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Ryle

The Combat Cloak Problem

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339385767' post='58710']
As a player who has played a PW since the first month of Live as a main... i couldnt agree more. Why nerf my profession doing what it does best? Its not like I can go mine some roids or even build many things... yea sure weapons, but cant even make them for 1/3 of the playerbase, jen weaps are restricted. So what do I do? Take a backseat to a hybrid class while they take away what the whole point of mine was? All because of the unneeded nerf?
[/quote]
Well not only that... The JD is doing things the PW couldn't even do before it was nerfed.

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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1339385927' post='58711']
Well not only that... The JD is doing things the PW couldn't even do before it was nerfed.
[/quote]

I really want to know when the devs are just going to erase the PW from the character list, and just make the JD the "warrior" class.

Im sick of it, honestly this is NOT how its meant to be. PW is the combat class, no other profession should be able to touch it. Everything about the profession is geared 100 percent for combat. We have no group role, nothing but tank and DPS... and now that whole point is being taken by combat cloak.

JDs were never this powerful in live. You would never even come near the DPS of live Ryle on a tengu, much less a raid mob, with a JD. You wouldnt KS me on anything under 500k health, it just was not possible.

Nor could you basically outlive me on the same. You kidding me how much of a joke this is? Level 9 shields with 250%HDC 82000 hp hull, and the JD is living longer because the mobs wont shoot the dang thing. Edited by Ryle

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Jenquai feel your pain when it comes to building progen stuff - I am not sure, so don't quote me, but I thought I remember being able to make progen stuff on my JD - just not being able to equip it.

As to nerfing classes or balancing - it's pretty much a given that Mob Ai needs to be addressed before any skills or class balancing can happen. We can't put the cart before the horse. There is lots wrong or not working with every class right now, including my beloved JD, but I am under no illusion that tweaking skills or nerfing classes will really fix anything until they fix Mob AI. I think the best course of action is to push the Devs into fixing the Mob AI first before we can talk about balance.

---------------
A Progen Warrior is the MOST powerful class in the game bar none.

Here is the thing. A PW can out DPS any class over time, if only because you do not stop firing and your damage builds up over time. Whereas a JD has to stop firing to cloak wait 3 secs in order to get Stealth strike (another broken skill) for double damage. On smaller mobs a JD will own always just because of the massive damage we can do intermittently. On raid mobs the PW will ALWAYS out DPS everyone. IF a JD and a PW each took an identical mob, say a lvl 60 drone - the PW would totally own. Edited by Dakynos
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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339386259' post='58714']
Jenquai feel your pain when it comes to building progen stuff - I am not sure, so don't quote me, but I thought I remember being able to make progen stuff on my JD - just not being able to equip it.

As to nerfing classes or balancing - it's pretty much a given that Mob Ai needs to be addressed before any skills or class balancing can happen. We can't put the cart before the horse. There is lots wrong or not working with every class right now, including my beloved JD, but I am under no illusion that tweaking skills or nerfing classes will really fix anything until they fix Mob AI. I think the best course of action is to push the Devs into fixing the Mob AI first before we can talk about balance.
[/quote]
Really wish they did before they hit the PW... As far as I have seen the PW is the only profession that the nerfs actually stuck on. I remember people complaining about cloak and such for others but nothing ever sticking.

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339386259' post='58714']
Jenquai feel your pain when it comes to building progen stuff - I am not sure, so don't quote me, but I thought I remember being able to make progen stuff on my JD - just not being able to equip it.

As to nerfing classes or balancing - it's pretty much a given that Mob Ai needs to be addressed before any skills or class balancing can happen. We can't put the cart before the horse. There is lots wrong or not working with every class right now, including my beloved JD, but I am under no illusion that tweaking skills or nerfing classes will really fix anything until they fix Mob AI. I think the best course of action is to push the Devs into fixing the Mob AI first before we can talk about balance.
[/quote]

I am "fairly" certain i could build the DG in live. Here I cant. Its not even just "sundari" or whatever else the manus are, its anything equipped to one race cant be even analyzed now by the opposite.

I have no doubt the AI is largely the culprit here, but its been over 6 months of this, this needs addressed or it never will.

