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Agrippa Missions Need Simplified A Bit.


JenqDude143

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The fact that you have to jump through hoops to make one beam for the Agrippa tech mission is aggrivating. It's waaaay more complicated than it needs to be. The ARE bugs in these missions. I for one have, on many occasions, triggered them. Like when it asked me to get a level 5 Flachette ammo sample. All I really had to do was reclick the NPC and advance, whether I had the sample or not (and I didn't). Seems if something's too difficult for even you, you make programming errors.... I think some people are put off by how complicated it is, that they just skip it, altogether. Edited by JenqDude
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[quote name='JenqDude' timestamp='1329286366' post='53757']I think some people are put off by how complicated it is, that they just skip it, altogether.[/quote]Write the how-to and it becomes walk-in-a-park.

Take "Call forward" mission for example. It's a joke compared what it was at the time when it was first introduced.
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Better flow for the missions would help. I was doing the stage 1 weapons and components on my privateer and got lost. I did every weapons mission she gave after hull upgrade 50 and all I got out of it was a map for some ammo. Then she started talking about Stage II agrippa. I assumed I was finished and went ahead and leveled to 75. I talked to her again after 75 and she asked for a PL I was supposed to have gotten the pattern for during Stage 1.

I asked BlackLung about it and he said I don't get the pattern for the Effervo PL until hull upgrade 100. This didn't make any sense, so I talked to someone in game about it and he said I had missed something, I needed to craft the recipe I was given and show it to an NPC. I did this and they gave me a print for another type of ammo.

At this point I logged off frustrated. When I logged back in, the mission I had gotten at 75 to present her with the PL was gone from my log completely!

I just shelved my Privateer for now. I have no idea what I'm supposed to do for the next step and if I keep leveling I'll end up locking myself out of all the missions completely. I locked myself out of Agrippa when leveling my Progen Warrior, I'm not doing that again. I tried using a Stage II invite on my PW so I could complete that and get the ammo maps for Flechette. I failed to analyze the beam for the Agrippa Exam 4 times, said screw it, and went back to getting my ammo made by others.

TLDR version, the missions are confusing and you have no idea if you have completed a section or not and there is zero guidance on what to do once you finally do progress. I've got no problem with needing help from others and complete these missions, but a bit more structure in how the missions progress would help immensely.
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I am not on the Progen team but:

The complexity of Agrippa is part of its beauty - when you complete Agrippa you have done something, earned your rewards so to speak.

I agree there is some fine tuning that needs to take place. There may be a few outright bugs, but some of the missions steps could use clarification.
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[b]Please do not adopt the Progen style of minimal instructions for future Terran missions. That will only frustrate more of the playerbase. I don't expect/want to be spoonfed, but good instructions and smooth flowing missions are very important to the fun factor. We don't want players to mothball their Terran toons also.[/b]

[b]I understand the player interaction concept but don't like being forced into it to complete a mission. Depending on other races for raids and equipment builds is fine with me.[/b]
[b]Lots of players, myself included, have toons of different races for that very reason as evident by the number of multi-boxers on the EMU.[/b]
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[quote name='cpwings' timestamp='1329403407' post='53839']
[b]Please do not adopt the Progen style of minimal instructions for future Terran missions. That will only frustrate more of the playerbase. I don't expect/want to be spoonfed, but good instructions and smooth flowing missions are very important to the fun factor. We don't want players to mothball their Terran toons also.[/b]

[b]I understand the player interaction concept but don't like being forced into it to complete a mission. Depending on other races for raids and equipment builds is fine with me.[/b]
[b]Lots of players, myself included, have toons of different races for that very reason as evident by the number of multi-boxers on the EMU.[/b]
[/quote]
*signed and extended for Jenquai* :)
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I've done Agrippa a few times now and ended up feeling disappointed each time.

The content is complex which is good but confusing and ultimately the restraints on build quality are a bitter pill to accept. The tokens and all the other little items (symbols of loyalty, etc) you end up having to retain in inventory are bizarre. Can't progress be tracked in the database without those items? And barring characters that exceed a certain level is just wrong.

I think of the Agrippa content kinda like a turd, a turd that was originally designed to be a complex multi-faceted diamond.

