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remove ripping of ores from components?


Tyran

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[quote name='Overtkill' timestamp='1314380450' post='45264']
Something else to add as an idea...

Would it be possible institute a system similar to Eve, where a builder can put what ores he wants into a market system at whatever price he is willing to pay? Thus miner 49er's could look at that whether the builder is online or not, and still get the guy his ores?

Either that, or work on something along side the Net-7 DB that would have the same purpose? That way we could also track what is always in demand and look for those ores. This way also would negate any client limitations. :)



Thanks for reading.... :)

-Overt
[/quote]

This is similar to what City of Heroes did. It worked well for both the sellers and buyers.
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314382732' post='45265']
I need to double check, but I think I calculated that component ripped ores are worth about 9.5 times the vendor price. That does include the terminal cost, though, so that would increase it. However, the Trader has to take the time to buy the components, and perform the dismantle, and there is a chance of failure. On live, the price that was often quoted was 10 times the vendor price. Of course "vendor price" often depended on faction, and so your vendor price might not be mine. :) [/quote]

I just found out something that adds a new factor to this, and that is the price of Components right now is NOT the same as on live. In fact, it is much higher, around 3 to 4 times higher, for levels 1 through 4. Now, it is possible that this drops to be closer to live for the higher level components, but this means that for low level components, the cost to the miner to rip ores from components is MUCH higher than it was on live.

The vendor price to buy ores has not changed, though, so the ratio between ore price and component price is a lot higher than 9.5. It's probably more like 30 times. So a builder can save a LOT of money by buying ores from a miner and building components with it. And miners can probably ask for 15 to 20 times the vendor price of those ores.

I don't know if it is intended for it to go live like this. But it is certainly going to effect the market, the price of built items is going to be much higher. I haven't checked if the terminal prices have changes, but the builders will need more money to build items if they're going to buy components.

The prices of items are subtly different too, although weapons only average about 1.5 times higher, and other systems it seems to come out as a wash. Some are higher and some are lower.

[edit] On going back and checking over it, I find that ammo components, unlike equipment components, appear to be priced about the same. There was about a 15% difference from my recorded prices, but that could easily be due to faction. So it does appear that if you go on ammo components, the value of ore does appear to be about 9.5 the vendor price.

Honestly speaking, this revelation has changed my mind. Maybe it is a good idea to remove the ability to rip ores, but ONLY from ammo components. After all, you cannot rip ammo to make their components. The ability to rip refined ore from non-ammo components should remain. However, it seems to me an exploit that you can rip ore, get a miner to refine it, and then build components that are cheaper than those from the vendor.

Because of the possibility that a bug or oversight could still cause the supply of an ammo ore to dry up, leaving builders unable to produce the ammo, maybe it would be a better solution to simply increase the terminal cost to rip ammo components. Leave normal components as they are, but increase the price to rip an ammo component by twice its buy price. This would price its "internal ore" competitively with other components, and again allow miners to charge up to 15-30 times the vendor cost without coming close to the cost of ripping ore.

Alternately, require the purchase of a Terminal Override, which can raise the cost even more. Or even, require the trader to purchase a drop from the Market. Edited by Dragoncove
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removing key functionality from EMU so its not like the live game: Bad
Forcing traders/players to have to seek out a miner when none is around: Bad
Current lack of ore in game: Bad


So guess what? When the player wipe occurs there won't be any players running around with over 1 billion in credits. Miners will be able to obtain ore and supply those that need it, including builders, but the key here is that a key system in the game is not working right now. Thats the amount, distribution and diversity or ore. If they fix that then all of the other stuff is moot because it will work as it did in live......which rocked.
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314466357' post='45305']
I just found out something that adds a new factor to this, and that is the price of Components right now is NOT the same as on live. In fact, it is much higher, around 3 to 4 times higher, for levels 1 through 4. Now, it is possible that this drops to be closer to live for the higher level components, but this means that for low level components, the cost to the miner to rip ores from components is MUCH higher than it was on live.

