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Ryle

The Combat Cloak Problem

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So since the servers are down for now, I have the opportunity to post something that has been bothering me for weeks.

About 6 months ago, the Progen Warrior class received a significant nerf to its Shield Sap skill under the pretense that the skill was being spammed and allowing solo players to solo high end raid content.

It has come to my attention that a new flavor of the month class is being used to do exactly that now, the Jenquai Defender.

I have heard and witnessed now multiple instances of JD's using Combat Cloak vs the weak AI of even the fishbowl, and successfully soloing the entire raid, albeit over a 4 hour span of time.

This is patently ridiculous, and needs addressed, like right now. Not Soon™

My main profession got destroyed for high end content (the PW), only to see the JD now take the forefront of content solo? All you have to do is fire, cloak, fire, cloak, fire, cloak, and keep circling behind the MOB and you never take a single hit. There is even a delay of 3-5 seconds before outside mobs can hit you. It is completely possible to pick a mob out of a pack, and spam CC/Fire until its dead without even being shot. This is a complete exploitation of a skill, just like sap supposedly was being. If you have a martyrs heart you also can do this indefinately, since you never get run out of reactor power either.

Combat cloak needs a cooldown, say THIRTY seconds between uses, so it cannot be spammed. Just like Shield Sap.

That is all. Edited by Ryle

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I totally disagree with your assessment and your fix. We can't be nerfing class skills because of the Mob AI not working correctly - adding a cooldown to the JD's main means of defense is NOT the way to go. Until mobs that use projectiles or beams stop firing from their butt, or are able to acquire the target and fire upon JD the instant he decloaks, adding a cooldown would only kill the class. Yah cloak is broken - there are lots of issue that are going on with Jenquai, but your solution will not help anything. I also highly doubt a JD can solo anything like fish bowl with out a grouped JT cloaked and healing as well. So I think your claims are suspect. The ONLY way a JD could solo anything like that is to have absolutely ZERO latency - and that will not happen.

Mobs do not delay firing as you suggest, they fire instantly. As JD we do not have the luxury of screwing up even once on any high end content. Unlike a PW we do not have level 9 shields HDC and a huge hull, so one missed cloak costs us our lives and we becomes doritoes. And trust me when I say it currently nearly impossible to solo high end content using our other skills such as summon or fold space. High end Mobs have a firing range much farther than a JD fold space or summon so its useless unless in a group and not having aggro. Mob AI is the problem - not the JDs.

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339373621' post='58644']
I totally disagree with your assessment and your fix. We can't be nerfing class skills because of the Mob AI not working correctly - adding a cooldown to the JD's main means of defense is NOT the way to go. Until mobs that use projectiles or beams stop firing from their butt, or are able to acquire the target and fire upon JD the instant he decloaks, adding a cooldown would only kill the class. Yah cloak is broken - there are lots of issue that are going on with Jenquai, but your solution will not help anything. I also highly doubt a JD can solo anything like fish bowl with out a grouped JT cloaked and healing as well. So I think your claims are suspect. The ONLY way a JD could solo anything like that is to have absolutely ZERO latency - and that will not happen.

Mobs do not delay firing as you suggest, they fire instantly. As JD we do not have the luxury of screwing up even once on any high end content. Unlike a PW we do not have level 9 shields HDC and a huge hull, so one missed cloak costs us our lives and we becomes doritoes. And trust me when I say it currently nearly impossible to solo high end content using our other skills such as summon or fold space. High end Mobs have a firing range much farther than a JD fold space or summon so its useless unless in a group and not having aggro. Mob AI is the problem - not the JDs.
[/quote]

Alright, then lets un-nerf the PW's tanking skils, so we can be gods and solo everything too.

Why can one class and not the other? I mean JD are Warrior Explorers, PWs are Warriors ONLY. How the HELL do you justify a JD being better at combat in ANY WAY than a PW?

