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Ryle

The Combat Cloak Problem

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If you want to shoot backwards with a Progen toon, you have to equip MLs. Phorlaug was talking specifically about ML use, something that all Terrans & Progen can do, though for a Terran it makes more sense, in the context of the JT possibly trading her secondary weapon of PLs for MLs. (JW being the only Jenquai that can currently use MLs)

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1339803705' post='59001']
If you want to shoot backwards with a Progen toon, you have to equip MLs.
[/quote]

Cross the streams... *eyebrow thing*

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339808932' post='59013']
Cross the streams... *eyebrow thing*
[/quote]

I agree that most Progen would tend to not use MLs since they don't get them to L9 and the range increase in that case is probably not worth the damage reduction.

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339801651' post='59000']
I wasnt aware that two classes of progen could shoot backwards. Id be quite curious to see this in action or how to duplicate it, phorlaug. Ryle cant, Khan cant, only shoots forward. (mighta been a typo on your part but you said both races, figure that to mean terrans and progen)


If you mean shield nova for the progen, realize that thing does the dps of like one level 7 beam with a range about the same as a beam, at its max level.
[/quote]

PW and PS get to shoot backwards if they Equip missiles.
But I see Terrell answered that.

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Well this might be late to add to this conversation, but unless cloak takes you out of phase with normal space time, if you are fired upon you will get hit no matter what unless you were moving while you cloak... Which in most cases you are following the mob so you aren't moving away in any other direction. I don't know if you see where I am going with this. Half damage maybe, no damage I don't see how that's possible. Maybe I am reading too much into things.

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339813187' post='59019']
PW and PS get to shoot backwards if they Equip missiles.
But I see Terrell answered that.
[/quote]
Progens is the only race that gets all three weapons types... Still would never use missiles on any of them.

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JD's can also use all three weapon types.

One other thing I would like to point out with cloak and damage mitigation. While I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to be able to not take any damage or half damage due to cloaking, the mechanics are still not working correctly even on cloak damage reduction. There have been many times when I have cloaked (have had the cloak icon in my buff window, not just in the process of cloaking) and I will watch incoming projectiles and missiles as they hit my ship the first volley will register as zero damage, but the volley just behind that one will register damage.

The one thing I would really like to see looked at, is when I am am coming out of cloak, the mobs in the area can INSTANTY see I have decloaked - even if I have moved from the position they last saw me. I feel there needs to be a minimum acquisition of target time by the mob of at least 2 secs. They should have to search and lock on once again before they can any weapons. Cloaking does NOT clear the mobs target and it should in my view. Again this goes more to Mob AI than fixing or tweaking cloak as the solution. Only mobs with the See Cloaked ability should be able to instantly lock on and fire.

As well a minimum relock time is needed to recast a PSI shield for a JD. Currently recasting PSI is a waste of time when fighting mobs that use Missiles or Projectiles. it takes 6 seconds for a Psionic Invulnerability to be cast - and in the meantime all that ordinance is on route, more than enough damage to instantly wipe out the PSI shield just cast. JD are forced to cast PSI once at the start of the fight. A technique once used by JD's to recast PSI shield to coincide with failing of current shield is taken away.
I rarely use PSI shield on lower level mobs, and use it mostly for raid mobs. I have suggested this before but perhaps the damage absorption could be doubled. Currenty the max amount of damage absorption is about 40k without deflects. Even doubling the amount of absorption to 80k will only give the JD 2 or 3 more seconds to recast PSI or to fold space out of danger. It is by no means a God mode shield and will only protect the JD for 2 or 3 seconds against a lvl 60 raid mob, so there would be no spamming of psi shield to protect JD with PSi spamming indefinitely. PSi should at least be strong enough to protect the JD long enough to use other skills.

Sorry I think I almost hijacked this thread - but it had to be said. I will post more on PSI inadequacies in another thread.