The vendor price to buy ores has not changed, though, so the ratio between ore price and component price is a lot higher than 9.5. It's probably more like 30 times. So a builder can save a LOT of money by buying ores from a miner and building components with it. And miners can probably ask for 15 to 20 times the vendor price of those ores.

I don't know if it is intended for it to go live like this. But it is certainly going to effect the market, the price of built items is going to be much higher. I haven't checked if the terminal prices have changes, but the builders will need more money to build items if they're going to buy components.

The prices of items are subtly different too, although weapons only average about 1.5 times higher, and other systems it seems to come out as a wash. Some are higher and some are lower.

[edit] On going back and checking over it, I find that ammo components, unlike equipment components, appear to be priced about the same. There was about a 15% difference from my recorded prices, but that could easily be due to faction. So it does appear that if you go on ammo components, the value of ore does appear to be about 9.5 the vendor price.

Honestly speaking, this revelation has changed my mind. Maybe it is a good idea to remove the ability to rip ores, but ONLY from ammo components. After all, you cannot rip ammo to make their components. The ability to rip refined ore from non-ammo components should remain. However, it seems to me an exploit that you can rip ore, get a miner to refine it, and then build components that are cheaper than those from the vendor.

Because of the possibility that a bug or oversight could still cause the supply of an ammo ore to dry up, leaving builders unable to produce the ammo, maybe it would be a better solution to simply increase the terminal cost to rip ammo components. Leave normal components as they are, but increase the price to rip an ammo component by twice its buy price. This would price its "internal ore" competitively with other components, and again allow miners to charge up to 15-30 times the vendor cost without coming close to the cost of ripping ore.

Alternately, require the purchase of a Terminal Override, which can raise the cost even more. Or even, require the trader to purchase a drop from the Market.
[/quote]

Somehow I guess your point on not allowing builders to rip ammo comps went over my head.

1.Why would a builder take a ammo comp, rip it, and rebuild it to make ammmo? The odds of not makeing 200% ammo is near 0, I.E. why would a builder build ammo comp to 200% just to get superior ammo if it wasn't 200% and he couldnt stand that..then by more comp and build again and sell the 100% ammo.

2.You say that they might "exploit" ripping ores from ammo comp, have it refined then sell the comp for less than vendor? So you pay to buy the comp, then you pay terminal to rip it (and possibly lose some ore), then turn over to miner to refine it..thus they pay terminal price to refine it, then turn back to builder and they pay terminal price to manufacture comp. Thats 1..2..3..4 PAYS to get the comp (factoring in loss to rips remember). I'm quit confiden if you add all thise fees that the vendor price for a comp will not exceed builders TOTAL cost of manufaturing comp.

3.The ores in ammo comps are most often 1 or more levels lower than the comp ripped, I.E most L9 ammo comps rip to L6-8 ores, please factor that into the mix also..the cost of a L9 comp,ripped,refined,rebuilt to new comp....oh and dont forget,, refining multiples..it takes 3 or 5 of something raw to make 1 refined, so thats 5xL9 ammo comps bought, 5x ammo comp ripped (don't forget losses), a refined down to 1

So a "exploit" I think you may have not thought the entire process through and associated costs(s) and losses. I must insist builders rip for ores for expedience, NOT cost, they get the ores "on demand" for their build, rather than spam the market channel for 2 hr. in a possibly vain attempt of aquiring lower cost ore. Remember, if the builder is building for profit and not as favor, they WILL pass the costs on, so that "exploit" isn't the builder its the customer "exploiting". <_<
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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1314514713' post='45322']
1.Why would a builder take a ammo comp, rip it, and rebuild it to make ammmo? The odds of not makeing 200% ammo is near 0, I.E. why would a builder build ammo comp to 200% just to get superior ammo if it wasn't 200% and he couldnt stand that..then by more comp and build again and sell the 100% ammo.[/quote]

This is the main reason why I think the ripping of ores from components isn't a problem. You still haven't made it impossible to JUST USE THE COMPONENTS.

Where the issue lies, I think, is in ripping ores from an ammo component TO MAKE SOME OTHER AMMO COMPONENT. One that can't be bought from the vendor.

That honestly wasn't what I was talking about.