This is an argument that actually is 10 years in the making and you know it, which is the better combat profession, PW or JD, and the old EA forums were crazy with it, calling for PW nerfs and so on, nigh constantly by butthurt Jenny players that wanted to have it all, be everything. Finally in the EMU the jenquai fanboys on the dev team granted the wish and nerfed us to hell and back. Now the PW is a second pick DPS to any JD. Any time.

PW - 6 guns 3 devices, all passive and active skills are designed for combat, period. No group role and our only build skill is intended so we can make our own ammo and weapons for ourselves.

Why take away from the PW, the element of combat superiority, its all we do. Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339386648' post='58717']
A Progen Warrior is the MOST powerful class in the game bar none.

Here is the thing. A PW can out DPS any class over time, if only because you do not stop firing and your damage builds up over time. Whereas a JD has to stop firing to cloak wait 3 secs in order to get Stealth strike (another broken skill) for double damage. On smaller mobs a JD will own always just because of the massive damage we can do intermittently. On raid mobs the PW will ALWAYS out DPS everyone. IF a JD and a PW each took an identical mob, say a lvl 60 drone - the PW would totally own.
[/quote]

Youre discounting survivability. That would be true EXCEPT that the JD isnt getting slaughtered by 6 mobs beating on it while it cloaks and takes no damage. Big shields and hull arent as big as they look when youve got 6 raid mobs chewing on you.

Long term durability again goes to the JD, because of CC.



I have an idea. Lets all of us, every single person from the forum thats been in this thread, all go to the fishbowl as soon as the game starts back up. Me and Bleakened (the JD guildy this thread started over) can take our toons there. My PW, his JD.

Ill go first, Ill see how long I last and how many fish I kill by myself.

Then let him try.

I bet money says he wins. And quite frankly I bet im dead before I kill a single one. Edited by Ryle

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No I agree - I dont want anything taken away from the ability of a PW to survive in a raid. As a JD in a raid, I would want the PW to hold aggro and take the damage, so as a JD I can do my thing. You are the galaxy's meat shield, and every group should have a meat shield :D

It's like when I played a fire mage in WoW - I would stand behind the Warrior, let him gather aggro so I could unload my massive DPS on the boss. Unfortunately, WoW made the mistake of giving almost every class skills and spells that would rival a mage's pure power and DPS. Mages still could out DPS a warrior, but thats how it should be. Druids and Rogues and Warlocks were doing just as much dps as any mage could. So I left. :unsure:

JD's are the glass cannons of EnB. Massive damage and paper thin shielding. I sure hope EMU doesn't go the way of WoW.

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339387277' post='58721']
Youre discounting survivability. That would be true EXCEPT that the JD isnt getting slaughtered by 6 mobs beating on it while it cloaks and takes no damage. Big shields and hull arent as big as they look when youve got 6 raid mobs chewing on you.

Long term durability again goes to the JD, because of CC.



I have an idea. Lets all of us, every single person from the forum thats been in this thread, all go to the fishbowl as soon as the game starts back up. Me and Bleakened (the JD guildy this thread started over) can take our toons there. My PW, his JD.

Ill go first, Ill see how long I last and how many fish I kill by myself.

Then let him try.

I bet money says he wins. And quite frankly I bet im dead before I kill a single one.
[/quote]
Oh no you can kill one of those low level minnions in the first wave. One...

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[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1339387528' post='58723']
No I agree - I dont want anything taken away from the ability of a PW to survive in a raid. As a JD in a raid, I would want the PW to hold aggro and take the damage, so as a JD I can do my thing. You are the galaxy's meat shield, and every group should have a meat shield :D

It's like when I played a fire mage in WoW - I would stand behind the Warrior, let him gather aggro so I could unload my massive DPS on the boss. Unfortunately, WoW made the mistake of giving almost every class skills and spells that would rival a mage's pure power and DPS. Mages still could out DPS a warrior, but thats how it should be. Druids and Rogues and Warlocks were doing just as much dps as any mage could. So I left. :unsure:

JD's are the glass cannons of EnB. Massive damage and paper thin shielding. I sure hope EMU doesn't go the way of WoW.
[/quote]

Honestly I wouldnt mind if a JD could do more damage than a PW over time. I really wouldnt, but there has to be the tradeoff of a real chance of actually getting mangled while doing it. As it is, CC is waaayyy too overpowered and so on. As I said above, any JD will outlive my PW in a raid, if they play the way they should. Theres just nothing I can do, besides get beat to a bloody pulp, meanwhile good ol JD is showing me that my level 9 shields and megahull are just meaningless. Follow?

