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Mimir

New Pop Rock whine

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316131552' post='46159']
Yeah same here, small graphic that played over the hull, generally negative sound effect. Can't remember exactly what it looked or sounded like though, may have been several effects.
[/quote]

This plus a icon in the buffs area of your screen. For those things that are positive, then comparable graphics, and sound effects. Thank you devs for working on pop-rocks.

If you can make a few mobs that haven't been seen before, for future updates, that would be nice. Looking forward to killing a few and seeing what they drop. Some should have some resistances to some types of damage, but shouldn't be immune to anything. (otherwise you might have to take one type of weapon for dealing with ore guardians, due to the guardians resistances/immunities, and then have a pop-rock mob that's immune to the damage that you need to kill the orefield guardians.)

Tien, I like the little effect from pristine orefields, that looks nice, saw it earlier today. Thank you for adding it.

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Firstly yep I think one of the mobs that spawns (the ugly looking one) is resistant to impact, although maybe we can have varying resistances for each type of mob that spawns.

The debuff icon is working - you should see it. I've just added a little effect that plays when you get the buff/debuff too, which should be coming to the server soon.

The other point about the pristine orefields - the clear bonus increases gradually as time passes; this is for a reward for explorers, who want to seek out new orefields out of the way that don't get much attention.

I will be changing the 'glow' style for the various bonus steps, until when you spot the very highest level you know it's going to be worth your time to clear the field. Of course it's never going to be enough to unbalance the game, but if you only have an hour or so to play here and there you'll be able to gain some good XP.

I guess also we should have guardians auto-spawn with the highest level of bonus too, kinda like giant spiders here in Aus move in on an area that doesn't see much human traffic.

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1315360271' post='45816']
[*]reduce ore count in pop rocks to < 20.
[/quote]
bah.. why do people insist on this one? Mining any significant quantity of a single ore already takes long enough.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1316178839' post='46170']
bah.. why do people insist on this one? Mining any significant quantity of a single ore already takes long enough.
[/quote]


Isn’t that the point of mining (explore)? If every asteroid had the qty you were looking for you wouldn’t have to leave that sector. Boring as hell imo.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1316178839' post='46170']
bah.. why do people insist on this one? Mining any significant quantity of a single ore already takes long enough.
[/quote]

See Mimir's reply, summarizes nicely. :)

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1316208767' post='46182']
See Mimir's reply, summarizes nicely. :(
[/quote]

If a particular ore is prevalent in a field, and you can mine 20 units in a couple of minutes, I don't see a problem with having to mine several asteroids to collect it all. The high numbers in pop rocks on live weren't intended to be mined, because they couldn't be. Pop rocks exploded 100% of the time. You never got those ores.

If you can't get those 20 units in a couple of minutes, then I feel that's a different discussion. :(

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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1316458568' post='46332']
If a particular ore is prevalent in a field, and you can mine 20 units in a couple of minutes, I don't see a problem with having to mine several asteroids to collect it all. The high numbers in pop rocks on live weren't intended to be mined, because they couldn't be. Pop rocks exploded 100% of the time. You never got those ores.

If you can't get those 20 units in a couple of minutes, then I feel that's a different discussion. :(
[/quote]


[size="3"][font="Calibri"]I’m a bit confused, I don’t remember being able to get 20 of any one particular ore in 20 minutes in live. Unless you are referring to the starter areas, and there were entire fields of only one ore type. Copper and iron ore come to mind. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font][size="3"][font="Calibri"]After leaving the starter zone and looking for the wanted ores needed for the guild builders, it was a longer time than 20 minutes collecting those ores. [/font][/size]

[font="Calibri"][size="3"] [/size][/font]I could be full of it though as I have slept since then.

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There was lots of iron in the JE starter area as it was required in one of the very first missions a JE did to learn his profession. Found it also was useful for getting the iron & copper required for some of rhe sub-comps needed to make a Sturdy Solar Panel. (though getting comps and having a tradesman rip them was more efficent, given the number of ores required)

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Big thumbs up from me. Big improvements. I think the boom could be a little bigger, and the amount of debris could be reduced to 5-10? Overall though WELL DONE KYP!

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1316460956' post='46337']
[size="3"][font="Calibri"]I’m a bit confused, I don’t remember being able to get 20 of any one particular ore in 20 minutes in live. Unless you are referring to the starter areas, and there were entire fields of only one ore type. Copper and iron ore come to mind. [/font][/size]
[/quote]

Well, my point was that if that amount is readily available, then you don't need it in the pop rocks. If you DO need it, well, the ore from those pop rocks wasn't available on live.

