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Give The Terrans Something To Actually Do In Combat

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As the recent combat cloaking / past PW nerf debate has raged, I repeatedly heard people compare both of those exploits to Terran missile kiting.

As a former TE player, I had to agree. I was able to solo anything I could carry enough ammo for, and frankly I was bored to tears doing it.

Even though this is very early days for gameplay suggestions, I have one that I think will cure both problems. I recall hearing about a weapon range / damage adjustment (that was applied to beams I think?). Well, it makes perfect sense that when a missile explodes, the propellent left is added to the damage. So missiles that hit at short range should do more damage than missiles that hit at long range, right?

So in order to get full damage from missiles, a missle-user should be making attack runs, closing to moderate range, firing, then turning and zooming back out to set up for another run. Right?

Well I think so, and so I propose using that range/damage mechanic to make missiles fired at 50% or less range do full damage, 50% to 75% range do 50% damage, and over 75% do 25% damage. This change means that when soloing, the Terrans will need to use their ships' speed and manueverability to get max damage from their weapons. When executed properly, the damage done by an attack run should be exactly the same as done now, so it's not a nerf per se. Executed improperly, and the Terran could be in weapons range long enough to take damage, maybe serious damage if the mob has the ability to rush.

So this puts an undeniable element of skill into playing Terrans, and it sounds like a lot more fun than just circling around with weapons on autofire. Terran ships are built for speed and turn rate, so this is actually seems like something they're meant to do. And since the game engine calculates damage at the time of firing, it will support this tactic reliably.

How this would affect other things:
When grouping, you typically support a shorter-ranged tank, so Terrans ought be within 50% range anyways. So this change should not affect the damage output in group combat (can't speak for raiding though, haven't raided in this game yet). Please comment if this is not true?

Since the missiles still do damage up to max range, they still work just as well for pulling. You just won't get full alpha strike damage, so Terrans will likely pull with a single missile instead of full volleys.

The negatives:
The only one I can think of is that there's no indicator for 50%/75% range, so that will be up to the pilot to watch. It's easy to know though, the range is listed on the weapon.

The end:

I know this changes things up, but it specifically eliminates any complaints of easy-mode Terrans and exploits, and it doesn't nerf damage output at all. It does force soloists to demonstrate skill in piloting in order to get the same result, and having been a TE, I think that's a good thing.

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25% damage at maximum range would be pretty harsh. That's a bigger penalty than what happens to beams when used at max range. Beams do full damage under 50% range, then the damage tapers off to 50% at maximum range.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1339617690' post='58911']
25% damage at maximum range would be pretty harsh. That's a bigger penalty than what happens to beams when used at max range. Beams do full damage under 50% range, then the damage tapers off to 50% at maximum range.
[/quote]

True, but the exact number really isn't important in my mind. I just said 25% because it's a logical extension, and it's a figure low enough so that people will *probably* not think it worth using 4x the ammo just to kite as they do now.

I have a new Terran char so I'll goof with the tactic and see how it works. I'm pretty sure the turbo speed devices are tailor-made for this kind of thing. However, it also might just be too much work to do effectively, especially with the faster missile reload times on PM equipment.

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I will have to disagree with this proposition.

Missiles have the warhead and the propulsion system just like the way you imply.

The problem with your thinking is that the warhead is calculated to do a certain amount of damage upon impact (yield). Whatever propulsion element is present at that moment just adds to that yield of the warhead and is usually insignificant in comparison.

All in all missiles will do, for the sake of argument, X + (0-2%) damage and never less than what are they supposed to.
I hope you see where i'm going with this.

Besides, Terrans were meant to play this way (Kitting). As it is right now, with the NOS device available to all willing to put a bit of effort, there is absolutely nothing to justify the speed advantage Terrans should have upon all others. If i cant differentiate my TE from a PW whats the point?