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Oh the chance of getting mangled is very real. I mistime one cloak - or better yet - clicking on the skill or pressing a key doesn't activate because of latency, and I am dead. Full stop. There is no second chance on trying to cloak, as I just don't have the shielding or hull to survive a second shot.

At any rate I agree with you, as it is now JDs have an advantage when it comes to being able to solo high level content. However, once the Mob AI is fixed, that advantage will dissappear instantly. This is still pre-alpha so I wouldn't panic just yet, I would suggest we push the devs to work on Mob AI right now and not worry about who can solo what in this incarnation.

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forgive me for not having enough time to read through this thread, but we had a problem with cloak->fire->cloak being overpowered a while back. When that happened we made some changes so instead of taking no damage if they were hit while recloaking, they took half damage. It could be that these changes rolled back somehow or that we didn't take into account the effect of Improve Cloaking devices on the cloak->fire->cloak tactic because they probably weren't around at that time. It's something that we could look into.
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I don't know if it rolled back or not Kenu, but I can tell you currently at least with my JD (and being told by others its the same with them), that if you get cloak on before dmg arrives then the dmg meter is 0 dmg. So if their RoF is slower than 3 sec. I can escape all dmg even if its incomming from a ranged shot, I get cloaked before it arrives I'm immune.

This allows at least 3 tactics to escape all dmg.
1 .Hit and cloak before they agro and get a shot (there is a pause on their first shot coming out of cloak, figure its "re-orientation time"), this works on slow RoF mobs. This used to require (live) a back stab attack, you had until the mob turned to get cloaked, with mob AI as it is now, they turn on a dime and tailgun, so maybe the reorient pause is something you guys put in to compensate?

2. Blind and blast, blind them with coma and fire outside their see range, cloaking to move in for debuffs and cloaking back out to escape their shots when they orient on you, this works on beamer mobs.

3. Push/pull, CC, hit them and teleport them, the incomming shots if ranged have travel time and you can get cloaked before they arrive, escaping all dmg.

With the exception of a well played #2 the other methods should result in at least a little dmg, even if its a mitigated amount arriving late through cloak, with cloak at current settings there is no 'late dmg" Edited by Mattsacre

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[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/tracker/issue-53-cloak-issuesexploits/page__gopid__129#entry129"]First report of the bug[/url]
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/tracker/issue-233-insta-cloak/page__gopid__739#entry739"]Second report of the bug[/url]
It still exists, and is impossible to not benefit from it, but nor has it ever been reliable. Rapidly activating&deactivating skills has a history of causing problems here.

Damage while cloaked:[list]
[*]Damage that occurs once cloaked is reduced by half.
[*]Damage that occurs once cloaked also has a chance to be '0', and appears to be a higher chance the closer it hits to the moment cloak activates(which all beams hit exactly at, projectiles and missiles usually hit after cloak has finished).
[*]At least one of the two needs to go.
[/list][list]
[*]Damage to the hull can, and usually will, interrupt cloak. Shield damage currently does not.
[/list]

Mob AI:[list]
[*]Mob AI has been having a difficult time at Raids ever since March when they started experimenting with new AI. The problem is not cloaks activation time though, I can wait a couple seconds before re-engaging cloak and still not get shot at. The problem is that the mobs are waiting too long before they even aggro, whereas before, if you had previously aggroed them, they would instantly aggro when you uncloaked and start turning to shoot you, now they wait so long to aggro that you can recloak without ever aggroing a mob.
[*]The few times a mob does remain aggroed to you, they can shoot you instantly coming out of cloak, if they are already facing you.
[/list]