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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1339748233' post='58963']
So also is the cloaked problem, they didn't see the missles/bullets when they were REALLY fired, the graphics is lagging it back, you want them to know, you wave at them, the bullets are on the way, OMG CLOAK! (jump)

At present, the cloaking is ignoring reality, they are getting a repreave from the cement truck, since they didn't see it, it doesn't exist. Would logic REALLY dictate that? If thats the way it's to be, then I want blinders on all my toons, they didn't see it, it didn't happen, lalalalala nope there is NO damage! I didn't see it, so the game can't have me damaged. :)

[/quote]

I don't think your taking a few things into concideration.
This is dependent on the NPC and NPC levels.
Look at your ship equipment.
At the top center your see "Ship stats"
I'm not going to go through the list, so I'll just focus on the two important ones that I feel pertain to this disscussion.
Missile Defence and Turn rate.

These two statistics take into account your ability to Dodge ( % ) Incoming damage, when your not cloaked.
Much the same way that if your shooting at a NPC that much higher level than you, Your Beams, Missiles and Projectiles go sailing off into all direction and not hitting the NPC. You all have seen this at one time or another.

When you are cloaked The same principles apply. The game machanics takes into account your Over all Level, your Cloak level, any items that Improve Cloak, and the Level of the NPC your defending against and The speed at which you ingage cloak.
Being A coder Got to SUK :)

And lets not forget Ship Speed (not Warp), Ship signature and any items that improve them.
All of this is taken into account and the outcome is the amount of damage dealt if any (Hits).

I'm not sure what the formula is or how its caluclated but I'll take a stab at it.
My ships stats on Turn rate and Missile Defence are Pretty low it could explain why I have not been able to duplicate what other JDs have been able to do.
OMG, I just relized I don't have an Improved Cloak item either. Some Jenquai I am, Terrell ?

Turn Rate............150=15%
Missile Defence.....10= 1%
Cloak...........................25% 3 seconds
Signature............0.1k=25%
Speed..................619= 4%

15+1+25+25+4= 70%
So there is a 70% chance that I will be missed or 70% of incoming Damage OR
35% hit chance and 35% Damage while cloaking. How ever the DEVs have figured it.

My Stats I admit are low, I will experiment with them.

If an NPC has see cloak.
70%Stats -100% See Cloak = One dead Soloing Jenquai :lol:
These are just my numbers, Some Jenquai's are probally higher, [u]so theoretically you could get your numbers higher and avoid or counteract "See Cloak".[/u]

Good point [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/user/22038-algaron/"][color=#f2f2f2]Algaron[/color][/url] ! About NPC Re-target..
And About the Psi-shield IMO with the Psi shield and My L8 shield they should equal the average L9 Terran and Progen shield.

Hey Thanks Ryle, Mattsacre, You may of just helped us to Be better Jenquai with this topic. :P

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339820411' post='59026']
I don't think your taking a few things into concideration.
This is dependent on the NPC and NPC levels.
Look at your ship equipment.
At the top center your see "Ship stats"
I'm not going to go through the list, so I'll just focus on the two important ones that I feel pertain to this disscussion.
Missile Defence and Turn rate.

[/quote]
Aside from the chance provided by cloak and afterburner, mob shots currently cannot miss. It is a part of why cloak allowing it is so powerful, because mobs dps is based on every single shot always hitting. If those stats were taken into account, and mobs had less than 100% accuracy, and mob DPS was increased to compensate, and cloaking just lowered their accuracy slightly, it wouldn't be such a problem.

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339819590' post='59025']
JD's can also use all three weapon types.

One other thing I would like to point out with cloak and damage mitigation. While I also think that it is a bit of a stretch to be able to not take any damage or half damage due to cloaking, the mechanics are still not working correctly even on cloak damage reduction. There have been many times when I have cloaked (have had the cloak icon in my buff window, not just in the process of cloaking) and I will watch incoming projectiles and missiles as they hit my ship the first volley will register as zero damage, but the volley just behind that one will register damage.

