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Ryle

Pvp Idea Summary (Taken From "how To Make It Fun")

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As per Dakynos' final post in the 13 page PvP thread, that someone could make a topic to summarize the 13 pages of discussion into one mass document of ideas, I will attempt to compile everything mentioned here. https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6408-if-pvp-were-added-how-to-make-it-fun-for-all/

There were five major systems talked about.

1. Sector Based PvP in which anyone entering the sector (or sectors) would be flagged attackable by other players in the sector(s). Addressable issues to this would be:
- Number of sectors involved (from one all the way up to a whole PvP "system" with various locations and bases maybe even based on factional/race alliance and so forth. Perhaps something akin to Moto with the Terran vs. Progen thing only with all three races and another neutral sector for everyone to just mash up in)
- Level requirements for entry (100+, 135+, free for all?)
- Warnings to players gating into the system that they have X minutes to gate back out or risk being attacked (preventative measure for accidental entry/griefing)
- Safe zones within the sector (respawn/tow locations as well as a place to group up or go afk safely for a moment)
- Explorer/trader based content with items out of roids and possibly random mobs dropping gear specifically for PvP only combat (nothing that would give advantage/disadvantage outside of the PvP sector)
- Whether there would be missions based around PvP with token awards or other incentives to participate (job runs in the sector for double xp with the risk of getting killed and losing the bonus and the like)
- No quality loss or XP debt on player death by another player.

2. Arena Based PvP like in live where participants would line up to a queue and be gated at the appropriate time to a mini sector with two respawn/safe locations and the two teams (or single players) would just duke it out in a deathmatch.
- In live there were arenas for different level ranges, based on HU level iirc.
- Moderate XP rewards possibly to the winners, and half that to the losers.
- 30 minute replay timer to prevent exploiting the XP reward.
- No quality loss or XP debt on player death by another player.
- The capture the flag ball game "The object of the game was soccer: get orbs of varying value to the goal(s)/safe zone. The different maps had different goal zones and orb spawn points. If you killed someone carrying a orb, they dropped it and you could tractor it and drive it to the goal. The highest value orbs were mined from outlying areas of the map, so you needed a miner to mine it and most cases a guard(s) to protect them while they did and drove it in."

3. Guildwar Based PvP in which players would join PvP only guilds on their PvP toons (or have an option in guild controls to flag certain rank? of players overt and attackable. Then whoever was in another guild with their flag up, open world anywhere PvP.
- Five minute cycle time to "flag down/up" off overt status so the /pvpon /pvpoff couldnt be exploited to avoid dying fairly.
- Certain sectors would be deemed safe zones (newbie areas and all common commerce sectors like Glenn, Carp, Saturn, and a few others) to prevent lag or interference.
- Explorer/trader based content with items out of roids and possibly random mobs dropping gear specifically for PvP only combat (nothing that would give advantage/disadvantage outside of PvP)
- Possible PvP only manufacturable gear that has no benefit when used on mobs or NPCs.
- No quality loss or XP debt on player death by another player.

4. Open world PvP. Much like the above guild war except the player controls when they flag overt, without having to join a specific guild to do so. Only players that flag overt would be attackable, and could only attack while overt.
- Five minute cycle time to "flag down/up" off overt status so the /pvpon /pvpoff couldnt be exploited to avoid dying fairly.
- Certain sectors would be deemed safe zones (newbie areas and all common commerce sectors like Glenn, Carp, Saturn, and a few others) to prevent lag or interference.
- Explorer/trader based content with items out of roids and possibly random mobs dropping gear specifically for PvP only combat (nothing that would give advantage/disadvantage outside of the PvP sector)
- Possible PvP only manufacturable gear that has no benefit when used on mobs or NPCs.
- No quality loss or XP debt on player death by another player.

