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Give The Terrans Something To Actually Do In Combat

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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1341021543' post='59844']
Terrans were designed by Westwood be ranged. Not in close (Jen) or mid-range (Progen) but the guys that could kite almost anything in the game given enough skill and room. With top level gear this range was huge.....and for some mobs it made them very very easy. But there were a whole host of mobs that if a terran got too close they got dead. I think people are seeing the result of mobs not being ramped up and assuming that terrans are too powerful.....but so are progen and jen in my experience. Even being surrounded by Ten-gu there really isnt much of a challenge if you have a trader and a few warriors. Until the devs get into fixing/balancing mobs, for all levels, this will remain a "OMG, ***class**** is overpowered!" but this is due to the EMU not being done yet.....not bad game or class design.

Trust me, you do not want to be a TE capped at 5k range and try to solo the CL 60 Terran ship in Luna that, in Live, dropped the Type A ML and Supernova reactor. It had huge range, was deadly fast, and got assistance from the gate turret if you got in range of it. This was an epic battle even if your TE was crazy geared. There are a ton of mobs that have a lot of skills that make kiting difficult for a terran. Just wait until they start balancing the mobs......and watch out when they add mobs that can scan blind (gazers), grav link (voltoi, ten-gu), and warp (gazers, riders, high level bogeril, etc)........then yer gonna equip a supernova and Eagle Wing and every other speed device you can get yer hands on. ^_^
[/quote]

Or, and this is what I observe from everyone but Progens at this point, Terrams will simply kite easy mobs for xps and loot until they're 150 and can go raiding.

The fact that there are some things that are a challenge doesn't mean Terranss are balanced. I agree there's a lot of changes to be made, and I expect Jenq and Progens to get some nerfs too.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1341024493' post='59845']
Or, and this is what I observe from everyone but Progens at this point, Terrams will simply kite easy mobs for xps and loot until they're 150 and can go raiding.

The fact that there are some things that are a challenge doesn't mean Terranss are balanced. I agree there's a lot of changes to be made, and I expect Jenq and Progens to get some nerfs too.
[/quote]

I don't think Jen or Terrans are balanced. There are several threads running about insta cloak jen soloing raid mobs and PWs that cant handle more than two mobs. But the fact is that mobs are definitely not balanced at all. I would rather the Devs start by ensuring the mobs are all working correctly rather than looking at changing class mechanics. One big part, that was present in Live, but I don't see in the EMU, is the reactor issues terrans had. With all the jen alts, buffs, and power leveling I don't think we really see terrans fighting with reactors that run dry like I experienced in Live while leveling. Those 10 levels increments, after getting an ML upgrade until my reactor would catch up, were tough going. Add all the items that reduce weapon energy cost (pride devices, L5 onyx ogun) or that give instant shunts (Nero and Warrior reactor lines, shield energy transfer, marty'rs heart) and they take the 'weakness' that the terrans had in Live and make it go 'bye, bye'.

There are a few ways, I think, to balance out Terran kiting but I don't think any of them are that good on their own. In Live terrans could solo kite and kill mobs a lot higher than their level. Some could argue that the Terrans are the 'easy mode' class but as such don't perform as well in combat (and now mining) but to counter that they could kite mobs much easier than the other two races. The devs could slightly increase ML energy cost or give mobs, that are being attacked by significantly lower players, a long range reactor debuff. "You want to fight mobs 10+ levels over your CL then you better bring a Jen along to give you more energy." Unfortunately I think even that idea is pretty easy to get around since there are so many ways around reactor recharge problems.....at least for players that have some experience. It may be quite different for players that have never played the EMU before and use a terran class.....I just don't know.

