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Mimir

New Pop Rock whine

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[font="Calibri"][size="3"]I have been a very verbal opponent to the pop rocks since they have been introduced. In speaking to other miners they almost all think they are great. In fact I was accused today of wanting things handed to me for not liking the pop rocks??? As I see it the pop rocks are making the acquiring of high level ores in HUGE quantities way too easy, and handing those that pull them (myself included) massive amounts of ores way to easy. The pop rocks have a minimal risk for a huge reward. [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]So here is what I propose for the pop rocks; [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Add the possibility of complete death for pulling one. (Currently a level 9 will take from 25 – 50 % of my shield)[/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"] Take them out of the equation for field clear bonuses[/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"]Cut down on the number of them (I have a screen shot of 5 crystals 4 of which are poppers).[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

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I've already answered many of those concerns in one other thread, I'll go back and try to find it, if I do i'll link ya. The pop rock is still being worked on just fell off the priority wagon temporarily and got shuffled.

The high percentage is simply due to the way the fields were set/created before the full system worked, many of the fields are set at unusually high percentages thinking that that would be more of a weighted way of making the rocks appear as opposed to a guaranteed 1:1% rate.

With that said, keep your eyes on it and keep fighting the good fight, it hasn't gone unnoticed, we're just hell bent on a few final tasks before we transition to the new phase at present.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1314914543' post='45529']
I've already answered many of those concerns in one other thread, I'll go back and try to find it, if I do i'll link ya. The pop rock is still being worked on just fell off the priority wagon temporarily and got shuffled.

The high percentage is simply due to the way the fields were set/created before the full system worked, many of the fields are set at unusually high percentages thinking that that would be more of a weighted way of making the rocks appear as opposed to a guaranteed 1:1% rate.

[b]With that said, keep your eyes on it and keep fighting the good fight, it hasn't gone unnoticed, we're just hell bent on a few final tasks before we transition to the new phase at present.[/b]
[/quote]

So is this saying that Alpha is really close? Looking forward to it, particularily to see what the JT and Scout will get to bring them up to speed, and what missing skill the Privateer will get.

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Well you must have a bad-ass shield to only take 25% from them. I've always taken at least 75%, and occasionally more than 100% shield damage from pop rocks regardless of my shield capacity.

As it is though, pop rocks are the only viable source for lvl9 ores in any reasonable quantity. Without them certain ores (I'm looking at you Aesirium) would be virtually impossible to find.

So yeah, I do like pop rocks, they make mining a little more interactive, how much can you pull before it goes boom? Also they provide a TS with it's niche. With Hull patch, TS's are the best miner for clearing pop-rock fields. It's the trade for how quick PS's can clear out our guards & JE's cloak/WH ability to get to the fields the fastest/easiest.

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The next phase is less than 3 task (in the MS Project file I keep for enbemu) from being here. Now to be fair though each of those tasks are a bit of a whopper, but they're all at least 50% done or more, so I could say probably before x-mas, but I don't want to guarantee that given that ya know, I can't make people work at every available opportunity, only some of us are that fanatic about it. :rolleyes:

Here's the thread.. I at least hinted at it, guess I didn't make it clear as I thought I did but its on the hotplate, just on a lower setting atm.
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/5447-yaprp/page__p__44577__hl__%2Bpop+%2Brock+%2Bkyp__fromsearch__1#entry44577"]https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/5447-yaprp/page__p__44577__hl__%2Bpop+%2Brock+%2Bkyp__fromsearch__1#entry44577[/url]

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1314917639' post='45539']
The next phase is less than 3 task (in the MS Project file I keep for enbemu) from being here. Now to be fair though each of those tasks are a bit of a whopper, but they're all at least 50% done or more, so I could say probably before x-mas, but I don't want to guarantee that given that ya know, I can't make people work at every available opportunity, only some of us are that fanatic about it. :rolleyes:

Here's the thread.. I at least hinted at it, guess I didn't make it clear as I thought I did but its on the hotplate, just on a lower setting atm.
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/5447-yaprp/page__p__44577__hl__%2Bpop+%2Brock+%2Bkyp__fromsearch__1#entry44577"]https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/5447-yaprp/page__p__44577__hl__%2Bpop+%2Brock+%2Bkyp__fromsearch__1#entry44577[/url]
[/quote]

Fair enough, that's nice to know. Thank you for responding.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1314917865' post='45540']
Fair enough, that's nice to know. Thank you for responding.
[/quote]

Hey!!! that's my line :rolleyes:

but /agree thank you.