5. Job based PvP, like a bounty system.
- The hunter goes to the terminal, gets a "Hunt Job" where a PvP Delivery/Base defense is actively headed or occurring. (for exploitation sake and camping spots, these should be completely random locations around the galaxy)
- The hunted gets a PvP Delivery/Defense from a jobs terminal that gives double XP for completing the job safely. (available from any job terminal regardless of level to prevent camping the pickup location)
- At any location along the route if the hunted is attacked by the hunter, PvP ensues until one of them is dead.
- Base defenses would last 10 minutes minimum.
- If the hunted is successful in arriving at the dropoff location for a delivery without being caught, they enter a 30-60 second period of "uploading the data" where they must be decloaked/stopped. If they are attacked by the hunter, all movement and cloaking ability returns and combat will then ensue to the death. This provides at least one opportunity for a quick hunter to get a chance to attack outside of incidental gating contact.



In all forms of PvP profession skills and balance will have to be looked at. Some professions (PW and JD) will be excellent solo combatants, whereas JE and TS would be better at group based PvP in a support role. Under no circumstances would PvP balancing affect PvE balance, in other words a skill may work totally different on a player than it does on a mob, for the sake of fairness, etc. Skill interruption and countering would have to be looked at (see cloak, anti-menace, armor piercing rounds vs PW and TE, shield charging debuffs, and the like), the possibilities here are endless. For all we know the weak little JE could be a ruthless debuffing monster in PvP. The PW might be a kiters dream, and so on.

Ive condensed the other thread as best I could, if I missed anything let me know and I will add it as soon as possible. =D

Lets get this discussion going again. Edited by Ryle
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Thanks Ryle! I'll leave the other thread closed, and anyone wanting to continue the discussion can do so here.

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1, 2, 4, & 5, so long as they're voluntary are fine by me. On Job based PvP is it possible to add a fourth choice, so it's Combat, Trade, Explore, and PvP? If not is it possible to add separate terminals for that. I think that if PvP & PvE jobs are on the same lists, there will be people who accidently get one when they want the other. When it comes to smuggling, I think that should also have a PvE version, since that would be pretty good content either way.

PvE Smuggling jobs could fall under any of the 3 categories, since they'd tend to have all 3 elements depending on the specifics of the job.
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Yeah I agree Terrell on both points. Seperate terminals and PvE smuggling with NPC/Mobs trying to kill you en route or arrival at destination. I love the idea of blended missions, combat and trade for example.

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I am just curious, I don't do PvP, it's not my style. But why would you not get quality loss or XP debt from PvP? What would be the 'danger' of playing that or even the 'fun factor' in that if you know that even if you loose, it won't affect you adversely? I would think if you were going to take the chance of going toe to toe with another player it should affect you the same way it would affect you if you go toe to toe with something in the environment. If I take my JE into the fishbowl or into BBW, I know I run the risk of dying and loosing quality as well as gaining debt, shouldn't it be the same if I take the risk to go PvP?

Again, I'm just curious why all the statements about no losses no debts.

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[quote name='alurra' timestamp='1342042633' post='60339']
I am just curious, I don't do PvP, it's not my style. But why would you not get quality loss or XP debt from PvP? What would be the 'danger' of playing that or even the 'fun factor' in that if you know that even if you loose, it won't affect you adversely? I would think if you were going to take the chance of going toe to toe with another player it should affect you the same way it would affect you if you go toe to toe with something in the environment. If I take my JE into the fishbowl or into BBW, I know I run the risk of dying and loosing quality as well as gaining debt, shouldn't it be the same if I take the risk to go PvP?

Again, I'm just curious why all the statements about no losses no debts.
[/quote]

Replay value. You can and will die dozens of times in PvP in a very short amount of time. It would be like being a TT was in a live fishbowl, all the time. 2mil+ xp debt and you might as well never equip any of your good gear, ever.

Besides, there is no tangible reward to pvp, players dont drop uber loots and so forth. The only thing you win is seeing them blow up. If you add in insult to injury with no reward, no one would do it.

PvP for the sake of PvP, but dont wreck your stuff doing it. They made that mistake with EvE, if you die you lose it all, and we know all the negative reviews the replay value on that game gets. Edited by Ryle
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Just an idea i got from reading the old topic.