The content needs polishing so that it can become a diamond.

I'm not being harsh describing it as a turd! The content does have promise to be a great experience.
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Most of Agrippa Technology is still only version 1.0.

In next push some modifications with helpful hints have been made, particularly to help the Progen Warriors who test the (3) and (8)'s. Also the Nota NPC will be able to tell you what token missions are currently available to you at your current hull and skill level.

The whole concept of Tokens was to make a means where you could custom your Progen down certain paths.
At the moment Agrippa Tech is the fullest path.

I know it is bit basic, but over time it can get polished and yes, you will still require input from other classes.
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When my Progens got to the level whee the Agrippa stuff came available, I gave it a whirl. Within two days I was forfeiting them, as they were way too overly complicated, and getting the nessessary help was not going well. It ended up feeling like I had gone to work, and that is not a feeling I want to have while playing a game in my off time.
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[quote name='karu' timestamp='1329296058' post='53760']
Write the how-to and it becomes walk-in-a-park.

Take "Call forward" mission for example. It's a joke compared what it was at the time when it was first introduced.
[/quote]
No...even if you write a walk through agrippa wouldn't be a cake walk, it's designed to nessitate bottlenecks and interaction, even if you know how to do every bit of it..and manage not to hit a wall with bugs, you still have to "work".

Perhaps I'm of a different mind set, but having a supervisor telling you to do a task in a deliberately unefficient, or needlessly unproductive motion repeatedly, does not at the completion of the task lead me to a "sense of accomplishment", it only leads me to question the wisdom of said supervisor, and strive to avoid that person, and any further tasks they would assign in the future.

I will provide an example of the "work" that even if there was a walk through explaining it you would have to do, foreknowledge affords you no advantage: PW testsing items, one has you killing a L50 in niff., a mob with a single sector wide spawn, that doesn't respawn for another 20-30 min. and you need to kill 10 of them..so 10x20~30 minutes is= 3-5 hrs. of "work"..oh and add the travel factor from NV....and possible fellow player camp, so at a minimum 3.5-5.5 hrs to test an item for another player...did the mob have to be from tim-buk-too? No...Did it have to have such a insane respawn time/ rarity? No. It's just simply BORING. Does the PW feel like they have done something monumental? No....just endured a snoozefest.

Ok..how about for a PS: several of their missions require mass amounts of ore to hand over to a PP to turn into comps so they can build from..ok..forced content..knew that going in right..not a biggie, but the MASSES of the ore you need is in low availability due to so few mining spots...so you are forced to camp the same 2 spots the ore spawn and wait for field respawn...once again waiting needlessly for something to spawn for long periods of time..BORING...guess what? Those ores you just mined for your stuff?.....everyone elses (PP/PW) builds are going to need those same ores for you to build the parts they need...oh joy..more field camping......
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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1329453972' post='53864']
No...even if you write a walk through agrippa wouldn't be a cake walk, it's designed to nessitate bottlenecks and interaction, even if you know how to do every bit of it..and manage not to hit a wall with bugs, you still have to "work". [/quote]

One unnecessary bottleneck I can't stand are the "exams" for agrippa stage 2 invites. First you have to find someone with the invite. Fine, I understand that. It's expensive, requires a lot of credits to get started. I understand this. It requires a lot of Collegia faction. This makes sense too from a story standpoint.

But did you really have to give the exam item a huge chance to fail analysis? Once you fail you not only need a new invite, but you have to pay for everything all over again. It was easier to map the entire line of Terran Advantage engines, and at least they are useful. If you are going to make them nearly impossible to analyze at least let us "buy" another one from the mission NPC without having to track down someone with an invite handy. Can you imagine the frustration of all of this? You spend hours or days working to get your credits and your faction ready to start this chain of missions. You acquire an invite from Market channel or from a friend and fly yourself all the way to Norstrand Vor only to fail the analysis.

The rest of the mission is challenging enough without the analysis bottleneck.
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[quote name='Toaster' timestamp='1329465283' post='53873']
One unnecessary bottleneck I can't stand are the "exams" for agrippa stage 2 invites. First you have to find someone with the invite. Fine, I understand that. It's expensive, requires a lot of credits to get started. I understand this. It requires a lot of Collegia faction. This makes sense too from a story standpoint.