[quote]2.You say that they might "exploit" ripping ores from ammo comp, have it refined then sell the comp for less than vendor? So you pay to buy the comp, then you pay terminal to rip it (and possibly lose some ore), then turn over to miner to refine it..thus they pay terminal price to refine it, then turn back to builder and they pay terminal price to manufacture comp. Thats 1..2..3..4 PAYS to get the comp (factoring in loss to rips remember). I'm quit confiden if you add all thise fees that the vendor price for a comp will not exceed builders TOTAL cost of manufaturing comp.[/quote]

No, they don't have to sell the comp, they can just build something out of it. That item then costs some three times less than if you bought the component used to make the item.

My research is starting to indicate that refined ores can be sold back to the vendor for about 1.5 to 2 times what it costs to refine them. Although this could depend on the level of ore and individual type of ore. It seems to vary somehow depending on the ore. I haven't yet figured it out.

[quote]3.The ores in ammo comps are most often 1 or more levels lower than the comp ripped, I.E most L9 ammo comps rip to L6-8 ores, please factor that into the mix also..the cost of a L9 comp,ripped,refined,rebuilt to new comp....oh and dont forget,, refining multiples..it takes 3 or 5 of something raw to make 1 refined, so thats 5xL9 ammo comps bought, 5x ammo comp ripped (don't forget losses), a refined down to 1[/quote]

This may also be new to the emulator. Most low level ammo comps, at least on live, were made of a single type of ore. That is, you could rip a specific comp to get those specific ores from it. If there is a random selection of ores in the comps in the emulator, then there would certainly be waste involved, unless you could happen to find a comp that exactly match the ores you want. (Unlikely if it is truly random)

[quote]So a "exploit" I think you may have not thought the entire process through and associated costs(s) and losses. I must insist builders rip for ores for expedience, NOT cost, they get the ores "on demand" for their build, rather than spam the market channel for 2 hr. in a possibly vain attempt of aquiring lower cost ore. Remember, if the builder is building for profit and not as favor, they WILL pass the costs on, so that "exploit" isn't the builder its the customer "exploiting". <_<
[/quote]

I don't care who benefits from the "exploit", I am merely pointing out where 2+2=5. If Ammo comps are the same price they were on live, and other comps are 3 times the price they were on live, and the devs based the live prices on the relative value of raw ores to refined ores, then there is an inconsistency. If this is intentional because the devs want to encourage trade of refined ores to help mining, but keep the costs of ammo down for the warrior classes, that's perfectly fine. As long as all factors are considered.
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Well, now I find the manufacturing cost, and mainly the refining cost, DOES make up the difference. And if refining costs are higher, that may explain why I'm seeing refines ores selling for higher. This may be an intentional change, on live you actually lost money if you refined ores, although you gained Trade XP. This way you increase your income from vendoring ores, as well as earning the XP.

As for ripping ores and using them to make components, I found the cost came out very close to vendor cost, but a little higher, somewhere around 30 credits. So again, either manufacturing costs on live were lower than they are now, or non-ammo components were severely underpriced. I am pretty sure I did an analysis back in the day, but I have no manufacturing costs for components recorded (only items) so I can't be sure.

The bigger exploit I worried about (and didn't mention as I wasn't sure it would be the case) was refining the ores and selling them for more than the component cost. But again, the refining cost covers that, and while the refined ores are worth more, they aren't worth THAT much more.

Between refined ores being worth more and components being worth more, my previous comparisons go out the window, so I'm going back to a more neutral stance. It does seem inconsistent that ammo itself cannot be dismantled, but the components to make it can. There is definately a value in supplying a need when the drop tables are broken, however. Dismantle costs are extremely low relative to manufacture and refine costs, I suppose they could be raised. But the issue is still getting ores into the hands of those who use them, from those that mine them. That has to be efficient enough to compete with ripping and alts, or nothing will make any difference.
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1314720196' post='45374']
It does seem inconsistent that ammo itself cannot be dismantled, but the components to make it can.
[/quote]

Ammo cannot be dismantled simply because it is manufactured in 'stacks', 1 of each comp will create up to 2000 units of ammo. If the terminal could recognize a full stack of ammo for dismantling, maybe it could be implemented, but it's probably a client limitation.
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[quote name='will' timestamp='1314721273' post='45376']
Ammo cannot be dismantled simply because it is manufactured in 'stacks', 1 of each comp will create up to 2000 units of ammo. If the terminal could recognize a full stack of ammo for dismantling, maybe it could be implemented, but it's probably a client limitation.
[/quote]

I didn't say there wasn't a logical reason for it, just that it's inconsistent.