The one thing I would really like to see looked at, is when I am am coming out of cloak, the mobs in the area can INSTANTY see I have decloaked - even if I have moved from the position they last saw me. I feel there needs to be a minimum acquisition of target time by the mob of at least 2 secs. They should have to search and lock on once again before they can any weapons. Cloaking does NOT clear the mobs target and it should in my view. Again this goes more to Mob AI than fixing or tweaking cloak as the solution. Only mobs with the See Cloaked ability should be able to instantly lock on and fire.

As well a minimum relock time is needed to recast a PSI shield for a JD. Currently recasting PSI is a waste of time when fighting mobs that use Missiles or Projectiles. it takes 6 seconds for a Psionic Invulnerability to be cast - and in the meantime all that ordinance is on route, more than enough damage to instantly wipe out the PSI shield just cast. JD are forced to cast PSI once at the start of the fight. A technique once used by JD's to recast PSI shield to coincide with failing of current shield is taken away.
I rarely use PSI shield on lower level mobs, and use it mostly for raid mobs. I have suggested this before but perhaps the damage absorption could be doubled. Currenty the max amount of damage absorption is about 40k without deflects. Even doubling the amount of absorption to 80k will only give the JD 2 or 3 more seconds to recast PSI or to fold space out of danger. It is by no means a God mode shield and will only protect the JD for 2 or 3 seconds against a lvl 60 raid mob, so there would be no spamming of psi shield to protect JD with PSi spamming indefinitely. PSi should at least be strong enough to protect the JD long enough to use other skills.

Sorry I think I almost hijacked this thread - but it had to be said. I will post more on PSI inadequacies in another thread.
[/quote]
Really 2 seconds to react? Giving an already quick cloaking JD more time to cloak before they fire? I get what your saying, but 2 seconds is a bit much. Also double the Psi-shield absorbtion is a lot too. That's the entire JD's shield doubled. Granted without deflects.

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I was talking abut when the cloak was fixed and not broken like it is now. It will take 3 seconds minimum to cloak like it should in the first place. So there won't be a 'quick-cloaking' JD it will be a normal cloaking JD. I know you understand what I was on about with the 2 second thing, and 2 seconds is hardly an eternity. What is that - maybe one more shot from my JD or half the time it would take me to recast cloak, or 1/3 the time it would take to put up a PSI? I didnt think it was unreasonable amount of time, and certainly not a game changer. You must agree that instant re targeting of a ship just coming out of cloak is a bit much. No?

It would allow JD to use the class more efficiently. And as for the PSI shield - well again doubling the amount of damage absorption is certainly not a game changer, but would again allow the JD to be able to use it more than once during a raid. Psi shield should at least be strong enough to withstand 2 or 3 seconds of damage from just 1 raid mob. Currently PSI in a raid is more just for show than actually being a skill to be used. It fails in less time than it takes to cast it. Consider Shield Sap, a PW is usually able to hang in a fight long enough for the cool down timer to end, and to recast it. Granted Shield Sap isn't the same as PSI shield, but Energy Leech is and that skill is currently busted as well for a JD.

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339822849' post='59029']
I was talking abut when the cloak was fixed and not broken like it is now. It will take 3 seconds minimum to cloak like it should in the first place. So there won't be a 'quick-cloaking' JD it will be a normal cloaking JD. I know you understand what I was on about with the 2 second thing, and 2 seconds is hardly an eternity. What is that - maybe one more shot from my JD or half the time it would take me to recast cloak, or 1/3 the time it would take to put up a PSI? I didnt think it was unreasonable amount of time, and certainly not a game changer. You must agree that instant re targeting of a ship just coming out of cloak is a bit much. No?