But did you really have to give the exam item a huge chance to fail analysis? Once you fail you not only need a new invite, but you have to pay for everything all over again. It was easier to map the entire line of Terran Advantage engines, and at least they are useful. If you are going to make them nearly impossible to analyze at least let us "buy" another one from the mission NPC without having to track down someone with an invite handy. Can you imagine the frustration of all of this? You spend hours or days working to get your credits and your faction ready to start this chain of missions. You acquire an invite from Market channel or from a friend and fly yourself all the way to Norstrand Vor only to fail the analysis.

The rest of the mission is challenging enough without the analysis bottleneck.
[/quote]

Gotta disagree with you on this bro, and ill tell ya why.
Back in the day there was this nice uber item that dropped from the Controller raid called the Dragons Dreadmail Elite mkVIII/IX. Ya know the "skull shield" with the awesome skull in space graphic and the 15% activated turbo buff. A very nice item indeed...

Let me tell you how hard this item was to get. The controller spawned once every 10-14 days (generally about a 2 week timer, memory is fuzzy on the precise, but it was very long). Which meant that two skull shields a month were possible to be obtained on any given server.

Back then it required three or four groups to defeat the controller raid. So 18-24 players would then roll for the item. One lucky person would loot (usually pre-assigned, rarely lottoed) the no-trade core to turn in for the shield.

That was if you were even ON the rotation list. Static had a stranglehold on it, so it was worked out among the three or four largest guilds to share it on a rotation. Basically there were 3 slots and a fourth open one static would take if no one else did on that day. Static, Merchant Marines, Omega Corps each had their own time, and then once ever two months random guilds with the help of Static MM or OC maybe would win, if not static would KS it and take the loot.

Now, to break this down. Unless you were a guild leader or raid leader or something crazy where youd spent 2 billion credits for predetermined looting rights, your chances were ZERO of getting a skull shield in less than a year, absolute fact. In fact most guilds didnt do lotto, it was assigned by rank in guild so the leaders would get first dibs and everyone knew this was "Skydudes Skull raid" and so on. My turn wasnt until 6+ months after the game ended actually, when I think back, it would been late 2004/early 2005 before the rank 5 members of the guild were in line. Otherwise I might have gotten lucky if someone didnt show up, or there was some reason to random lotto.

I actually got my skull shield in live by hosting a random controller raid with Serinna and MM like 2 months before the final shutdown after everyone had basically left already (I was the only person still on andro repping the OC tag, a guild of 1100 members, at least as far as i could tell, everyone had gone to eve and swg by then), after attending or leading probably 30 or 40 controller raids in my time in EnB live.


Basically to summarize, these agrippa missions have a much higher rate of success over time than the most difficult to obtain item in live ever did. Yeah you might have bottlenecks and frustrations, but do 30 controller raids a year and never get the one item you want for your effort and lemme know which is worse. Just saying. Edited by Ryle
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1329486958' post='53885']
Gotta disagree with you on this bro, and ill tell ya why.
Back in the day there was this nice uber item that dropped from the Controller raid called the Dragons Dreadmail Elite mkVIII/IX. Ya know the "skull shield" with the awesome skull in space graphic and the 15% activated turbo buff. A very nice item indeed...

Let me tell you how hard this item was to get. The controller spawned once every 10-14 days (generally about a 2 week timer, memory is fuzzy on the precise, but it was very long). Which meant that two skull shields a month were possible to be obtained on any given server.

Back then it required three or four groups to defeat the controller raid. So 18-24 players would then roll for the item. One lucky person would win the no-trade core to turn in for the shield.

That was if you were even ON the rotation list. Static had a stranglehold on it, so it was worked out among the three or four largest guilds to share it on a rotation. Basically there were 3 slots and a fourth open one static would take if no one else did on that day. Static, Merchant Marines, Omega Corps each had their own time, and then once ever two months random guilds with the help of Static MM or OC maybe would win, if not static would KS it and take the loot.