And I agree level 9 ores need to be tweaked (ALOT) but pulling them at these quantities is insane. One pop rock and 25 Grail Waters? A bit overkill even for the most ardent of the "I can't find them anyplace else" miners.

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yeah the pop rocks do need changing. As with a lot of stuff, they STILL have the values I pulled out of my butt when I got them working, just so we could have something happening.

So let's have some ideas ...

How about pop rocks up to level 4 will only cause shield damage, and their intensity is capped according to level.

From 5-7, they can actually cause hull damage.

From 8-9, they can be lethal.

Any advances on the above. Really the values I did were only there to get people to post how it actually should work, they've just been like that for a long time!

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1314927287' post='45557']
yeah the pop rocks do need changing. As with a lot of stuff, they STILL have the values I pulled out of my butt when I got them working, just so we could have something happening.

So let's have some ideas ...

How about pop rocks up to level 4 will only cause shield damage, and their intensity is capped according to level.

From 5-7, they can actually cause hull damage.

From 8-9, they can be lethal.

Any advances on the above. Really the values I did were only there to get people to post how it actually should work, they've just been like that for a long time!
[/quote]

Bad^bad idea!!! Everything I read in chat is people saying they cause too much damage, and now you want to give them the chance to be lethal! People are already saying pop rocks leave them so vulnerable to MoB's that they just ignore them, noone will risk being incapped (which then, unlike now, would carry the chance of item quality damage, to mine them. (At Which point you might a well remove them from the game and just reduce the number of 'roids in the field by a corospnding amount)

If you want to make it more dangerous, put more guardian MoB's around them so you have to kill them before piping the 'roids or risk being engaged with no shields left. That is a fun risk, because you can make a choice, a random "if I harvest this I may insta-die is NOT a fun risk!

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Gotta agree with Yargnit's point there the [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/4725-pop-rocks/"]Pop-Rocks Holy <expletive> thread[/url] pretty much lays that out.

I'd rather see what I described in that thread, where pop rocks have random effects, both positive or negative, or the possiblity of spawning a mob. Mobs spawned, IMO, should have interesting level apropriate loot tables.

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[quote name='Yargnit' timestamp='1314931032' post='45558']
Bad^bad idea!!! Everything I read in chat is people saying they cause too much damage, and now you want to give them the chance to be lethal! People are already saying pop rocks leave them so vulnerable to MoB's that they just ignore them, noone will risk being incapped (which then, unlike now, would carry the chance of item quality damage, to mine them. (At Which point you might a well remove them from the game and just reduce the number of 'roids in the field by a corospnding amount)

If you want to make it more dangerous, put more guardian MoB's around them so you have to kill them before piping the 'roids or risk being engaged with no shields left. That is a fun risk, because you can make a choice, a random "if I harvest this I may insta-die is NOT a fun risk!
[/quote]

I think that for a greater reward there should be a greater risk. What I hear is "All I do is mine pop rocks" "that is all I pull from a field" "this is the only way I can get x or y ore in huge qty" I think the key is the huge qty. If there is 25 Grail Water in one rock shouldn’t there be a chance that you may not live going for it? When the pop rocks go into "live" cool we can have a diversity but until then for the love of everything EMU, make pulling them a gamble not just a quick way to fill your ship with high level ores. If they stay as they are I would rather see Merlin's planet roids back. At least it took some time to mine them.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1314934194' post='45560']
What I hear is "All I do is mine pop rocks" "that is all I pull from a field" "this is the only way I can get x or y ore in huge qty"
[/quote]

that's all well and good for now, but aren't pop rocks eventually going to be like Live's ones, where they looked exactly like the rest of the surrounding roids. Those that ONLY mine pop rocks will be kinda lost if/when that happens, right?