If the problem is a shortage of ores, then the DEVS NEED TO FIX THAT, not provide pop rocks that are easier to mine.

If the quantity you need is NOT available, in ANY sector, then what is the purpose of exploring? Edited by Dragoncove

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1316184445' post='46173']
Isn’t that the point of mining (explore)? If every asteroid had the qty you were looking for you wouldn’t have to leave that sector. Boring as hell imo.
[/quote]

Yay for going all the way to other extreme?

I would simply like to be able to mine more than 1-8 units of ANY GIVEN ORE from a single orefield. If I'm only looking for one specific ore that day, because I have a need for it or another player that wants to buy that one only, I would like to be able to actually collect a stack of it inside the span of 4-ish hours. AFAIK, you can currently only do that with certain L1-L2 ores.

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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1316465238' post='46341']
Well, my point was that if that amount is readily available, then you don't need it in the pop rocks. If you DO need it, well, the ore from those pop rocks wasn't available on live.

If the problem is a shortage of ores, then the DEVS NEED TO FIX THAT, not provide pop rocks that are easier to mine.

If the quantity you need is NOT available, in ANY sector, then what is the purpose of exploring?
[/quote]


I was pulling Grail Water (smaller qtys) and other hard to find ores before the introduction of pop rocks. If you don't believe me ask Vaden and to a lesser extent the Magoos.

So what ore are you saying exist nowhere but in the pop rocks?

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1316470080' post='46343']
Yay for going all the way to other extreme?

I would simply like to be able to mine more than 1-8 units of ANY GIVEN ORE from a single orefield. If I'm only looking for one specific ore that day, because I have a need for it or another player that wants to buy that one only, I would like to be able to actually collect a stack of it inside the span of 4-ish hours. AFAIK, you can currently only do that with certain L1-L2 ores.
[/quote]


Again, this is asking for an "Easy Button" IMO. How about we just have the GMs fill our hulls with ore we ask for? That way we could be just like the botters. We wouldn’t have to play at all.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1316470084' post='46344']
I was pulling Grail Water (smaller qtys) and other hard to find ores before the introduction of pop rocks. If you don't believe me ask Vaden and to a lesser extent the Magoos.

So what ore are you saying exist nowhere but in the pop rocks?
[/quote]

How long do you believe it should take to mine a stack of 20 ores? 20 minutes? 20 hours? 20 days?

To me, when you said that the point of mining was to explore, I took that to mean that you should look around for a field that held the resource that you were looking for. If you want to make the resource so rare that it can only be found once every 10 or 20 minutes in ANY field, then how long it takes to find the field really does not enter into it.

If anything, taking 10 to 20 minutes to establish that a resource is NOT in a field will slow down the process even more.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1316470293' post='46345']
Again, this is asking for an "Easy Button" IMO. How about we just have the GMs fill our hulls with ore we ask for? That way we could be just like the botters. We wouldn’t have to play at all.
[/quote]

And again, how does this in any way encourage you to "explore" and leave the field? If you're not going to find more than 1-8 units of the ore that you are looking for, and won't find more than 1-8 units of the ore that you are looking for in any OTHER field, what difference does it make where you look?

Pop Rocks, at the very least, were random, and provided random ores. While it might take half a minute to a minute to locate a particular ore in a field, assuming it is present, locating a stack of that specific ore in a Pop Rock might take 10 or 20 minutes. Finding a stack of 20 or it might take even longer. It might be a once in a lifetime random event, or at least once in a week. Even if you assume that you can find AN ore, of ONE unit, in an asteroid every two minutes, it will still take you only 40 minutes to mine 20. That seems to be far less than the rate you seem to be advocating.

I'll also point out that as a very rough estimate I would guess that for ammo ores, if you CAN'T provide at least one for every minute (or at least, every minute a warrior is fighting) you likely will not be able to supply that ammo quickly enough. A minute is a very long time in combat, and a lot of ammo can be used in that time. Edited by Dragoncove

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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1316471245' post='46349']
And again, how does this in any way encourage you to "explore" and leave the field? If you're not going to find more than 1-8 units of the ore that you are looking for, and won't find more than 1-8 units of the ore that you are looking for in any OTHER field, what difference does it make where you look?