Mobs firing beams and projectiles out their ass:[list]
[*]Not possible while solo, which is part of why JD's are forced to play solo, mobs need a another valid target to exploit and shoot backwards at you. Except for when they are in flee-mode(moving at double speed to their anchor point), which needs to be removed entirely.
[/list]
Improved Cloak Equipment:[list]
[*]This buff still does absolutely nothing, and has no part in the problems with <3s cloak time.
[/list]
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hey figured id just throw my 2 cents in since i feel like this whole thing started with me .

first off if you notice its all progen and jenquai arguing on here . so cut the race bs . its funny how people who play progen dont care for jenquai and same the other way . ... fake racism... anyway the whole summon with 2 jd thing works live look on new players guide on the old enb site under the jd new player guide .. also raid mobs were and were not summonable ... controller for instance u could not summon and it also did not move . it also saw cloak . that would keep me from soloing as u say but i use js/jd for troller . gobb new mob was not live only uses beams a directional wep. if a it saw cloak or used missles just as strong i cannot solo anymore then .

fishbowl isnt the real fb yet so there is no reason to complain at all i can do fb as te/tt no prob and pw tt so thats obvious . if you remeber the tadao gate raid u could summon those mobs HOWEVER the bosses were more resistant! remeber psi resist? so it didnt work everytime it would take a couple of trys same with alot of skills in game. also if u never played jenq live or never made it to 150 and didnt do all the raids keep your mouth shut about how my jd is sopposed to work .

i dont go sayin they should nerf pw i dont know jack about the pw . the whole nerfing sap thing i know nothing about but i do know it should work just like live plain and simple no pw could ks me in cooper or on small mobs even 60 voltoi but on bigger things that took more than 1-4 vollys yea pw had the kill thats what i remeber . we are still pre alpha and nerfing things notw is just retarded .

btw durring live last 3 weeks game was up i went to try to solo the dt raid on je with 4 comas ... i got 2 of 3 mobs comaed before i died , jsed myself and comaed the rest . sat there kiting them without gettin hit for about 30 mins without dien but i couldnt do enuf dmg to keep its shields down . remeber that if u didnt have enuf dps in group for raid mobs there shields wouldnt move cause there recharge was high and constant even when being hit it would recharge at a lower rate then when not being hit . so they werent soloable otherwise with enuf time live a je could do the dt raid solo .

kinda funny how a small group with good equip the skill and balls to try something could accomplish so much if i had a te pw and jd around MAYBE it woulda been possable to pull off dt with one group u know te pw moving backward firing with low sigs + jd usen summon and foldspace keepin them where they needed to be if not insert more pw te jd for dmg . ither way we should have devs working on gettin the devices and content in before we start nerfing and crying about who can do what . play the toons u know and make bug reports about how they could work more like live insted of making useless posts about (yes even like this one) how you "think" something on a toon u never actully played much at all should be working . as i said before just because u got a toon to 150 live doesnt mean you know how to play it . Dark cloud riders in ardus could be soloed on jd including the boss without gettin shot once ! if u didnt know that you did not actully play a jd ! i had a 150 pw live but i def didnt know alot of the tricks or how to best utilize there skills ty Shouldnotseeme.exe

oh btw im not denying that cloak is currently buged .. but before the bug i could do the same thing im doin now it was just harder to pull off without gettin poped Edited by Dakynos
added some space

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Couple of great bugs posted here......and sounds like they have been around for a long time and could even be considered exploits. Hopefully these got posted/updated in the Bug Tracker.

Lets worry about class balance per class not in comparison to each other. Currently I feel the PW plays very similar to Live. The JD feels a little overpowered atm but this may be due to mob AI and skill bugs. I know JD's that could solo level 60 stuff in Live but not raid content or multiple mobs. If they got targetted by multiple mobs they got hosed. Effective JD's, just like effective PWs, could pull a single mob from a pack and then kill it but this took quite a bit of skill vs high level mobs.

Most of the 'my PW got nerfed' never played high end PWs in Live. Learn how to use grav link and kite. PWs are still damn effective.....but just like in live if a PW doesn't move they need a Trader to keep their shields up when facing multiple high level mobs.

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Cricky crichton! ( couldn't resist), I DID play high end Pw live (and PS,JE,JD,TT and TE) most often PS I confess, the thrill of the ellusive hulks...like gold fever really.