It's actually quite handy, since you need only one unit of ammo for an analysis. However, I could definately see the humor in dismantling one ammo unit, building a stack out of it, dismantling a unit, building another stack, and so on. Infinite ammo! :)

No, obviously that can't work that way.
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About the refined ore vs refining costs dragon, there were ores and gases that you took a net loss and others that there was a net gain from refining and selling during live. There were some you even broke right even. If I remember right sand refines to silicon and was a wash on profit vs refined..i.e. if you refined 5 units to 1 then sold the 1 refined to vendor you got the same profit as 5 raw + terminal cost.

Also consider live there were no TS, so negotiate to mitigate costs at refine terminal,, however you could hand over ores to TT and get optimal vendor return for refined, when doing this almost all ores broke even or above raw+terminal cost.

In live as it is now, there was a deminished returns on refining..once you got TL past some point no TL XP would be generated from trading low level ore, and no EL XP would be gained from refining low level ores.

My point being, you had to pay attention! You might refine stacks and stacks of ore thinking what the heck..so I'm paying more to get xp!..when in actuallity you got no xp from refine or trade xp..taking a depressing net loss. You also had to keep a eye on terminal costs vs. vendor returns and learn which ores not to refine before vendoring ans which actually had a better return in credits for refining them.

With TS in the mix its going to add a whole new wrinkle in the terminal costs vs refine or not to refine decision. Also the 2x or 3x trade xp dip thing...thats supost to be "temporary" that non-exploit exploit shouldn't be in once resurrection occurs.
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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1315117036' post='45639']
About the refined ore vs refining costs dragon, there were ores and gases that you took a net loss and others that there was a net gain from refining and selling during live. There were some you even broke right even. If I remember right sand refines to silicon and was a wash on profit vs refined..i.e. if you refined 5 units to 1 then sold the 1 refined to vendor you got the same profit as 5 raw + terminal cost.[/quote]

It's possible that at higher levels, the refining cost dropped enough for it to make a substantial difference. Also, Prospect level had a dramatic effect; your costs went down, and the prices of high level ores were much higher, and so you were making thousands of credits in profit. The percentages of the original value of the ores, which were in the tens of thousands weren't that much, but as with the effect Negotiate has on Trade, the higher the profit, the larger your percent increase on that profit is.

But I am very aware of what the raw and refined prices were of ores on live. The refined ores were always worth 6 times what the raw ore was. So you only made a profit if the terminal cost of refining was less than the value of one ore. (It takes 5 ores to refine, and you get back the price of 6 ores)

The one thing I don't have records of, unfortunately, is the refine cost. I always assumed it was proportional to the value of the ore, but again, it decreased as your Prospect level went up. So at higher prospect levels you were more likely to have a refine cost that was less than the value of one ore.

On live the value seems to be more like refined is 60 times the value of raw, although I need to confirm that that's a constant, and that it doesn't decrease with higher level. It shouldn't take long, though, I just need to make up a new chart with the prices. And since there is no faction it should be even easier this time. Also, the low level raw ores seem to be rounded off to the nearest credit, which will effect the ratio. This shouldn't be true once I get to the higher level ores, though.

[quote]Also consider live there were no TS, so negotiate to mitigate costs at refine terminal,, however you could hand over ores to TT and get optimal vendor return for refined, when doing this almost all ores broke even or above raw+terminal cost.[/quote]

This is indeed true. And honestly, it would really be less trouble to give ores to a TT to have him build something. :)

Keep in mind, though, that with maximum faction you could still get 1.3 times the base cost. Which should be somewhere around comparable to Negotiate 5 or so. (of course, that also effected the sale price of the raw ores, so all you were really doing is recouping more of the refine cost)

Faction really effected things a lot, and made prices more random. You could make a net loss on one station, and a profit on another. Which was yet another factor to throw into the mix.

