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Mimir

New Pop Rock whine

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NExt stage is Alpha, We have had 4 Stress tests and no Beta as yet. We are nowhere near 'Gold'. Still a lot of bugs to fix and developement work to be done before then.

Rolo

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Please, add pop mobs that one shot kill lowbies giving them a reason to have better than L5 shields.

Remove the peter north style roids - dozens of L9 ores is a bit too much.

Change the colour of pop roids to be indistinguishable from normal ones. Otherwise lowbies can actively avoid them...

????

Suddenly a reason to level a miner past L80 is created.
  • Downvote 3

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PLEASE CAN WE STAY ON TOPIC!

Firstly, all I'm reading are emotive posts about how awful/good/useful poprocks are, and 'when is the p-wipe'. I have to skim over all the fluff in the posts.

All I'm asking for is some kind of agreement on how the things should work. At the moment I'm thinking just to reduce the amount of ores in the poprocks and increase the pop chances and leave it at that.

Short, concise is good. Any post with a paragraph longer than 3 lines with no figures will be deleted.

Let's try to make poprocks cool, but not exploitable. This is our mission brief.

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Pop rocks look exactly like normal rocks, always pop.

Pop rock mobs Miners CL for L6 and below rocks. Miners CL + 1-3 for L7+

Equal chance of random buff, debuff, shield damage (up to 20% of cap), mob.

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OK..here goes, live poprock mobs were never one shoters unless you was crushing rocks way over your head and under geared. The mobs were based on the level of the rock..simple as that, they were like the job mobs with a -1 or +1 variance over rock lvl. They were predominatly of the oberous or ceelite type mobs..but there were others. They had a slightly better loot table over mobs of like level, ancedotal postulation put that at about +20% chance of superior loot or level.

Poprocks were distingusable from others..not by color or shape, but by close examination of texture, they had a very slightly different skin pattern..unless you closely examined and took the time you inverably popped them. They had about a 1/3 chance of a mob, a bad effect or a good effect happening. The good effect might in practice actually be undesirable, as a for instance it boosted thrust by +500-1000, if you was in tight mining, over thrusting might not be desiarable, but desirable in other instances.

Poprocks of the KABOOM! variety were also level damage specific, a L5 ore didn't KABOOM! for a like amount of damage as a L9. Pop mobs were there A. to add spice and B. keep ore ninjas from hogging all of a fields ore.

Poprocks agroed on the rock popper from proximity, if that miner left then the next nearest if in scan range would be agroed. If a miner left and no others were there to be agroed they became a new field guardian until someone capped them, thus low level miners mining over there level would have to call in the cavelry, or pass.

The other undesirable effects were predominately debuffs that hindered mining, such as lowered reactor recharge, lowered shield recharge after a small kaboom, increased signature, lowered thrust, increased mass etc.

Most buff-debuff poprocks had a 10-15 min timer on their effects, nothing totaling godness-crippling, just spicing experience. The mob based rocks had a variety of mobs that had differing resistances, such as oborous resisted plasma, ceelite impact etc. so no one type of miner had a disadvantage or advantage in dispatching them.

So as to current poprocks, I think those that are complaining about damage to shields aren't really torqued on shield/hull dmg its the "disparity", why ahould a L5 kill 90% of your shield and a L9 also do so if you have a L9 shield? As to the amounts in rocks, it never was in the multiples of 20..it usually topped out at 12 maybe..when you saw that amount it triggered the "too good to be true" alarm and we would look closer for poprockiness.

It was the hulks that had higher amounts of both refined and nonrefined ores, those were far fewer and had a pop all gone! possibility, so it wasn't overbalancing as others are complaining about huge multiples of L9 ores.

NO is my vote on the disabling completely from a bad pull. IF you get a KABOOM!er and then keep pulling without having shield topped off, then yes, I agree you should run that "living on the edge" risk of total incapacity. I did like that EMP idea however, maybe KABOOM!ers could have a damage type variance as part of there effect, maybe a plasma,energy,explosive, impact etc. explosion would be cool, would encourage explorers to buff multiple resists or have to make a equipment choice.

