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Ryle

The Combat Cloak Problem

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LOL...think this through Phorlaug, even at current levels of earth bound tech, a missle traverses multiple kilometers/sec, a projectile (bullet) even more (its attained max velocity in the barrel, the missle is under constant thrust), so even at CURRENT earth bound standards (should be even better in the future) a missle or projectile can traverse the gap between the one firing and you,even if you had 10k beam range and was that far away, a missle/bullet traveling @ 3.5k/sec. could reach you before your 3 sec. cloak activated! (3.5k/sec x 3 = 10.5k)

The game is translating graphicly the missles/bullets course and it is actually "lagging" so called "reality". You hit cloak and you see missles/bullets comeing and you get cloaked before arrival? Pfft, its like a nuke bombs flash, if you are seeing the flash of a nuclear bomb, it is already to late, you have been RADIATED, the A,B,G, and X rays travel at/near light speeds as well as visual light.

When is the last time "saw" a bullet? The human eye can't see the speed of sound, and bullets travel faster than that. But what about "tracer bullets"? What you are seeing from tracer bullets are chemical/luminous after image trails, by the time you see the "trace" it has long since hit its target.

So to be "real" in a GAME, you shouldn't be able to cloak in the time it takes damage to leave its source and arrive to your location, be it beam, missle or projectile.

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339562526' post='58888']
A Cloaked ship only takes damage if they know where its at and has a target lock, Simply move to the side, missiles, Projectiles and Beams go sailing into the distance. Too dam logical for you too grasp ?

I don't see your logic in how a Missile, Projectile or a beam can hit an object when there is no target lock.
Thats like saying "Come and Find me [u]I'll be cloaked[/u], Shoot me"
A missile, PL and a Beam will MISS a target WHEN it Has Lost the Target.
But Then again A smart Progen Player and NPC would install a "SEE CLOAK" item and NONE of this would be an
issue!

The amount of "Increased Manuverability" installed increases the chance of NOT being hit or Critically ! Cloaked or Not!
There ! Another Brilliant Jenquai tactic!

Ok ok, lets do this, for every -1 second you get back for your Shield Sap, we give the Jenquai Defender -1 for their
Energy Leech. And the NPC AI gets fixed. Is that ok with you?

Oh, just un-nerf the PW so he stops his Whining, this is clearly not about the Jenquai Cloak and the NPC AI still not right.
He gos away for a month or two comes back see the "Emu population Declining" and hears the PW Shield Sap timer has changed.
[b] [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6990-emu-population-declining/"]Emu Population Declining?[/url][/b]
[/quote]

What do you mean i was gone, ive been back for 4 months. Check my post history. Ive been pretty regular since February again.

What is this fallacy about moving out of the way again? Terrans and Progens can move all they want and those projectiles and missiles from enemy mobs seek us out. So youre saying its ok that somehow a jenny can cloak, and not even move, and thats justification for taking zero damage?

I am honestly not sure if youre trolling me or actually trying to make sense, because if you believe that youve never played this game.

See cloak items do not work.

Increased maneuverability has no effect on crits. Ive never seen a difference on any toon or setup, it just makes you turn faster, the attacks still heat seek you.

Now as far as the Sap thing goes, since you LOVE to derail thread discussions talking about things out of context that have nothing to do with what is being said here (the copy pasted crap from the PvP thread has absolutely nothing to do with Raid mobs being soloed). If you want to talk about JDs in PvP we can take that to the PvP discussion thread and discuss see cloak or whatever else in that thread. This is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

By the way, EMU pop declining was authored by me, i didnt see it, i fricken wrote it after comparing numbers from a year ago to today.

You about done flaming me?

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Now, this is directed straight to anyone throwing a fit about nerfbats:

The Progen Warrior profession had one of their primary skills nerfed to a 45 second cooldown due to their ability at the time to solo end game content by repeatedly spamming the ability.

This being dubbed too powerful, there was much QQing and whining about it. The PW was nerfed.

Here we are 6-8 months later and we discover another profession, the JD, is now doing exactly what the PWs were doing (quite frankly doing it moreso than even the PWs were), soloing end game content not intended to be soloed the way it is.