Realistically I think the best way to really stop terrans from kiting mobs way over their CL is to give mobs a bonus defense vs MLs, if the difference in CL is more than a certain amount or, and I think this was how Westwood balanced it in live....to a certain degree; really increase the miss chance of ML weapons so that the miss rate goes up by (these are just examples as I have no clue how Westwood balanced this) 25% when the mob was 5 CL higher, 50% miss rate at 8 CLs higher, and anything 10+ levels higher terrans couldn't do enough damage to counter the mobs shield recharge. I know in Live I would kite mobs 5-8 CLs over my level but my reactor took a pounding and my xp per minute numbers were awful. I do think the answer is in balancing and not re-designing the class or nerfing the weapons/skills/play style though.

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"Realistically I think the best way to really stop Terrans from kiting mobs way over their CL is to give mobs a bonus defense vs MLs" (Crighton). That is effectively the same thing. The only difference, is all players would be effected by [b][u]distance[/u][/b] in our proposals. This statement implies a change to all missile using characters at any distance.

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[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1341037372' post='59859']
<snip> for brevity
[/quote]
[quote name='Logane' timestamp='1341056869' post='59874']
<snip> for brevity
[/quote]

I agree with what both of you are saying, and Crichton's remark about mobs is a good point. We're all on about how to balance the combat, it's just that there are 3 completely different playstyles hard-coded by race, and only one set of mobs. But those are all over the place on range and speed, so it's a fair mess to even try to sort out.

I did make this post just to see if one concept for one race would fly as a solution. Playtesting a TE and helping other TEs find good exps in the last few days has me thinking that the Terrans are going to be hardest to balance. Cloak and mob AI with regard to it are two connected issues, so the Jenq issues are all in a box to be looked at. Progens have a single playstyle with clearly defined mechanics, and when they vary from it their ships limit them, so their balance is all contained in another box.

But the range advantage for Terrans puts them literally right out of the box. How do you adjust mobs to fight something that, as Crichton said, were designed to NOT be fought at all? (I'm limiting my scope to non-raid mobs, as those have special capabilities). Even with a CL limit as Crichton suggests, isn't there supposed to be risk in fighting at all? Or, is adding a buff to all mobs even realistically possible? I have heard that mobs need to be adjusted MANUALLY, and if so, that seems like a pretty crazy amount of work.

I think that's why I and Log have a focus is on adjusting the Terran playstyle. We're looking for a push-button solution instead of trying to balance the entire game's worth of combat content around them, and still keep it balanced for the other two races. There's got to be some way that Terrans can use missiles and still be at risk of losing a fight.

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Weapons already auto-miss above a certain CL gap, and maybe it does need tightening or reworking, but the problem is that at max level we have to be able to hit mobs 16 CL's above us, and since weapon skill caps at +1 when maxed, that leaves a lot of room for lower level toons who can get +3 or more SL's on their weapon skill to easily hit mobs high above their level.

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A TW using any of his skill set is gonna get hit by the mob. The skill ranges are all short in order to put the TW in harms way. Sure they can kite, and in doing so it takes much longer to kill the mob than it would a PW or JD, and missiles are expensive. Any Terran worth his salt is always worried about credits. ;)
Lets remember, the TW is a hybrid warrior, part warrior, part trader. Don't believe me? Read the Prima guide on the characters of each class. All Terrans have always been long range combatants, using speed to avoid damage.
I think of all the classes in game atm, the TW is prolly closest to what they were in live.

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[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1341074864' post='59901']

Lets remember, the TW is a hybrid warrior, part warrior, part trader. Don't believe me? Read the Prima guide on the characters of each class. All Terrans have always been long range combatants, using speed to avoid damage.
I think of all the classes in game atm, the TW is prolly closest to what they were in live.
[/quote]

thx at least one other sees it the same way i do..

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Here's an idea based on my playtest. Change MLs so they lock and fire like any other weapons - from the front. You can target and turn them on autofire, but they won't fire unless you turn to face the target for a moment.

I found in my test above (using beams with both the JE and the beginning TE) that it was the timing and manueverability when I turned to get the shot off that determined whether I took hits or not. If I was good, I got away untouched. If I messed up, I got hit and it was up to my speed to get me back out of range.