And yes..I did LOTS of kite combat with the PW/PS, grav link was great for that, in a group my Ps was the designated GL spammer, saving the PW more power for guns (and a PS can do it faster anyway) the current problem with kiting is mob AI, many of them thrust WAY faster than live, even through a GL and back thrust, many of them have range so far out of true its insane ( thats becuase of other classes exploiting range mechanics to take on mobs they shouldn't be able to).

The point being, while PW's have been "balanced" (nerfed) their fellow classes haven't, or have skills functioning uncorrectly allowing "UNbalanced" behaviour. A "balanced" class is at a distinct disadvantage, both becuase of unbalanced enviroment they are forced to compete in (silly mob AI) and other class "UNbalanced" advantages. Thus the frustration you see in the thread.

The PW should be reUNbalanced like other classes, given the environment they are forced to compete in. At least until the mob AI can get tuned enough and other class skills "balanced" as well so we can all get a even playing field. Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed the JD godmode just as much as others, that don't want to give it up. I also enjoyed the prenerf mode of PW, enough so that I would like to see it back for a while :)

Don't take the complaints as " they get to do that I don't and I'm jealous whaa whaa whaaaaa" , many of us complaining, play JD as well and know just how agregious it is :), take the PW off house arrest and let them back in the sandbox with all the kids!
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Id like to point out that despite my issues with adjusting to the shield sap changes, I was and am one of the most dedicated and knowledgeable PW players, live and EMU. I know my profession inside and out, it was literally all i played for 2 years in live and now here in EMU its still my main.

There isnt really crying in this thread, its pointing out a very serious design flaw, intentional or unintentional, and a serious imbalance of profession. No amount of "skill" or "knowledge" of the PW profession can overcome the gimping it has taken. It is and was a nerf, quite simply, and in this environment has relegated the PW class to a second place position for combat.

Can you still fight effectively with a PW? Oh of course you can, no doubt. BUT, right now the JD is outclassing it in every way, especially in raid level content. (except tanking, but lets be quite honest with ourselves, a JE can "tank" if you have a good enough TT or PP charging those shields, honest to god tanking in this game is kinda a joke when you consider how unbelievably OP the healing system is, chain casting max level heals with a martyrs heart and a reactor buff is pretty disgusting compared to other MMOs). I played PvP medic in SWG for years, and believe me, the healing system in this game is nothing compared to the difficulty level of top tier PvP healing in a game of that combat speed. This is sheer easy mode, so the tank role is a red herring at best.

I seek a fix, not a reversal or destruction of the JD class. I want it fair balanced and sensible. The JD should always either rival or come in close second to the PW in terms of overall combat versatility, with the buffer TE a very very close third. Realisically the JD should actually be balanced against the PP and TE as they are the other two 5/4 split professions, and not against the 6/3 split PW in terms of combat DPS and versatility.

PW - 6/3
JD/TE/PP - 5/4
PS/TS/TT/JS - 4/5
JE - 3/6

That should be your model for balancing combat vs support. No class of a lower tier should exceed a class of a tier above in terms of combat capability. Else we might as well just give everyone 6 weaps and 6 devices, level 9 shields, HDC, crit targeting, CC and shield recharge and call it a bloody day. You dont pick a JE or a TS to excel at combat. That isnt their intended design. Why we are so obsessed with equalling the DPS output of the JD to the PW by adding double damage to the CC stealth strike never made sense to me anyway. Under no circumstances should there even be a reason the JD should outdo even the TE or PP, much less the PW. o.o Edited by Ryle

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Oh by the way, someone brought up earlier in the thread about how the JDs sustained DPS is gimped because it has to cloak between firings etc. Most of the beam weapons at tier 9 (especially the most used three) are like 8-10 second refire rates, and with turbo maxed thats what, 5/6 seconds? So basically your cloaking times in between firings... youre still firing as often as you would uncloaked. By the time youve cloaked, your weapons are ready to fire again immediately, with every single salvo using stealth strike damage bonuses. Your "spike" DPS is sustained over time.

