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The Combat Cloak Problem


Ryle

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The problem with comparing shield sap with energy leech is that jenquai also have a supplementary device (martyrs heart) that essentially fully recharges their reactor from a shield shunt.

If the progens had a similar device (1/4 reactor to full shields) I think that would balance rather well. The two minute thing I mean.
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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1340158280' post='59217']
Any Progen player answer this if you would please.
I would like to know How can an NPC Defend or combat against a Spamming Shield Sap? What can the DEVs do to stop this from happening? Instead of the 45 second cool down?
[/quote]

Hulled ships cant be sapped once they are down to hull. Extend more hulls. Add hulls to even bios. Fix the skill interrupt system so sap could be interrupted.
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[quote name='Drained' timestamp='1340159053' post='59221']
Martyr's heart has no restrictions, any race can use it.
[/quote]

It still serves as a double dip to nullify the cooldown timer of leech. Was what I was getting at.
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[quote name='Drained' timestamp='1340159053' post='59221']
Martyr's heart has no restrictions, any race can use it.
[/quote]
Thing is a PW or any other class that isn't Jenquai can't use that to keep them alive (i.e Cloaking before they take damage)...
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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1340159572' post='59223']
Thing is a PW or any other class that isn't Jenquai can't use that to keep them alive (i.e Cloaking before they take damage)...
[/quote]

To be fair TT and PP can via shield recharge. But the PW/TW/PS/and TS are pretty hopeless for using the MH for any practical purpose.
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Yes I agree. See, I remember the concept of high damage beams and constant cloak being balanced by insane reactor useage... but there are buffs and items in the game that completely nullify that limiter.

Maybe making CC much higher of a drain or activate? Something that not even a MH/Leech cycle could overcome if the battle goes over a few minutes (it takes ages to solo a raid boss and most other critters are a couple mins max)

This wouldnt limit the JD/JE/JS from killing a cl60 voltoi, but it would sure prevent them from killing something on the order of Controller or Aren'Zael Edited by Ryle
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Ya know, I just thought of something. The real problem all along isnt really CC, its the unlimited reactor capability provided by the Martyrs Heart. Maybe if they was Jenquai Restricted, that would eliminate 90 percent of the problem right there.

I mean with energy leech, what does a jenny really need with another reactor recharge item anyway? Its not like there are shield restore devices etc. Know what I mean?

Break the ability to fire/cloak/fire for an hour on end with the MH and you break the ability to solo a raid boss.


The principle here being: A PW can kill anything their shields/massive hull can outlast. But they have a limit to how much they can effectively take. Its a lot, granted, but there is a limit. The combo of damage avoiding CC plus unlimited reactor doesnt give a JD a limit to how long they can last. So instead of killing their CC ability, attack one of their three bars, in this case the green one. Prevent them from being able to keep it full forever.

In every MMO i have played, the glass cannon class has its DPS limited by either being really easy to kill (CC makes that pretty null) or so action/mana heavy they need to recharge and back off every now and then. Make it so with the Defender.

Problem solved. Edited by Ryle
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It's been a while since I've used energy leech on my JW, I didn't find it to be all that useful. Does energy leech work properly now? The JT btw, doesn't have a Leech skill, she gets Reactor Optimization instead. Jenquai are supposed to excel with energy, we get Reactors as our racial strength.

When mobs become able to resist skills, Shield Leech & Energy Leech will not be as reliable as sources of energy. Shield Sap will also be less reliable for healing a PW's shields. Traders will have to pick up the slack on Recharging Shields, while JE/JT will have to work on keeping other's power needs met. (JE with reactor transfer devices, JT with reactor optimization, and whatever energy devices she gets.)
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I understand that Terrel, but as it is right now a JD with a MH has no energy limits, at all. By the time youve used enough reactor to be low, the MH is ready to be used again. So long as youre being smooth with CC and taking as little damage as possible, youre effectively not going to have to stop at any point, and no matter how much health the boss has, youre gonna kill it.

So I mean I dunno where to go with it from there as far as suggest goes.

Theres gotta be a realistic limit, and right now outside of one shot kills because of a CC management error, theres no reason a JD cant just kill anything it looks at funny.