Sence some people are concerned about weapons / gear that you would get from pvp, is it possible to add a new type of damage and make the pvp-gear only affect that kind of damage?

For example, everybody starts with a lvl 1 pvpshield that has xxx pvp hitpoints. The only way to get thru this shield is to use a pvpweapon that use a weapon that provides the pvp damagetype. That weapon does zero dmg of the other damage types ( like plasma etc... ) That way, thoose weapons / gear gets totally useless in pve.

When you kill a player, you would get tokens and with thoose tokens you could buy upgrades for your ship for example a lvl 2 pvp shield with more pvp hitpoints.

Or maybe this is to hard to implent?


/ PvP :)
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[quote name='Zyntax' timestamp='1342550877' post='60553']
Just an idea i got from reading the old topic.

Sence some people are concerned about weapons / gear that you would get from pvp, is it possible to add a new type of damage and make the pvp-gear only affect that kind of damage?

For example, everybody starts with a lvl 1 pvpshield that has xxx pvp hitpoints. The only way to get thru this shield is to use a pvpweapon that use a weapon that provides the pvp damagetype. That weapon does zero dmg of the other damage types ( like plasma etc... ) That way, thoose weapons / gear gets totally useless in pve.

When you kill a player, you would get tokens and with thoose tokens you could buy upgrades for your ship for example a lvl 2 pvp shield with more pvp hitpoints.

Or maybe this is to hard to implent?


/ PvP :)
[/quote]

+1 some good ideas here

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anyone interested in some mild PvP - there is no 'ganking' or anything like that involved, and the likelyhood of anyone getting incapp'd is pretty remote - we are trialing a new concept 'opposed mining' in Varen's Girdle. One team mines, the other team tries to stop them with area effect weapons. The twist is that the area effect weapons aren't hugely accurate, have a certain travel time and take a while to start lining up hits. Also, the mining team have similar weaponry too, and may have escorts - it's all a case of balance - do you use the energy to mine or send a few warning shots across the bow?

We had total mayhem in there, there were explosions going off all over the shop!!

We did find it was too easy for the mining team to clear out the asteroids, but it was the only run through, before everyone had worked out how to use the weapons effectively.

Will be trialing the system again tomorrow, with a few tweaks and suggestions from the initial game.

So far rewards haven't been added, only a scoring list displayed at the end of the game. Not sure what rewards we could use. I guess a little XP for the winning team and a bit of a bonus for the overall winner. Maybe we could host tournaments and the winning team all get presented with some gear with neat effects, or new decals.

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I sort of figured the "discussion" on PvP was a smoke screen. It is a done deal. So now it is only how will it NOT effect those that are not into it. I still think non PvP related development will take a back seat to this, but that could be just me.
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Mimir with the way it was done last night, it wont have any effect on the game outside of the little area it was in. The uber cannons wont fire unless youre in a registered game group, and that was the only piece of the game the defenders got to keep.

They are worthless outside of that.

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It was pretty fun, I was in the mining group for the trials of it last night. Here's a screenie of the weapons involved. Each person got 2 of them.

[img]http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p73/Terrell_072/ScreenShot162-1.jpg[/img]

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Where do I sign the Waiver?
Sign me up.
Time ?

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1342632364' post='60604']
Where do I sign the Waiver?
Sign me up.
Time ?
[/quote]

Last night's test was in Varen's Girdle, near the mining marker. The mining marker is north of the gate to Aragoth Prime. Not sure what time the next test is going to be.

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Make it PVP and I will go back to eve...but that is just me. IMHO you can't work on PVP content and bring ENB back to its glory at the same time.

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It's essentially a new version of the arena game from live. Instead of the soccer type game that was in Live where you sent the balls into a goal, one group mines the other tries to stop them from mining. It's fully optional, and you have to register 2 groups, one mining group one defense group. PvE will still rule the game. Miners get to keep the ores mined same as any other ores.