Have to agree on the field plentitude and variance, we simply lake huge swaths of fields and the plentitude in them. While L9 ores weren't in huge abundance in any one field, they were in abundance scattered throughout the universe. Those that had concentrations of upper tier ores also had like levels of guardians and a scattering of poppers throughout.

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1314927287' post='45557']

How about pop rocks up to level 4 will only cause shield damage, and their intensity is capped according to level.

From 5-7, they can actually cause hull damage.

From 8-9, they can be lethal.

[/quote]
I wouldn't want to see any change that introduces the chance of insta-death. If increased lethality is the goal, fine, but instead of just having the rock explode and kill the player instead spawn a high level mob. This gives the player the chance to fight or flee (or at least try).

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ok so I'm liking what I'm seeing here so far:

[list]
[*]no insta-death! The worst that should happen is a bit of a boom and a big 'ol mob pop out.
[*]small chance to actually pluck the ores, although at level 8/9 there should be increased risk. Small chance of hull/component damage and a fair chance for mob popping out.
[*]Buffs/debuffs sometimes when poprocks pop!
[*]If pop rock explodes, damage should be proportional to rock level not player cap (I did it this way initially to ensure players would never be incap'd when pulling poprocks).
[/list]

Should there be mobs pop out even when buffs are given? What about explosions?

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1315293404' post='45765']
ok so I'm liking what I'm seeing here so far:

[list]
[*]no insta-death! The worst that should happen is a bit of a boom and a big 'ol mob pop out.
[*]small chance to actually pluck the ores, although at level 8/9 there should be increased risk. Small chance of hull/component damage and a fair chance for mob popping out.
[*]Buffs/debuffs sometimes when poprocks pop!
[*]If pop rock explodes, damage should be proportional to rock level not player cap (I did it this way initially to ensure players would never be incap'd when pulling poprocks).
[/list]

Should there be mobs pop out even when buffs are given? What about explosions?
[/quote]

and lower the amount of ores in the pop rocks! 20+ is way too high

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1315293404' post='45765']
ok so I'm liking what I'm seeing here so far:

[list][*]no insta-death! The worst that should happen is a bit of a boom and a big 'ol mob pop out.[*]small chance to actually pluck the ores, although at level 8/9 there should be increased risk. Small chance of hull/component damage and a fair chance for mob popping out.[*]Buffs/debuffs sometimes when poprocks pop![*]If pop rock explodes, damage should be proportional to rock level not player cap (I did it this way initially to ensure players would never be incap'd when pulling poprocks).[/list]

Should there be mobs pop out even when buffs are given? What about explosions?
[/quote]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Since I started this I wanted to say thank you. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]But you forgot to put in decrease frequency or occurrence of them appearing in the fields.
:) [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="1"](Sorry no chart)[/size][/font]

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1315293404' post='45765']
[list]
[*]If pop rock explodes, damage should be proportional to rock level not player cap (I did it this way initially to ensure players would never be incap'd when pulling poprocks).
[/list]
[/quote]
Yes, damage should be proportional to rock level, and I think should be of the same level as the cap of an average shield one level below the rock (JE's only get lvl 8 shields, so taking lvl 9 shield damage would be unfair).

Damage could decrease with distance in a similar manner as beam damage did in live (Full damage to half range, then linear decrease to half damage at full range). Range could be scaled in relation to the prospect range for the appropriate prospect skill level.

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The "risk" in mining a Pop Rock is the time that you then have to wait for your shield to recharge. Let's be honest here, no one would go into combat if 10% of the time, a MOB had one chance to fire a beam that would instantly kill you. Even if that one MOB was clearly identifiable as such. "Risk vs Reward" does not justify one shot kills. Even in combat, when you are outclassed you are given a chance to run for it.

Now, if a Pop Rock released a MOB, or exploded AGAIN after a short delay, giving you time to activate your warp and make an attempt to get clear, then yes, I'd say that's acceptable risk for a greater reward. But just randomly killing the player because you feel like it is not "risk", that's lousy game design. And likely to get your game relegated to the bargain bin.

If the problem is with low level miners mining high level ores, then the solution should be, I think, to target the low level miners mining higher level ores. Low level warriors cannot defeat higher level MOBs, because their weapons simply aren't strong enough to defeat them, at least not without taking enough time that only a tanking class could consider it. My suggestion would be if you are lower level than the ore you are trying to prospect, you have a chance to "lose" some of it. That way the penalty applies whether you avoid the Pop Rocks or not.