My ''claims" are multiply verified instances of solo Ken Shaos soloing the fishbowl. I have a guildy that does it regularly. As well as GoBB. And when I say solo, i mean single toon, just the JD. No other toons or people involved. Edited by Ryle

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I'll add an easy fix.

Add a few Minions that have The "See Cloak" Ability, Skill or Device, with Shared Scan They should also have a "Skill Activation Status Bar" . By adding a Minion of this caliber Raids will be so much more exciting, challenging and a JD will have a very hard time getting close enough to use his cloak in that manner. (Solo)

These Minions will have to be Destroyed or killed before the JDs full potential can be utilized.

I heard of this and I have tried to duplicate what You have been saying and I have never been able to get my Cloak to activate in less than 3 seconds. (As per skill description, this is correct)

I have had nearly every Cloak enhanced Item and combination installed and I still can't get below 3 seconds.
[b]There may be some that may of figured out a way through some exploit maybe to get the cloak to activate in under 3 seconds. I really wish they would come forward and demonstrate.[/b]

I have worked with other Jenquai players to find out how this is done, but to no avail. (By the request of our guild leaders of Voncorp). Nor I have I seen anyone do this.
[u]I can not[/u] put in a BUG/Exploit if [u]I can not duplicate it[/u].

But, If a Jenquai is smart enough to fight an NPC that [u]HAS TO FACE[/u] its attacker in order to shoot him.
I don't think the JD or any Jenquai should be punished for useing his brain.

This plea and fix is coming from a Zealot Jenquai.
Myself..

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Here I will break it down so you too can do it.

Aggro the mobs, cloak immediately. Wait a moment for them to start turning away. Come up behind the mob you wish to kill. Fire and spam the recloak button immediately. You will not get hit much, if at all. Repeat the process until that mob is dead. Wait for them to turn, nail em, you will eventually whittle them down 1 by 1 without breaking a sweat, it just takes forever.

There is no failing of the cloak, the mobs dont turn fast enough to hit you back unless they have missle weapons.

Some may argue this is good tactics, but there is no reason that 10 cl 56-66 mobs should be killable by ONE cl 50 toon of any profession. A PW or TE would be wrecked in about 10 seconds. Edited by Ryle

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Got to ditto that Algaron, it has been done, and posted about, about "certain" JD being able to solo GoBB. I'm partailly sceptical that a JD could solo a full FB raid, but perhaps with 4 hr. and the JD's that have done GoBB, my scepticism is only "partial".

I do agree that with you however that the solution isn't a sledgehammer to JD primary combat skill (CC) over mobs poor AI. However I also see Ryle's point, he is understandably upset that the same sledgehammer that shouldn't be taken to a JD skill WAS taken to a PW primary skill because of poor mob AI. Until the mob AI can be fixed, until the JD skills are tweeked, why should the PW's miss out on the same fun that JD's get to have exclusively, retweek the PW back, let them (and others) enjoy some silly god mode moments until mob AI is fixed, THEN get down to the dirty business of "balance" of player skills.

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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1339378506' post='58653']
Got to ditto that Algaron, it has been done, and posted about, about "certain" JD being able to solo GoBB. I'm partailly sceptical that a JD could solo a full FB raid, but perhaps with 4 hr. and the JD's that have done GoBB, my scepticism is only "partial".

I do agree that with you however that the solution isn't a sledgehammer to JD primary combat skill (CC) over mobs poor AI. However I also see Ryle's point, he is understandably upset that the same sledgehammer that shouldn't be taken to a JD skill WAS taken to a PW primary skill because of poor mob AI. Until the mob AI can be fixed, until the JD skills are tweeked, why should the PW's miss out on the same fun that JD's get to have exclusively, retweek the PW back, let them (and others) enjoy some silly god mode moments until mob AI is fixed, THEN get down to the dirty business of "balance" of player skills.
[/quote]

bam, exactly where I was coming from, thank you matt.