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50% range = full dmg would mean maxed lvl and good equiped Terrans would run closer to Mobs as a PW to hit 100% (8k roundabout would be 4k). PW have more hull cap and hull damage control (2 SP = 50% compared to TE) and thier playstyle is ment to sit and burn ammo. The Terran was ment to kite and i dont want to see what a TS with lvl 8 shields would get if he has to run close to mobs to get dmg to em.. If something like that would get into game i'd say the TE would be the most not played Damage Dealer ingame.
If something like that would be implemented it would be interesting playstyle but [u]only[/u] if the Server counts at what speed a Terran is moving and gives [u]massive[/u] penalty to the hit modifiers on enemy's (would fit a TS with afterburn well).

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IMO, beam damage over long distances would drop off due to scattering of the beam so I can buy into that. Damage from projectiles and missiles are based on payload impact with the target and propellant has little to due with damage dealt. Perhaps miss rate might be increased at max range instead. The result would be the same but much more realistic.

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[quote name='Efialtis' timestamp='1339652630' post='58923']
I will have to disagree with this proposition.

Missiles have the warhead and the propulsion system just like the way you imply.

The problem with your thinking is that the warhead is calculated to do a certain amount of damage upon impact (yield). Whatever propulsion element is present at that moment just adds to that yield of the warhead and is usually insignificant in comparison.

All in all missiles will do, for the sake of argument, X + (0-2%) damage and never less than what are they supposed to.
I hope you see where i'm going with this.

Besides, Terrans were meant to play this way (Kitting). As it is right now, with the NOS device available to all willing to put a bit of effort, there is absolutely nothing to justify the speed advantage Terrans should have upon all others. If i cant differentiate my TE from a PW whats the point?
[/quote]

The theory isn't the point, it's not a realistic universe, it's a sci-fi game. So whatever justification works for the mechanic is fine by me.


If Terrans were intended to kite, the developers made a serious design error. It was early days and maybe they didn't understand some of the core concepts in gaming, one of which is that nobody ever gets to win without risk.

Today we know that kiting is equivalent in effect to an exploit such as taking advantage of mob pathing to get them stuck and then killing them from beyond their range. Rewards must have risks involved in getting them, or there's a problem with the mechanic.

And if you think I don't know kiting, my main class in my first graphical MMO was Druid in EQ1. The term kiting was invented there to describe what some players did with the Druid class, and that method was acknowledged as an unintended playstyle and (eventually) nerfed into the ground to restore game balance.


Re the equivalent speeds, what's the point of a NOS in combat for other races? I'm honestly asking.

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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1339659055' post='58925']
50% range = full dmg would mean maxed lvl and good equiped Terrans would run closer to Mobs as a PW to hit 100% (8k roundabout would be 4k). PW have more hull cap and hull damage control (2 SP = 50% compared to TE) and thier playstyle is ment to sit and burn ammo. The Terran was ment to kite and i dont want to see what a TS with lvl 8 shields would get if he has to run close to mobs to get dmg to em.. If something like that would get into game i'd say the TE would be the most not played Damage Dealer ingame.
If something like that would be implemented it would be interesting playstyle but [u]only[/u] if the Server counts at what speed a Terran is moving and gives [u]massive[/u] penalty to the hit modifiers on enemy's (would fit a TS with afterburn well).
[/quote]

Now see, this is good info. I got 8+k ranges as a mid-level with the standard Terran missile-range-extending gear, and assumed that the ranges would continue to go up as your weaps and gear increased in level. So this would definitely need to be looked at.

I do have a question though, you specified "good-equipped Terran". Does that mean missile-range extending gear, or (because missiles do full damage at all ranges now) does that mean using gear with other buffs?

I like your idea about speed to-hit penalties and agree it works perfectly with the concept, but have no idea if that's supported by the server.

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[quote name='cpwings' timestamp='1339680685' post='58929']
IMO, beam damage over long distances would drop off due to scattering of the beam so I can buy into that. Damage from projectiles and missiles are based on payload impact with the target and propellant has little to due with damage dealt. Perhaps miss rate might be increased at max range instead. The result would be the same but much more realistic.
[/quote]

Yup, that would do it too.

