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War declared on Miners, New solution needed!


7dragoon

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About unbalanced miners.  Yes, combat lags explore and trade, sometimes by a lot.  But explore quite often lags in a warrior, sometimes by a lot.  But the warrior is never killed because his combat is 50 and his explore is only 20.  Yet that is what you are suggesting for miners.

 

About ore field guardians.  Just being hit, even just a little, keeps you from mining.  How small can the guardians be, not how big can they be.  You don't have to kill the botters, just keep them from mining.

 

About risk vs reward.  That is not about mining. Mining get you more experience  at higher levels because it takes more experience to level.  You can not EVER gain explore levels above level 40 by mining level 3 ores.  You get no experience from it.  Mining is much closer to trade runs than it is to combat.  Traders are not interrupted every couple mins on their trade runs to kill a MOB or two.

 

Miners want to mine, not be interrupted every couple mins.  Even my 150 JE does not want to HAVE to stop mining even though he can kill the MOBs.  Warriors are not interrupted to mine or trade every couple mins. They get grumpy when they have to get more ammo or empty their holds.

 

Warriors get to do what they want without being interrupted.  Traders get to do what they want without being interrupted.  Why must miners be attacked for mining?

 

ps. And please don't say group with a warrior.  No warrior wants to go to the Glenn gas fields and kill level 48 manes and pick up the level 2 essence.   Plus, no one else has to group, nor should the miner.

Edited by GenghisBob
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Here is yet another fly in the ointment...

 

Is it OK to use a macro/bot if you are sitting at the computer? (This seems silly but I guess ...if you play several chars. you could want one to mine)

 

If it is OK as stated by the Devs, then we ALL know it will be taken advantage of. Why not just outlaw botting? 

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Simple Google check about macros gives me result of "Gas mining macro" , not anything else why Gas? it is barely used in a few components or ammo with a few exceptions, because Gas mining (due to nature of number of types) takes much lower cargo space and can take more time to fill cargo without docking and there was no guardians in Glenn...

 
No risk of pop-rocks, and iirc slightly better eXp
 

Is it OK to use a macro/bot if you are sitting at the computer? (This seems silly but I guess ...if you play several chars. you could want one to mine)

Yes
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Don't underestimate the ability of macro writers using ACTool to build a very effective combat macro into a mining macro. The ACTool people started using these in Asheron's Call (AC=Asheron Call). The best macro writers wrote scripts that could take down moderately skilled players on the PvP server. Just ask about The Borg monarchy on Darktide server.

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Roid guards are no problem for my JE of course. Personally i find them interresting to *outwit* to get to the ores. I am not interrested in their loot nor in the xp i would get from killing them.

 

For a PS or terran equivalent they proberbly are more of a hassle naturally. Though eventhough i dont know eihter class i assume they to have some skill to *outwit* mobs with no ?

 

And if they do, outwitting mobs without fighting them is, in my book, a relaxed activity too.

So from my limited point of view, these roid guards to battle the anti gaming bot culture has my blessing untill something better comes along.

 

Maybe time stamps on chatchannels so you can screenshot your attempts to contact suspected botters, so that it displays the frequency and timelaps of the contact attempts ?

Those screenshots can then be send to a GM or other correctional authorthy who then has a reasonable source of information on said suspect entity ?

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Don't underestimate the ability of macro writers using ACTool to build a very effective combat macro into a mining macro. The ACTool people started using these in Asheron's Call (AC=Asheron Call). The best macro writers wrote scripts that could take down moderately skilled players on the PvP server. Just ask about The Borg monarchy on Darktide server.

While I applaud the end result of such a programming effort, I don't quite understand the reason to go to all that trouble to not play a game that you are playing?  And it isn't really PvP any longer is it? It is Player v Macro...so end result it is as if there were no PvP at all.

 

I'm Sooooooooooooooo confused.

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Roid guards are no problem for my JE of course. Personally i find them interresting to *outwit* to get to the ores. I am not interrested in their loot nor in the xp i would get from killing them.

 

For a PS or terran equivalent they proberbly are more of a hassle naturally. Though eventhough i dont know eihter class i assume they to have some skill to *outwit* mobs with no ?

 

And if they do, outwitting mobs without fighting them is, in my book, a relaxed activity too.