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Right now most player skills aren't interruptable by mobs. Prospect is the only one I can think of that currently gets interrupted. It's only a matter of time before mobs can interrupt player skills by doing enough damage. It's also the case that mobs don't appear to be able to resist either skills or debuffers. Perhaps those things should be implemented before we talk about nerfing the entire Jenquai races main means of survival. Nerfing Combat Cloak doesn't just affect the JW, it also affects the JE & JT.

Mobs seeing cloaked, there should be a few but other than the V'rix and some Raid level mobs, most should not.

Alpha hasn't occured as of yet, so there's plenty of things that will have to be done w/r/t balance both to the mobs, and the classes.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1339378661' post='58655']
Right now most player skills aren't interruptable by mobs. Prospect is the only one I can think of that currently gets interrupted. It's only a matter of time before mobs can interrupt player skills by doing enough damage. It's also the case that mobs don't appear to be able to resist either skills or debuffers. Perhaps those things should be implemented before we talk about nerfing the entire Jenquai races main means of survival. Nerfing Combat Cloak doesn't just affect the JW, it also affects the JE & JT.

Mobs seeing cloaked, there should be a few but other than the V'rix and Raid level mobs, most should not.

Alpha hasn't occured as of yet, so there's plenty of things that will have to be done w/r/t balance both to the mobs, and the classes.
[/quote]

To counter the point of this, when the PW Shield Sap was nerfed to the 45 second timer we are on, we lost all ability to solo large groups of mobs, especially hulled mobs. My PW is beast, stacked. Yet I cannot take a trio of BBW drones anymore without my TT as backup. I simply cant sap often enough (by the time my sap is back up, im into hulls and theres nothing to sap from). My tank warrior is now relatively worthless outside of cooper and antares where all mobs are shield only.

I can have all the hull and shield in the world, but eventually if i cant heal myself i will die. Edited by Ryle

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Ryle, the problem isn't the way the mob is facing, they have insta turn and fire from butt etc. The mob "manuverability" function isn't in or functioning correctly if it is. The problem is RoF and God mode cloak. Once cloaked they take 0 dmg. If a mobs RoF is over 3 sec. and the JD is good on timing they never need take a hit, by the time the mob fires they are in Godmode cloak. Or if the mobs RoF is faster than 3 sec, but its other than beam, there is a "arrival of dmg" delay, this is to simulate the missle or projectile arrival time. But if they can get under cloak before that "arrival of dmg" time it don't count as hitting them. This was a accomodation to latency problems, it is actually sort of-but not really a "exploit", there isn't a way for a JD not to "exploit" it other than to sit there and die, nobody wants to do that so CC it is.

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Also, when I was out with Ninjette the other day, I was solo killing the Bison and the Sagat in the middle of those masses of spores right? Guess what CL my JD was at the time. 27. I was killing content 17 combat levels above my own??? Really?

Its overpowered.

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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1339379085' post='58657']
Ryle, the problem isn't the way the mob is facing, they have insta turn and fire from butt etc. The mob "manuverability" function isn't in or functioning correctly if it is. The problem is RoF and God mode cloak. Once cloaked they take 0 dmg. If a mobs RoF is over 3 sec. and the JD is good on timing they never need take a hit, by the time the mob fires they are in Godmode cloak. Or if the mobs RoF is faster than 3 sec, but its other than beam, there is a "arrival of dmg" delay, this is to simulate the missle or projectile arrival time. But if they can get under cloak before that "arrival of dmg" time it don't count as hitting them. This was a accomodation to latency problems, it is actually sort of-but not really a "exploit", there isn't a way for a JD not to "exploit" it other than to sit there and die, nobody wants to do that so CC it is.
[/quote]

