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Raid Rotation Discussion Time For A Change?


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Ok i will make my suggestion using Holymans as a groundwork.

 

Make a 6 week rotation with 5 of them towards BI, Static, VGE, EG and SCC and the 6th one to Public. Since you already stated that public raiding without EG and SCC is almost non existent i see no need atm for anything more.

 

Now for slots belonging to the named 5 (lets go with that for a sec) each of them is forbidden to include members of the other 4 but can include any number of people not affiliated with the named 5.

 

For example VGE is forbidden to include people from BI/Static/EG/SCC but can include eg from Phoenix and Lunar Dawn, EG is forbidden to include people from SCC/VGE/Static/BI but can include eg from Disciples of Rebellion and Team Relaxed etc

 

For the Public anything except the named 5 goes.

 

What this plan tries to ensure is that everyone within the named 5 gets the same chance for the fun and loot with even a bit more favor towards those that need it and maybe cant get it on their own (Public).

 

Now i understand if Public needs a bit of help for a bit to nail down the basics. Of course a gathering of 2 each of VGE/Static/BI/EG/SCC and 2 from other guilds is not considered a Public raid for rotation purposes. Public players should be in excess of 65% at all times. (eg 9 out of 12). Anyone within the named 5 can help but will claim no loot at all times. ALL the loot will go to the few Public attendees and its up to them to distribute it to the rest of their guild members.

 

If at any point the unique participants of Public regularly exceed the raids max capacity (2-3 groups) we can revisit the rotation.

 

We can even divide DT into a Scooter and a Genril raid so only one slot will be in 'off mode' during a rotation. Aso align them so those 2 are not consecutive raids for any slot.

 

Fair, Unfair, for who and Why? Discuss

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Please explain to me why the 5 are more desirable. You haven't really said anything except it wouldn't work for you flamingpanda. Which content is created for specific groups? Also please read my Playground analogy and explain why it's wrong.

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Appears my attempt to bring the community together for raids has only split it into more groups.  The "Invites" to fill slots mentioned above would no doubt go to 'select people'. 

Also no one has said much about those who are in time zones that don't see raids due to low server pop in their time zone.  Do VGE/Static/BI  schedule their raids so that those players can join in? I know the public does not.

 

"Be careful what you ask for"   I herd this yet was not listening,

All the posts have been directed on how to split up the raids, none on how everyone can work together on them

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They can't enforce anything like that or they would do it in every single MMO name one game just one where content is created for specific groups and enforced by the staff that no one else can use it?

 

Want to know why there are no games that do this ? No new player would feel comfortable with this system and it would be the end of the game.

 

Your essentially making 5 guilds far more desirable then anything else in the game.

 

Its wrong.

I don't think you can compare this EnB Emulator to other MMO games.

 

It is a resurrected game using base code written more than a dozen years ago. The Development Team that resurrected it and work to keep it operational and moving forward do so for no money whatsoever; and we players pay no money to play it.

 

It is very difficult for the Emu Development Team to add additional content, or change existing fundamentals.

 

Converting all time-spawned raids to trigger-activated raids would be great. Reducing the times between spawns would also be an improvement. But that cannot be done easily.

 

This Game *DID* end: 12 years ago.

 

It has been resurrected by a Development Team and a Player-Base who have very fond memories of playing the Game, all those years ago. The relationship between the Dev Team and Player-Base is much closer and much more symbiotic than any commercially available contemporary game.

 

Comparing this EnB Emulator to a modern MMORPG is comparing apples with oranges: two different fruit.

 

The Development Team began this project for the love of the Game; and I suspect it is the opportunity to use their skills on a project for love rather than money, that keeps them engaged.

 

I'm a professional management consultant, and the kind of mediation, negotiation and arbitration I've been doing in this thread, I also do for money in my day job: and I can tell you that I have been enjoying contributing to this thread over the last few weeks far more than the rubbish I have to deal with for money.