It would allow JD to use the class more efficiently. And as for the PSI shield - well again doubling the amount of damage absorption is certainly not a game changer, but would again allow the JD to be able to use it more than once during a raid. Psi shield should at least be strong enough to withstand 2 or 3 seconds of damage from just 1 raid mob. Currently PSI in a raid is more just for show than actually being a skill to be used. It fails in less time than it takes to cast it. Consider Shield Sap, a PW is usually able to hang in a fight long enough for the cool down timer to end, and to recast it. Granted Shield Sap isn't the same as PSI shield, but Energy Leech is and that skill is currently busted as well for a JD.
[/quote]
I can instantly target a mob when it spawns... Why can't it instantly target me when i decloak?
Also a PW in a raid can't hang in a fight long enough for its cooldown timer to end... I know I play a PW. As for the Psi shield consider before buffs a JD's shield cap is around 50k. 80k absorbstion is very significant. Even 40k is a good deal of damage unless your trying to tank something. Which as a JD you just don't do. Edited by Sleven.

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Bleh people are still talking about this crap? lol Geez guys.... If we had posts about this for new content maybe we'd have it by now instead of all this talk about "fixing" cloak, which isn't going to matter much once mobs can see cloak. As far as I can tell its not what players are doing, its what the mobs are not doing to stop the players. Also, since this is pre-alpha I don't think this topic deserved six pages hahaha, so yeah, just gonna kick back and keep laughing, theres enough material here for a full 5 minute set at any open mic.
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[quote name='Drained' timestamp='1339898498' post='59054']
Bleh people are still talking about this crap? lol Geez guys.... If we had posts about this for new content maybe we'd have it by now instead of all this talk about "fixing" cloak, which isn't going to matter much once mobs can see cloak. As far as I can tell its not what players are doing, its what the mobs are not doing to stop the players. Also, since this is pre-alpha I don't think this topic deserved six pages hahaha, so yeah, just gonna kick back and keep laughing, theres enough material here for a full 5 minute set at any open mic.
[/quote]


More content would be nice, I've been a bit bored in game as well. Wonders aloud about the next patch, and what content is involved.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1339772281' post='58976']
Actually if you look above, I did the exact same thing at CL10 with a JE. And it was wrong, I should not have been able to sit in the middle of 6 CL15 mobs and kill them one by one just by cloaking to avoid the damage that had already been fired at me.
[/quote]

From my experiences with "high" level content I take/took damage if the mob fired right before cloaked even if the mob was some distance away. It didn't matter if I was cloaked by the time the missile/beam/projectile hit me. This was/is especially true of the drones up at 'Troller nav in BBW. Sure....I saw zeros at times which reflected the fact I sustained no damage. However, for the most part I took damage whenever I uncloaked.

As for GoBB, there are no second chances...screw up and you are dead....period. This mob hit's like the bosses did back in "live". No offense, but I don't think your little cl 15 mobs are a fair comparison to raid bosses like the Controller and GoBB for instance. As for what you did with your JE in regard to killing 6 cl 15's...this was possible back in live if you knew what you were doing..regardless of damage received. Even then, jenpies were able to kill above their cl....if the individual in question knew what he was doing.

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[quote name='Mynd' timestamp='1339900951' post='59056']
From my experiences with "high" level content I take/took damage if the mob fired right before cloaked even if the mob was some distance away. It didn't matter if I was cloaked by the time the missile/beam/projectile hit me. This was/is especially true of the drones up at 'Troller nav in BBW. Sure....I saw zeros at times which reflected the fact I sustained no damage. However, for the most part I took damage whenever I uncloaked.

As for GoBB, there are no second chances...screw up and you are dead....period. This mob hit's like the bosses did back in "live". No offense, but I don't think your little cl 15 mobs are a fair comparison to raid bosses like the Controller and GoBB for instance. As for what you did with your JE in regard to killing 6 cl 15's...this was possible back in live if you knew what you were doing..regardless of damage received. Even then, jenpies were able to kill above their cl....if the individual in question knew what he was doing.
[/quote]

It's the exact same mechanic in action. It's not a comparison of any kind, it's a report that the same thing is affecting gameplay outside of raids. Was I not clear enough about that?