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oh jeez, it's just a bit of fun. We're not bringing PvP to the game. Like Terrell said, there are very strict restrictions on the usage of the cannons, and the mining crystal is so far out of the way that you will never see it unless you want to go there.

So far there are no rewards either, and when there are rewards they will probably tend to be more on the visual side rather than anything else (other than a bit of XP, the same as what you could get doing anything else) ... Drop by at the next test and see what the go is to make an informed desicion.

cheers,

TB

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EnB has a wicked setting and awesome lore just screaming for proper PVP.

I was a Beta tester for EnB and I remember how PVP was talked about for the game by some devs. Somehow it ended up as some lame-ass arena based sport. Is one of the reasons I quit EnB to go play Shadowbane and SWG.

In Beta, some of us figured that the Red Dragons were going to be the PVP faction and ingame badguys that players could aspire to be. Missed opportunity imo.

All the whining and crying about PVP in that last thread is the reason I stopped playing here and the biggest reason I haven't donated yet.

I lurk around these forums often, hoping for PVP to be properly discussed.

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1341938003' post='60292']
1. Sector Based PvP in which anyone entering the sector (or sectors) would be flagged attackable by other players in the sector(s).

2. Arena Based PvP like in live where participants would line up to a queue and be gated at the appropriate time to a mini sector with two respawn/safe locations and the two teams (or single players) would just duke it out in a deathmatch.

3. Guildwar Based PvP in which players would join PvP only guilds on their PvP toons (or have an option in guild controls to flag certain rank? of players overt and attackable. Then whoever was in another guild with their flag up, open world anywhere PvP.

4. Open world PvP. Much like the above guild war except the player controls when they flag overt, without having to join a specific guild to do so. Only players that flag overt would be attackable, and could only attack while overt.


5. Job based PvP, like a bounty system.[/quote]

As a longtime online role-playing serial killer here's my take:

1. Sounds good but too limiting. Waste of all that beautiful space in the rest of the game.

2. No. Arena pvp is battlegrounds by any other name and is what kills PVP in gaming today. Instanced crap is crap and it still smells no matter how you smear it on the walls. I actually quit a few MMOs recently because of instancing and treating combat like some sport.

3.Yes, PVP Guilds make sense. Is what I had in mind for the Progen Peace Corps...

4. SWG did this and did it well. TEF system worked and would be nice to see it here.

5. As a former pre-cu SWG Bounty Hunter, hitting marks is always a good thing. Maybe make it so people fail certain missions they get put on a Bounty Hunter mission terminal? Am sure there could be proper triggers so people do not get griefed by player set bounties.

Adding in novelty-play is one thing but would rather see a more serious focus when it comes to PVP over-all. No sports, no war is football crap.

No PVP only gear, either. Takes up vault space and all gear should be useful in any situation whether you kill a bot or a player imo.

What if we had a focus group/ PVP council that could work out the kinks and make things not only more fun but more interesting for all? That way, devs and other project members are not kept from their concentrating on the project at hand.
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+1 Dora
Make it easy for everyone, Copy and paste (I know its not that easy) a Mirror Image of Beta Hydri, Agaroth or Orion ^_^ minus the NPC (for now?) add the asteroids (?) and all the venders and items only (for now).
IMO Characters are born in the Mirrored PvP zone (Like Some kind of Alternate Universe) and can never leave. PvP guilds are formed within.

Let the PvP peeps have fun, no time is taken or very very little time is taken from the PvE.
[color=#00ff00]"What if we had a focus group/ PVP council" [/color]I'd like to do it.

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The biggest problem with PVP in Live was gear level. You could really only face off against players near your gear level or it just wasn't any fun. I love the mining/pvp specific weapons that the devs have come up with. This removes the whole gear problem, that most MMO's run into that separates PVP and PVE players into separate competing groups. It would be cool if playing in PVP 'matches' would open up new match areas/play types. Then the reward is more content vs more powerful gear (which leads back to the gear disparity problem).

note: Guild Wars 2 does PVP, at lest in my opinion, almost perfectly. Regardless of your level when you enter PVP you become max level with access to max level gear and all skills. It is up to the player what skills and gear they choose. So the PVP battle is really between players learning how to effectively beat other players. The only advantage one player has over another is their knowledge of how to play their class and use their skills most effectively. It also gives lower level players an opportunity to look at and play with skills that they may not see for a while in PVE.