So from my limited point of view, these roid guards to battle the anti gaming bot culture has my blessing untill something better comes along.

 

Maybe time stamps on chatchannels so you can screenshot your attempts to contact suspected botters, so that it displays the frequency and timelaps of the contact attempts ?

Those screenshots can then be send to a GM or other correctional authorthy who then has a reasonable source of information on said suspect entity ?

 

The Scout doesn't really get an "avoid conflict" Fool the mob type of skill.  We JEs can cloak, can teleport our enemies away (which is more effective if we Coma them first), and PEs can Powerdown (Play dead), Menace the mob and if successful make him run away, or just use his best in profession firepower to kick the mob's teeth in.

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While I applaud the end result of such a programming effort, I don't quite understand the reason to go to all that trouble to not play a game that you are playing?  And it isn't really PvP any longer is it? It is Player v Macro...so end result it is as if there were no PvP at all.

 

I'm Sooooooooooooooo confused.

 

They did it just to prove it could be done. The macros got slaughtered against groups of good players. On the other servers (PvE), there were buff bot macros, crafting macros, and PvE macros that were very good. A player could go into a town and get buffed and get stuff crafted. Quite impressive actually. They even had a market place full of vendor macros where people sold crafted and looted items. After a while, no one on the PvE servers minded, because the gameworld is freaking massive. On the PvP server, we just would kill the bots and loot them...no bot problem. The very good monarchies--i.e., with skilled PvP'ers, killed the bots out of existence eventually. A true hermit could find a good hunting spot and see no one for hours if they desired on PvE though.

 

Our gameworld is not massive, so the bot problem is a real PITA. AC is literally 50 times bigger than EnB, so the bot problem is minimal--the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Not so here I believe. I don't think anyone cares about trade run botting, since trade goods are an infinite resource in our gameworld. Mining macros? You guys suck.

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This is a temporary fix for an ongoing/growing concern of macro mining.

 

I would love to take my JE or PS out and enjoy mining like most other players, but I don't because of the problem we are faced with of macro mining.

 Yes I could log on to my Dev toon and take care of it as I see them, but I'm not on my play acct to shadow players, I am trying to enjoy some game time.

 

Please, keep the sugestions coming. The last thing I want to do, is go through 50 % of the mob spawns and change them.

 The spawns in Glenn got your attention, but we still need a solution that works for everyone.

 

Thanks again for your opinions, and keep them coming.

 

 

Honestly I think its really as simple as you guys are to "soft on punishments"  if I was a macro person and knew if i did get caught the worst I would get for a first offense is a 24 hour ban? Who cares? Woopdie do. Thats what I would be thinking. Hell even a 2nd ban of 48-72 or even a week not a biggie.  But if you give someone 1 warning and then ban them for life I guarentee they would think twice. The reason most people bot right now is because they know they can get away with it and even if they do get caught which they wont for awhile because nobody really reports and no sweeps are really done is they will be right back again.

 

What you SHOULD do in MY opionion is have a 2 strikes rule.  First time you are banned for a week the second time your account is frozen and deleted and you can still make a new account/characters and start fresh but everything you had before is lost. Characters/items etc etc. There needs to be real fear and risk for these people to lose their stuff before they will take the rules serious. I know you dont wanna lose population and ban people for life etc on a growing game but some people just wont learn and examples must be made. This would let you keep the population but deter the cheaters by making hard consequences and long term punishments.

 

I also think attended macroing should be done away with all together. You can't please everyone. Can't have your cake and not eat it.  Nobody using a bot is doing so because they want to play the game and watch a machine play for them. They are doing it so they can go afk etc.  They may pop in and keep an eye on it here and there to check for whispers from a GM etc but they are using it to NOT play the game and get levels. Remove macros all together and outlaw them then do sweeps code. I know for a fact you guys can do sweeps to see whos spamming the same buttons etc and doing patterns.

 

My 2 cents...

Edited by Knight05
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How about an orefield guardian that floats around and attacks nobody, with a little difference, when targetted it shows as a roid in the target window same as a roid or gasbag? When the macro attempts to mine it, <BOOM>!!

 

I know it's silly, just couldn't think of anything better.

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How about an orefield guardian that floats around and attacks nobody, with a little difference, when targetted it shows as a roid in the target window same as a roid or gasbag? When the macro attempts to mine it, <BOOM>!!

