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The Combat Cloak Problem


Ryle

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So am I, considering I just did it again. Thought I know I didnt finish off the last couple accessory mobs, I could have, I just dont have the time to focus my attention, kids up. I was lucky I got it in tonight. I did make a mistake and it did almost cost me, I finished with like 1000 hull left when I martyred at a really bad moment (there was also a smaller one due to a lagspike but eh)

I am sure it is possible to die very easily on this, but I think ive confirmed the ability to glitch your recloak. I am able to re-engage cloak the instant I fire, its how I am able to do this. I simply hit both buttons at once.

Btw, 97% sting for my trouble, but oh well.

[img]http://i49.tinypic.com/n4xhmg.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i50.tinypic.com/akigx3.jpg[/img] Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340264984' post='59312']
You know what I don't get about you Bleak? You were wearing this ability like a badge of honor and running your mouth in guild chat about interfering with the big guilds rotation, but when you get called out for doing it and others seek to find the mechanics that make it possible to fix, you go into attack mode to discredit or make it sound like it was harder than it was.


[/quote]

See this is what I don't understand. Just so everyone understands the big guild did not set up a rotation to monopolize the game. Its was setup so that there was a chance that we were able to at least have one night that were able to do Gobb and controller. With out the "big" fighting over it. With that in mind we understood that if there was another guild/group that were able to do on the night that was a certain guilds night per say. So be it that's the game. To sit back and see a single player do this on their own. For whatever reason (spite or just because they can). Doesn't make it right. Whether this is a exploit or playing with the game mechanics. Everyone knows that this content is meant to be a group(s) effort. So to do it otherwise is wrong.

I feel confident in our DEV team that this will be address. When it does there will be some that like it and some that wont like the way that it is handled. If you don't want your class/skills nerfed, destroy or otherwise changed (outside of being balanced). Don't participate in these exploits, bugs or whatever it is.

I also don't understand why some ppl feel the need to attack anyone. If you have a issue or a concern. Then take a screenshot and send them to the appropriate ppl to be address. Just my 2 cents for whatever they are worth. Edited by lordfalcon
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Controller drones (troller himself didnt spawn, *shrug* maybe i did it wrong, but i killed the precursor and the obsolete)

[img]http://i47.tinypic.com/2vtqwkx.jpg[/img]


[img]http://i49.tinypic.com/68d05j.jpg[/img]
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Yes xp debt, my first try i sorta fatfingered and hit the 2 instead of the 1, out just a little too long.

Also note in the second screenshot proof of the zero damage bug.

How I am doing this, devs: I am hitting F and 1 at the exact same time while on follow. I am firing and cloaking instantly. My cloak icon is back up before the second tick of my damage even registers. The mobs either dont even register me out of cloak, or by the time they have fired, i am back under cloak at take either 0 or like 200 damage from their attacks.

When I get hit out of cloak the damage is more like 8000 a shot. Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340280425' post='59326']
Yes xp debt, my first try i sorta fatfingered and hit the 2 instead of the 1, out just a little too long.

Also note in the second screenshot proof of the zero damage bug.

How I am doing this, devs: I am hitting F and 1 at the exact same time. I am firing and cloaking instantly. My cloak icon is back up before the second tick of my damage even registers. The mobs either dont even register me out of cloak, or by the time they have fired, i am back under cloak at take either 0 or like 200 damage from their attacks.

When I get hit out of cloak the damage is more like 8000 a shot.
[/quote]

Shield Inversion confirms it is still a 50% reduction, even though it certainly doesn't appear that way in practice. Can only assume more of the high damage hits are becoming 0's and more of the low damage hits are taking the 50% route.
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I'm only going to say this one more time folks. Leave the e-peen out of it. Discuss constructively or this topic stays closed next time.

It doesn't matter if you can solo it or not, like I said, the functionality that actually makes mobs more difficult doesn't work entirely right. This is the only reason you can solo "raid" mobs or for that reason mobs 60 and up as it is.
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Kyp I would suggest that the way buffs/abilities are applied be looked at. Like stated before, I am able to basically fire while cloaked if I hit cloak and fire at the exact same time. It doesnt always work, but it does enough that I have been able on numerous occasions to kill a raid class mob without even being shot at.

I was pretty sure the minimum recloak time was 3 seconds, I am back under within 1, and usually instantly.
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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1340332680' post='59368']
I have seen this on my own JD... When you first engage cloak it does take up tp 3 seconds, but after you are cloaked you can spam the cloak button and make yourself cloak so fast that no one even sees your name.
[/quote]
So you aren't Norm and it isn't Cheers...because I hear, that there there everyone knows your name and they're glad you came :)

Way back in the thread there was something about PS and shield/reactor powerdown and Jen shield /reactor cloak.