[quote]With TS in the mix its going to add a whole new wrinkle in the terminal costs vs refine or not to refine decision. Also the 2x or 3x trade xp dip thing...thats supost to be "temporary" that non-exploit exploit shouldn't be in once resurrection occurs.
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by that. I suppose you can buy ammo comps, rip them for their ores, refine them for the Trade and Explore XP (matching them to your level) and sell them back to the vendor for more XP, but that was possible on live AFAIK and I know of no way to close that "hole". Not unless comp ores are somehow flagged to not award XP for refining them. (And for all I know it was that way on live)

I honestly never considered that possibility as it would obviously be a net loss. Meaning that eventually you would have to run out of money and thus would have to earn your XP some other way. Edited by Dragoncove
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1315340035' post='45789']
On live the value seems to be more like refined is 60 times the value of raw, although I need to confirm that that's a constant, and that it doesn't decrease with higher level. It shouldn't take long, though, I just need to make up a new chart with the prices. And since there is no faction it should be even easier this time. [/quote]

Okay, I have gathered this data, and I can verify that unlike on live, there is NO pattern to the price of either raw or refined ores. I can certainly see that, especially at low levels, it can be somewhat random whether you can get a profit from refining the ores or not.

Let's look at a few examples: (These are at Prospect 3)

Liquid Methane: as Methane, sells for 2, refines for 96, sells for 144. Refined sells for 72 times raw. 5 units raw will net you 10 credits, one refined will net 144-96 = 48 credits. So about 38 credits profit there.

Moonstone: sells for 4 raw, refines for 26, sells for 39. That's only 9.75 times raw. 5 units = 20 credits, refined = 39-26 = 13. So a loss of 7 credits

Obsidian, a fairly high priced level III: sells for 5, refines for 562, sells for 842. Refined is 168.4 times raw. 5 units = 25, refined = 842-562 = 280

Cobalt: sells for 10, refines for 536, sells for 804. Still a profit compared to raw, but the refined price is only 53.6 times raw, less than the Methane.

There's definately no constant here, and it's not comparable to live. There are a few ores, like Moonstone above, that seem to come close to live, but that only makes them that much different.

In general, though, it does look like the refined value of an ore is much higher than its raw value. And components appear to be priced consistently higher as well. So there is definately more cost involved in ripping ores than on live, I would say. Edited by Dragoncove
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What I was meaning about the TS:
negotiate effects not only vendor prices, but TERMINAL prices, a TS with negotiate should be able to refine cheaper than the other 2 class explorers. This will effect the "margin" on raw/refine and profits derived from. Also negotiate effects trade XP recieved from trading, for example doing a trade run from pluto ea lvl of negotiate nets you more xp per item traded. In refining, if formulas hold true, they should stave off the deminished returns from refining a little longer than the other explorers.

Consider: for a exploerer w/ L4 prospect will get little to no xp for refining a L1 ore, however a TS with negotiate may get xp from a L1 refine like it was a L2 ore, thus giving them a inherant advantage without doing the trade to other player and back for the 2x trade xp "exploit" *(not a exploit they know about it and except it)
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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1315644957' post='45963']
What I was meaning about the TS:
negotiate effects not only vendor prices, but TERMINAL prices, a TS with negotiate should be able to refine cheaper than the other 2 class explorers.[/quote]

I know. I just meant that there was no TS on live, therefore there was no class on live that could Prospect AND have Negotiate. Therefore, none of my research includes any consideration of Negotiate. Because it didn't apply at the time I collected it.

Negotiate factors into the emulated game, but I've just said that the emulated costs don't match the live costs. So it's a whole new ball game.

I suppose you could make the argument that the devs raised the sell price of all refined ores to balance the TS against the profit margin of the other two explorers, but quite frankly I don't give them that much credit, and I'm fairly sure you don't either. Edited by Dragoncove
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