Ive seen that 0 damage thing in action. Why is it when the cloak goes up youre invulnerable? Anyone remember Star Trek 6? >.> Pretty sure a cloaked ship takes purty good damage while cloaked. So maybe thats the fix needed. Anything fired at you before cloak is engaged should hit and do full damage when it arrives.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339378923' post='58656']
To counter the point of this, when the PW Shield Sap was nerfed to the 45 second timer we are on, we lost all ability to solo large groups of mobs, especially hulled mobs. My PW is beast, stacked. Yet I cannot take a trio of BBW drones anymore without my TT as backup. I simply cant sap often enough (by the time my sap is back up, im into hulls and theres nothing to sap from). My tank warrior is now relatively worthless outside of cooper and antares where all mobs are shield only.

I can have all the hull and shield in the world, but eventually if i cant heal myself i will die.
[/quote]

If shield sap is broken, in terms of how much shield it's bringing back then it should be fixed. However, one of the points to this game is for Warriors to receive support from Traders & Explorers. So for things like the Fishbowl, or any of the major raids, or even mini raids, it should take more than one player to kill all the mobs necessary to complete the raid. Something like the Fishbowl or the Tada-O raid should take multiple groups to do. If you can heal yourself to the point where you don't need a healer, what's the point of having support classes?

On the issue of combat cloak, I don't think that Cloak should be "god mode" but putting a 30 second cooldown on it essentially makes the skill worthless not only for fighting, but also for mining heavily guarded orefields, where you are using CC to avoid fights. The 3 second power up time, for L5 cloak, and the future possiblity of it being interrupted by heavy damage should be sufficent to balance the class. That's yet to be added at this time, but all player skills should be interruptable if enough damage is received during the power up cycle.

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There is a strategy that might help you a bit on the BBW drones Ryle, don't area sap, solo sap. That long timer is mobs you have tapped already, if you solo tap a mob and then need some shield switch target long enough to hit sap on other drone, then switch back to first target. Once you got target 1 down, go back to target 2 and start shooting it, tapping target 3 like you did before when you need more shield, there are 2 timers on ths sap skill now, one for the coolddown of the actual skill and one for the internal timer on already tapped mob.

If you time it right you might (if geared right) not get a smoking hull, but its even better with at least one other toon, it need not even be a healer, I take my PW/PS all the time together and never get below 1/2 shield with my PW. I do the same strategy I told you above, but I also have the buffs of a PS on (that helps) and if they start swarming my PW I peel one off with my PS shooting/debuffing it to take agro. That makes 2x L9 shields to absorb all that a 56,58,60 combo of drones can dish out.

I was leveling a TT and dualing, it was not as easy as the PW/PS combo really, since the power demands of heals and shoots on a TT would drain his reactor so fast, and he didn't offer the buffs that a PS did.
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Yes, Terrell makes the point I have before. Skills at present aren't interuptable. when they are there "should" be a fail rate for CC and bleed through of dmg as well. Currently because that isn't happening cloak is godmode, they shouldn't nerf a primary skill of all Jen's until thats in, but you can see Ryle's point as well right? that non-nerfed sap is the PW's Godmode that Jen's are getting via cloak. He wants to be in the sandbox that they get to play in....until the "nerfbully" :) gets the interupts in, he wants the same bodyguard that the Jen have that sscares the NerfBully.

As to the supports missing out, eh, not really. Yes, if everyone had a godmode then none of the warriors would NEED a support along, but MMO are social in nature, when is the last time in EnBEMU have you seen a call for help/aid been told to stuff it? If for no other reason warriors would take support along, either to make the process faster, have someone to chat with, or just to witness their holy grandeur :)

The point I've made before is simply what is "balance" if you cut the legs out from under half the table? It serves absolutely no logic to "balance" player skills if all the parts of the puzzle aren't in, like fail/pass rates, mob resists, mob buffs, mob debuffs, mob AI mechanics, manuverability factor(s), player buffs, player debuffs, player resists, player manuverability balance....the list is much longer than this..but you get the point, why "nerf" a skill now when it will have to be retuned and tweeked over and over again as those things start flowing in.