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Beam & Projectile users get improved accuracy in the description for each additional level of skill. Missile users only get improved accuracy in the description of L2 Missile Weapon skill. If this isn't a misprint in the description, Missiles may not be as accurate as Beams & Projectiles. Terrans do get to shoot our of their butts when needed with MLs, while Progen & Jenquai when using their racial weapons must face their targets. (when any bug allowing backwards shooting on beams and PLs is fixed.)

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[quote]

though, you specified "good-equipped Terran". Does that mean missile-range extending gear, or (because missiles do full damage at all ranges now) does that mean using gear with other buffs?

[/quote]

I mean a TE as i fly him now so using high end raid items (Black Caster,Smithers wraith, Dragons Rage, and 2 Bile ML) combined with a Black power reactor and other nice items (devices, engines ......)
a Standard Stuffed TE would be the lvl 150 TE with 3 Zet's 1 Enforcers Retort maybe a Spitter ML and using a Supernova 8. So way lower DPS at lil lower range.

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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1339710495' post='58945']
I mean a TE as i fly him now so using high end raid items (Black Caster,Smithers wraith, Dragons Rage, and 2 Bile ML) combined with a Black power reactor and other nice items (devices, engines ......)
a Standard Stuffed TE would be the lvl 150 TE with 3 Zet's 1 Enforcers Retort maybe a Spitter ML and using a Supernova 8. So way lower DPS at lil lower range.
[/quote]

Ok, so the raid gear is far superior to the standard gear, and even gives more range. Looking them up, everything is under 6k range, which is shorter than I expected for high-end gear.

I guess the real question is, with that gear, are you at risk of getting shot when you're fighting? That's the real point of this suggestion - to eliminate cruise-control kiting without actually "nerfing" Terran's DPS potential.

Since I haven't raided or done high-end content in this game, I don't know how much the rules change when you get into the upper regions, so I don't know how this suggestion affects that gameplay. Maybe it serves no purpose at higher levels because the weapon ranges are so short on the raid-gear launchers you mentioned.

I do know that with range-extending gear, mid-level Terrans can solo stuff many CLs higher without ever taking a hit. It takes time and a ton of ammo, but you can do it. And that does two very bad things - it gives Terrans a unique ability to camp for good items, and it makes them boring as heck to play.

I see a couple of possible roads from here:

1. There's no risk-free kiting at higher-end gameplay because unlike lower-level mobs, the higher ones have ways to hit you. So only mid-lower level gameplay needs something to add risk and a skill element to Terran play.

2. There IS risk-free kiting at high levels, so all levels of gameplay need that something.

3. This idea won't work for other reasons, such as short reload times making it impossible to execute the tactic reliably. Imagining using it on my former TE, I recall I had sub-6 second launchers at 200%. I would say I could absolutely execute the tactic with 10 seconds,execute it with skill at 8 seconds, but 6? I dunno if there'd be enough time to get in, get out, and get turned around for another run in 6 seconds.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1339684033' post='58933']
Beam & Projectile users get improved accuracy in the description for each additional level of skill. Missile users only get improved accuracy in the description of L2 Missile Weapon skill. If this isn't a misprint in the description, Missiles may not be as accurate as Beams & Projectiles. Terrans do get to shoot our of their butts when needed with MLs, while Progen & Jenquai when using their racial weapons must face their targets. (when any bug allowing backwards shooting on beams and PLs is fixed.)
[/quote]

Not sure how many missiles miss at high levels. I know at CL15-30, I did see some misses at max range, but it never stopped me from winning, it just made the process slower.

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Just make the mobs faster. Its kinda hilarious that CL60 voltoi go about 250-300 impulse. (a progen with a cats paw, unabating fire, or deadly breeze can kite them in reverse)

bump em up to 1000, they are CL60 after all. Edited by Ryle

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Or give them Gravity Link, which would simply slow the players down when it hits. Voltoi were fairly slow in Live and didn't have the best scanners, but quite a few of them could menace you.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1339773915' post='58981']
Or give them Gravity Link, which would simply slow the players down when it hits. Voltoi were fairly slow in Live and didn't have the best scanners, but quite a few of them could menace you.
[/quote]

That too, Tengu are great at that, especially when they swarm. You get like 4 aggroed on you and you will get grav linked. Its nice, makes me feel like a tank. Sit and take the punishment as its dished. The way its meant to be for a progen. Aw yea.