It was easier than it sounds though. The client shoots for you, all you have to do is execute a circle at the right range and with the right timing.

This benefits manueverable ships, which is supposed to be a Terran strength but is meaningless now. It adds at least a basic element of skill to Terran play, and it works well with the longer-cycle time / harder-hitting weapons suggestion. It still supports kiting as well, as your cycle time determines how long you have until it's time to turn again.

And frankly, it makes sense. Homing missiles generally use their own targeting to lock onto a target before they're fired. Having them just shoot from any direction at any time is way off of even fictional technology.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1341118335' post='59949']
Here's an idea based on my playtest. Change MLs so they lock and fire like any other weapons - from the front. You can target and turn them on autofire, but they won't fire unless you turn to face the target for a moment.

I found in my test above (using beams with both the JE and the beginning TE) that it was the timing and manueverability when I turned to get the shot off that determined whether I took hits or not. If I was good, I got away untouched. If I messed up, I got hit and it was up to my speed to get me back out of range.

It was easier than it sounds though. The client shoots for you, all you have to do is execute a circle at the right range and with the right timing.

This benefits manueverable ships, which is supposed to be a Terran strength but is meaningless now. It adds at least a basic element of skill to Terran play, and it works well with the longer-cycle time / harder-hitting weapons suggestion. It still supports kiting as well, as your cycle time determines how long you have until it's time to turn again.

And frankly, it makes sense. Homing missiles generally use their own targeting to lock onto a target before they're fired. Having them just shoot from any direction at any time is way off of even fictional technology.
[/quote]
I can see that in being a problem, because your talking about taking away the best Terran tactical advantage...

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Heck I usually kite in reverse anyway.

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[quote name='Sleven.' timestamp='1341118821' post='59950']
I can see that in being a problem, because your talking about taking away the best Terran tactical advantage...
[/quote]

Well, I'm not sure why Terrans need all of those tactical advantages to win. Up there I posted a technique that doesn't need a 360 degree firing arc, and I did it with short-range beams against superior CL opponents (with the same weapons). With ML range, its way easier, you have whole kilometers of closing time to make your firing ... turn, I guess. Your range is way superior to beams and projectiles, and equivalent or superior to any other mobs missile range (disregarding raid mobs again, tuning those is easier than tuning the whole rest of the game to avoid tuning them).

And I should point out, missile-firing mobs would also have this altered, so the six o'clock position would apply to everything. That would sort out a major issue with balancing mobs against the different races, as now the races weaker in combat can use their blind-spot tactics against missile mobs as well.

And to me (remember this is imo only) it was a lot more fun than putting on cruise control and listening to the hypnotic sound of missile spam. My test TE now has missiles and it's boring old kite mode for exps again. Nobody gets a shot at me, ever, and its' just an exps / ammo costs over time function again.


*Just a note, I'm still doing a modified version of the firing-run tactic with my Jenq. No CC, follow, fire, CC, fire, loot for me. Instead, I kite the mobs off of the spawn, CC, and turn in for a run as the mobs are turning away. The weapons autofire at max range and if I time the speed right, I get the second CC-buffed shot at point-blank range.

Then instead of turning away or cloaking, I overrun into their blind spot, reverse for a third shot and overrun again while they're turning, then while they're turning yet again to get their weapons on me, fly uncloaked out of range to keep the kite going. If I do it right, I take a couple of shots on the way in and none at all during the overruns and disengagement.

Only if I do it wrong (fail to hit the blind spot, fail to turn the right way to stay in the blind spot during the backshot, or fail to get out of range before they can get me in their firing arc) does my shield even feel the hits. No problemo at all, even with a group chasing me I'm owning them one at a time.

But I know. Hitting follow and cycling CC and firing is more efficient, and I can just sit in the middle of the group and kill them all one-by-one with no risk. Therefore my exps and loot over time ratio is much better and I could be proud of myself for getting the most out of my playtime (I guess).

