remove ripping of ores from components?

[Tyran]

In live and now the path that most playerbuilt components undergo is:

[b]Comp bought at vendor > ripped by trader for ores > rebuilt into required component[/b]

No miner is involved here while the ore fields are supposed to supply the ores.

Why not remove the ability to rip ores from components?

Items will have a greater inherent value when they are made from mined ores. Also, miners would be more involved in the building process and would actually play the role they are supposed to.

Currently, traders don't have the prospect skill but are able to mine ores like no miner ever could.

[Hickory]

Every post you make is great for a laugh. Thanks for that. Where do you come up with this stuff. Must take hours to think up a way to change game dynamics so you can mine more. LMAO

[Lot]

I don't think that would automatically create a market for ores as players would close the loop and create their own private supply chain to mine the ores and turn them into components. The same arguments were often brought up in live and rejected because there was a balance between the efficiency of mining and the not so efficient dismantling of components. Also, there are components that use ores that cannot be obtained from dismantling components.

If anything the effect would be to make the game less fun if there was no choice allowed.

I would dispute that statement anyway that player built components in the emulator are always built from ores dismantled from vendor bought or looted components. I dismantle occasionally but more often than not use my ores stash to make components. There are times when I am especially grateful for the ability to obtain ores from dismantling components this usually involves low level ores that I just can't be bothered going out to mine.

I do see now and again players on market offering to buy ores so the market is not completely dead. I think anyone that makes an effort to become a notable supplier of ores will indeed become a supplier and players will buy ores. I am aware of several private supply chains of ores between one player and another player so something is working.

[Kenu [CDEV]]

I hear people talking about ripping components all the time in game so you have a point with how people are avoiding having to mine and refine. Eventually when credits have more value, ripping components will be more expensive and players will hesitate to do so. We're not going to remove the ability to rip components, but it is possible we could encourage mining and refining for building components by making it more expensive to rip. Ores->Refined->Components->Equipment is an essential part of EnB. Ripping components is convenient and should be one of the perks of being rich, but it does seem like most people have this perk at the moment and that mining has less purpose because of it.

This problem is being solved as mobs get reworked and exploits get eliminated.

[kjeron]

Another reason ripping is the norm is because ore locations keep getting moved/removed or have changed roid types, while comps and their ores never change and are always available at the same place.
It also became necessary to rip ores back when roid fields were reduced to almost nothing, mining to refine for comps wasnt on option, so we had to adjust to complete ripping. Of course it was the same issue that lead to the ore fields being neutered that a lot of us got the cash to freely rip whatever we needed.

[rabidkiller]

I wonder if tyran has ever made a useful post, all I've ever seen are his troll rants...

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='rabidcajun' timestamp='1313853029' post='44949']
I wonder if tyran has ever made a useful post, all I've ever seen are his troll rants...
[/quote]


[font="Calibri"][size="3"]I don’t think Tyran’s latest post was a rant or being a troll. I think he has raised a legitimate issue. I have been collecting Grail Water (thinking I have been doing favors for builders) only to find that it can and is being ripped from something else. I don’t sell them but if I did this would be a huge chunk of coin I would not be able to get as a miner.[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

Just saying

[rabidkiller]

well mimir orefields are still fairly crappy imo, and we have no economy atm so its gonna happen.

[Lot]

Actually, the developers were responsible for creating the ores from components problem.

The loot tables were chucking out bucket loads of level IX components from mobs -- these got saved up for dismantling. For example Brimstone Alchemist dropped from everything and became a source of Aesirium, Arhurian Plastic and Tiberium. That is just one example and together they all became a source for refined ores.

No buy cost overhead associated with these looted components and players have huge stashes of them.

Asteroid fields are kinda adequate for L5-8 ores and for L9s woefully bad. Live had asteroids fields that only contained L9 ores and we really need that back again to create the opportunity for miners to get in on the supply of L9 ores. BBW, Nifelheim and possible other sectors had L9 fields. The trouble is at the moment the L7-9 fields have mostly L7 + L8s and negligible amounts of L9s.

There are components actually that need mined ores to make e.g. ammo components.