So, logic states that if the PW was nerfed to prevent this from occurring, it would be reasonable to now nerf/fix the JD to prevent them from doing the same.

Anyone in this thread that doesnt agree with the last line can shove it, quite frankly. I wont sit here and take being called a whiner over what is actually a total double standard.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, in other words.

Youre not going to win an argument with me claiming "its a profession skill and good tactics" when you all cried to have a PW profession skill and tactic taken away. Edited by Ryle

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The idea of constant shield recharge for mobs is a good one for aleviating some of the playing field annoyances until the emu moves towards a more polished/balanced state.
Even for players it will give a reason to start using equipment with certain buffs that are neglected for now (eg. boost shield recharge)
Also the beam damage in live was relative to the distance from the mob...when this is implemented it will further alleviate Ryles concerns.
Dont know how easy or not is for the development team to code these 2 gameplay changes but i suggest they get moved towards the top of their to-do list.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339509372' post='58826']
Anyway to summarize this thread, the three best proposals I think the majority of people agreed on or suggested the most are as follows:

1. Fix the combat cloak damage immunity that Kenu brought up. Any attacks fired before cloaks engage that are enroute, should hit and do at least 1/2 if not full damage.

2. On Raid bosses or any MOB higher in combat level than the Jenquai, give the MOB the ability to see cloaked at least some of the time, roll a check every time the JD/JE recloaks or something. Possibly a base 5 percent per level difference per cloak. Like 20 percent chance at 4 level diff, 50 at 10 diff or something

3. Allow damage to shields to be counted towards chance to interrupt the skill cast.
[/quote]

I vote #1 as it works for all "attack" cloaking tactics. However, I think this restores the original problem for which these changes were made. I think it was about JEs trying to cloak to hide from a surprise mob attack or a popmob, or JE/JS trying to lose aggro in a group situation - the three second timer combined with the system response time let a lot of damage fired after cloak get applied, and this was messing up the gameplay.

Allow me to suggest a different correction for the original issue. Leave the cloak time from cloak skill the same, but reduce the minimum cloak time a bit, maybe to two seconds, maybe 1.5. In this model, all damage fired before cloak takes effect will hit for full points, but there's less time to cloak so less damage will be incoming. (Provided you have buffs or effects on that will reduce cloak time below 3 seconds. This also makes a lot of devices with cloak buffs useful again to a char with Combat Cloak).

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339566899' post='58893']
Now, this is directed straight to anyone throwing a fit about nerfbats:

The Progen Warrior profession had one of their primary skills nerfed to a 45 second cooldown due to their ability at the time to solo end game content by repeatedly spamming the ability.

This being dubbed too powerful, there was much QQing and whining about it. The PW was nerfed.

Here we are 6-8 months later and we discover another profession, the JD, is now doing exactly what the PWs were doing (quite frankly doing it moreso than even the PWs were), soloing end game content not intended to be soloed the way it is.

So, logic states that if the PW was nerfed to prevent this from occurring, it would be reasonable to now nerf/fix the JD to prevent them from doing the same.

Anyone in this thread that doesnt agree with the last line can shove it, quite frankly. I wont sit here and take being called a whiner over what is actually a total double standard.

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, in other words.

Youre not going to win an argument with me claiming "its a profession skill and good tactics" when you all cried to have a PW profession skill and tactic taken away.
[/quote]

Allow me to reinforce your point by adding this isn't just about JDs. As someone else said, it's an exploit that's unavoidable when using CC. So all of the Jenqs are automatically getting an exploit-level benefit just by properly using the CC skill.

For example, my CL11 JE was able to complete a mission against 6 higher level mobs. I sat right in the middle of them following my target while CCd, fired, and CCd again. Tons of shots would hit for 0 every time after I recloaked. I figure there was enough damage to have forced me off after 1 round and popped my shields completely after 2, but I was able to go 5-6 rounds until my target died, then fly off to recharge my shields and do it again.

This could definitely use a fix.

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Cloak shouldn't be God Mode, but it also shouldn't be less effective than it was in Live. There's a right place somewhere between what it is now, and some of the things being proposed. A chance for 50% damage for shots on the way, but some damage done, IMO is okay, same for full damage in those cases, as soon as mobs can no longer shoot out of their behinds.

