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Ryle

The Combat Cloak Problem

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It's funny though when PW was seen as overpowered, they nerfed it to hell and back... JD is seen as overpowered, what happens to it has to be mulled over.
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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1339995845' post='59109']
It's funny though when PW was seen as overpowered, they nerfed it to hell and back... JD is seen as overpowered, what happens to it has to be mulled over.
[/quote]

Zing

Take away sap so the pws cant tank em - MUST NERFBAT TO 45 SECONDS NAOOOOO
Make the mobs shoot 9k so the tes cant kite em - MUST TAKE KITING OUT OF EQUATION IS UNFAIIIRRRR

Jenquai can cloak? OH WE CANT TOUCH THAT IT WOULD DESTROY OUR ABILITY TO FIGHT

Yes, I know it would. Welcome to what all PWs and TEs went through. Enjoy the ride. Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='Drained' timestamp='1339996159' post='59111']
I guarantee you won't be able to solo gobb at 150. In fact I think I'll have fun watching you die.
[/quote]

Youre awfully arrogant arent you lately?
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Somebody please lock this post! Its a peepee contest at this point lol.

Help!

Please somebody!
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No it's fine leave it as be, but give me the ability to inflict 100+k damage to every mob within 3k of targeted mob every 14 seconds back... I'll be perfectly happy.
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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1339996428' post='59114']
No it's fine leave it as be, but give me the ability to inflict 100+k damage to every mob within 3k of targeted mob every 14 seconds back... I'll be perfectly happy.
[/quote]

[img]http://e9.img.v4.skyrock.net/e91/titimaitre/pics/2419043167_1.gif[/img]
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As far as I can see, the problems are:

1. The lag-fix of 0 or half damage when fully cloaked, and it's usually 0 damage.

This should go away, and be compensated for by a faster minimum cloak time, say 2 seconds when modified by equipment. That way it's about skill in engaging cloak and wisdom in picking your situation.

But that's not enough of a fix, as it leaves the original problem that mobs shoot and shoot and shoot after you've already cloaked. I'm not sure why, but it looks like they have some sort of default shot amount that goes off. It's not like player weapons that deactivate immediately upon loss of target. So I would suggest that be adjusted to match the instant weapon deactivation that players have. That way there will only be shots fired until the moment of cloaking, plus lag. So trying to fight something head on or pick something out of a group will really be an exercise in foresight and timing, and that's the way it should be.

2. Solo mobs cannot turn fast enough to get a bead before you recloak, meaning you can solo any mob you have the reactor for.

I would suggest that after you've already hurt them and then cloaked, they stay at a state of alertness which lets them respond faster when you uncloak. They may also take actions like moving around in different directions like they're looking for you, or heading for friends at emergency speed as soon as you cloak (that's what I would do if someone shot me in the @ss and then went invisible) . That way you have a condition you can check, and hopefully you can do something with their behavior without changing stuff on every single mob.

Those are the least intrusive changes I can think of that would help with this problem.

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A thirty second delay would murder the JD class, unless we are giving much larger shields. but at the same time though being able to clock shoot cloak shoot isn't exactly right either. To balance things I would have to say a 10-15 second delay to the cloak wouldn't completely hurt the JD class, just make the JD class unable to take on GoBB or FB by itself. I am a JD, even I think solo'n GoBB and FB is a bit over the line.

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Yes... Yes... Let the hate flow through you... Strike your enemy down while he is weak!

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[quote name='Drained' timestamp='1339996294' post='59113']
Somebody please lock this post! Its a peepee contest at this point lol.

Help!

Please somebody!
[/quote]
+1
I agree,

[quote name='Dragonfury' timestamp='1339998745' post='59124']
A thirty second delay would murder the JD class, unless we are giving much larger shields. but at the same time though being able to clock shoot cloak shoot isn't exactly right either. To balance things I would have to say a 10-15 second delay to the cloak wouldn't completely hurt the JD class, just make the JD class unable to take on GoBB or FB by itself. I am a JD, even I think solo'n GoBB and FB is a bit over the line.
[/quote]

10 seconds? A lot can happen in 10 seconds with a class that has tin hulls, L8 shields, No Hull patch with their professions needing to be at close range to shoot and 1/3 of them can fire from any directions at long range. In 15 seconds with a in your face fight they won't have a chance, thats the PW. IMO

[u]I think No body is listening to the fact that Once See cloak is added to 1 or 2 of the NPC that fly in formation with Black Beard HE WILL NOT BE SOLOABLE. the same go's for the FISH Bowl bosses, Problem Solved with See Cloak and missiles! You have been told over and over again.[/u]



But I see that all you really want is your Shield Sap back.
[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1339996428' post='59114']
No it's fine leave it as be, but give me the ability to inflict 100+k damage to every mob within 3k of targeted mob every 14 seconds back... I'll be perfectly happy.
[/quote]

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339380842' post='58667']
Unnerf the PW then. Simple as.
[/quote]
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Seems like the JD is fine but the mobs are the problem. If the AI/damage output of raid mobs cannot handle a well geared JD then there is a problem....but its not with the JD skills or damage. People have posted previously that in Live a JD did a little more damage then PW/TE and in turn would get smacked by the mob....but that's not currently happening.