Now, to break this down. Unless you were a guild leader or raid leader or something crazy where youd spent 2 billion credits for predetermined looting rights, your chances were ZERO of getting a skull shield in less than a year, absolute fact. In fact most guilds didnt do lotto, it was assigned by rank in guild so the leaders would get first dibs and everyone knew this was "Skydudes Skull raid" and so on. My turn wasnt until 6+ months after the game ended actually, when I think back, it would been late 2004/early 2005 before the rank 5 members of the guild were in line. Otherwise I might have gotten lucky if someone didnt show up, or there was some reason to random lotto.

I actually got my skull shield in live by hosting a random controller raid like 2 months before the final shutdown after everyone had basically left already (I was the only person still on andro repping the OC tag, a guild of 1100 members, at least as far as i could tell, everyone had gone to eve and swg by then), after attending or leading probably 30 or 40 controller raids in my time in EnB live.


Basically to summarize, these agrippa missions have a much higher rate of success over time than the most difficult to obtain item in live ever did. Yeah you might have bottlenecks and frustrations, but do 30 controller raids a year and never get the one item you want for your effort and lemme know which is worse. Just saying.
[/quote]

You are not really comparing apples to apples here. A problem I see with a mission line that restricts one to maintain a certain level to complete parts AND takes a huge amount of time and cooperation from others has a basic flaw. This flaw is that in doing these missions you really can ONLY do these missions 100% to completion for fear of gaining levels that may exclude you from completing additional steps. If you need to take a break from them you basically have to play a different character or not play.

I may be totally wrong here, as I was locked out of the agrippa missions by leveling my PW and PS while the missions were going through the many changes. My comment is only based on what I have observed and not first hand.
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Well mimir mostly im riffing on the "fail/success" of mission completion. Just because someone finishes, doesnt mean it should be a guaranteed drop. So long as its repeatable.

I do agree that there shouldnt be a by level lockout, sounds to me like going back and doing the missions you missed while leveling would be enough effort to justify the reward, given the fail/success rate at the final stage.

I was just disagreeing with the concept of "Oh, i did this and didnt get my shiny the first time like I wanted"

I mean, im not gonna even try to calculate ammo costs and repairing/rebuilding of high level raid items to see how much my skull shield was. I know it took me almost 2 years to get it and 30+ tries, thats what I am saying. Edited by Ryle
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You may have missed what toasters heart of complaint was, they weren't complaining mostly about failed scan (they said that was expected) it was the invite consumption/fail/notrepeatable without another invite.

Remember the invites are in finite supply, they require a progen to have done all the content, then recieve as one of the rewards from doing so, "invites" that they can extend to other players to experience the headaches they indured :). They can't do a repeatable mission to obtain more invites so they can extend it to others, once used its gone, zero, zip, nada no more. Toaster's point was..once they use a invite they should be "in the test" until completed, weither they needed to pay an additional "exam fee" or not is moot. Take the test...fail..your out, sorry get another invite.

Go to the DMV fail the written..o.k. go study, pay the fee try again later, no shut out for months on end, take the SAT...don't like the results...after a small wait period, pay another fee and retake etc. Toasters point was using the invite they were "invited", if they must on fail pay a fee to retake it fine, but don't make them track down something in finite supply to possibly fail again.

Sort of like inviting someone over for dinner and a drink, let them in your house..enjoy a fabulous dinner, then noticed they drink a differnt brand of drink than you and eject them for ever more from your house for the "crime" of not enjoying the house brand of drinks....poor host at best and ass in actuality :)
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Remember, that content especially through the ammo/weap mission arc rewards weap/ammo that is highly desirable, one can argue a near "must" for a progen. Since PS can't build ammo/weaps they have to find others that can to build their ammo, the fewer ammo builders with fletchette recipes the less chance a PS can load up, not to mention the damage types, a PP can build chem/impact ammo and a PW all 4 types. So any player that wants, say, plasma or explosive ammo needs to hunt up a PW that has done all the content to get loaded, but through the invites, other races can make 1 fletchette ammo type, thus expanding a PS's chance of finding a builder.