We have to fight in close, especially if the range penalties on beams are implemented. In Live if you used beams beyond 50% range damage was reduced, and at 100% range beam damage was halved. I don't think that the nerf bat should be taken to cloak, beyond ending the God Mode to incoming damage.

On improved cloaking buffs, and Combat Cloak, those buffs should increase the Stealth Strike from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. Said buffs should also make it harder to be seen when an opponent has a "see cloaked" device. Not sure if it affected Scan 3 or higher on cloak detection.

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Ok lets say for a moment that the PW was Not nerfed, and the PW can spam shield sap every 6 seconds.

Tell us please how can the DEVs implement a Device or Combat tactic against a PW thats Spamming Shield Sap ? What should they have done?

Now Tell us how the DEVs can Implement a Device or Combat tactic against a Jenquai thats spamming Cloak? What can they Do?

I'd like to hear your answers, "Whats good for the goose is good for the Gander"

[u][i]Was nerfing the PW the right thing to do ? IDK, Maybe, Probably not[/i].[/u]
Could something of been done to prevent the PW from spamming Shield Sap, instead of changing the Shield Sap Timer. Yes

Is nerfing the JD and the Jenquai Race in its entirity the right thing to do? [b]Absolutely NOT [/b]!

Its all about MOB AI and what the DEVS can do to combat the players skills and Combat tactics.

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See cloak is still a Work in Progress™.
Once this is working, this entire discussion will change.

Players will no longer be able to solo raid bosses.
Jenquai will instead rely on other classes to keep the bosses distracted, while they fire from hiding places, as intended.
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[quote name='Darkk' timestamp='1339634181' post='58916']
See cloak is still a Work in Progress™.
Once this is working, this entire discussion will change.

Players will no longer be able to solo raid bosses.
Jenquai will instead rely on other classes to keep the bosses distracted, while they fire from hiding places, as intended.
[/quote]

When See Cloaked/Scan 3+ on mobs is implemented, how exactly will it work, and how common will it be outside of raids & V'rix? Will it always see through cloaks, or will it be a chance to do so? If a chance to do so is the case, will Improved cloaking, make it less likely to see a cloaked ship? Will the level of the buff matter, vs the level of the item or Scan skill? Will the Jenquai's EL relative to the CL of the mob matter for non raid mobs? If it's decided by a roll on the part of the cloak detecting mob, vs the cloaked ship, how frequently will this roll occur? If it's several times per second, it essentially would make Improved cloaking worthless, while if it's every 20 minutes, it would be way too long.

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Let us not forget that there are only a few JD's that can actually do these things. I can count on one hand the total number of JD's that I know of that can achieve these feats. These players are a minority, and this should be taken into account if there are plans to revamp (nerf) jenpie skills. I realize some things are broken, but it's simply not true that every maxed JD can solo high-end content. I saw Darkk's post where he said no one will be able to solo raid bosses....understood.

I just want to point that some players wind up being better than the average players of "said" game, and as a result are able to do some pretty amazing things. You see it in every game/mmo. Anyhow, that's just my two cents. ;)
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Maybe so Mynd, but the nerf cries cause of a few PWs... see where I go with that?

Your logic is solid, hell I know as well as anyone having been one of "those players" in SWG and so on. I just think its a bit too... hypocritical to have "fixed" one and not the other.

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Here is the thing I was alluding to before, some are saying "it should be half dmg" or "mitigate it somehow" or " its going to destroy a primary skill of all jenny". You are looking at it wrong.

The game is translating and broadcasting data in packets. You do action X, you sent packets of info to the server, the game enviroment responds to your input and sends bursts of data back, of which is translated by your system, either in graphics or sounds etc.

In the simplest terms: So when it shows a beam fired, graphicly its the easiest, draw a line from point a to point b, almost instantanious you know and see throught the bursts of packet data you have been hit or not and damage is apllied to mob and you.