And if one raid instance is causing a major mechanic to bend around it to the detriment of the rest of the game, fix the raid so you can straighten out the mechanic, don't bend the mechanic even more. The entire rest of the game is more important than the last 1%, right?

And of course skill matters to the outcome of things. But my point was this effect allowed me to win without any skill whatsoever. I just did the standard CC and shoot cycle while on follow, in the middle of 6 higher CL mobs. Almost exactly what the JD tactic is, only with even less skill. I didn't even bother to circle behind, or wait for them to turn away.

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My JD has level 8 beams, shields, TenShao hull, a Martyrs Heart, and CC. I just spent about an hour in cooper killing every boss, including Kesash and Desash. At times I was mobbed by like 6-8 other fish that mass aggroed, yet somehow I was able to snipe all what 5 bosses or so without going under half shields. Didnt even bother summoning or anything fancy other than waiting for them to turn before id hit fire again. Zero difficulty. Cruise control with follow and timing my firings when the mob turns. The only time things got hairy was when I got grav linked and fell out of range of Desash long enough for him to fully recharge shields. I was never under any risk of dying tho. Not even close.

Im real tempted to head out to antares and solo the voltoi bosses, just to see if I can at cl 44. Sure Khizz has what 1 mil shields, but that only means itll take 3 times longer than Desash.

I dunno, should this be possible? Im pretty much done arguing, I know full well when I get to 150 ill be one of those people able to solo raids, I can pretty much smell it already. When I am on Ninjette I feel pretty much invinceable and able to kill anything (the only reason I havent tried higher class mobs like raids is cause i dont want to take 20 hours to do it with 4 level 8 beams)

I guess my only real point is does the JD really need to be this powerful? Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339921702' post='59063']

I guess my only real point is does the JD really need to be this powerful?
[/quote]

YES,
Using the right gear and the right tactic all three warrior IMO should be closely matched in combat.

The combat tactics will be completely different, but useing all of their skills and Items that each Warrior has, Yes
The PW should come out ahead most of the time with the right Equipment if he doesn't make a mistake.

I Don't want to ask if a PW, TT, JS or a PP can help me kill Khixx or Desash, Do You?
Maybe The Jenquai will start earning some respect !
Maybe then we'll stop hearing poor Little Jenpy's with their tin Hulls and Pathetic L8 shields, Dorito's any one?

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Actually, the JD should be able to slightly out dps a PW or TW.
If the JD is playing at the top of their game, using Combat Cloak every shot, & top equipment, they usually have slightly higher DPS.
But this is only the case for exceptional JDs, who know how to play the class.

[b]However, this tactic isnt recommended because the JD will then pull the Bosses agro off the PW/TW, and be killed.[/b]
This used to happen to me alot in Live. I would get trigger happy, and pull the bosses wrath.
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Ive got no problem with higher DPS, but CC being so instantly recastable makes a JD even tougher than a PW. Seriously it does.

You gotta give one or the other. As it stands now JD is dishing the highest DPS with the least amount of risk when played right.

Ive tested it myself, its so OP is unbelievable.

Sure my PW can kill most bosses, but takes a heck of a lot more of a beating, and if I get swarmed on it by mobs, i will normally have to warp out and start over.

JD just cloaks. Waits 3 seconds, shoots, etc.

I dont think people are seeing what I am trying to show them, or maybe they just dont care that the JD is literally god mode.


And no Phorlaug it does not need to be as powerful as it is. Its so powerful it can kill GoBB solo. No other profession would last 10 seconds. Edited by Ryle

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I got to take a little bit of exception to this claim of skill, btw.

There is no "skill" involved in playing a JD in CC godmode. I wasnt even trying. Like... i was on autofollow and just waiting for the mob to turn, and then spamming a quick fire and recloak. Every time back under cloak before the thing could even shoot me (sometimes got hit by missiles for relatively negligible damage, like seriously 1200 or less at a time, and tons of 0's)

Where is the "skill" in that. Its like 2 button easy mode.