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In live they didn't look exactly like normal rocks, they were the wrong color for their type & level. Now hulks on the other hand weren't obvious.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1314934194' post='45560']
I think that for a greater reward there should be a greater risk. What I hear is "All I do is mine pop rocks" "that is all I pull from a field" "this is the only way I can get x or y ore in huge qty" I think the key is the huge qty. If there is 25 Grail Water in one rock shouldn’t there be a chance that you may not live going for it? When the pop rocks go into "live" cool we can have a diversity but until then for the love of everything EMU, make pulling them a gamble not just a quick way to fill your ship with high level ores. If they stay as they are I would rather see Merlin's planet roids back. At least it took some time to mine them.
[/quote]

Yes, like 10% of miners are slightly crazy (like me) and love pop rocks, most hate them already, and would despise them if they were lethal. Just fix it so we can find lvl9 ores more commonly outside of pop rocks and it will solve everything. I like pop rocks because they are the ONLY way to get certain lvl9 ores. Solve that and they just become a more efficient way for people who like to live on the edge. (Rememeber, if you don't clear the ore guards, they can kill you if you blow chunks out of yourself mining pop rocks, even if the rocks themselves don't)

Now mayabe they stacks of 20+ lvl9's in 1 rock could use a tweak, but you can do that without making them lethal, just lower the stacks to no larger than 10-12, while simultaneously fixing lvl9 ore in normal rocks. That makes it a viable option to do either depending on your class/preference.

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[quote name='Yargnit' timestamp='1314948564' post='45563']
Yes, like 10% of miners are slightly crazy (like me) and love pop rocks, most hate them already, and would despise them if they were lethal. Just fix it so we can find lvl9 ores more commonly outside of pop rocks and it will solve everything. I like pop rocks because they are the ONLY way to get certain lvl9 ores. Solve that and they just become a more efficient way for people who like to live on the edge. (Rememeber, if you don't clear the ore guards, they can kill you if you blow chunks out of yourself mining pop rocks, even if the rocks themselves don't)

Now mayabe they stacks of 20+ lvl9's in 1 rock could use a tweak, but you can do that without making them lethal, just lower the stacks to no larger than 10-12, while simultaneously fixing lvl9 ore in normal rocks. That makes it a viable option to do either depending on your class/preference.
[/quote]

I don't think it's crazy that the pop roids have large stacks. You don't get every stack after all, so I'm not sure you get that much more ore out of the same amount of pop roids as you do from ordinary roids. You just get more at once.

As for the damage. They should do a significant amount of damage, but I don't think they should go into hull if your shield is fully charged. What could work is delivering large amounts of EMP damage after the initial blast so they'll empty both your shield and your reactor but leave your hull intact. I could even see them uninstalling engines, reactors or shields at random, to make the effect stick a bit longer...

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[quote name='Yargnit' timestamp='1314948564' post='45563']
Yes, like 10% of miners are slightly crazy (like me) and love pop rocks, most hate them already, and would despise them if they were lethal. Just fix it so we can find lvl9 ores more commonly outside of pop rocks and it will solve everything. I like pop rocks because they are the ONLY way to get certain lvl9 ores. Solve that and they just become a more efficient way for people who like to live on the edge. (Rememeber, if you don't clear the ore guards, they can kill you if you blow chunks out of yourself mining pop rocks, even if the rocks themselves don't)

Now mayabe they stacks of 20+ lvl9's in 1 rock could use a tweak, but you can do that without making them lethal, just lower the stacks to no larger than 10-12, while simultaneously fixing lvl9 ore in normal rocks. That makes it a viable option to do either depending on your class/preference.
[/quote]


[color="#ff0000"]Just fix it so we can find lvl9 ores more commonly outside of pop rocks and it will solve everything. I like pop rocks because they are the ONLY way to get certain lvl9 ores. [/color]

This is NOT a true statement, before the pop rocks came along it was possible to mine level 9 ores, you just (as in live) find them. Pre pop rocks it took me a couple of days to pull a partial stack of grail water like 40 or so. With pop rocks I won’t even consider passing them along without a stack of 140. I get these in the same couple of days now.