What if, at least for raids, the devs added a summon turret. If the raid boss fails to fire on a target for over 1 minute then asummon turret 'turns on' and summons the player into a group of gate turrets. You want to stop exploits. There you go.

Summoning, missiles, plasma damage, interrupting cloak, chem damage, see cloak, grav link and other debuffs sometimes made it a challenge for leveling JD's during Live. I think Ryle is correct in saying that right now its easy, playing as any Jen class, to avoid all this stuff but I don't think its necessarily because JD's are overpowered or their skills are broken. I think its because mob AI/skills are not working, not fully implemented, or not balanced. It might be worth it to make a list of mobs that JD's think are currently too easy and see if they are too easy for all classes or just the JD. Depending on the answer players could then propose ways to make mobs more difficult.
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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1340041695' post='59170']
+1
I agree,



10 seconds? A lot can happen in 10 seconds with a class that has tin hulls, L8 shields, No Hull patch with their professions needing to be at close range to shoot and 1/3 of them can fire from any directions at long range. In 15 seconds with a in your face fight they won't have a chance, thats the PW. IMO

[u]I think No body is listening to the fact that Once See cloak is added to 1 or 2 of the NPC that fly in formation with Black Beard HE WILL NOT BE SOLOABLE. the same go's for the FISH Bowl bosses, Problem Solved with See Cloak and missiles! You have been told over and over again.[/u]



But I see that all you really want is your Shield Sap back.
[/quote]
Was just trying to make a point... If PW had shield sap mechanics from 1 and a half years ago I could go in and decimate the FB. Is that fair? No, but look at it from the PW's point of view. Also a PW still couldn't rely on shield sap to keep them up then. GoBB boss group can strip a PW of its shields and hull in just a few seconds if it doesn't get constant heals.

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All I am saying is they didn't mind throwing the PW under the bus in the name of balance... The Jenquai have to be handled with kid gloves.

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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1340049356' post='59180']
All I am saying is they didn't mind throwing the PW under the bus in the name of balance... The Jenquai have to be handled with kid gloves.
[/quote]

We had the other extreme in parts of ST3 and ST4 with cloak. There was a time when any Jenquai who was cloaked was visible to any mob with higher CL, which made the mission to learn cloak for the JW nearly impossible. Also made mining for JEs much harder, since we tend to let our CL lag behind EL and TL as miners. Also given that cloak and the counter skill to cloak, Scan are Explore skills, it doesn't make sense to run a check based on the Jenquai's CL.

Another problem that cloak had a while back, was everything interrupts cloak. Both everything interrupts cloak, and nothing interrupts cloak are extremes that don't work. While cloak should be interruptable, it shouldn't be easy to interrupt. Not sure where that exact happy medium is, but most of the time, in most situations, cloak should work. (it's a key skill to how Jenquai are supposed to fight)

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No class is less or more important than the next.

The DEVs are working on not only creating, but also balancing game mechanics.

There are alot of useful opinions in this post, and will give the DEVs plenty to ponder.

Thanks for the feedback.

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Note that we haven't "balanced" yet. The fix put in for PW was not a balance measure but a measure meant to keep the PW from soloing everything in the game because of a broken skill that wasn't working like it was intended. That's called a stopgap.

I suspect when I do start the balancing process we're going to get a fair amount of hate, but all the same it will be happening.

I'm going to remind you all to keep this civil. Debate the merits of your classes or what changes you might do in our stead if you were a developer but [b]DO NOT [/b]insult each other or their gameplay, there's no reason for this and frankly it makes us stop looking at your discussions, generally.

Be constructive and good things will happen, don't and your thread will just end up locked.

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Well then Kyp to be completely fair, doesnt the JD need a stopgap then?

I mean you pretty much confirmed the reason for nerfing the PW was because of soloing everything in the game, and thats what the JD is doing now.

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I been thinking about this, and really adding a small delay to the cloak would be optimal. Now the delay does not even have to be a long one, a short one of like 3-5 seconds would be enough to keep us Jenpies for soloing everything. because it be just enough of a time to get our butts handed to us. Live for a short time had a 2-3 sec delay on cloak (it didnt last long as they were trying to keep JD's from solo'n big bosses) until they were able to come up with a premenant fix. at the same time a 3-5 second delay would not hurt us in the least, just we would have to adaopt a new fighting style is all. A JD still be able to solo all other mobs in game with considerable ease, I know this because I don't cloak right away, I wait for the 5 seconds of CC to run out before reclocking and I have no issue on fighting.