PS powerdown was way more "resisted" in live, than cloak. That wreckage graphic wasn't a mistake, you were mimicing a ship corpse (and when you failed you became the wreckage rather than mimic :)), if you had ANY DoT on the mob you were trying to fool, it was 100% fail rate. Not until max skill in the PD skill was it full recharge rates, ea step got you shield slow charge, then reactor, then full shield recharge, then reactor increased. So it was a trade off, you had to remain completely still, had a greater fail rate and for that you got shield AND reactor charge.

Compare the Jen cloak, they did get shield recharge (remember they cap out at L8 shields, consequently a lower recharge rate than a L9 would have, so it SEEMED to have a reduced charge rate to those used to L9 rather than L8), but since cloak actually used reactor, while cloaked their reactor slowly drained, higher tiers of cloak draining more per/sec. But they got to move about while cloaked and could enter it and not have a auto fail if they had a DoT on a mob. That was their trade off, no reactor recharge,but be able to move and not have such a high fail rate.

Also back to the OP, PW live when they tested shield sap (it wasn't in at live start, it came in later when PS repulsor, JE enviroshield and all the extra 1 up skills came in) they realized the potential for skill spamming and abuse ( I was one of those testers), but in reality it was rushed out to meet the other classes time tables on thier skills, so it DID come out with a long cooldown. But in response to the player base, and actually listening to what we were telling from test phase, it was retweeked several times ( one of which was a stealth tweek that got players pissed and a whole stealthnerf thread started :rolleyes: ). The FINAL working actually came back to what we were suggesting during test phase (if not the actual timers times we suggested), there were TWO timers, one on skill cooldown, and one for tapped mobs, this prevented multi PWs from chaindraining, and letting the PW have the option of attempting to prolong their fight time, by switching targets to syphon off other present mobs when their skill cooldown fell off.

This presented several new and different combat strategies that were very intreging, like when to use or not shield AoE levels....when to take on 1 or more mobs..when to switch what you were doing in spawn points if other players were tapping out what you might need..etc.

Got to say I agree with the MODs, keep it civil, this crud about one class is a noskill-needed-class and this other class is a talent -only-class is hog wash, especially from those who don't play one or the other, EVERY class has subtlties to them.

Also down voting someone that is doing what we are suppost to do...namely TEST and then posting about the results is simply childish (I went and up voted them, so THERE !:)).

For those that cry for thread closings (this and other threads) um why? if the posters aren't flaming people (and if they are, close THEM ,not the thread), if the topic or the convo bothers you overmuch, don't read it, just like any T.V. program you don't wish to see, turn it off or change the channel, kindly don't limit MY entertainment choices to suit YOUR temperment please.

/off my soap box
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Had a thought as to a damage-after-cloaking model that might work. After the insta-cloak bug is fixed of course, and all the times and buffs are set. It's based on player movement affecting the accuracy of the shots already fired.

In practice:

During the cloaking process: 100% damage.

If you activate cloak and stay still, trusting to cloak to protect you, you will take full damage for everything fired at you before you cloak. I would favor the mob continuing to fire at that spot too, but I'm not sure the engine can do that.

If you activate cloak and move, you will take full damage for everything fired until cloak is complete, then you will take damage that scales down to 0 over the time you are moving. Say two seconds worth as a starting point.

This system rewards skill in positioning for firing, skill in timing the activation of the cloak, and movement to new positions instead of just sitting there waiting for the mob to turn away again (lazy play).
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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1340919875' post='59761']
Had a thought as to a damage-after-cloaking model that might work. After the insta-cloak bug is fixed of course, and all the times and buffs are set. It's based on player movement affecting the accuracy of the shots already fired.

In practice:

During the cloaking process: 100% damage.

If you activate cloak and stay still, trusting to cloak to protect you, you will take full damage for everything fired at you before you cloak. I would favor the mob continuing to fire at that spot too, but I'm not sure the engine can do that.[/quote]


One thing I would like to see adjusted on the mobs, is their reaction time to reacquire the target (me). Currently mobs can instantly obtain a lock on the player and fire their weapons, as soon as the cloaked ship uncloaks. If you look at it from the mobs point of view, it is happily firing away at it's target - then bam - the target is gone. However it still maintains a target lock on the cloaked ship somehow, and as soon as the target becomes visible once again, it continues firing as tho nothing had happened. In an ideal situation, it would take a couple of seconds to reacquire a lock on the target and begin firing again.