Pop Rocks, at the very least, were random, and provided random ores. While it might take half a minute to a minute to locate a particular ore in a field, assuming it is present, locating a stack of that specific ore in a Pop Rock might take 10 or 20 minutes. Finding a stack of 20 or it might take even longer. It might be a once in a lifetime random event, or at least once in a week. Even if you assume that you can find AN ore, of ONE unit, in an asteroid every two minutes, it will still take you only 40 minutes to mine 20. That seems to be far less than the rate you seem to be advocating.
[/quote]


I would drop off 40 to 80 every few days. But I only play for an hour or so in the early mornings, sometimes I play a bit in the early evenings. So it works out to be 20 Grail Waters in 30 min. Not bad, and way more than I ever found in live. Remember this was pre pop rocks, with the pop rocks I gave at a minimum 80 to 120 in the same amount of time.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1316471760' post='46351']
I would drop off 40 to 80 every few days. But I only play for an hour or so in the early mornings, sometimes I play a bit in the early evenings. So it works out to be 20 Grail Waters in 30 min. Not bad, and way more than I ever found in live. Remember this was pre pop rocks, with the pop rocks I gave at a minimum 80 to 120 in the same amount of time.
[/quote]

So about 0.66 per minute. Are you satisfied with that rate, or do you believe it should be what it was on live?

One thing to consider is that this is just ONE component of (I am guessing) ammo, and thus you either found the other components to the ammo more readily, or just discarded them. (As the traders either ripped the ores or just bought to components) I'm also assuming that you knew where the productive ore fields were, and you are including your travel time to them, not to mention your time to drop off the ores and sell them.

While you were actually mining, I would estimate your rate to be higher, maybe 1.33 to 1.5 per minute, assuming you spent only half of your time in the act of mining. That's probably generous, I'm sure you took your miner out for combat more than just occasionally. You also were supplying your guild only during those 1-2 hours that you played per day. Obviously someone else was supplying Grail Water during the other 22 hours in a day.

The point is, while it may have taken you 15 minutes to build up a stack of 20, (and then another 15 minutes to sell it) you built up a stack of 20, and in a reasonable amount of time. You don't NEED to find stacks of 20 in pop rocks, unless the demand is just so high that the warriors are going through 180 ores per hour. If it is that high, that's what needs to be discussed. Not whether or not pop rocks should have stacks of 20 in them. Edited by Dragoncove

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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1316472540' post='46353']
So about 0.66 per minute. Are you satisfied with that rate, or do you believe it should be what it was on live?

One thing to consider is that this is just ONE component of (I am guessing) ammo, and thus you either found the other components to the ammo more readily, or just discarded them. (As the traders either ripped the ores or just bought to components) I'm also assuming that you knew where the productive ore fields were, and you are including your travel time to them, not to mention your time to drop off the ores and sell them.

While you were actually mining, I would estimate your rate to be higher, maybe 1.33 to 1.5 per minute, assuming you spent only half of your time in the act of mining. That's probably generous, I'm sure you took your miner out for combat more than just occasionally. You also were supplying your guild only during those 1-2 hours that you played per day. Obviously someone else was supplying Grail Water during the other 22 hours in a day.

The point is, while it may have taken you 15 minutes to build up a stack of 20, (and then another 15 minutes to sell it) you built up a stack of 20, and in a reasonable amount of time. You don't NEED to find stacks of 20 in pop rocks, unless the demand is just so high that the warriors are going through 180 ores per hour. If it is that high, that's what needs to be discussed. Not whether or not pop rocks should have stacks of 20 in them.
[/quote]


I was talking about the current game, but as in live and the EMU one WAS able to mine Grail Water (in qtys that seemed high). The current quantities are insane... 20 Grail Water on a single pull??? And as for the numbers 0.66 (not even going to pull out the calculator) there are so many fewer players on than there were in live, even at sunset, that the occurrences should be lower NOT higher than live.

I’m done with this.

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[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1316473857' post='46354']
I was talking about the current game, but as in live and the EMU one WAS able to mine Grail Water (in qtys that seemed high). [/quote]

I never said you couldn't mine Grail Water, my point was 1) whether that was sufficient to supply the demand and 2) whether the rarity of Grail Water encouraged you to look in other fields.

[quote]The current quantities are insane... 20 Grail Water on a single pull??? [/quote]

Is that STILL the case? It was my understanding the latest patch reduced the number of ores in a stack in pop rocks.

[quote]And as for the numbers 0.66 (not even going to pull out the calculator) there are so many fewer players on than there were in live, even at sunset, that the occurrences should be lower NOT higher than live.[/quote]

That shouldn't make any difference. Fewer players mean less consumption as well as less production. While there certainly will be variations due to this being a test (more players may be likely to try miners to test the functionality) as long as the ratios stay relatively equal that shouldn't effect anything.

The point is, YOU mine 20 ores every 30 minutes, by your own admission. It doesn't matter whether you do that for one hour or eight hours, your production over time is 20 per 30 minutes, or 0.66 per minute.