 

I know it's silly, just couldn't think of anything better.

That is actually a pretty good idea. In fact, why not use these floating guardians to add a new element to the game. When shot below 80% shield they could reveal their true identity as XYZ boss. If mined, they fire back without revealing themselves. They could be almost as difficult as a raid boss and require a group or two to kill. This would ensure they are powerful enough to wipe out a solo macro miner, but weak enough to be killed by a big gang. Of course the reward would be some  new rare loot or maybe a key to unlock a different raid like FB.

 

Just a comment about balance: I disagree that a warrior can be cl 50 and have no problem with EL and TL at 20. Your shields and reactor will be grossly insufficient. For combat you do need to be more or less balanced. I feel mining should be the same way. Not as extreme as this, but there should be a couple appropriate lvl guardians in each high level field with a 30-40 min spawn. This system worked in live and everyone was fine with it. No need to reinvent the wheel imho.

Edited by Morumbi
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the camel's back has been broken.  Bad mob AI, badly grouped mob levels, mob tethering problems (yes, I got chased 200k across a sector last night), every mob within 5k aggroing, way overpowered emu loot, badly and even distribution of ore fields, non-working skills, not even close to balanced mob loot trade xp, lack of trade missions, reliance on jobs as game content, destroying trade skills for the average player.....I could deal with it all (and yes, I complained about each and every one to no avail).

 

However sticking manes in the glenn gas fields?  I am done.  Have fun folks....the last four years have been a blast.

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Up until last night, I've been using Glenn (specifically the asteroid
ring around nav Asteroid GP-X18) as a safe ore field. I'd go there to
relax, mine some ore, and watch something (usually The Simpsons or
Futurama) on a secondary monitor. It was a zen experience. I'd get some
XP, get some ore to sell, watch some stuff. It was great. Now, there are
a half dozen L45 manes hanging around there, and I can't peacefully
mine there. I understand the need to curb botting and macro mining, but
is this really the way to do it? I thought that that's what poprocks
were for. Sometimes I'll accidentally open one, and a L41 nasty will pop
out, and make me stay away from that field for a while. The roids
around GP-X21 have nothing around them, and GP-X30 has L12 Abnormal
Moles. While they wouldn't be a match for an actual player, a botter or a
macro miner would have a hard time pulling ore with a bunch of those
guys ganging up on him. Were those L45 manes absolutely necessary? I
would mine there and use the proceeds from that to fund my builder's
analyses, and I can't do that any more. Glenn is supposed to be a safe
area (at least, in the game's canon). It's for pleasure cruises and
gambling. The most dangerous stuff is the Chavez base near nav Glenn 6,
and they only go up to L28. I really think that a half dozen L45 manes
are overkill, especially considering the fact that I've never seen a
botter or a macro miner at this particular field, and
aside from the odd L8 rock, it's mostly L5-7 ores. Nothing that
warrants the kind of force applied. I'm all for banning botters and
unattended macro miners, but for a mid-lv field like the ones around
GP-X18, it seems like too much. You've taken my zen haven and turned it
into a deathtrap. With all the actual issues that need dealing with in
this game (the gate crashes and warp issues, not to mention the
terminals freezing and eating items), is dropping massive monsters in a
peaceful field really a priority? You also moved the Sharim
Archaeologists. What purpose did that serve? I liked mining with them
around, wondering what it was they were researching. Maybe they were
looking for the missing link, and it was in one of the rocks I was
kerploding. I just wanted to lodge a formal complaint about the
placement of those manes. I don't expect this post to actually change
anything, but it would be nice to be able to peacefully mine at my
favorite ore field without having to do the touch-and-go mining that's
usually reserved for sectors that are actually supposed to be
dangerous...

Edited by Ghinn
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I don't think manes make ideal ore field guardians, for reasons already stated.
I would set up new mobs with the sole purpose of being field guardians. A few good ideas have already been suggested. Here is my list of how I would do it.
1. Copy an existing low aggression mob (doesn't have to attack everything in sector).
2. Replace most weapons with fast firing long range EMP beams. These should interrupt bot mining nicely.
3. Tweak AI to only fire none-emp weapons if attacked (shields below X%).
4. Add hack engine skill and set rate to spam (faster than duration so bot miners get stuck in place).
5. Alter loot table to lean towards items used in popular prospecting setups.
6. Tweak AI to trigger aggression on mining.
7. Tweak AI not to follow someone thrusting away.
8. Tweak AI to deaggro after X seconds if the target does not mine, attack or gets out of range.