If Ardus and Der Todersengel were opened and the dark matter and dung weapons added (I dare not mention Brimstone weapons), this would up the demand for mined ores. As only mined ores can make the ammo components used in the ammo for those weapons. Edited August 20, 2011 by Lot

[Klyde]

Just as in "live", I have a TT comp builder. I also made a JE miner to get me the ores I need when I need them.

I have ripped comps, who hasn't? But, like was mentioned above, 99% of the time I rip low level stuff for the low level ores that nobody is gonna want to bother mining.

The system is working here pretty much like it did in live, mechanics wise.
Now, if we had 2500 folks playing daily, the demand for ores would be far different than it is currently. And I'm certain the market channel would have lots more WTB/WTS offers for ores, etc.

[Cosmo3]

If I remember correct, in live there was talk of adding an ore Vendor, a place Miners could sell their ore, refined and raw and builders buy it from the Vendor. The Vendor only had it if a miner sold it to them, there would not be unlimited supplies. IMO this would be a good idea and way for miners to be more useful.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Matsu' timestamp='1313867085' post='44964']
If I remember correct, in live there was talk of adding an ore Vendor, a place Miners could sell their ore, refined and raw and builders buy it from the Vendor. The Vendor only had it if a miner sold it to them, there would not be unlimited supplies. IMO this would be a good idea and way for miners to be more useful.
[/quote]

That would be a good idea. Give said vendor better buy prices for ores than the other vendors in the same station. Adjust prices accordingly for Faction with station's owners, and Negotiate skill. There could be multiple ore vendors in various locations where explorers might sell ores. The main one should be in F7 and should give the best prices to explorers selling the ores, but there could also be them in various locations around the galaxy.

Does the client and server allow for the vendors to be linked together and can it keep records of what was sold where? If the answer to both those questions is yes, without it being too much of a burden on the server, then perhaps it should charge Traders partially on the basis of how far the ore had to be transported by the ore company from where the explorer sold it, to where the trader is buying it. Faction and negotiate should also affect the prices of ores, when being purchased.

[Mattsacre]

I recently was doing the progen optional content, just 1 of the 4 ores needed was phosphate, a L2 refined item from phosphous. Becuase of the quantities demanded for that mission, I went out with my L150 JE and tried to see if I could scrounge it up. After most of a day using that JE (with max skills, bottomless reactor, huge scan, and 7k+ warp, 1k thrust) I barely came up with 1/2 of what was needed. If I did that mission using a maxed miner and gathered the rest of the phosphate and the other 3 ores it would have taken a week (this in a series of missions that this was just 1 step). What would it have taken for a noob miner to supply me needs..probably a month, would I have waited even a week for him to supply me? NO.

However..to do that mission, I can grab a stack of L2 comps and with 240 hits of a button, within 30 min. (and considerable cost) rip that phosphate. Then do the same for the other 3 items, so a few hours and credits (and carpel tunnel) and I have what is needed to do 1 (one) step of a multistep mission. Would I have paid a miner for those ores? HELL YES! Not only would I have paid him, I would have paid him much more than the comps and terminal costs were by several magnitudes. It would have saved me vast time and button presses, got him a great credit reward, and xp for refining it for me. It would have even got him a contact point for future help for gear builds and/or help for HIS needs (missions, builds, combat etc.)

So what is the problem? SUPPLY. Plain and simple. There needs to be lots of ore available for the miner to mine. There needs to be some way for that miner to get the ore to the builder..WHEN THE BUILDER NEEDS IT. I.E. Supply and Demand. The builders rip from comps because there is a supply readily available (at whatever increased costs via rips) WHEN THEY NEED IT.

If you are a builder, right now as is, you have 2 routes to ores:
1. Rip comps. Even with all the inflated costs associated with it, it's fast and available on demand.
2. Spam the market channel. Is there a source available? Does someone have some in their vault filling a slot? Are they willing to part with it? If the miner(s) don't have it, will they go get you some? Can they get it mined and to you in a reasonable time frame? Is there even ore fields with it to even get it? If no to any of those questions..do you have the time to take your miner or a guilders miner out and try and scrounge some up?