[quote]I’m done with this.
[/quote]

I'm honestly not sure what you are trying to say with this anyway, other than to be argumentative. First you say there is sufficient ore that we don't need pop rocks, and then you say that the supply should be severely limited. It seems to me that we are in agreement on the principle, either you underestimated the amount that you can mine in a static amount of time like 30 minutes, or you didn't understand my original point. Edited by Dragoncove

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Seriously? Whining about the lack of ore? There is PLENTY of ore. I can't think there are any more than 20 miners out there at any one time and way more fields than can ever be mined. If you are mining to order then it may take a bit of time but if you are wise the most efficient way is to strip mine everything in sight and stockpile it. Isn't that what everyone does? Or are we talking part-time 'miner' alts that are just out to mine the odd bit of ammo ore when necessary?
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[quote name='Dragoncove' timestamp='1316477265' post='46356']
I never said you couldn't mine Grail Water, my point was 1) whether that was sufficient to supply the demand and 2) whether the rarity of Grail Water encouraged you to look in other fields.



Is that STILL the case? It was my understanding the latest patch reduced the number of ores in a stack in pop rocks.



That shouldn't make any difference. Fewer players mean less consumption as well as less production. While there certainly will be variations due to this being a test (more players may be likely to try miners to test the functionality) as long as the ratios stay relatively equal that shouldn't effect anything.

The point is, YOU mine 20 ores every 30 minutes, by your own admission. It doesn't matter whether you do that for one hour or eight hours, your production over time is 20 per 30 minutes, or 0.66 per minute.



I'm honestly not sure what you are trying to say with this anyway, other than to be argumentative. First you say there is sufficient ore that we don't need pop rocks, and then you say that the supply should be severely limited. It seems to me that we are in agreement on the principle, either you underestimated the amount that you can mine in a static amount of time like 30 minutes, or you didn't understand my original point.
[/quote]


You have been all over the place with this... Just what do you want? From what I see from your original post was that you wanted MORE of the ores in the pop rocks, you wanted to travel less distance to get those ores and you didn’t want to spend any more time getting what you needed/wanted in the way of ores than you absolutely had to do to get them.

My original point was that there were way too many pop rocks and the damage that they dealt for the reward you got was completely out of kilter.

Can you imagine a warrior complaining that the mobs are not only not dropping multiples of the loot but not dropping them in multiples of 20 to 30?

It is the same thing to me, why bother to kill 20 mobs when you can kill one to get the same amount of loot.

In fact that’s what I demand!!! Mobs that I need to kill only one of to get the same amount of loot AND XP that I would have gotten from killing 20.

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um ...

so we're happy with the way the pop rocks work now? Or did you want me to change anything else?

I think the boom should be a bit bigger, I got the formula a bit wrong for everything other than the level 9 poppers.

The next step with poprocks is to add more mobs, each with different resistances and get the booms bigger.

Someone said something about debris in the pop rocks? That shouldn't happen - could you point me to a field where you saw this happening?

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So far so good. Differing mobs with differing resistancs is cool. That works as long as an orefield guarded by energy immune mobs doesn't have a pop rock that's plasma immune. Resistant is okay, but not immune. Also IIRC the red spindles in live in Yokan and Dahin were energy resistant (but not immune).

After all the pop-rock mobs are implemented, and balanced, will they have some "interesting" additions to their loot tables? Their rare drops, of course, not their more common drops.

Later in development, will we see some orefield guardians that cannot be killed with particular damage types?

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yeah good idea. Resistances are good.

The spindles were energy resistant?? No wonder it took me so long to kill them with my beams!

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1316499399' post='46375']
um ...

so we're happy with the way the pop rocks work now? Or did you want me to change anything else?

I think the boom should be a bit bigger, I got the formula a bit wrong for everything other than the level 9 poppers.

The next step with poprocks is to add more mobs, each with different resistances and get the booms bigger.

Someone said something about debris in the pop rocks? That shouldn't happen - could you point me to a field where you saw this happening?
[/quote]



[font="Calibri"][size="3"]I like the new pop rock format, it’s cool the way as Forest’s momma always said, “Mama always said Pop rocks are like a box of chocolate, you never know what you’re gonna get” Anyway damage seems to not be happening for me at all. Sometimes there is a pop with nothing no mob, no buff, no dmg, but if that is as intended and I think that it should be, then this is working as intended.[/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Calibri"]Now if only they were taken out of the field clear bonus equation:) [/font]:)[font="Calibri"] I have tried pulling them first, last and at random and I still can’t seem to get a bonus when they are in the field.[/font][/size]

Oh… the fresh field sparkle is absolutely brilliant!

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