Now compare things like missles and bullets: You fire your weapon, once again beam is easiest to draw, missles and bullets harder, it takes packets of info for EVERY bullet/missle in route, renders its colors, and tumble, and curving route, calculates RoF and time from A to B. So it APPEARS graphically that that incoming missle shouldn't hit you, or nanananaw you got cloaked befoer impact. But those packets back and forth gets a little lag time between them, and in reality, that bullet/missle should only have say 1 or 2 sec. flight time from A to B. It LOOKS like it takes 3 or 4 or 20 or 30 sec. for all those packets of data and dmg to arrive, but it REALLY has already arrived.

So those "changes that were made" were false presumtive, that was back when there was huge lag etc. When there was a huge cloud of bullets going in, your graphics would lag out and get all choppy, so the Jenny would get "lag death" with data packet transfers. They didn't "see the damage" but when they unfroze they were a smoking ruin. The damage was applied correctly, and their actions were applied in proper order. But mashing the button repeatedly resulted in nothing.

So for those, "half dmgers" and "mitigators" for my cloak guys/gals.....why? Full damage! It was fired...it had its travel time...it arrived before 3 sec., the game just rendered it slow! If your logic is to be followed, then lets slow the beams down, have the game draw the point A to point B and not apply the damage until the game is through rendering it graphicly to the intended target. If they are a cloaker, or get buffs in or shield charge, or pop a skill etc, have your beam have to cut through whatever they did, because hey, the game hadn't rendered it yet, so their skil goes first. Edited by Mattsacre

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Don't get pissed if I use this analogy, I'm not commenting on any handycapable etc. I would hope they made it and would try to save them if I could etc.

But lets say a deaf person was standing in front of a on coming cement truck. And you knew they were deaf, so you didn't bother yelling. So you waved at them to get their attention, maybe to sign to them, maybe just to point, give them a heads up..GET OUT OF THE WAY PLEASE...OMG YOUR GOING TO DIE...JUMP FOR IT! But htey are looking the other way, they aren't seeing you, you can't get to them in time....would physics change because you wished it so? You wished them no harm, you wanted them warned, but they didn't see it coming, and they didn't see you, they are dead.

So also is the cloaked problem, they didn't see the missles/bullets when they were REALLY fired, the graphics is lagging it back, you want them to know, you wave at them, the bullets are on the way, OMG CLOAK! (jump)

At present, the cloaking is ignoring reality, they are getting a repreave from the cement truck, since they didn't see it, it doesn't exist. Would logic REALLY dictate that? If thats the way it's to be, then I want blinders on all my toons, they didn't see it, it didn't happen, lalalalala nope there is NO damage! I didn't see it, so the game can't have me damaged. :)

Yes, yes I know a missle can travel kilometers in a couple of a sec. but I didn't SEE it, so I can't be wounded. Tell that to Al Queda taken out by a preditor drone, they didn't see it coming, so they resally didn't get croaked, they aren't really in hell for their murderous ways, it's REALLY paradise, yup bring on those virgins......

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[quote name='Darkk' timestamp='1339634181' post='58916']
See cloak is still a Work in Progress™.
Once this is working, this entire discussion will change.

Players will no longer be able to solo raid bosses.
Jenquai will instead rely on other classes to keep the bosses distracted, while they fire from hiding places, as intended.
[/quote]

Ok but as I and Will said, this affects any gameplay using Combat Cloak, and that's THE primary combat mechanic of the Jenqaui.

So this affects the gameplay of the entire Jenq race from a certain level up.

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[quote name='Mynd' timestamp='1339728797' post='58956']
Let us not forget that there are only a few JD's that can actually do these things. I can count on one hand the total number of JD's that I know of that can achieve these feats. These players are a minority, and this should be taken into account if there are plans to revamp (nerf) jenpie skills. I realize some things are broken, but it's simply not true that every maxed JD can solo high-end content. I saw Darkk's post where he said no one will be able to solo raid bosses....understood.

I just want to point that some players wind up being better than the average players of "said" game, and as a result are able to do some pretty amazing things. You see it in every game/mmo. Anyhow, that's just my two cents. ;)
[/quote]

Actually if you look above, I did the exact same thing at CL10 with a JE. And it was wrong, I should not have been able to sit in the middle of 6 CL15 mobs and kill them one by one just by cloaking to avoid the damage that had already been fired at me.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1339772044' post='58975']
Ok but as I and Will said, this affects any gameplay using Combat Cloak, and that's THE primary combat mechanic of the Jenqaui.