With this setup, guard mobs could be of an appropriate level without being much of a threat to people.
People will learn fast not to mine in their proximity.
Boting efficiency will drop to 0 upon encountering one of these mobs unless very complicated macros are employed.
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i am a miner as well and i despise botters as much as the next guy. But glenn gas fields are huge and i have mined there while botters were pecking away at the clouds as well, and they never bothered me, except on occasion we warp to the same  cloud and both try to mine it at same time, which i have actually done to a non botter as well and we just warp away to the next roid or cloud  thinking the other guy is gonna mine it. I mine faster than the botter anyways, and so do other  non botters, and the one quote about scanning for  repeated keystrokes isnt too smart, no offense there but  my mining is thus follows,,,,, D,Q,Mine,,,,,D,Q,Mine.  i do that for hours. Glenn  gas clouds area is well stocked with gasses and respawn fairly quickly, so there seriously is enough clouds for everyone.  allowing macro use in the first place is always going to  cause drama in any game.  just get rid of all macroing usage all together. whether its AFK or Attended,  But no, that will upset others as well especially the ones who, sad to say  macro while at work but is not AFK doing so because has limited play time to level, or have to attend to the kids or whatever. 

 

so i guess what im saying is complaining about botters really necessary?  i mean  honestly unless they are doing something like Rs'ing (roid stealing) if they are you just warp to next target. it really is one small  simple extra step that makes sense, i see botters as non aggro mobs, you adapt and work around them, i am more concerned about other more important stuff like drop rates and overusage of mob skills that are still being tweeked and server stability, the list can go on forever, so really it is just like a double edged sword,  yer damned if you do, yer damned if ya don't. remember this is just a game folks its not real life, no animals were harmed in making this  kind of  mindset, please  just relax, life is stressfull enough do we need stress in a game that  is easy enough to adapt to and work around? hopefully yall get what im saying, its really just not that important enough to get bent out of shape over. i mean honestly "Teacher/Dev he stole my roid/cloud without actually being there" im sorry but thats like Kindergarden mentality like kids throwing sand at each other in the sandbox or taking the other kids toy, complaining sometimes works, but then it eventually bites you in the ass later on, and now everyone suffers in the end.

 

thanks for reading this

let the flaming begin

 

Gally.

Edited by Zebalba
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let the flaming begin end.

Gally.

 

Fixed!  :lol:

 

There were some good ideas in the thread so far, so i'm sure we will find a good solution soon(tm).

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At the very least, change the MOBs so they drop something worth the time to kill them.  But manes???  The manes concentrators don't work yet so totally worthless.  (or is that the point?)

 

As mentioned, there are also combat bots and trade running bots.  Target them also.

 

A MOB could pull traders out of warp at a random point and they would have to kill a level 48 Manes to continue.  Actually just pulling out of warp at a random point would stop/confuse most bots (for awhile).

 

For combat bots, a MOB, maybe different colored, would use fold space/summon like ability to send the player to a gravity field.

 

These events would be about as disruptive to traders and warriors as ore guardians are to miners. 

 

Would they stand for it or leave in droves.  Why to miners have to put up with it???

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Anybody that mines on a regular basis knows how repetitive and time consuming it can be, and for such tiny xp rewards, its no wonder some prefer tours or jobs, much faster and easier then mining to lvl a toon, if it wasn't for the pure enjoyment or to gather needed ore I don't see the point of it.

Fortunately at the moment we have a few options, if you choose to hump it out, especially for us older kids with issues, you will need an assortment of mining devices to aid your goal, I have included a partial list of the most common that I use, you may consider getting them even if you don't feel that you need them but just in case, its better to have and not need then to need and not have.

 

[attachment=2493:mining equipment.JPG]

 

Another option may be mining bots, they wont make you miner of the month, do to the fact that no matter how good they are they cant even come close to the performance

of a well equipped miner, (again, see list above for needed devices) but you can get the desired fix of enjoyment you crave for without the side affects, but remember, 

unattended macros is a banable offense and if some people have it there way all bots will be illegal, so enjoy them while they last.