[color="#ff0000"]Solve that and they just become a more efficient way for people who like to live on the edge. (Rememeber, if you don't clear the ore guards, they can kill you if you blow chunks out of yourself mining pop rocks, even if the rocks themselves don't)[/color]

How does the possibility of getting dead pulling out of a pop rock take away the “living on the edge” feeling? To me that [b][i]IS[/i][/b] living on the edge not the I get my ores and my shield is down 20 – 80% Oh boo hoo I now need to wait while my shield recharges.

[color="#ff0000"]Now mayabe they stacks of 20+ lvl9's in 1 rock could use a tweak, but you can do that without making them lethal, just lower the stacks to no larger than 10-12, while simultaneously fixing lvl9 ore in normal rocks. That makes it a viable option to do either depending on your class/preference.
[/color]

Maybe 20+ lvl 9 ores is too much?
----------------


Pop rocks in live were few and far between, I don’t think the Westwood devs put them in to flood the market with high level ores, and I don’t think the current devs should do that either.
High level ores were available pre pop rocks, granted it took a while to mine what you needed, but now it is a semi-instant full stack for level 9 ores.

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Well, on live Pop Rocks couldn't be mined at all, so the large stacks were meant to be (if you'll pardon the expression) schmuck bait. Here, I see the Pop Rocks as not as much an unequal reward for low risk as balancing out the low number of ores in higher level asteroids.

Personally, I feel that if you balance out the number of ores, so you can pretty much find the same stack sizes at all levels, then the Pop Rocks can have nothing special in terms of stack size. It's just a matter of risking mining them. But since the Pop Rocks are the only thing keeping the low level miners from cherry picking all the best ores from high level fields, it's a delicate balancing act. If the Pop Rocks are intended to be a risk that low level miners face when trying to mine high level ores, maybe they should all pop, or have a chance to just "pop" without exploding.

What are the rules for mining Pop Rocks anyway? I don't think it's a set chance when you open the asteroid, it's obviously possible to mine a few ores before it pops. Is it a chance of explosion per Prospect? Per ore extracted? Based on level or Prospect skill?

I'm sure this could be found somewhere, but since it's been brought up...

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Sure - there are a few drawbacks with pop-roids but I love them. They certainly make you think about mining carefully, plus the whole risk-reward thing. They also stop bot-mining and because of that I'd put a plea for them to be put into gas fields as well. If you dont like mining pop-roids - well - just leave them for those that do.

If they could also spawn mobs it would also generate a bit of excitement too!

I still think its a bit wiggy for for L4 ore JE to be dented by just 50% but my L9 max shield with extra shield extension gets 95% shield damage. Surely this should be cap, equipment and skill based?

Its also interesting to see what roids respawn if you pop a roid. Some interesting results!!

Just an observation - you dont seem to get field-clear bonuses if there are pop-roids? Is the answer as simple as doing one ordinary field spawn, and do a second spawn on top with a small number of pop-roids?

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I think there should be pop roids, but I'm thinking the level of damage done by them right now is way too high.

I do think that more lucrative orefeids should be more dangerous, harder to find, or both. Danger should primarily come in the form of apropraite orefeild guardians to the value of the orefield, but I do think that there's a place for pop-rocks in there. I don't think that a pop-rock should be able to kill you by just blowing up, but I do think that the mobs that come out of them should be a threat. (say for most orefields they would be the miner's CL, and for L8-L9 miner's CL+ 1-3) Now draining a portion of your shields, up to around 20% of so, seems reasonable, in that while your shields are recharging you're more vulnerable than you would otherwise be to the orefield guardians. Would also be interesting if there were a few orefield guardians could use the cloak skill. All Explorers get Scan, but don't get it right away, so say starting around L5 fields, the possibility of guardians that can cloak would make it interesting.

Such mobs should be something new. Like most non-boss mobs most of what they drop should be junk but occasionally they should drop something interesting, apropriate to their level.