Must be nice having the equivalent DPS of 10 uncloaked beams all the time. Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339487287' post='58813']
Oh by the way, someone brought up earlier in the thread about how the JDs sustained DPS is gimped because it has to cloak between firings etc. Most of the beam weapons at tier 9 (especially the most used three) are like 8-10 second refire rates, and with turbo maxed thats what, 5/6 seconds? So basically your cloaking times in between firings... youre still firing as often as you would uncloaked. By the time youve cloaked, your weapons are ready to fire again immediately, with every single salvo using stealth strike damage bonuses. Your "spike" DPS is sustained over time.

Must be nice having the equivalent DPS of 10 uncloaked beams all the time.
[/quote]
The higher reload beams are used to reduce the amount of dps lost to managing cloak, even then they still lose 15% dps from what they could achieve if they didn't have to worry about reload times as Terran/Progen don't.
Beams dps is only 75% of the equivalent Projectiles and Missiles. So 10 of them comes out to:
10 * 75% * (1 - 15%) = 6.375 Projectiles/Missiles
Which is why equally geared a PW will always out-dps them in a sustained fight if they use at least either Inversion or Sap. If they can't then either turbo or looting rights are broken again.

The JD lost nearly(entirely?) all of its fragility in the AI changes, that is what is allowing the feats they're achieving right now.

I am agreed on inserting at least one or more, L7 Shared Scan, See Cloaked mob at each raid. Either the boss itself or the strongest of the non-boss mobs, something that isn't a pushover to kill.

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Hi there is an ez fix for the issue of 1-6 toons of the same player soloing any raid mob. Just have there shilds recharge while they are reciving damage so that you will need high dps of more than a group its that simple . It worked like that in live . Currentlly when a raid mob or any mob is taking dmg there shild does not recharge . What does this mean ? Even a 150 pw with lvl 5 pls but lvl 9 skill and a buff or 2 for acc could do the dps it would take to bring a mobs shields to 0 . With the raid mobs having shilds recharge at a reasonable rate while taking damage would fix this issue ending all of this :). What yall think?
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[quote name='menu' timestamp='1339505971' post='58819']
Hi there is an ez fix for the issue of 1-6 toons of the same player soloing any raid mob. Just have there shilds recharge while they are reciving damage so that you will need high dps of more than a group its that simple . It worked like that in live . Currentlly when a raid mob or any mob is taking dmg there shild does not recharge . What does this mean ? Even a 150 pw with lvl 5 pls but lvl 9 skill and a buff or 2 for acc could do the dps it would take to bring a mobs shields to 0 . With the raid mobs having shilds recharge at a reasonable rate while taking damage would fix this issue ending all of this :). What yall think?
[/quote]
I like this idea. +1.
200% shield recharge maybe we can get the FB back to a 20 man raid !
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339487287' post='58813']
Oh by the way, someone brought up earlier in the thread about how the JDs sustained DPS is gimped because it has to cloak between firings etc. Most of the beam weapons at tier 9 (especially the most used three) are like 8-10 second refire rates, and with turbo maxed thats what, 5/6 seconds? So basically your cloaking times in between firings... youre still firing as often as you would uncloaked. By the time youve cloaked, your weapons are ready to fire again immediately, with every single salvo using stealth strike damage bonuses. Your "spike" DPS is sustained over time.

Must be nice having the equivalent DPS of 10 uncloaked beams all the time.
[/quote]

Thats how you play a Jenquai OMG ! By Using your brain.
I find the Best DPS beams with the mid-level fire Rate like between 6-8 seconds and add a equip turbo buff and you would have used your brain and built a pretty good Jenquai !!

Below was taken from The PvP Tread.
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1338874153' post='58489']
As much as I enjoy the idea of chasing a Jenny all over the galaxy in a open world guild war, i despise the idea of that being abused to gate camp some poor guy who just gated the wrong place wrong time.

Even levels, even gear (if effort is made to obtain it of course), even chances, just skills vs skills man.
[/quote]
Sounds like some bodys scared. :lol: Muhahahah
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Phorlaug, I fear nothing. The CC spam is too exploitable for fair game play at this time. Even with a turn rate of 150 there would be zero chance of turning to fire, and because of the cloak immunity, any ammo that does get fired would do no damage. That is completely broken.

Highest DPS hits in the game AND total immunity to damage? That would be horseshit.

In live, you could pop a cloak. In the EMU you cannot. Before there would be any PvP I would be damn sure to make sure there was a way to break cloaks so this exact thing could not be exploited like it is with mob AI.