If the miners LIKE having only one ore of any given L9 type in any asteroid, then never mind that. Remove the "schmuck bait" from the Pop Rocks and be done with it. The chance to successfully mine one without having to worry about the consequences would be the incentive to raise your level.
  • Upvote 1

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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1315338003' post='45788']
The "risk" in mining a Pop Rock is the time that you then have to wait for your shield to recharge. Let's be honest here, no one would go into combat if 10% of the time, a MOB had one chance to fire a beam that would instantly kill you. Even if that one MOB was clearly identifiable as such. "Risk vs Reward" does not justify one shot kills. Even in combat, when you are outclassed you are given a chance to run for it.

Now, if a Pop Rock released a MOB, or exploded AGAIN after a short delay, giving you time to activate your warp and make an attempt to get clear, then yes, I'd say that's acceptable risk for a greater reward. But just randomly killing the player because you feel like it is not "risk", that's lousy game design. And likely to get your game relegated to the bargain bin.

If the problem is with low level miners mining high level ores, then the solution should be, I think, to target the low level miners mining higher level ores. Low level warriors cannot defeat higher level MOBs, because their weapons simply aren't strong enough to defeat them, at least not without taking enough time that only a tanking class could consider it. My suggestion would be if you are lower level than the ore you are trying to prospect, you have a chance to "lose" some of it. That way the penalty applies whether you avoid the Pop Rocks or not.

If the miners LIKE having only one ore of any given L9 type in any asteroid, then never mind that. Remove the "schmuck bait" from the Pop Rocks and be done with it. The chance to successfully mine one without having to worry about the consequences would be the incentive to raise your level.
[/quote]

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1315338003' post='45788']
[...] Let's be honest here, no one would go into combat if 10% of the time, a MOB had one chance to fire a beam that would instantly kill you. [...] Even in combat, when you are outclassed you are given a chance to run for it.
[/quote]

Not true Not true, Take a level 20,30,40,50 or even 60 Combat level character into Cooper and attack a Tengu. See how fast you get dead, the same should apply to pop rocks. If you are max shield etc. you might survive if not don't pull level 9 ores unless you are maxed out. As for chance to run ...well unless the fish have gone soft on me they will take your engine off line and then kill you, not giving you a chance to run. This is the same thing, you hunt over your level you get dead, and you pull pop rocks over your level you get dead. Exciting ain't it?

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1315338003' post='45788']
Now, if a Pop Rock released a MOB, or exploded AGAIN after a short delay, giving you time to activate your warp and make an attempt to get clear, then yes, I'd say that's acceptable risk for a greater reward. But just randomly killing the player because you feel like it is not "risk", that's lousy game design. And likely to get your game relegated to the bargain bin.
[/quote]
What you are saying is you want it handed to you. How about a countdown timer? You pull what you want and if you watch the timer you can get away? Please....!

[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1315338003' post='45788']
If the problem is with low level miners mining high level ores, then the solution should be, I think, to target the low level miners mining higher level ores. Low level warriors cannot defeat higher level MOBs, because their weapons simply aren't strong enough to defeat them, at least not without taking enough time that only a tanking class could consider it. My suggestion would be if you are lower level than the ore you are trying to prospect, you have a chance to "lose" some of it. That way the penalty applies whether you avoid the Pop Rocks or not.
[/quote]
You are saying two different things here, above you say hitting a mob won't one shot you and here you are saying a mob can one shot you. You are saying a lower player pulling from a level 9 pop rock should always get "some of it", not get dead or in any way have a penalty and hitting mobs too big for them should never kill them and give them a chance to kill it. Do I detect a care bear?


[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1315338003' post='45788']
If the miners LIKE having only one ore of any given L9 type in any asteroid, then never mind that. Remove the "schmuck bait" from the Pop Rocks and be done with it. The chance to successfully mine one without having to worry about the consequences would be the incentive to raise your level.
[/quote]
How does being able to pull high level pop rocks at a lower level encourage one to raise their level? That is a reverse incentive to raise your level. I can kill fish in cooper at level 10 and pull level 9 ores at level 20, why would I need the expense of high level gear?