Random buffs/debuffs as a potential consequence also works, (what I have in mind is described in the Pop-Rocks holy .... thread). Some things positive, some negative, so there is some incentive to pop the roids, other than large amounts of ore. Make sure pop-mobs have interesting loot tables, for their less frequent drops.

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[quote name='Amethyst' timestamp='1315000947' post='45596']
If they could also spawn mobs it would also generate a bit of excitement too![/quote]

They spawned MOBs back in live, but that was removed because too many players were one shot killed by them. Even Sentinels had troubles with them, simply because there was no warning and the MOB spawned right on top of them. While it was mainly low level players trying to mine above their levels that complained, there were problems even with even level miners.

That being said, I believe that the ability to spawn MOBs could be restored, if a timer could be placed on the MOB to delay it becoming aggroed for a second or two. That would give the miner a chance to recognize the threat and respond to it, instead of just suddenly being killed by a MOB in his face.

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[quote name='Amethyst' timestamp='1315000947' post='45596']
Sure - there are a few drawbacks with pop-roids but I love them. They certainly make you think about mining carefully, plus the whole risk-reward thing [. ..]
[/quote]
[font="Calibri"][size="3"]How does the damage they currently do make anyone think twice about pulling one? If you wait until you are at full shield there is no danger at all.[/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1315001985' post='45598'][/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]I think there should be pop roids, but I'm thinking the level of damage done by them right now is way too high. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][…][/size][/font]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"][/quote][/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Again you both speak of enjoying the risk, but you both said that the damage was too high, so if it is lowered the risk goes even lower for the gain you get. Where is the risk then?[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Pop Rocks are a pita and nothing more imo. If there was a chance even a remote one of getting blasted to death when pulling one, then that is a risk that matches the rewards that are currently in them. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

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The risk with Pop rocks is pop rock mobs, as well as orefeild guardians. Those should be a challenge, but they should be mobs that can be taken on and with the right equipment/tactics, beaten by an explorer of a level apropriate to the field he's mining.

IMO the rewards shouldn't be absurd amounts of ores, but the possiblity that a pop rock mob might drop something interesting for killing him. Also the possiblity of a buff as described in the thread I mentioned in the previous post.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1315003343' post='45601']
The risk with Pop rocks is pop rock mobs, as well as orefeild guardians. Those should be a challenge, but they should be mobs that can be taken on and with the right equipment/tactics, beaten by an explorer of a level apropriate to the field he's mining.

IMO the rewards shouldn't be absurd amounts of ores, but the possiblity that a pop rock mob might drop something interesting for killing him. Also the possiblity of a buff as described in the thread I mentioned in the previous post.
[/quote]

I agree with you 100%! but...I was asking for something to be done to the CURRENT ore treasure chests... err pop rocks. That are beloved by those that do not want to have any real risk of guardian mobs or take the time to find the high level fields. I love them too, as I can get a full stack of grail water in a matter of hours. And I don't think that was the intent.

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I would figure if we do it with the explosions, then it could be because the rock is unstable, and we have a system that degrades the rock over time from when it spawns, but perhaps there is more ore the longer you wait?

There are possibilities, I did not know spawned mobs were removed in live, that's what I remembered until I stopped playing. :D

I used to defend my guild whilst they mined, if something popped, I shot it before it shot them most times. Nothing should pop out of a rock capable of one-shotting you though, unless that rock has the motherlode inside.

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Seems like poprock-spawned mobs might be a good way to implement Tienbau's suggestion, at least as far as lev 8/9 roids.
If a lev 8/9 poprock spawned, say, a lev 55 mob, there would be a good chance that the miner is gonna die if he's too low-lev but also a slight chance to get away. This would provide that "living on the edge" feeling without the certainty of death/ item quality damage that comes from a lethal explosion.


Also, and yes this is nit-picky, but ever since Kyp mentioned the "next phase" a few folks have asked "so we're almost to Alpha?" Alpha does not come after Beta, Alpha was ST1 and 2. The next phase is traditionally called "Gold", defined (by some) as "80-90% ready to play, with only minor technical/database issues remaining. Generally the last step before a finished release product."

I'm sure Kyp knows a lot more about stages of game development than I do so if i have stated this incorrectly, please feel free to correct me.

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