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Just lost 90% of my post due to htting wrong button... Here's all that survived:

Pre-CU SWG had no levels and PVP was some of the best i ever did in any MMO still, to this very day. You specced your toon, geared up as best as you could and you dove into the deep end of fun... not dipping your toe in the kiddie pool and calling it a day. You won, it was great. You lost, you learned from it and came back with more perspective.

The lore and setting of SW made it easy to promote conflict and encouraged particpating in the Galactic Civil War. It was pretty much expected of a Rebel to want to go kill an Imperial, just because. When padawans and other [i]jetti[/i] wiould play with their lightsabers, a Bounty Hunter was looking for their nakmes to show up on a mission terminal. No one bitched about getting ganked by a higher level toon with better gear.

Now to start fresh...

Live didn't have PVP imo. That space soccer game didn't count as PVP in my books. While people with low expectations were content to george jetson it around doing failball, I was killing people, taking their stuff and burning their towns down in Shadowbane. Whacking padawans and making them cry real tears. All while role-playing and adhering to lore. I was an Irekei Thief in SB (we spoke Orc used by Shadowclan in Ultima Online) and a Mandalorian BH in SWG.

Open World PVP was where the fun was at... until instancing got popular through WOW Battlegrounds. BGs killed Open World PVP and changed the feel of the game. No conflict, no danger, no risk... boring.

A Quest For Balance makes for boring MMO PVP. I just came here from Star Trek Online. Was a OP Klingon there. ;) Qapla'! So much cry for nerfs after we hand a few Starfleet cannon fodder their asses all night. They lose a few battales back to back then hit the forums to bitch and moan for changes. Sadly, nerfs happened and they got new gear to off-set ours. They cried for Carriers because ours were OP... the first night they got them, we slayed them in the Queues. Gear doesn't always make up for skill.

Guess what i am trying to re-say, after losing my earlier long and time eating post, is we deserve better than some meaningless deathmatch grind for useless gear.

We deserve more to the gaming onion. More conflict, more diplomacy, more guild politics and a means to resolve them ingame and not on the forums.

[EDIT: Added a Post Script.]

P.S.

A PVP Meta Game could really fit in well here. With it comes territory control, access to resources, more crafting possibilites so non-PVPers can make their mark and still play a part in things... Stuff like that.

Is why i am asking for the creation of a PVP Focus Group/ Council so the ball can be bounced better rather than kicking the arguement can around on the forums. Let a few of us hammer out some ideas and pull it all together in a proposal for the rest of the community to review? Edited by Dora the Sabine Explorer

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I miss SWG pvp tbh, most of my ideas ive posted in these threads are based on it.

Also id be down for being in said focus group. Edited by Ryle

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[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1342667072' post='60635']
oh jeez, it's just a bit of fun. We're not bringing PvP to the game. Like Terrell said, there are very strict restrictions on the usage of the cannons, and the mining crystal is so far out of the way that you will never see it unless you want to go there.

So far there are no rewards either, and when there are rewards they will probably tend to be more on the visual side rather than anything else (other than a bit of XP, the same as what you could get doing anything else) ... Drop by at the next test and see what the go is to make an informed desicion.

cheers,

TB
[/quote] I get the feeling others would like to see a full blown PVP based EnB.

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[quote name='AZdexter' timestamp='1342830141' post='60686']
I get the feeling others would like to see a full blown PVP based EnB.
[/quote]

I PVP in other games such as Counter-Strike, TF2...all FPS type games. Those who enjoy MMO type PVP ought to be able to participate and those who don't care to...well, you get the idea. I'm no carebear but I definitely like the opt-out or opt-in choice.

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