 

beep beep

     

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Just cleared most of (already cherry picked on ammo ores by others) GP-X18 without a single mane interruption and not a single shot of my beams firing...

 

Not that I'm proud of it or see it as achievement, it is just I can not see what's the fuss about "crossover" styles...

Edited by SiSL
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The big problem with the manes in Glenn is that Glenn was always a safe mining spot, in a galaxy full of dangerous ones. Different people mine in different ways, and there are PLENTY of places where being discreet and fast are necessary. That was never the case in Glenn. GP-X18 was a safe field, where one could whittle away a few hours casually mining. The fact that the rocks around there were cherry picked means that people aren't sticking around anymore because of the manes. They're getting what they need and high-tailing it out of there. With guardians like that, you're gonna see more and more of that happening. I just tried to mine there and three manes started heading right towards me, extremely fast. It's no longer a casual mining area, and I maintain that a show of force like that is completely unwarranted. Why not just permaban the IPs of people who are caught and call it a day? I can't imagine that there are so many people botting that it will have any actual effect on the game, but if that's where you want to concentrate your efforts, punish them, not the people who actually enjoy playing. I'm not a powerminer. I don't pull exclusively high-lv ore. I can't defend myself against anything stronger than the L12 moles around GP-X30. I just like relaxing and clicking the pretty rocks, and I can no longer do that without fear.

Edited by Ghinn
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While I do think there should be some orefield guardians in most high level fields, I think Yendor has the right idea.  They should take a good amount of time to respawn, and should be something an explorer can handle one on one if played well.   Orefield guardians should generally have poor to average scan ranges, low altruism, and they should lack the ability to see cloaked.    Loot tables should be interesting, and comparable to mobs of similar level

 

I would say that if you have a very small L9 pure orefield then one or two guardians is enough.  If you have bigger fields spread out over more area, then more guardians as the field gets bigger, but most time spent by explorers should be mining, not fighting.  The 2 pure L9 fields in BBW in EnB Origins had mostly CL51 Splendid manes guarding it, though it had the occasional CL53, and the rare CL56.  They were relatively small, and I never saw it having more than 3 guardians at one time.  With a low sig a well played JE could mine around them, hadn't tried it with a PE as Torrie was too small in EnB Origins. 

 

Generally speaking, I would think that explorers, especially JEs and Scouts would tend to let their CL trail behind their EL and TL, since that's the harder bar to fill for most explorers.  Spillover is sometimes more efficient.

 

I don't think the warriors protecting miners works here, especially where Manes guard the orefields.  Nothing worth their time or ammo in the drops.  Interesting loot tables for Pop-rock mobs would be a nice addition as well. 

I would add that other methods of dealing with guardians should be effective too, such as scan-blinding. This gives players the option of "clevering" their way to victory, instead of having to have the CL to brute-force it. I have often led mobs away from hulks/loots using cloak / reveal and warped back to get the prize once they are far enough away, but that's pretty time consuming and a basic tactic. I'd like to see more "cool" ways to deal with guardians.

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I would add that other methods of dealing with guardians should be effective too, such as scan-blinding. This gives players the option of "clevering" their way to victory, instead of having to have the CL to brute-force it. I have often led mobs away from hulks/loots using cloak / reveal and warped back to get the prize once they are far enough away, but that's pretty time consuming and a basic tactic. I'd like to see more "cool" ways to deal with guardians.

 

Totally agree, in ST4, I've teleported them away, after hitting them with a Coma device.  That worked back then, haven't tried it yet in Live, but I will be doing that in the future if it still works.

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I wanted to throw in a piece here, this is not necessarily a good way of doing things; however, because this game is not a pay to play. If a person is botting then they are given 2 warnings.  After that delete the account, if that is taking it too far then delete the toon. This will solve the problem very quickly because that person will not want to spend countless hours re-leveling a toon and bot and have it deleted or the account deleted.  Deleting the account would go further by removing all the other toons that the bot is helping. Then again people could make an account with only a bot. Wither way it gets rid of the bot for a while and if they are tempted to do it again a quick delete of the toon takes care of it.

 

JustUs

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