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In fact higher lvl (specially raid mobs) have abilities atm to get rid of single TE kiting even at maxed range like 8.3k i cant kite em since they hit me still at over 9k or they increase hull mass (fishbowl) to combat speed 30 (no joke) . Shure kitin a cl 60 Voltoi till he dies of boredom with a solo TE isnt fair but even my PW (range 5.8-6.3k on all weapons raidgeared) can do it.

And speaking of advantages.. i seen a JE (yes the ultimate Figthing class :blink: ) in cooper dealing with Desash the Plague and 4 minions using his cloak abilities :ph34r: (as intended) shoot-cloak drive into back of mob shoot-cloak and repeat. And this JE killed him in a time i said wow nice. He not even got one single hit in his shields, and after kill he waited till those minons went of to grabb loot.

I suggest we should stop this here. In life Terrans kites and now on Emu Terrans kite (old Speak of Terrans" it takes dmg and i can kite it?? i can kill it!!" Higher Lvl mobs are fitted to prevent kiting (mass increase/Menace/Summon) and lower lvls are cannon food wih or without kiting.

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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1339930976' post='59066']
In fact higher lvl (specially raid mobs) have abilities atm to get rid of single TE kiting even at maxed range like 8.3k i cant kite em since they hit me still at over 9k or they increase hull mass (fishbowl) to combat speed 30 (no joke) . Shure kitin a cl 60 Voltoi till he dies of boredom with a solo TE isnt fair but even my PW (range 5.8-6.3k on all weapons raidgeared) can do it.

And speaking of advantages.. i seen a JE (yes the ultimate Figthing class :blink: ) in cooper dealing with Desash the Plague and 4 minions using his cloak abilities :ph34r: (as intended) shoot-cloak drive into back of mob shoot-cloak and repeat. And this JE killed him in a time i said wow nice. He not even got one single hit in his shields, and after kill he waited till those minons went of to grabb loot.

I suggest we should stop this here. In life Terrans kites and now on Emu Terrans kite (old Speak of Terrans" it takes dmg and i can kite it?? i can kill it!!" Higher Lvl mobs are fitted to prevent kiting (mass increase/Menace/Summon) and lower lvls are cannon food wih or without kiting.
[/quote]

Aru is hitting the nail on the head, in so many ways.

Terrans cant kite anymore
Progens cant sit and tank using sap self heals anymore
Jenquai still have it all

So much BS, seriously.

I mean seriously, whats with this idiotic "racial pride" crap. We arent roleplaying here, people, we are trying to work on getting this game bug free, operational, balanced, and in good working order. If we are going to have classes with exploitable skillsets that make the others obsolete, youre going to have nothing but a galaxy full of JD's with no diversity once the minmaxers get ahold of it.

I mean really?

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I don't suggest we stop this here and let people take this into a "their race is broken so why fix mine?" thing.

This is a video game. NOBODY gets free loots and exps without actually doing something to earn it. And right now Progens are the only ones even close to earning it imo.

Jenquai are getting a free exploit on Combat Cloak due to a change that was made to compensate for lag, and there's no way to use Combat Cloak without triggering the unintended behavior. There's [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7010-the-combat-cloak-problem/"]an entire Combat Cloak thread about it[/url], so it's not just being accepted. It's agreed that there needs to be changes, and the discussion as to what is underway.

If you'd like to discuss the Jenq problem, please do so in that thread. THIS thread is about the Terran's ability to shoot mobs without being shot in return at all. That's not ok, it's straight-up broken gameplay that would be classed as a n unfair exploit in ANY MMO and patched ASAP out of fairness to the other players.