Ive played a lot of MMOs and games in general in my day, and I have never seen a class so blatantly imbalanced in my life. You take anyone with even an iota of understanding how the skills can be spammed and manipulated, and youre basically handing an instant "i can kill anything without any risk whatsoever button" to them.

Seriously I dont even know anymore. But hey, maybe development will see the imbalance and sort out a way to not destroy the JDs ability to fight, but at least make it killable outside of "error." Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339943330' post='59071']
YES,
Using the right gear and the right tactic all three warrior IMO should be closely matched in combat.

The combat tactics will be completely different, but useing all of their skills and Items that each Warrior has, Yes
The PW should come out ahead most of the time with the right Equipment if he doesn't make a mistake.

I Don't want to ask if a PW, TT, JS or a PP can help me kill Khixx or Desash, Do You?
Maybe The Jenquai will start earning some respect !
Maybe then we'll stop hearing poor Little Jenpy's with their tin Hulls and Pathetic L8 shields, Dorito's any one?
[/quote]

The flaw in this is that I promise you Ninjette will never be a dorito, ever, so long as I never make a mistake or have a lagspike. It is impossible to lose vs this AI with CC. That is the problem.

Killing desash (cl56 boss) and cl 58/60 voltoi.... AT COMBAT LEVEL 44 (4 level 8 beams, LOL) and level 8 shields???? Yeah try doing that with a PW, see what happens when all them mobs swarm you and you cant chug enough DPS vs reactor drain. (trust me, a pw with level 8pls vs a cl60 wisp youre going to be hulled out before you do enough damage to kill it, due to sap being on a 45 second timer now. Ryle at max still gets pretty dang low on the shieldbar with 109 turbo and uber capped weapons)

This isnt even a maxed JD here. Thats my point. At the time my JD had tenny hull and level 8 weapons/devices/reactor. Not even maxed bubble or crit target yet. And its soloing the strongest non raid bosses with absolute ease. Absolute ease.

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339955333' post='59080']
The flaw in this is that I promise you Ninjette will never be a dorito, ever, so long as I never make a mistake or have a lagspike. It is impossible to lose vs this AI with CC. That is the problem.

Killing desash (cl56 boss) and cl 58/60 voltoi.... AT COMBAT LEVEL 44 (4 level 8 beams, LOL) and level 8 shields???? Yeah try doing that with a PW, see what happens when all them mobs swarm you and you cant chug enough DPS vs reactor drain. (trust me, a pw with level 8pls vs a cl60 wisp youre going to be hulled out before you do enough damage to kill it, due to sap being on a 45 second timer now. Ryle at max still gets pretty dang low on the shieldbar with 109 turbo and uber capped weapons)

This isnt even a maxed JD here. Thats my point. At the time my JD had tenny hull and level 8 weapons/devices/reactor. Not even maxed bubble or crit target yet. And its soloing the strongest non raid bosses with absolute ease. Absolute ease.
[/quote]

I'm sure if you ask nicely someone will show you how to play a PW.
By then See cloak will be fixed and the Jenquai Will start dieing the way you want and then you'll have your work cut out for you holding aggro with your Mighty Hull and big L9 shields.
And the Jenqaui will sit back and wait for you to clear the NPC that have see cloak before they move in, the Game will revolve around the PW.

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339989837' post='59102']
I'm sure if you ask nicely someone will show you how to play a PW.
By then See cloak will be fixed and the Jenquai Will start dieing the way you want and then you'll have your work cut out for you holding aggro with your Mighty Hull and big L9 shields.
And the Jenqaui will sit back and wait for you to clear the NPC that have see cloak before they move in, the Game will revolve around the PW.
[/quote]

Bro, just sayin, i am one of the best pw players out there. Dont be saying i cant play my profession because its been gimped. Go solo GoBB with a pw. Show me how its done, expert.

Go ahead. Show me.

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the real issue of CC is that the CC-buff only should work with unmodified beam-weapons

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