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I don't think that L9 pop rock blasts should be able to kill a miner that's not maxed. Even if you did say maxed, do you mean a Maxed JE, or a maxed PE? That's a pretty big shield difference, with the PE having 2x the shield of the JE.

What should provide the danger is the mobs guarding the orefield, which you should need an apropriate level & geared explorer to mine there, and when it comes to pop rocks, the mobs that come out some of the time. The possiblity of debuffs can also work against you. Debuff your signature (increase it), and you will get more attention from the orefield guardians, debuff your shields, or reactor, and you're also vulnerable, but in a different way. Now a few new mobs to guard orefields that we haven't seen before, and explorer gear to deal with them, would be a nice addition over time.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1315347863' post='45804']
I don't think that L9 pop rock blasts should be able to kill a miner that's not maxed. Even if you did say maxed, do you mean a Maxed JE, or a maxed PE? That's a pretty big shield difference, with the PE having 2x the shield of the JE.

What should provide the danger is the mobs guarding the orefield, which you should need an apropriate level & geared explorer to mine there, and when it comes to pop rocks, the mobs that come out some of the time. The possiblity of debuffs can also work against you. Debuff your signature (increase it), and you will get more attention from the orefield guardians, debuff your shields, or reactor, and you're also vulnerable, but in a different way. Now a few new mobs to guard orefields that we haven't seen before, and explorer gear to deal with them, would be a nice addition over time.
[/quote]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Ok, I give up. Pop rocks should do nothing more than go “POP” throw a bit of confetti and possibly have Megan say, “You win!” While we are making this a game of no risk can we put ALL the comps for higher level weapons back into the NPC vendors and low level mobs? Oh and how about we roll back the FB so it can be done solo? While we are making things less risky, how about making the RD gates accessible to all again? Isn’t that discriminating against those that don’t want to take the time or are too small to kill the Chavez mobs? Hell why don’t we just make everyone 150 on new character creation and have the GMs pass out uber weapons and gear? No wait, remove all mobs and roids and just have the stuff floating in space to be scooped up? [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]/end sarcasm[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]If the pop rocks have no risk why are they in game? Was it to limit the bots? If there is no risk to the rest of us they are no risk to the bots either. [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]It seems a lot of fuss about a bad implementation of a relatively rare item from live.[/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]If they have to stay as they are, make them rare. >33% of an ore field is ridiculous even 10% is too much. [/font][/size]

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Pop rocks can work just fine, without being instant death. We're not arguing that they should do nothing, but that the existing amount of damage is way over the top. Insta-death by pop-rock only makes it further over the top.

A mob coming out and attacking an explorer is a danger to said explorer, and I think such mobs should exist. (didn't think I needed to repeat something I'd already said earlier in the thread) I also think said mobs should have loot tables that make the "fight" option worthwhile. I don't think they should always drop useful equipment, but that there should be some small chance that they do when killed. If all they drop is junk, then the run option is nearly always the better option.

Pop rock mobs should have skills that they can use in combat, comparable to same level normal mobs. Pop rocks can also have buffs or debuffs, at random, that can help or hurt your ability to mine, or your abilty to avoid the orefield guardians. I think that there should be more than just bam dead, from said pop-rocks.

Apropriate level guardians, will make it too dangerous for miners that are too low level for the field, without the need for insta death pop-rocks.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1315351032' post='45808']
Pop rocks can work just fine, without being instant death. We're not arguing that they should do nothing, but that the existing amount of damage is way over the top. Insta-death by pop-rock only makes it further over the top.

A mob coming out and attacking an explorer is a danger to said explorer, and I think such mobs should exist. (didn't think I needed to repeat something I'd already said earlier in the thread) I also think said mobs should have loot tables that make the "fight" option worthwhile. I don't think they should always drop useful equipment, but that there should be some small chance that they do when killed. If all they drop is junk, then the run option is nearly always the better option.

Pop rock mobs should have skills that they can use in combat, comparable to same level normal mobs. Pop rocks can also have buffs or debuffs, at random, that can help or hurt your ability to mine, or your abilty to avoid the orefield guardians. I think that there should be more than just bam dead, from said pop-rocks.