It would be similar to say if a TT only used 100 reactor for a max level heal of 57600. No matter how low the DPS of that TT with its 4 MLs and no crit... its gonna kill whatever its on, eventually.
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As soon as the CC god mode bug is fixed, how much energy a JW has to cloak and recloak won't really matter in terms of him taking damage. What's the point of making the MH Jen restricted, which also takes it away from the JE and JT as well, when the fix to the cloak bug will solve the problem?
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There was a limiter in Live - Shields didn't recharge while cloaked, so eventually their would be nothing to feed into the Martyr's Heart and you would have to wait uncloaked for it to recharge while solo.
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Ok so, the exploits of my first evening of trying to solo whatever bosses/raid content I can in the game as a typically geared JD with the usual setup. Im starting small and working my way up so I can really get my timings and nuances down, but tonight:

- Soloed all Tengu bosses including Kesash and Desash (ho hum, easy peasy)
- Soloed all Voltoi Bosses including both 60s (easy peasy)
- Soloed the entire mordana raid including the rapture (tedious but easy, looted ghost edge, the rapture and the mark VI's did not hit me a single time, seriously)
- Soloed a few cl64 BB Minions
- Soloed a Disruptor v2 and a couple of the Omega Series Scrubber drones.

Night one of the JD test complete. I dont know what I will do yet tomorrow.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340209746' post='59245']
- Soloed all Tengu bosses including Kesash and Desash (ho hum, easy peasy)
- Soloed all Voltoi Bosses including both 60s (easy peasy)
- Soloed a few cl64 BB Minions
[/quote]
Nothing new or relatively out of place there, these aren't difficult to go 1on1 with for any class right now in the Emu. You likely had far easier a time doing it that it should be, but that's it.

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340209746' post='59245']
- Soloed the entire mordana raid including the rapture (tedious but easy, looted ghost edge, the rapture and the mark VI's did not hit me a single time, seriously)
[/quote]
A game of biased luck, good proof that cloak is mitigating far too much and often. Cloak's previous God-Mode(all 0's all the time) version was reduced to its current(always half, still lots of 0's) version due to this raid being done by solo JD's.

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340209746' post='59245']
- Soloed a Disruptor v2 and a couple of the Omega Series Scrubber drones.
[/quote]
Can't comment, unknown factors.
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Well like I said, im just getting started. I havent even played JD a month, barely a week at anything over CL40, so its all new hat to me.

The fact that I can take the class out of the box, with little or no experience with it, and buttonmash my way to victory over some of the hardest content in the game, is kinda the point.

The whole time i was doing mordana, people in chat were like "wait til you get one shotted by the destroyers"

>.> They kinda tickled the few times they even shot at me.

Thats another issue i noticed, even missile using mordana were not seeing me long enough to shoot at me, no i wasnt using a coma either. I was merely hitting fire and cloak at the exact same time, basically.

For whatever reason, my cloak icon never disengages when I do that, but i still fire?

Strange.

Id like to add the controller drones and BB minions did hit me a little, but it was nothing unmanageable. I even attempted to tackle Precursor Alpha, but there were just too many support drones around to chance it. When I have more time to focus on the controller spawn (only had a half hour this morning when i was feeling like playing with it), ill see what I can accomplish there.

Outside of getting swamped by the support drones after a few refire cycles, I wasnt really taking much damage from the boss itself.
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1340196333' post='59238']
There was a limiter in Live - Shields didn't recharge while cloaked, so eventually their would be nothing to feed into the Martyr's Heart and you would have to wait uncloaked for it to recharge while solo.
[/quote]

Shields are re-charging while cloaked? Ummmm, that seems like a very easy part of Jen balancing to fix. I don't recall shields charging in live while cloaked and it makes sense that this would give Jen a very unfair advantage especially while using plasma beams. Although not allowing shields to recharge would not prevent JD's from soloing high level mobs it adds balancing functionality and might limit their use of martyr's heart an unlimited amount of times. If the JD's energy runs out, and the high level mob has a fast charging shield effect, this might be the easiest way to fix the issue of JD soloing content they shouldn't......and get us closer to Live's 'squadron of JD assassins' problem ; ]
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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1340216732' post='59253']
Shields are re-charging while cloaked? Ummmm, that seems like a very easy part of Jen balancing to fix. I don't recall shields charging in live while cloaked and it makes sense that this would give Jen a very unfair advantage especially while using plasma beams. [/quote]