So lets take TYRAN's suggestion, make it not possible to rip, or make it so cost prohibitive that they don't. What happens? Supply and Demand. You increase the cost and hassle to builder, it gets passed on. You dry up their supply of ores? You dry up what they can build. The warrior don't get the weapons, ammo , shields, reactors, engines and devices they need to combat. No raids, no combat groups, no loot. The miner don't get weapons, ammo, shields, reactors, engines and devices they need to mine. No mining, no raid buffs, no mining groups, no hulk loots. NO PLAYING TO CLASS.

Whats a possible solution to the problem TYRAN percieves?:

1. Increase the ore supply, increase it DRASTICLY, so that miner(s) can readily go out and get what a builder needs, within a tight time frame. On demand mining, so to speak. Barring "subcontracting" a mine order a builder can drop out of build mode, and go scrap up what he needs with a alt. or guild it out.

2. Have some way that supplier (miner) can meet demander's (builder) potental needs via a "at will" method, a Auction House or Vendor Kiosk, were the miner can post what he has available, and the builder can access it when he needs it. (I know that many hate AH concept..sometimes I do also..especially because of goons that abuse it to corner the market or artificaly inflate etc.) (I would concieve a hybrid market would help stop that crap, a vendor kiosk that caps price ranges for ores, but names suppliers so builders could "reward or tip" suppliers for timely supply/quantity etc.)

3. Ore lists, have a established site with "ore used" lists that tracks actual ore usage. Then the miner can see whats not really in demand, and can feel confident in his refine/vendor for xp. and what to hold onto for potential future demand. Thus the miner will have stacks of what the builder might need like ammo ore etc. Then when the DEMAND via the market channel is called out, the SUPPLY via the market channel can answer the call.

Barring 1 of or all of those 3 I don't see TYRAN's idea working. It's simple economics, if you dry up a supply, then everything springing from that supply dries up and increases in cost. If a builder can't get the ores, he ain't building.

What exasperates the problem is: missions that demand mass amounts of ores, if they have to gather tons to exchange for recipes, that ties up those ores and time from the builder building. If they can't get to those ores for the missions handly, then they either don't do the mission/recipe, or they spend time gathering and not building/suppling. If the missions were planned, and the ores needed were plentiful via miners having excess amounts of them, then the "down time" for both the miner and builder could be minimized.

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='Matsu' timestamp='1313867085' post='44964']
If I remember correct, in live there was talk of adding an ore Vendor, a place Miners could sell their ore, refined and raw and builders buy it from the Vendor. The Vendor only had it if a miner sold it to them, there would not be unlimited supplies. IMO this would be a good idea and way for miners to be more useful.
[/quote]
There were vendor kiosks in for a while, one in fenris and n7 if I remember right..think there was a few others. They looked like a yellow flag with a pawn symbol on it..the 3 balls on a chain symbol thing. There is actually a kiosk you can look at now in margasi? adrail? one of the 2 stations, it don't sell anything but you can see what it was looking like. Those kiosks sold a limited amount of mid-range ores for a while (at huge mark up) and bought ores (some with a slightly better rate than other vendors). But they never had a floating supply/demand tied in, what was sold to them never reflected what was bought and costs appropriate.

Players complained about them and they kept 2 of the kiosks, but they didnt buy/sell after that. The complaint was that builders weren't buying from miners at the "market" value of select ores and perversely the miners complained that builders weren't buying ANY of select ores even at vendor prices. Thus the miners were going to those vendors to get the slight mark/up and selling their ore, not knowing that some of those ores were the "in demand" ores.

[BrixunMortar]

i can see the arguement here but if this is going to happen then the ore fields need fixing 1st! at the moment there is no continuity in location of fields and the size of them has been dramatically reduced from live! if everyone went out mining the high end ores for ammo it would be crazy! all in 1 or 2 areas to get a decent field?? i think not! maybe when the ore fields are sorted out a bit and reproportioned it would be ok! but then wot about the pp? its not a great builder and can't mine, wot do we with that toon? does that still get to rip comps to make up for a missing skill?? just food for thought

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='BrixunMortar' timestamp='1313877807' post='44976']
i can see the arguement here but if this is going to happen then the ore fields need fixing 1st! at the moment there is no continuity in location of fields and the size of them has been dramatically reduced from live! if everyone went out mining the high end ores for ammo it would be crazy! all in 1 or 2 areas to get a decent field?? i think not! maybe when the ore fields are sorted out a bit and reproportioned it would be ok! but then wot about the pp? its not a great builder and can't mine, wot do we with that toon? does that still get to rip comps to make up for a missing skill?? just food for thought
[/quote]

There's a thread on the PT in the Advocate's section. It's been a while since whatever the PT's missing skill(s) will be has been debated in any way. Perhaps that might be a good topic for another thread on the matter. My PT would like to know what her last skill will be, but then again, she probably wishes I'd play her more.