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[quote name='Dragonfury' timestamp='1340153502' post='59212']
I been thinking about this, and really adding a small delay to the cloak would be optimal. Now the delay does not even have to be a long one, a short one of like 3-5 seconds would be enough to keep us Jenpies for soloing everything. because it be just enough of a time to get our butts handed to us. Live for a short time had a 2-3 sec delay on cloak (it didnt last long as they were trying to keep JD's from solo'n big bosses) until they were able to come up with a premenant fix. at the same time a 3-5 second delay would not hurt us in the least, just we would have to adaopt a new fighting style is all. A JD still be able to solo all other mobs in game with considerable ease, I know this because I don't cloak right away, I wait for the 5 seconds of CC to run out before reclocking and I have no issue on fighting.
[/quote]

Ironically if that happens, the optimal fighting style would become yours. The only reason cloak/fire/cloak works is because of the very problem I am trying to get addressed here.

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Before I respond to that Ryle, let's make sure we're on the same page. With respect to your viewpoint, what is the "nerf" that we did to the PW? (I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing, first off)

Also, you can reset assured that when I start balancing, its gonna be everyone, every class. No one will be spared.

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Specifically the Shield Sap nerf about 9 months ago. The outcry was that the PW was doing massive damage to multiple mobs and chaining self heals to the point of being able to solo things it should not have been able to.

So, SS was put on a 45 second CD, eliminating the problem. PWs cannot do what they used to and JDs have stepped into that role of being the class with a skill that can be spammed to "god mode" basically. Edited by Ryle

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Ah, Yes. The "nerf". I thought that might be the one you were referring to:

As I said here when we had that discussion:

[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/5587-august-content-update-info/page__hl__%20shield%20%20sap%20%20nerf"]https://forum.enb-emu...20sap%20%20nerf[/url] (read all about it if you don't recall)

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20031212071710/http://www.earthandbeyond.ea.com/community/glimpse/glimpse02.11_25.jsp"]http://web.archive.o...pse02.11_25.jsp[/url] (original live link archived describing saps)

Defender's Energy Leech:
"[color=#FFFFFF][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]One thing to remember about this skill is that it has a two-minute residual effect. This means that once it has been activated on a target, the residual effect prevents the skill from being used on the target again for two minutes. (This includes different levels of the same skill. For example, a target hit by Render Energy cannot also be hit with Energy Drain until the residual effect from the Render Energy attack has worn off.) The residual effect begins as soon as the skill hits its target."[/size][/font][/color]

Explorer's Reactor Leech:
"[color=#FFFFFF][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]Note that all levels of Shield Leech also leave a two-minute residual effect, which means that once the skill is activated on a target, that target cannot be hit with the same skill by any player for two minutes."[/size][/font][/color]

Warrior's Shield Sap:
[color=#FFFFFF][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]"[/size][/font][/color][color=#FFFFFF][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][size=3]All levels of Shield Sap also have a two-minute residual effect. This means that once the skill is activated on a target, no one, including the original user, can activate the same skill on that target for two minutes. The two-minute timer starts as soon as the skill is first activated"[/size][/font][/color]

Now, I don't know if TB or Rolo actually reduced this at the moment because I haven't looked at the code for it in a while, but this goes to show you there SHOULD BE a 2 minute timer, where there is a 45 second timer now (I take it).
[font="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"][color="#ffffff"][size=3] [/size][/color][/font]
At no point did the original game developers intend for it to be used more often than that on the same target. Now, the Defender and the Explorer may not have yet had the same love applied, but you can bet their arse and yours its coming.

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Any Progen player answer this if you would please.
I would like to know How can an NPC Defend or combat against a Spamming Shield Sap? What can the DEVs do to stop this from happening? Instead of the 45 second cool down?

I remeber this for the JD a PW Now that I see it in B/W It may explain why Our current FBowls are not a 20 player raids.

[b][i]"One thing to remember about this skill is that it has a two-minute residual effect. This means that once it has been activated on a target, the residual effect prevents the skill from being used on the target again for two minutes. (This includes different levels of the same skill. For example, a target hit by Render Energy cannot also be hit with Energy Drain until the residual effect from the Render Energy attack has worn off.) The residual effect begins as soon as the skill hits its target."[/i][/b]

I seem to recall a call out asking players in a raid for the Levels of Energy Leech and Shield Sap, so the highest levels would be used.

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I can understand your frustration on the PW's aspect of the cooldown on the SS being extend and rework. It was needed at the time. I also understand the frustration of seeing JD's being able to solo raid bosses. What everyone else needs to understand is that. Every aspect of the game either it being balancing, skills, general game playing is still being worked. It takes time.

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