If you don't like my suggestions, no problem. Make one of your own on how to make Terran gameplay - at all levels, not just raiding - something other than circle around with their weapons on autofire.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1339963871' post='59085']
, it's straight-up broken gameplay that would be classed as a n unfair exploit in ANY MMO and patched ASAP out of fairness to the other players.

If you don't like my suggestions, no problem. Make one of your own on how to make Terran gameplay - at all levels, not just raiding - something other than circle around with their weapons on autofire.
[/quote]

You Point on something that works same way like in life (the time when we payed for the game) and it was far away from beeing corrected Terrans kited and i dont think it will change in Emu.

Say its boring say its unfair (others classes have other.. (unfair)... advantages) but it wont change the way it was and i'm glad of it. why? Because i like how the Terran was and [u]is[/u] played. Now im outa here cya on server

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I like this idea, and came up with a revised version for the thread:
https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/7079-accuracy-rating-of-weapons-and-distance/

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[quote name='Aru' timestamp='1340048231' post='59177']
You Point on something that works same way like in life (the time when we payed for the game) and it was far away from beeing corrected Terrans kited and i dont think it will change in Emu.

Say its boring say its unfair (others classes have other.. (unfair)... advantages) but it wont change the way it was and i'm glad of it. why? Because i like how the Terran was and [u]is[/u] played. Now im outa here cya on server
[/quote]

That's fair. You certainly don't have to agree that there's a problem if you like the way it is now.

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I did it! I did it!
And I did it with a JENQUAI :)

Recipe for success:[list=1]
[*]Take 1 mob with a range shorter than your weapons by a slight bit (I used 1.5km mobs b/c my beams are about 1.9km atm).
[*]Lock weapons on said mob and move to within your weapons range, but stay outside of theirs.
[*]Fire, put engines on auto and turn away (I used keyboard and mouse, both worked).
[*]As soon as range opens enough so you can complete a circle before they come within their range, turn towards them again.
[*]As soon as you come into your weapons range, begin turning out again. The client will fire your weapons for you as you turn.
[*]Repeat steps 4-5 with skill and timing, and the mob will not hit you. Fail to execute with skill, and it WILL get a shot at you.
[/list]

I had all of a half KM to work with, but I succeeded at not being hit at all several times, and even when I was hit, it wasn't every time.

So there IS a viable method of playing Terrans with launchers that only attain maximum damage at shorter ranges. And imo it's a lot more fun than the current way. When you consider that their ships being designed for speed and maneuverability naturally make them the best at doing this, and their weaker shields demand that they hit without being hit, it just seems like a natural way to play them.

Just wanted to post the followup for anyone's interest.

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Terrans were designed by Westwood to be ranged. Not in close (Jen) or mid-range (Progen) but the guys that could kite almost anything in the game given enough skill and room. With top level gear this range was huge.....and for some mobs it made them very very easy. But there were a whole host of mobs that if a terran got too close they got dead. I think people are seeing the result of mobs not being ramped up and assuming that terrans are too powerful.....but so are progen and jen in my experience. Even being surrounded by Ten-gu there really isnt much of a challenge if you have a trader and a few warriors. Until the devs get into fixing/balancing mobs, for all levels, this will remain a "OMG, ***class**** is overpowered!" but this is due to the EMU not being done yet.....not bad game or class design.

Trust me, you do not want to be a TE capped at 5k range and try to solo the CL 60 Terran ship in Luna that, in Live, dropped the Type A ML and Supernova reactor. It had huge range, was deadly fast, and got assistance from the gate turret if you got in range of it. This was an epic battle even if your TE was crazy geared. There are a ton of mobs that have a lot of skills that make kiting difficult for a terran. Just wait until they start balancing the mobs......and watch out when they add mobs that can scan blind (gazers), grav link (voltoi, ten-gu), and warp (gazers, riders, high level bogeril, etc)........then yer gonna equip a supernova and Eagle Wing and every other speed device you can get yer hands on. ^_^

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