Apropriate level guardians, will make it too dangerous for miners that are too low level for the field, without the need for insta death pop-rocks.
[/quote]


Ok then I bring up the point of forced grouping that seems to be all the rage in the EMU. Don't mine a field "alone" if you can't handle the guardians or danger. Pretty simple ...even though in live mining was (to me) a solo activity. But I never whined when something untold happened, instant death or mobbed by some roving mob or other.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1315352236' post='45809']
Ok then I bring up the point of forced grouping that seems to be all the rage in the EMU. Don't mine a field "alone" if you can't handle the guardians or danger. Pretty simple ...even though in live mining was (to me) a solo activity. But I never whined when something untold happened, instant death or mobbed by some roving mob or other.
[/quote]

What does forced grouping have to do with anything I said? If you're mining a field apropriate to your level, you can go solo. You can also kill over your CL with any of the 3 explorers with the right tactics. My beef, with Live, was the insistence of using Manes as an orefield guardian, due to their immunity to energy weapons, coupled with the lack of variety in plasma beam options for a JE above L7. Not much point to customizable ships, if you have very few weapon choices, that actually damage, your enemies. Variety and choice actually being more important than DPS (provided it was level apropriate).

I do think that orefield guardians should be a challenge, but should be able to be dealt with solo by any of the 3 explorers.

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I never had a miner during live so I won't comment on the differences from then to now.

To be honest, I have a TS and use him to unwind from combat with my warrior types by mining for pleasure or to gather ammo ores. I get plenty of risk of death while in combat with my warrior toons.

I was under the impression that pop-roids were reintroduced to discourage macro-mining. If that is indeed the case then appearance probably doesn't matter and anyone else could easily recognise and avoid them.

As I see it, guardians should be able to discourage macroers. Pop-roids should spawn a guardian of a level appropriate to the ores in the field and perhaps aggro any other guardians nearby. There would need to be a timer involved which despawns that guardian and cancels aggro if the miner leaves the field.
To eliminate exploiting, no large quantities of high level ores , just enough to tempt the unsuspecting macro user.

If you have to satisfy a blood lust by use of risk of insta-death, how about adding an ocasional space mine to hulk fields instead but make them rare.

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ok in addition to the points I said earlier also add:

[list]
[*]reduce ore count in pop rocks to < 20.
[/list]

I'll have them working that way and we can take things from there.

So in summary:

[list]
[*]no insta-death! The worst that should happen is a bit of a boom and a big 'ol mob pop out.
[*]small chance to actually pluck the ores, although at level 8/9 there should be increased risk. Small chance of hull/component damage and a fair chance for mob popping out.
[*]Buffs/debuffs sometimes when poprocks pop!
[*]If pop rock explodes, damage should be proportional to rock level not player cap (I did it this way initially to ensure players would never be incap'd when pulling poprocks).
[*]reduce ore count in pop rocks to < 20.
[*]Only 1 effect per pop ie Mob OR Blast OR Buff OR Nothing (player can collect ores).
[/list]

Once this has been implemented I'll reopen the thread and we can fine tune it from there.

Cheers and thanks for help & suggestions!

TB
  • Upvote 2

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ok all these suggestions have now been implemented, we can now fine tune what we want to happen ... Also if you have any ideas for other mobs that should spawn from pop rocks please let me know. I've got the rock spore and rock leech.

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1316127756' post='46153']
ok all these suggestions have now been implemented, we can now fine tune what we want to happen ... Also if you have any ideas for other mobs that should spawn from pop rocks please let me know. I've got the rock spore and rock leech.
[/quote]


This will be not terribly helpful but I really like what I have seen so far. One minor point is I am still seeing 40 to 20 + debris etc. in hulks.

------------- Edit -----------------
Oh and thank you again, I was mining a bit this morning and it almost felt like live. One of the best compliments I can give you me thinks. :)

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that is very helpful - it's good to know we've moving things in the right direction.

:)

oh ... what about the BOOM strength of the pop when there's no buff or jackaroid? I've heard it might be a bit weak ... also I think there needs to be some sort of ship effect when you get debuffed because it just doesn't quite feel right. I seem to remember there was one in live.

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Yeah same here, small graphic that played over the hull, generally negative sound effect. Can't remember exactly what it looked or sounded like though, may have been several effects.

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