So outside a "content" standpoint on the invites, a supply of gear arguement can be made, to not restrict others from content so much. Right now since there are some tha are so willing to help its not so bad on ammo etc. But live it could be real bad for a PS having to track a ammo builder. Or any manufactred reactor a progen could use for that matter.
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I agree with Mattsacre on all points, and would like to add that with a relatively small population finding what you need is going to get tough, especially after a total wipe. I know it won't be an issue for a while but it will be as more of the population levels up. I see the requirements for interdependent between the races/classes working with a large game population. But with the current (no alt) population it does not make much sense to me.

I also know that some lucky seed players were given the necessary parts to allow others to continue with these missions, but what is the plan going forward after a wipe? If the B man bails on us (devs have been known to leave the project) are the Agrippa missions self sustaining from patch to patch? Without "seeding"?

All I know
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Well what I'm attempting is to put in to the first stage in the talk tree more interraction with the NPC that will tell you why you can't progress instead of a (I wonder why I can't progress). This will mean that you can get into the mission if you don't have all the requirements and then get told why you can't continue and the mission is then dropped from your log, giving you time to work on that requirement, should you want to.

Now to simplify the line I've got to work backwards down the lines.

However, more NPC fleshing out is likely occur so faction is likley to feature more, modifying the required Collegia faction depending on other level of factions you have. However, if the modified Collegia faction value is not the value you currently have you will be told that for example

"Due to your [Dire] relationship with my allies, I require from you [xxxxx] Collegia Faction and a gift of [xxxxx]. Until you obtain these, you will not be able to continue this research"
- Mission removed from log.

Other questions recovered could include
"You have not maxed your skill in Build [xxxx], In order to research [xxxx] you need a skill level of [7]"

"You have yet to complete the mission "This is the mission to be done before this mission". Please contact [xxxx] at [xxxx] in the system of [xxxx] for further details"

By tailoring these responses to how your character is set up, you will not see all the potential responses at the same time. However it does involve some rather complex Boolean statements so upgrading will take time. Also, the back story of each NPC is to be fleshed out with the responses.

FYI the range of faction multiplication on the base Collegia Faction is likely to be between 0.6 to 1.8.

Also

"Collegia was implemented by the Centuriata who gifted them the system of Mars Gamma and Altair. They owe the centuriata."
So Centuriata faction is likely to be positive.

"The Collegia was created to break the stranglehold of InfinitiCorp and for Progen to create their own gear"
So InfinitiCorp is likely to be negative

Enemies of the Progen are also likely to be negative (some may have personal positives).
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In comment to the other races trying it.
They didn't have to be invited to a Collegia Research, they have the very slim chance of becoming invited.

After all there are items restricted to say the TS or others like TT devices only. However, the invites are a wild card for inviting anyone. And the means to create one is provided at each stage of Agrippa Technology but only if a player has done Stage I.

The main route to Stage II is via Stage I for Progen or the Symbol of Loyalty and most Token Bonus missions reward this anyway in the end.
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[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1329488126' post='53888']
Well mimir mostly im riffing on the "fail/success" of mission completion. Just because someone finishes, doesnt mean it should be a guaranteed drop. So long as its repeatable.

I do agree that there shouldnt be a by level lockout, sounds to me like going back and doing the missions you missed while leveling would be enough effort to justify the reward, given the fail/success rate at the final stage.

I was just disagreeing with the concept of "Oh, i did this and didnt get my shiny the first time like I wanted"

I mean, im not gonna even try to calculate ammo costs and repairing/rebuilding of high level raid items to see how much my skull shield was. I know it took me almost 2 years to get it and 30+ tries, thats what I am saying.
[/quote]

You missed the point completely Ryle. The Beam you Analyze for the Exam is the FIRST part of the quest. It's totally useless and only needed to start the stage II quest chain. You can't start the chain without analyzing this beam. That's my problem when it comes to Stage II invites.
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FYI Work in progress:

Stage II Agrippa Technology - Shield VIII [AT_Version 2.0.shield]
• Should:

1. Have Dynamic Faction requirement (But you will be told what is required in the text talk tree)
2. Able to question if you will be eligible for Stage III of Agrippa Technology (Shields) and if not, why.
--- If this was the fact you are missing some Stage I missions but did the first Stage I Token Mission (Shields)
--- then you will be able to find out what mission you are missing in the line and what item is required to trigger it
3. Should you be unable to continue the mission (due to Faction . or other) mission drops from log and is able to be reobtained

*Dynamic Faction*
- By working off the enemies of Architecti Scuti you can discover how to reduce the Collegia Faction requirement significantly.