Back to the table example: why would you put your dinner and drink on a table while someone was sawing away at the legs? Until they re-leg the table and finish it, you're just going to wind up with a mess of food on the floor and you going hunger, get either another table or a T.V. tray and make do until the kitchen table is finished. Edited by Mattsacre

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I do know of JD that solo Gobb - I have done it myself, but it's not some cakewalk, and rarely will you be able to get thru the raid unscathed and without dying. As for soloing Fish bowl - not a chance without a JT along side of you.

I have had cloak fail lots of times - currently if I get enough damage on my JD - it will fail, especially if I get hulled. Please also realize that with high end content latency plays a huge factor with a jenquai's cloak. You think you are going to avoid damage by cloaking in time, but most times projectiles and missiles are already on the way. Even after it appears you are cloaked.

As for doing mobs 17 levels above you. Welcome to the world of JD's. Thats how the class is played. Of course we can kill mobs high above our level as thats how the class was designed. Massive damage intermittently. Any warrior class can kill mobs much higher than they are - if you are skilled enough and have the patience to do it. Coma and snipe with a JD - we also have missiles and projectiles for that class as well don't forget.

All of the devices and uber weapons in the world will not help your class if its not played correctly. I take on 3 drones all the time - coma them all summon one and work it - while folding the others away. It's not hard - it's just technique.

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I am a Jenquai, I have always been a Jenquai I know how to play the race and Class.
Sorry but what you are describing is the JDs skill not the skill its self but having skill in combat and a MOB AI that needs to be tweaked.
Lets say your in PvP in order to combat the Jenquai cloak you would install something to see cloak, something like a Aggrippa Tech thing. Its Intelligence.
I have been saying for a long long time the MOBs are too dam easy to kill.
Don't nerf a skill because the MOB AI is currently off, [color=#ff0000]that circle of Faction Nerffing will never stop![/color]

If a Player can get his Cloak up completely UNDER 3 seconds that is a Bug and Exploit, [b]please have your guild member come forward and Show a DEV how he or she is doing it.[/b]

[b][quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339378923' post='58656']
To counter the point of this, when the PW Shield Sap was nerfed to the 45 second timer we are on, we lost all ability to solo large groups of mobs, especially hulled mobs. My PW is beast, stacked. Yet I cannot take a trio of BBW drones anymore without my TT as backup. I simply cant sap often enough (by the time my sap is back up, im into hulls and theres nothing to sap from). My tank warrior is now relatively worthless outside of cooper and antares where all mobs are shield only.

I can have all the hull and shield in the world, but eventually if i cant heal myself i will die.
[/quote][/b]

My JDs Energy Leech is 45 seconds. While were at it lets Nerf the PS Powerdown so that anyone or anything can see their shields and Reactor recharging (when their powered down) when they have "See cloak".

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339380631' post='58664']
I do know of JD that solo Gobb - I have done it myself, but it's not some cakewalk, and rarely will you be able to get thru the raid unscathed and without dying. As for soloing Fish bowl - not a chance without a JT along side of you.

I have had cloak fail lots of times - currently if I get enough damage on my JD - it will fail, especially if I get hulled. Please also realize that with high end content latency plays a huge factor with a jenquai's cloak. You think you are going to avoid damage by cloaking in time, but most times projectiles and missiles are already on the way. Even after it appears you are cloaked.

As for doing mobs 17 levels above you. Welcome to the world of JD's. Thats how the class is played. Of course we can kill mobs high above our level as thats how the class was designed. Massive damage intermittently. Any warrior class can kill mobs much higher than they are - if you are skilled enough and have the patience to do it. Coma and snipe with a JD - we also have missiles and projectiles for that class as well don't forget.