Otherwise we will have nothing but a bunch of invisible players never shooting anyone. Reminds me of Spy Wars, aka SWG post 2009. Rest assured this OP skill makes it into the PvP arena and I will only be playing Ninjette in PvP.

It is a broken profession, so dont bother trying to use my words against me, I will shoot holes in it every time on these apples and oranges. That isnt smart playing, thats hitting 1 f 1 f 1 f 1 f. PvP isnt about i-win buttons on unbeatable professions dude. Edited by Ryle

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Anyway to summarize this thread, the three best proposals I think the majority of people agreed on or suggested the most are as follows:

1. Fix the combat cloak damage immunity that Kenu brought up. Any attacks fired before cloaks engage that are enroute, should hit and do at least 1/2 if not full damage.

2. On Raid bosses or any MOB higher in combat level than the Jenquai, give the MOB the ability to see cloaked at least some of the time, roll a check every time the JD/JE recloaks or something. Possibly a base 5 percent per level difference per cloak. Like 20 percent chance at 4 level diff, 50 at 10 diff or something

3. Allow damage to shields to be counted towards chance to interrupt the skill cast. Edited by Ryle

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No way on the chance for higher level to see cloaked, that doesn't just apply to raids. We had that earlier, and the mission to simply learn cloak for the JW was a nightmare. The mission in question requires a OL10 JW to recon the Evil Mushroom, who is guarded by Evil Plants whose CL is higher than the JW's OL. The result was JWs having to forfeit the mission because they couldn't get it done without being repeatedly killed (or a boatload of luck). Would make mining around dangerous things much more dangerous than it is. Cloak is how one can avoid being seen to get to the rock. We still have to face danger when we do any actual mining, as we must drop our cloak to do so. (no I don't think we should be able to mine while cloaked)

Not to mention the JE's mission to get his first HU requires you to talk to a CL50 mob while cloaked. Never saw anyone killed there, but I've not seen anyone decloak during that mission. Not sure that mob shoots.

Also Cloak is not raised on Combat levels but Explore levels. For a Jenquai leveling up, CL should lag behind EL, especially for JEs.

For mobs to see cloaked they should be required to have the Scan skill. Some raid mobs should have the Scan skill, as should most of the V'rix. Other than those aforementioned mobs, most should not be able to see cloaked, unless they're in a "group" or whatever the mob's equivalent of a group is, where at least one member has Scan 5 or better.

Scan, starting at L3 gives some chance to see cloaked, chance increases with higher level of Scan. Scan should not be common in mobs, but there should be a few with the skill.

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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1339379239' post='58659']
Ive seen that 0 damage thing in action. Why is it when the cloak goes up youre invulnerable? Anyone remember Star Trek 6? >.> Pretty sure a cloaked ship takes purty good damage while cloaked. So maybe thats the fix needed. Anything fired at you before cloak is engaged should hit and do full damage when it arrives.
[/quote]

A Cloaked ship only takes damage if they know where its at and has a target lock, Simply move to the side, missiles, Projectiles and Beams go sailing into the distance. Too dam logical for you too grasp ?

I don't see your logic in how a Missile, Projectile or a beam can hit an object when there is no target lock.
Thats like saying "Come and Find me [u]I'll be cloaked[/u], Shoot me"
A missile, PL and a Beam will MISS a target WHEN it Has Lost the Target.
But Then again A smart Progen Player and NPC would install a "SEE CLOAK" item and NONE of this would be an
issue!

The amount of "Increased Manuverability" installed increases the chance of NOT being hit or Critically ! Cloaked or Not!
There ! Another Brilliant Jenquai tactic!

Ok ok, lets do this, for every -1 second you get back for your Shield Sap, we give the Jenquai Defender -1 for their
Energy Leech. And the NPC AI gets fixed. Is that ok with you?

Oh, just un-nerf the PW so he stops his Whining, this is clearly not about the Jenquai Cloak and the NPC AI still not right.
He gos away for a month or two comes back see the "Emu population Declining" and hears the PW Shield Sap timer has changed.
[b] [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6990-emu-population-declining/"]Emu Population Declining?[/url][/b]
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