This would be most helpful to a Jenquai's tactic of cloaking, thrusting into the mob's blind spot on their six (unless they have missiles), and using a Directional Teleport (3 sec powerup) away from the mob, to be able to recast PSI, use yet another fold space for more distance, or let their shield or reactor recharge. Currently trying this tactic to avoid losing even more hull, still allows for mobs to instantly fire and even tho the JD successfully folded 6.5k away, (still within range of most weapons so yes fold space should be far enough that it takes the JD out of weapons range at least for a couple seconds while the mob closes the gap), and perhaps even successfully cloaked again, the ordinance is still on its way and will still do damage. Since the mob has fired before the fold space or cloak has completed its cycle, there would be no damage mitigation.

Watch a Jenquai cloak in front of you, then try to guess where he will reappear. How long do you think it would take for a player (especially with projectiles or beams) to cycle to the target and spin around to line up again to fire?

And speaking of Cloak issues - Group Cloak (cloak skill 7) should never supercede any other cloak abilities. A cloaked JD in a group with a JE using group cloak, will have his cloak deactivated when the JE uncloaks. As well the length of time for Stealth Strike is 2 seconds longer for a JE than it is for a JD. This is because the JE has Cloak 7 and the JD only has Cloak 5. The extra 2 skill points should not add more time to combat cloak's stealth strike time, but only enable the Group Stealth and Group Cloak abilities.
Also the Improved Cloaking buff, like that of the Ghost's Edge beam, should double the Stealth Strike time, but this buff is currently broken or turned off.
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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1340932958' post='59774']
One thing I would like to see adjusted on the mobs, is their reaction time to reacquire the target (me). Currently mobs can instantly obtain a lock on the player and fire their weapons, as soon as the cloaked ship uncloaks. If you look at it from the mobs point of view, it is happily firing away at it's target - then bam - the target is gone. However it still maintains a target lock on the cloaked ship somehow, and as soon as the target becomes visible once again, it continues firing as tho nothing had happened. In an ideal situation, it would take a couple of seconds to reacquire a lock on the target and begin firing again.

This would be most helpful to a Jenquai's tactic of cloaking, thrusting into the mob's blind spot on their six (unless they have missiles), and using a Directional Teleport (3 sec powerup) away from the mob, to be able to recast PSI, use yet another fold space for more distance, or let their shield or reactor recharge. Currently trying this tactic to avoid losing even more hull, still allows for mobs to instantly fire and even tho the JD successfully folded 6.5k away, (still within range of most weapons so yes fold space should be far enough that it takes the JD out of weapons range at least for a couple seconds while the mob closes the gap), and perhaps even successfully cloaked again, the ordinance is still on its way and will still do damage. Since the mob has fired before the fold space or cloak has completed its cycle, there would be no damage mitigation.

Watch a Jenquai cloak in front of you, then try to guess where he will reappear. How long do you think it would take for a player (especially with projectiles or beams) to cycle to the target and spin around to line up again to fire?

And speaking of Cloak issues - Group Cloak (cloak skill 7) should never supercede any other cloak abilities. A cloaked JD in a group with a JE using group cloak, will have his cloak deactivated when the JE uncloaks. As well the length of time for Stealth Strike is 2 seconds longer for a JE than it is for a JD. This is because the JE has Cloak 7 and the JD only has Cloak 5. The extra 2 skill points should not add more time to combat cloak's stealth strike time, but only enable the Group Stealth and Group Cloak abilities.
Also the Improved Cloaking buff, like that of the Ghost's Edge beam, should double the Stealth Strike time, but this buff is currently broken or turned off.
[/quote]
All you have to do is target nearest player and keep cycling and you will target them as soon as they come out of cloak... Same as what you can do for when a mob spawns. Use to do that for hulks back in hulkfest and people were fighting for the next spawn. You can target instantly. If i can do it, why not the mobs. I really don't see why mobs should have a delayed reaction time. The thing is whether they can instantly turn around to fire on you. Beams and projectiles there would be some delay between when they target you turn around and fire. Missiles would be fired instantly of course.
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Well with critical targeting broken, cloak and group cloak broken, stealth strike broken, beam range damage broken, hull damage control broken, energy leech broken, scan range broken and follow broken... I have to agree.

It does tend to make playing a JD less than enjoyable and less powerful and versatile than it SHOULD be, but be that as it may, I like playing the class.

I feel like the Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail hopping around on one leg. <_<
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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1341240595' post='60005']
The JD is so broken that it's killing mobs well above its level... The only time the JD isn't fun to play and has trouble killing is at lower levels before it can use combat cloak.
[/quote]

This.