Good points Matt about supply & demand for ores. Mining needs to be improved, it shouldn't go to the extreme of roidballs, but there should be many places for miners of all levels to mine, and there should be NPC missions based on mining, some repeatable, some not. Orefields should be sufficent to make this practical, not to mention the leveling up of explorers.

For missions that require ore that are done by Traders or Warriors should not require large amounts of ores. Missions that require large amouts of ores should generally be Explorers Only. Mining is core to our profession, so the orefields should be sufficent for Scouts, Sentinels, and Explorers to always have something to do. Some should be easy to find, others should be "hidden". Orefields that are harder to find, or defended by more dangerous (level apropraite) guardians should tend to have more valuable ores, and hulk items, than the orefields that are "low hanging fruit".

I have no probem with missions requiring the amounts of ores that the MCP required, so long as the rewards are apropriate to the level of effort required, and the orefields can support players seeking ores, over time, to be realistically able to complete them without messing up the market for Traders. As an explorer I don't mind spending a couple of weeks, or even a couple of months, mining sufficent ores to be rewarded with a shiny new toy worth the effort. The Gaze of Amah I got in Live was a good example of a worthwhile reward for lots of mining. The rewards for doing the Zach mission could have used to be a bit better, particularily the Balefire line of reactors. The Sturdy Solar Panel, required boat loads of ores to build one, some rare (Astralite & Star ore refined), some common, given the effort needed to make a sturdy solar panel, the items that used it needed to have better stats than they did, and in the case of the Balefire reactors, go up to L9.

Edit: Also on the issue of orefields, the Tazeron nave in Kitara's Veil should have asteroids that contain all colors of Tazeron. It was used in a low level JE mission in Live. Tazeron should be exclusive to that location. Making Maelstrom keys was also an early JE mission, which required JE's to mine specific ores.

[Tyran]

There may be added reasons for this...

[b]1. Low level fields.[/b] I'm sure most miners remember from live the small number of high level ore fields at least before the cygni/glenn/earth L7-9 fields were added.

Then there was a vast amount of lower level fields which were almost completely ignorable because they had nearly zero value (apart from the ruined hulks!). The ores of L1-7 fields were almost all available to the maxed player for free as the components cost nothing really. Only L8 and 9 were of some notable cost...

If you fix the economy so nobody has infinite cash anymore it will still mean lower level fields are completely ignorable (other than field clear xp). This would be while most fields are lower level ones...

[b]2. Competing with the vendor.[/b] With component dismantling the value of an ore is decided by the vendor, not the miners.

If a trader is poor he may go through the added effort of getting ores from a miner.

If he has enough money he won't bother, and will just dismantle vendor components.

If enough traders are rich enough, you end up with an overflow of ores that are unsellable by miners so they will just linger in their vaults.

There is a non-flexible upper limit a miner can ask that is also subject to the wealth of the average trader.

It would be better if miners did not have such unfair competition from the vendor, but rather compete with each other.

Traders don't have to compete with vendors either.

But if they did...

Imagine vendors sold 200% of all buildable equipment and your job as a trader is to undercut their prices, still make it worth somebody's time to visit you to pick up the bought item, and make a profit out of it worthy of your own time.

If your price is too high or they are rich enough they will buy from the vendor. So your competition is the vendor...lulz. This is an MMO not a SP game

That is basically what the (non-ammo) ore market was about in live and will be about here.

[ryleyra]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1313873600' post='44975']
There were vendor kiosks in for a while, one in fenris and n7 if I remember right..think there was a few others. They looked like a yellow flag with a pawn symbol on it..the 3 balls on a chain symbol thing. [...]