Maybe we should look at the PS, when Power Down their Shields AND reactor recharge, Talk about Unfair.
How could it be a Power down if theres Power being fed to the shields and the Reactor is making Energy, Strange


[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340209746' post='59245']
Ok so, the exploits of my first evening of trying to solo whatever bosses/raid content I can in the game as a typically geared JD with the usual setup. Im starting small and working my way up so I can really get my timings and nuances down, but tonight:

- Soloed all Tengu bosses including Kesash and Desash (ho hum, easy peasy)
- Soloed all Voltoi Bosses including both 60s (easy peasy)
- Soloed the entire mordana raid including the rapture (tedious but easy, looted ghost edge, the rapture and the mark VI's did not hit me a single time, seriously)
- Soloed a few cl64 BB Minions
- Soloed a Disruptor v2 and a couple of the Omega Series Scrubber drones.

Night one of the JD test complete. I dont know what I will do yet tomorrow.
[/quote]

I'd like to see you do the 64 BB Minions and as long as no one else is there. Let Me know when your on so I can watch.

Edit:
Todays is Wednesday I can do tonight and Tomorrow (Thursday). The rest of the week will not be possible for me.
I'm Going fishing in a remote area for a week, I won't have internet and Real life fishing is much more fun.
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I watched a TE (Speenal) clear the minion nav this morning all by his lonesome and didn't die not one time....
Given enough time, this guy may actually figure out a way to get GoBB by himself. I would laugh so hard if he does....he's pretty much on his way to shooting down the "JD is overpowered" complaints that are permeating within this thread. I was impressed with this morn's performance to say the least.

Ryle, I would love to personally watch your attempts/experience with the minions/troller drones. So please...feel free to message Mynd or Adagio ingame.



*Patiently waits for cries to "nerf" TE's.....*
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I feel like cloak->fire->cloak should be a valid tactic, but under most scenarios I think players should take damage. not as much damage as if they weren't using cloak->fire->cloak, but some damage at least, which is not the case now for the most part. The other night I was watching magoo solo 58 voltoi without taking any damage. Not a huge feat but they're supposed to be kind of dangerous.

I also don't remember being able to recharge shields while cloaked, at least not as quickly as you can now.
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I went up to the rock today on my JD and took some screens which im surprised no one else has lol... Youd think itd be common sense that if your gonna make all these claims you might as well back it up with some photo evidence. Anyways heres mine! As you can see below, I am not using cloak buffs of any kind device or weapon.
The next photo is me shooting the minion after having summoned him out, theres also no summon buff so he is well within range, but notice the direction the minion is facing; he is facing away from me which does not allow him to shoot his beams.
The third photo shows him hitting me for a substantial amount of damage, now imagine trying to take 3 or 4 of these on with a JD without summon, or even gobb's group, if all 6 of em hit you your dead period, either that or reduced to 300 hull even with psi shield up with a psi shield buff. Notice he is FACING me.
The fourth photo is the death of the minion, notice my shields, I am at less than half, he managed to hit me quite a bit, and if I hadn't summoned him out I would have died for sure or not been in quite as good of shape.
[img]http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4166/screenshot01ss.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4958/screenshot03ir.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7426/screenshot06p.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/732/screenshot08t.jpg[/img]

The point here is to show that it is not the fire-cloak or cloak bug, or exploit, or whatever you want to call it, it is a matter of having the mobs SEE CLOAKED, SHOOT MISSLES, or STAY ATTENTIVE to the situation, and also the fact that yes, if i stay cloaked long enough two things happen my shields regen AND THE MOBS and the mobs shield recharge is much higher than mine. If i had a suggestion I'd suggest making JD's shield recharge half or less shield recharge rate when cloaked. There will be more evidence streaming in over the next few days. Time to put this poppycock to rest.
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Hmm...if you use the Scutums (+25% reactor recharge, -25% shield recharge) device like I do on my jenpies it can really slow down the shield recharge quite a bit actually. Now if you factor in damage and shields go way down....You can't martyr and more often than not the mob's shields have regenerated faster than mine. So guess what?.....It's back to the drawing board of renewing the attack of said mob(s).

I have had this happen countless times....but then it all goes back to what you are fighting as some AI (mobs) are broken, and aren't "hitting" like they were during "live".

Lastly, I don't see how this thread or any of the griping will fix the PW....which is the reason this all started.....
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