*Mission Question"
- Discover what may be missing in Stage I, directly looks up what missions you have completed and references where there is a missing mission / less reliant on GM interraction

*Mission Dropped*
- Quick and easy. There may be over 40 different sub talk trees but you should only ever encounter between 4-6 as all the rest are not seen as you do not have the requirements to access them. This couples dynamic referrence with the database with ease of navigation by yourself.
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yes, we're working it out so devs can allow the NPC's to provide more feedback. In that respect it should get a bit more organised.

To be fair, Byackee has driven a lot of the improvements and fixes to the mission handling system by pushing the boundaries in this way. I doubt the system would be as robust as it is now without these missions.

I am not commenting on difficulty or whether the mission should be changed, only that from a different perspective these kind of mission setups are very healthy for the server - if they need to be changed in the future so be it, but for now this kind of thing is a valuable learning exercise for all of us, both in server and game terms.
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I like Agrippa but do agree that some polishing would be great.

Also, there is NO way that a first-time character can complete Agrippa. My PW went broke several times doing Agrippa and had to borrow millions of credits from buddies. I just spend over 40million credits on analyzing the Mobius components on my PP, after totally freaking out when I failed the first time because I had no idea that I could just go back to the NPC and buy more. It took me talking to several players and studying the DB for some time and caused true, real anger & frustration.

Then I had to find a PW to kill the Enhejar Woden 10x. There exists only 1 Woden in the entire game. Thankfully it spawns every 6-12minutes, but still, what PW friend wants to sit there for 1.5 hours waiting for respawns without getting any xp or something? And the suggestion to pay him cash is silly because I can't pay him cash because I am broke from Agrippa. (Woden is definitely better than trying to do the quest out of VT, 5x killing the Ostarae Vega that spawns once an hour.)

What's very confusing to me is trying to figure out which part of Agrippa I am eligible for, and which parts I've already done. So help there would be fantastic!

Lastly, I am now seriously regretting doing Agrippa on my PP. I wasn't playing the game when Agrippa was implemented and when I returned from that break my PP was already above OL50, so I was unable to do stage 1. So now my PP is not as useful in helping other players as I would have liked her to be had I been able to do Agrippa stage 1.

Is there any way veteran players who were beyond OL50 when Agrippa was implemented could be allowed to do stage 1, and subsequently stage 3?

Again, I really, really like the idea of Agrippa, its complexity, and I don't want to be spoon-fed. It just needs a bit of polishing.

Thanks, Byakhee, for working so hard on Agrippa!

Cheers,
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  • 2 weeks later...
[quote name='Byakhee' timestamp='1329513698' post='53901']
The main route to Stage II is via Stage I for Progen or the Symbol of Loyalty and most Token Bonus missions reward this anyway in the end.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure I finished Stage one on PW, but then again, this is all overly confusing...I apparently phailed the stage 2 beam, and wasnt even allowed to do Stage 2 w/o the symbol of Loyalty...so, it's apparently NOT an either/or thing. Which leaves me to HAVE to obtain more Symbols of Loyalty to continue...I even did a Token Bonus mission for Gratis Augustus Var to kill some Antibodies near the Pax Decima, but got no Symbol of Loyalty for my troubles...I also did the level 100 Shield Leech Token mission, Again, no Symbol of Loyalty. And no way to get another exam weapon to map. Edited by JenqDude
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The bonus mission you want to do continues from the antibodies.

However, you will only get this one when you are level 150.
"Capture the Cargo" is one that gives out a Symbol of Loyalty.

Please note.
Not all Token Bonus missions will award a Symbol of Loyalty, the only route to guarantee entry into Stage II as Progen is to have done the required Stage I.


Normally, this will only be given if:

1. do a high level token bonus mission
2. complete Stage I
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