Players complained about them and they kept 2 of the kiosks, but they didnt buy/sell after that. The [...][/quote]

Hm, wonder how I missed that. I remember on live there was a vendor in Jupiter that sold the level 1-3 ores. Maybe this was the same thing and I just missed the one in Fenris. At any rate, as you say it was a VERY controversial addition, and a lot of miners complained about it. And the ores cost 8.75 times the vendor buy price, so it wasn't like it was CHEAP. It just essentially dried up any interest in low level ores, and left the Market channel for high level rare ore trade.

The problem IS that there is no Auction House. It was the problem on live, and it is the problem here. As you say, it is supply and demand, and the SUPPLY is limited because you are limited to the small supply of miners available at the time you are online. If you could buy from miners that have been on at any time during the day, then the supply would be higher, which would keep costs down. This would drive up demand, because it then becomes cheaper to buy ores from miners than to rip them from components.

I like the idea of a Vendor that buys ore and keeps an inventory of it, which can then be sold to the crafters. I believe my suggestion on live was to have the Ore Vendor buy ore at some median price, perhaps 4.5 times the buy price, and a counter keeps track of how many there are at that price. Once they run out, the price can either jump back to 8.75, so builders can still buy even if the fields are broken, or for the high level ores they just cannot be bought at all. (Actually, now that I think about it, my idea was for the buy/sell price to scale based on how many ores were already in the vendor. So when there were thousands it would be cheaper to just sell to another vendor, but when there's only two you're getting like 8 to 10 times that. However, the static solution would be easier to implement)

Unfortunately, this sticks the miners with a static price, and a very rare ore can obviously sell for more in the Market. The best solution would be an actual Auction House, where you can either post up a stack of ores for the price YOU want to charge for it, or conversely, set a buy order for a set of ores. (Like in City of Heroes, although that's also a controversial system) This Market can then be expanded to buy and sell components as well, allowing Traders to get their Components to the Warriors for use in crafting their ammo. This could VASTLY improve the trade of low level, common ores, as everyone needs ammo... (Heck, the ammo itself could be put on the market, although I think many players would still like to build their own just for the fun of it)

The problem is, I'm not sure an Auction House can be supported with the game engine. It was often discussed on live, and never implemented. A compromise like the "increment a counter as ore/components are sold to the vendor" would be a compromise, but might still not be possible within the limitations of the game engine. Plus, some mechanism would need to be in place to preserve build quality for components, either that or discard component quality. (Which I think was how it was on live, but the devs intentionally added it here so that quality can be passed on down to the systems, and give an advantage over vendor components)

Honestly, maybe a dev can come in this thread and post what MIGHT be possible. I would like to know. This was my biggest criticism of the game on live, and I'd like to know how many people would support an Auction System, even though it is likely to cut into the very highest level of trade. Edited August 22, 2011 by Dragoncove

[ryleyra]

Oh, also, while the Ore Vendor did have the pawn symbol, I remembered there was a Vendor which had a symbol, something like a gemstone, which COULD have been used as an Ore Vendor symbol. I even noticed it again a few days ago, so it's still in the game, but I forgot to make a note of where it was, and have forgotten. Maybe if I find it again I will edit this post.

Also, while it should be an ADVANTAGE to buy from another player, I agree that the goal should always be to compensate for times when the game is broken. If the players cannot supply the demand, there should be an alternative. However, I believe that the burden is not on the players, but on the devs to ensure the resources are available. The players CAN provide enough resources to support trade, IF they can find them quickly enough. They should be able to MINE them quickly enough, you don't really need that many ores. Edited August 22, 2011 by Dragoncove

[rolonos[IS]]

Don't think we can implement this in a station but a roving npc might be able to be set up as a vendor. might then be able to prices store against it.

rolo

[ryleyra]

[quote name='rolo' timestamp='1314036862' post='45048']
Don't think we can implement this in a station but a roving npc might be able to be set up as a vendor. might then be able to prices store against it.

rolo
[/quote]

At first thought, I was like, "Oo, that'll be a little out of the way", but then I thought this is actually more consistent with the way you might meet another player in space to do trading. You could even call the NPC "Middleman".

Not sure what you meant, though, do you mean you would be able to store goods with the price you want to sell it for with that vendor? Then he lists what he has "stored" for buyers? Or that he would store an item for a static buy/sell price?