But the first rule of a game "be fun to play", and flying my ship as if it's actually in combat is hella more fun that just pushing the buttons in the least-effort / most-rewards manner.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1341155943' post='59966']
*Just a note, I'm still doing a modified version of the firing-run tactic with my Jenq. No CC, follow, fire, CC, fire, loot for me. Instead, I kite the mobs off of the spawn, CC, and turn in for a run as the mobs are turning away. The weapons autofire at max range and if I time the speed right, I get the second CC-buffed shot at point-blank range.

Then instead of turning away or cloaking, I overrun into their blind spot, reverse for a third shot and overrun again while they're turning, then while they're turning yet again to get their weapons on me, fly uncloaked out of range to keep the kite going. If I do it right, I take a couple of shots on the way in and none at all during the overruns and disengagement.

Only if I do it wrong (fail to hit the blind spot, fail to turn the right way to stay in the blind spot during the backshot, or fail to get out of range before they can get me in their firing arc) does my shield even feel the hits. No problemo at all, even with a group chasing me I'm owning them one at a time.

But I know. Hitting follow and cycling CC and firing is more efficient, and I can just sit in the middle of the group and kill them all one-by-one with no risk. Therefore my exps and loot over time ratio is much better and I could be proud of myself for getting the most out of my playtime (I guess).

But the first rule of a game "be fun to play", and flying my ship as if it's actually in combat is hella more fun that just pushing the buttons in the least-effort / most-rewards manner.
[/quote]
Such tactics were feasible and used before mobs began instantly turning on us to shoot, but that's not a tactic for missiles, its a tactic for beams and projectiles.
Missiles are also currently denied one of their tactics due to how mobs turn though. There's a reason terran's have access to the Satyr devices, so with their high speed and maneuverability they can run circles around a mob without ever getting in their line of site, while close enough to use their skills, and shooting them without facing them. This currently isn't possible, because mob's don't turn, they just count to a number and instantly face you where ever you are, reducing their maneuverability will increase the count, but they will always get a shot off every time the count finishes.

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[quote name='will' timestamp='1341160748' post='59968']
Such tactics were feasible and used before mobs began instantly turning on us to shoot, but that's not a tactic for missiles, its a tactic for beams and projectiles.
Missiles are also currently denied one of their tactics due to how mobs turn though. There's a reason terran's have access to the Satyr devices, so with their high speed and maneuverability they can run circles around a mob without ever getting in their line of site, while close enough to use their skills, and shooting them without facing them. This currently isn't possible, because mob's don't turn, they just count to a number and instantly face you where ever you are, reducing their maneuverability will increase the count, but they will always get a shot off every time the count finishes.
[/quote]

Actually I'm seeing turning action on everything I fight. I've been making them turn and using my maneuverability to make them stop and turn the other way just to get more time in their blind spot. I had no idea there were "countdown-spin" mobs. I would expect those to be fixed up though, the devs have said there's a lot to be done with mobs.

Re missile versus beam / projectile tactics, I have to disagree. Real-world missile tactics are to point the missile at the target so it can acquire its own lockon, then shoot it. They're exactly like beam and projectile tactics in EnB (which in the real world are typically mounted on turrets).

EnB's missile tactics are not like that because of the 360 lock-on, but I'm proposing they should be for the sake of better gameplay.


I have found one big problem with my proposal, but since it affects every combat in game, I'm making it a separate suggestion.
Edit: actually, I think it's a bug. The thing where anything fired hits at any range, even after warping off. I think this is the major underlying factor in Terrans not wanting to come within range at all. If you can't outrun what's fired at you, then hit-and-away combat, regardless of the range, is the same as tanking. Fix this bug and Terrans will be the champs of hit-and-away tactics.