Honestly where is this "the jd's whole skillset is broken" coming from? Ninjette does just fine killing pretty much anything she targets. Heck she even killed Nesshix the Hand the other day without getting hit a single time while a couple other JDs were killing the Minions.

Seriously, JD is not broken (at least in no way negative or detrimental to the profession). I can see some skills needing some tweaking for specific playstyles, but believe me, its effective as it is. Too effective, as I have said before. Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1341240931' post='60007']
This.



Honestly where is this "the jd's whole skillset is broken" coming from? Ninjette does just fine killing pretty much anything she targets. Heck she even killed Nesshix the Hand the other day without getting hit a single time while a couple other JDs were killing the Minions.

Seriously, JD is not broken (at least in no way negative or detrimental to the profession). I can see some skills needing some tweaking for specific playstyles, but believe me, its effective as it is. Too effective, as I have said before.
[/quote]
Where is it coming from?
[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1341212192' post='59994']
Well with critical targeting broken, cloak and group cloak broken, stealth strike broken, beam range damage broken, hull damage control broken, energy leech broken, scan range broken and follow broken... I have to agree.

It does tend to make playing a JD less than enjoyable and less powerful and versatile than it SHOULD be, but be that as it may, I like playing the class.

I feel like the Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail hopping around on one leg. <_<
[/quote]
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Yeah I as asking Algeron actually. I dont see how JD is broken at all. I mean sure theres some bugs and so on, but JD is so effective by itself I cant believe someone is claiming its killing the fun factor. o.o
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Seriously? It's like talking to a wall with some of you...

Take away the instant cloak bug and see what's left. I just mentioned a handful of thing that are wrong with broken skills and you say there is nothing wrong with the class? Your JD is 145 how could you possibly have maxxed out all of your skills?


[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1341242184' post='60011']
Yeah I as asking Algeron actually. I dont see how JD is broken at all. I mean sure theres some bugs and so on, but JD is so effective by itself I cant believe someone is claiming its killing the fun factor. o.o
[/quote]

Which is it? The JD isn't broken at all or it is broken? It's effective only in the sense that it uses one broken skill to achieve what it does. I would LOVE to have the instant cloak bug fixed, I really would, then part-time JD's would see that everything else associated with the class needs to be worked on as well.

Are you racist? Do you not want to see all the skills work for everyone and not just your class? I don't even play a Progen but if there was a huge problem with the race I would be one of the first in line to help try and fix it. :wacko:
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I actually was able to repro the insta-cloak bug and the 'zero damage once cloaked' bug very easily with my JE on CL 53 voltoi bosses. Even with two second cloak activation Jen need to be taking damage....which they just currently are not....unless they mis-time these exploits.

Has anyone bugged these two issues, which are not JD specific but Jen specific, in the Bug tracker?
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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1341257612' post='60028']
All the skills I have used on the JD seem to work as intended other then Energy Leach... I really don't see it as being broken.
[/quote]

Don't play the class much? Part time JD's LOL :huh:[list]
[*]I did a test with max beam range. Should be a random amount of damage reduction of up to 50% at max range - however this random damage is applied at any range - including the sweet spot less than 2k away. At that range we should have full beam damage.
[/list][list]
[*]I did a test with Stealth Strike and the Improved cloak buff. Does your JD's Stealth Strike last longer than 5 seconds with the buff? Mine sure don't.
[/list][list]
[*]Critical Targeting on devices and weapons has been turned off for months. You get the full benefit of Crit Targeting on your JD? Mine doesn't.
[/list][list]
[*]HDC buff on equipment has been turned off for months. Does your JD get the benefit of HDC? Mine doesn't either and that's kind of important to have in some situations don't you think? Oh I am one of the JD with less Hull than they should have.
[/list][list]
[*]When you cast Summon Friend while they are at warp, does the Friend stop in front of you like they should or keep warping? People I summon keep on truckin.
[/list][list]
[*]When you auto follow a mob at close range like a JD should - your beams are always in line with the mob or are you forever trying to get behind the mob. Try Oni and tell me it works just fine.
[/list][list]
[*]Directional Teleport and Area teleport do exactly the same thing if you are group leader. How is that working as intended?
[/list][list]
[*]And yes Energy Leech is busted as well. I hope this isn't the only thing you have tested on your JD before coming in here and telling me what's what.
[/list]

Granted some of the broken skills on the JD are related to some other issue, like Mob AI or buffs not being turned on, but none of the skills I have mentioned are working as intended. But I am done trying to explain this to progens who could care less about the class.
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