Also, I didn't say this above, but without a "sliding" price system like I suggested, it might be best to set a maximum stack size. Like, say he'll hold 1000 of a particular ore before he is full. At that point, he won't take any more, so you have to vendor it. That'll encourage the miners to look for things he has more in demand instead.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='rolo' timestamp='1314036862' post='45048']
Don't think we can implement this in a station but a roving npc might be able to be set up as a vendor. might then be able to prices store against it.

rolo
[/quote]

I'm not sure which post you're responding to so I'll ask:

Is it possible at all to set up a vendor that only sells what players bring him?

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314033526' post='45044']
Oh, also, while the Ore Vendor did have the pawn symbol, I remembered there was a Vendor which had a symbol, something like a gemstone, which COULD have been used as an Ore Vendor symbol. I even noticed it again a few days ago, so it's still in the game, but I forgot to make a note of where it was, and have forgotten. Maybe if I find it again I will edit this post.

Also, while it should be an ADVANTAGE to buy from another player, I agree that the goal should always be to compensate for times when the game is broken. If the players cannot supply the demand, there should be an alternative. However, I believe that the burden is not on the players, but on the devs to ensure the resources are available. The players CAN provide enough resources to support trade, IF they can find them quickly enough. They should be able to MINE them quickly enough, you don't really need that many ores.
[/quote]
I have to admit, I misremembered it, the pawn symbol is trade goods vendor..they are in every station and depending on your graphics card "green to yellow" or any shade between. You are correct that the ore vendor had a diamond shape () with cuts in it and was a more yellow than a trade goods vendor. There was one in jupiter like you said and one either in VT or fenris...were that vendor used to be they put a NPC against that wall, he had the stuff the dahin npc wanted for the JE's forced contemplation skill. Wasn't it caviar and 2 other things? Can't remember..but thats were the gem vendor was.

[ryleyra]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1314041015' post='45055']
I have to admit, I misremembered it, the pawn symbol is trade goods vendor..they are in every station and depending on your graphics card "green to yellow" or any shade between. You are correct that the ore vendor had a diamond shape () with cuts in it and was a more yellow than a trade goods vendor. [/quote]

Actually, I THINK that the Ore Vendor really did have the pawn symbol. I remember posting to the forums that I thought that was weird when there was a perfectly good unused symbol. Can't remember what the gem symbol referred to, he had nothing for sale. (I suppose I should have checked what he would pay, maybe he buys refined gems)

Remember the Construction Site at Mars? They bought refined ores, too. Good work for all those miners if you know about it.

[rolonos[IS]]

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314037843' post='45051']
At first thought, I was like, "Oo, that'll be a little out of the way", but then I thought this is actually more consistent with the way you might meet another player in space to do trading. You could even call the NPC "Middleman".

Not sure what you meant, though, do you mean you would be able to store goods with the price you want to sell it for with that vendor? Then he lists what he has "stored" for buyers? Or that he would store an item for a static buy/sell price?

Also, I didn't say this above, but without a "sliding" price system like I suggested, it might be best to set a maximum stack size. Like, say he'll hold 1000 of a particular ore before he is full. At that point, he won't take any more, so you have to vendor it. That'll encourage the miners to look for things he has more in demand instead.
[/quote]

I know that we have the facility for a roving NPC to purchase items from players and only sell what he has purchased. I think these are currently for fixed prices but it may be possible to tweak this so he could sell fo a price specified by the player. I would envision something like this.

Player - Hi Bob. I want to sell my Phaser4.
Bob - Well I'l give you 50 Credits for it.
Player - Nah. I want to sell it for more.
Bob - How Much.
Player - 100 Credits.
Bob - I can try and sell it for you but it will cost you 10 credits.
Player - OK that's fine.

Player then pays 10 credits and the Phaser4 gets transfered to Bob's invetory with a price of 100 Credits against it.

Bob can market the item for say a fortnight and if not sold will withdraw it from sale.

To recover the item or the credit if sold the player would need to start a conversation with bob again.

I believe the above is technically feasible however I would not expect it to be implemented before Beta, probably not before live.

Rolo.

PS. I agree with the maximum stack size. Maybe max 1000 ores, 50 components and 5 items. Would also need to be a limit on what he can hold, maybe 100 items available to vendor at any one time due to the size of his hold? (Figures plucked out of thin air)