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Give mobs 15 speed per CL... im telling ya...

that way at cl 35 or so its already impossible to kite them in reverse, and starting at CL60 it would be nigh impossible for anything but a NoS equipped player to outrun going forward (and completely impossible for CL66) Edited by Ryle

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In Live my TE had about 15K sight, and ML range to match. The range on ML's is nothing like it was in Live. 7K or less for ML's? That's not good. My favorite tactic was to lock, fire, and warp to the mob. Fire a second salvo. Both salvos would hit about the same time. That was the tactic you had to use. TE's are not tanks. I would rather have more range like in Live.

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There never was the equipment to reach those stats you mention in Live or otherwise.

Not sure where do you get that memory from.

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There was a bug with JEs that allowed them to put on their buff and leave it forever at one point. That would get you up to almost 15K sight range, but no equipment combination that I see that could provide that much range with it. I remember barely breaching 9K even with some of the best gear Terrans could get.

 

At any rate, most of what was described there has always been controlled by the equipment. Most of the calculations are about the same or as close as we could get them. We are not stunting anyone's damage of any way in which i'm aware other than perhaps some equipment not being available. Terrans are meant to be the middle ground between Progen and Jenquai who have different play styles. Therefore it makes sense that they are nearly what they are today. Terrans were about speed and $ first and foremost.

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Yeah and that speed differentiation was killed with the Nitrous Oxide System... just saying ;)

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You have to consider that this game is an emulator. We have to stick within the bounds of the original game. Ideas like this are neat, and yours is well conceived and well meant, but not possible along with all other ideas requiring game code or engine changes.

 

I suggest team work.  In original EnB a TW or TT were often the "center" of a combat formation... it wasn't just a spot reserved for a PW to tank and shoot.  Missile kiting allowed the whole group to stay at range while TT/JE healed and JW cloaked and folded enemies back away to max range.  Use teammates, don't just solo.  You are always missing out on very valueable gameplay in EnB by going solo, and will always end up frustrated by something you can't do alone.... at least not as well as you could do in a team.  EnB was built around that concept - coop play and teamwork instead of pure PvP all the time.

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On 3/25/2017 at 3:25 PM, Royal said:

In Live my TE had about 15K sight, and ML range to match. The range on ML's is nothing like it was in Live. 7K or less for ML's? That's not good. My favorite tactic was to lock, fire, and warp to the mob. Fire a second salvo. Both salvos would hit about the same time. That was the tactic you had to use. TE's are not tanks. I would rather have more range like in Live.

...nope, not without a JE or JW present with you.  Terran missile max range was always longer than their sight range, again... like my above post, making it essential to have a teammate around.

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On 3/26/2017 at 5:02 AM, efialtis said:

There never was the equipment to reach those stats you mention in Live or otherwise.

Not sure where do you get that memory from.


Maybe, but we weren't the ones who broke that.;)

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Probably you wanted to quote my comment for NOS :)

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3 hours ago, efialtis said:

Probably you wanted to quote my comment for NOS :)


I did indeed, but I answered quickly. Clicked the wrong quote link.

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Do you mean the NOS was proposed by players? Well thats another reason you shouldn't take all player suggestions at face value until you can determine they go against fundamental game design. (letting a TS being able to get Lyle's mission since bogerils hate terrans)

Shield recharge (of mobs and players) is the biggest change from EA live that i don't like the most. With the original constant recharge you would have avoided a host of problems with tackling raids or boss mobs since you'd have to be able to outdamage their huge shield recharge.

Ofcourse there is no way to prove the shield recharge being either way (constant or like its done now) even with screenshots.

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Nah, NOS was in the original game, RD Base drop. I might listen to player ideas and suggestions but they don't make it in verbatim. We have to consider all the other game mechanics when we add new items. It's a fairly rare occurrence, the vast majority of items there today are from a collection of live database exports we had from various player sites that were around during the live game.

 

Also: Bogeril hate Terran Enforcers because Terran Enforcers are constantly killing them. They don't just hate Terrans in general, they dislike the others by association primarily.

 

constant recharge? clarify please. I believe the shield system we have now came from a combination of the original design documents and patch notes that were collected from the live site to define how they worked with a tad bit of balancing.

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