So this affects the gameplay of the entire Jenq race from a certain level up.
[/quote]

Nah, since its only affecting raid-class content (troller, blackbeard, fishbowl, maybe mordana and other mobs over the 55/60 limit) it wouldnt affect your standard hunting JD or mining JE killing a manes.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1339772281' post='58976']
Actually if you look above, I did the exact same thing at CL10 with a JE. And it required no skill, just cycling CC and shooting in the standard manner. It was obviously wrong, I should not have been able to sit in the middle of 6 CL15 mobs and kill them one by one just by cloaking to avoid the damage that had already been fired at me.
[/quote]

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339772295' post='58977']
Nah, since its only affecting raid-class content (troller, blackbeard, fishbowl, maybe mordana and other mobs over the 55/60 limit) it wouldnt affect your standard hunting JD or mining JE killing a manes.
[/quote]

No, as I said, it affects all combat cloak gameplay. Everyone using CC gets the 0 damage reduction.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1339772372' post='58978']
No, as I said, it affects all combat cloak gameplay. Everyone using CC gets the 0 damage reduction.
[/quote]

That part yea, that bug needs fixed. I thought Darkk was on about the see-cloak ability for raid class mobs (the original reason for this thread)

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Some should, in the major raids, but most shouldn't, IMO. There were also mobs in Grissom Planet, in the storm zones that were in the CL20-30 range (I forget their exact CL) that had the Scan skill. But other than V'rix, outside of raids mobs that could see cloaked were rare. I do think some mobs that could combat cloak, as orefield guardians would make sense too (said mobs would have to be at least CL25 if mobs EL and TL is equal to their CL. Combat cloak requiring EL25.). All explorers have the Scan skill, and I'd think most put points into Scan, so I don't think it should be an issue.

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There should be only a few that see cloak IN Raid mobs, so that they have to be dealt with first before the Jenquai
can do their thing. Much the same way that were suppose to Kill Black Beards Minions before killing Black beard.
It would be a new challenge to our raids.

To have every NPC in the game have See Cloak and Missiles, thats just not how a real live person would play
their class, not every Jenquai uses Missiles, not Every Progen Uses Missiles and not Every Voltoi or Tengu uses
Missiles etc etc.
Cloak is the Jenquai's Primary skill for combat, escape and Re-con.
[u]Jenquai's Cloak, its another way of preserving the Shields and Hull that the other classes are so fortunate to have plenty of.[/u]
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For the Fishbowl, perhaps starting with the 2nd wave, one fish that can see cloaked, per wave, who should be attacked and killed as quickly as possible by the PW/TWs to keep the JEs alive to debuff & JS, as well as the JT for whatever the devs decide she should be doing. Should be a "support" mob rather than the boss, in those cases IMO.

For the mini-raids, maybe some of them with 1 mob that can, but not all mini-raids. Ascendant Voltoi comes to mind as one that would not have see cloaked.

Not to mention that among the Jenquai only the JW can use missiles. The JE and JT cannot, though Kenu has mentioned changing the JT's second weapon from PLs to MLs. Hopefully GETCo will make some MLs for her to use if this is done as Jenquai MLs suck.

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I don't know Terrell
Although the other races do have two classes (iirc) that can fire a weapon while facing in any Direction.
Not to mention the range of those Missiles weapons.
Hhmm, I like the Idea.

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i still don't understand why a cloak would allow u to take half dmg. it bends light around your ship to make it invisible, not increase damage mitigation. any shots fired before cc engages should give full damage and in the event of a critical strike it should interrupt the cloak and leave u visible again.

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I wasnt aware that two classes of progen could shoot backwards. Id be quite curious to see this in action or how to duplicate it, phorlaug. Ryle cant, Khan cant, only shoots forward. (mighta been a typo on your part but you said both races, figure that to mean terrans and progen)


If you mean shield nova for the progen, realize that thing does the dps of like one level 7 beam with a range about the same as a beam, at its max level. Edited by Ryle

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