor at those prices-- (I double dog dare you)

[Stanig[IS]]

No such thing as price gouging in a cornered economy. Needs better competition.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='skitszomm' timestamp='1354337703' post='67582']
So; I'm one of the builders ingame, and at first the new system seems like a drag but if you just think and stop being lazy you can build 200% items. I currently post live have built 200% items 2 thru 8. I'll confess the level 8 200% is no picnic but i've proved it can be done. So in next few days we'll see just how difficult the level 9 will be.

Selling:
cygnus 7 200% @ 2million credits
Supernova 7 @ 2 million credits
Pleides 8 200% @ 5 million credits (to be honest should be higher)


and before you say i'm gauging; you level up a builder and get 200%
I challenge you to save money by not buying a reactor at those prices-- (I double dog dare you)
[/quote]

2M credits doesn't seem unreasonable for those reactors at this time. I'm surprised that the Pleides reactor is more expensive, since it's vendor. I suspect; however, as more builders become proficient in those reactors, supply & demand will dictate that the prices for them start to lower. Eventually, more equipment will be introduced over the course of the game, and the first builders who can hit the 200% on the item should make more than the Johnny come latelys to the building.

[Prrekoorb]

In a previous post i said ........
Prrekoorb, on 30 November 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

just about anyone with the build skill could walk up to a manu term and pop out a 200% lvl9 weapon first go ( and other items)

JoeTheDestroyer quoted the above and then put ........
So? Anyone with lvl 9 weapons skill can slap in a lvl9 weapon and tackle the big mobs. Why isn't this a slap in the face for all the players who bother becoming "warriors"?


I (Prre) would say to that .......
Ah yes , but it requires a lot of skill for a warrior to do it properly (and with knowledge and support ) . Especially in raids (and it helps if you have 200% gear where possible )
Just point and fire is sometimes not enough , same as click and build should require effort and reward .

[Falstar [MOD]]

[quote name='shadowxsx' timestamp='1354330095' post='67548']

If the current system is basing part of the build % on the list of builds you have, it gives trader classes an advantage over other classes since they can get far more maps and making warrior classes worse builders taking business away from them. Just the sheer number of maps trader classes can get is nuts as they get 4-5 classes of items to build. While all other classes only get 2, just the component list alone is crazy let alone the other 3-4. So this is an imbalance that makes other classes lesser builders.

[/quote]

Isn't that the advantage of being a Trader class? If everyone could build everything, what would distinguish a trader from a warrior? Negotiate? Warriors ARE better at combat. Traders should be better at trading/building. Explorers, at exploring (in this case xp from mining etc). You are absolutely correct. Other classes are lesser builders... because they are not builders, they are warriors or explorers.

[STRETTCH]

the real issue here is you are considering this to be "crafting" and what building is in this game is "manufactoring" .
these are two very different things. in manufactoring you have a blueprint which list the components and instructions for manufactoring an item. the components are put into a machine or assy line and the part produced is the same quality everytime

"crafting " is an art, "manufactoring" is an industrial skill.

if you have the skill lvl to produce the item, you put the components into the manufactoring terminal and it should produce the same item everytime.
now that said, if you change the quality of the components you will change the quality of the item.
so what would logically make building more difficult would be to vary the quality lvl of the components, as it is if I use 200% components I should expect to build a 200% item everytime
as i am not crafting each item, I am simply manufactoring them.

As for traders being able to build better then warriors thats just not so, any warrior with lvl9 build weapons skill can build as well as any trader with lvl 9 build weapon skill. The fix for this would be to remove all build skills from all classes except traders, but then we would be reinventing the game. Edited December 4, 2012 by STRETTCH

[GenghisBob]

While I see what Strettch is saying, the machine is actually doing the building, the machine builds at 100% to 125%, a slight varance do to machine wear and stock component variances.
Put in higher quality components and you do get better results.
But, have a skilled operator who knows from experance how to tweak the machine and place the parts just so, and you can get very high quality output.

There is a reason that experinced machine operators make more money than a trainee in real life.

[STRETTCH]

[quote name='GenghisBob' timestamp='1354647268' post='67899']
While I see what Strettch is saying, the machine is actually doing the building, the machine builds at 100% to 125%, a slight varance do to machine wear and stock component variances.
Put in higher quality components and you do get better results.
But, have a skilled operator who knows from experance how to tweak the machine and place the parts just so, and you can get very high quality output.

There is a reason that experinced machine operators make more money than a trainee in real life.
[/quote]I believe your build skill lvl is what makes you that experienced machine operator, and more importantly the process technician.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

The trader *should* be better at all build related activities, if it is not we (and the original devs) have done the job wrong. You [u]should not[/u] be equal in terms of trading with a warrior class in any way shape or form.

That being said, Strettch that's not a great argument. However, given that you've already attempted to make it, how do you explain Analysis and Refining? those are exploratory skills. There's also 'Dismantle' which was never implemented but in the original design documents that was more or less a 'skill' that improved by effort which allowed you to recover more parts when you took a finished item apart during analysis.

You should not always expect best of the best simply because you're using the best component, that's a flaw. There's always some statistical variance, always was in the live game as well. This [u]will not[/u] change. Machines don't always perform to the highest standards either, they just have a higher likelihood of doing it on a regular basis than human hands. All factors contribute to your build skill, but Genghis is right in saying that the experience operator does a better job. I've never seen an instance where an unskilled laborer produces a better product than a skilled one, not ever.

I honestly doubt that I ever will. A machine can only do so much.

Guys going forward in this thread, if you're intending to try to convince us, we're going to have to see analysis from outside your own realm. Look at the 'big picture' too.

[Rezwalker]

A variance of a few percent is acceptable but we see up to 30% difference in build quality from one item to another and thats more of a coin toss and not in the spirit of the game.
Work hard, build a bunch of things and have higher expectations and results in quality not draw of the straw like it is now.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Yes, but that same variance reduces considerably over time and experience with the current formula.

[Rezwalker]

If thats the case then there shouldn't be a problem, after lets say 100 builds of an item the formula says you can build 195%-200% with expected 200% and you get close to that span,
now its more like 170%-200% with expected 200% and you get 169% lol