All of the devices and uber weapons in the world will not help your class if its not played correctly. I take on 3 drones all the time - coma them all summon one and work it - while folding the others away. It's not hard - it's just technique.
[/quote]

Ok so lets get on our PWs, and you can show me how to solo GoBB.

Since you can do it on a JD, and claim any profession can do anything another can if played correctly, lets go solo GoBB or a few waves of fish shall we?

And /t bleakened from Ballistic Mystix and ask him about soloing the bowl, he does it all the bloody time.

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339380674' post='58665']
I am a Jenquai, I have always been a Jenquai I know how to play the race and Class.
Sorry but what you are describing is the JDs skill not the skill its self but having skill in combat and a MOB AI that needs to be tweaked.
Lets say your in PvP in order to combat the Jenquai cloak you would install something to see cloak, something like a Aggrippa Tech thing. Its Intelligence.
I have been saying for a long long time the MOBs are too dam easy to kill.
Don't nerf a skill because the MOB AI is currently off, [color=#ff0000]that circle of Faction Nerffing will never stop![/color]

If a Player can get his Cloak up completely UNDER 3 seconds that is a Bug and Exploit, [b]please have your guild member come forward and Show a DEV how he or she is doing it.[/b]
[/quote]

Unnerf the PW then. Simple as.

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I can attest to the 0 damage when cloaked deal. I just learned to cycle combat cloak while fighting, and that's one of the first things I noticed - when a mob fires at the exact time I'm cloaked, I get a 0 damage indicator.

It has saved my life once in an ore field too, I was into hull from a backwhacking mob + cloak button failure (the UI sometimes doesn't take a click) and watched two or three killer shots hit my now cloaked, smoking, 2/3 hull L50 hull for 0 damage. Whew.

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1339380674' post='58665']
I am a Jenquai, I have always been a Jenquai I know how to play the race and Class.
Sorry but what you are describing is the JDs skill not the skill its self but having skill in combat and a MOB AI that needs to be tweaked.
Lets say your in PvP in order to combat the Jenquai cloak you would install something to see cloak, something like a Aggrippa Tech thing. Its Intelligence.
I have been saying for a long long time the MOBs are too dam easy to kill.
Don't nerf a skill because the MOB AI is currently off, [color=#ff0000]that circle of Faction Nerffing will never stop![/color]

If a Player can get his Cloak up completely UNDER 3 seconds that is a Bug and Exploit, [b]please have your guild member come forward and Show a DEV how he or she is doing it.[/b]



[b]My JDs Energy Leech is 45 seconds[/b]
[/quote]

martyrs heart

by all means please give me an instant refill shields button usable every 45 seconds in between saps. Edited by Ryle

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It is possible to solo a fishbowl without a JT, albeit it is extremely difficult and requires a lot of patience. I guess that means the AI is broken, and just to verify that it is possible I've done it four times... solo, no JT or healing of any kind.

I also do it without cloak buffs, and the cloak takes 3 seconds or longer.

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[quote name='Drained' timestamp='1339381153' post='58670']
It is possible to solo a fishbowl without a JT, albeit it is extremely difficult and requires a lot of patience. I guess that means the AI is broken, and just to verify that it is possible I've done it four times... solo, no JT or healing of any kind.

I also do it without cloak buffs, and the cloak takes 3 seconds or longer.
[/quote]

You Bleak bro?

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The drones around the Drone Fabrication Plant north of QAR can be killed by a JT solo. Did it before with mine, but it wasn't a matter of "God Mode" cloak. I was able to use their tethering agianst them, to get the 60 by himself. I suspect that the 60 isn't doing as much damage as he should either so at max beam range my JT had plenty of time to recharge her shields if they got low. Described in [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6591-tethering-behaviour/page__"]this thread[/url].

That's an AI issue that will likely be fixed at some time.

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Sorry for calling ya out man, but youre kinda the reason for this post of whine. XD

Your JD antics have been ticking me off for 3 weeks now, because you should not be able to solo what you have been.

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