 

The Community taking the initiative to bring some form of order to the accessing of the limited amount of End-Game Content is an attempt to reciprocate the efforts of the Development Team.

 

I would far rather Kyp & The Gang focused their limited time and effort on their excellent development activities, than waste it on trying to mediate between squabbling players.

 

I do think you are mistaken about there being no new players that would feel comfortable with this arrangement.

 

Apart from a very brief (and disengaged) period playing the Emu in 2012, pre-wipe, I've only been playing since March this year. I am a new player. I was not party to any of the discussions regarding the Raid Rotation, way back when.

 

And I am very comfortable with the Raid Rotation Agreement. I can totally understand why it needs to be in place. I've never participated in any of the raids in the Rotation. I'm sure I will, in the fullness of time, but I'm in no rush. What am I gonna do once I've raided everything there is to raid, and equipped everything there is to equip? Wait for the Expansion Pack..? Wait for a whole new load of DLC to become available..?

 

Of course, that's just me. I do understand from the tone and content of your posts Panda that you are keen to get raiding, and I'm not disparaging you for that: just suggesting that not everyone is going to have the same priorities as you when it comes to playing this particular game.

 

I do think you might find the situation less frustrating if you try and modulate your expectations with regards this Emulator. It really isn't comparable to any commercially available contemporary Game. The relationships within the Player-base, and between the Player-base and the Development Team are much more intimate. And a lot of us Old Timers like it that way, and are happy to accept and work with the limitations that are an inherent part of this Emulator's dynamics.

 

Change will and always does happen... But in this Game, it just happens much more slowly.

 

Some players aren't going to like that; but a lot players prefer it that way.

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Appears my attempt to bring the community together for raids has only split it into more groups.  The "Invites" to fill slots mentioned above would no doubt go to 'select people'. 

Also no one has said much about those who are in time zones that don't see raids due to low server pop in their time zone.  Do VGE/Static/BI  schedule their raids so that those players can join in? I know the public does not.

 

"Be careful what you ask for"   I herd this yet was not listening,

Lets break down your points of concern gunney.

 

'The "Invites" to fill slots mentioned above would no doubt go to 'select people'.

So i assume you're not in one of the named 5 and you don't have friends in any of them. Still the Public spot is yours and yours alone along with its loot and that loot is guaranteed to go to you if my plan gains traction. Still its up to the named 5 if they will even ask for outside help cause maybe they can singlebox every raid with their members alone as some have stated. Each guild is responsible for its own actions and the restrictions are to safeguard you and your equal opportunity, plus the leeway i'm promoting still might work in your favor and i hope you can see my design makes an effort to benefit the outsider.

 

'Also no one has said much about those who are in time zones that don't see raids due to low server pop in their time zone.  Do VGE/Static/BI  schedule their raids so that those players can join in? I know the public does not.'

I know for a fact that BI/Static/VGE make efforts to include all their players regardless of the timezone. Thats why the rotation switch date was changed so the whole weekend was available for better organizing to include them at least once per rotation slot.

If the Public makes no such efforts that is their problem to solve and you should take it up with them. You can't really expect us to be responsible for them do you?

 

Seems the gripe is with the way the public is managing its people and resources all along and i'm sorry to realise that so late in the discussion.

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Flamingpanda if you haven't been able to raid so far because of the number of people comprising Public group the further split up will make positions available to you that previously were not.

The restrictions and leeway i propose work towards benefiting the outsiders like yourself. See my answer to Gunney.

 

Still you vaguely say that 5 groups now (up from 3) control the endgame while i have proved you otherwise.

 

Now if you don't have any friends in this game to play with no amount of discussion can change your perspective. The raids were not designed to be completed by a single person. There is other content for that.

 

In the end what is your proposition and its advantages? i have made mine, can you?

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Well, I don't think you need have any concerns with regards Dev Enforcement. I think Kyp & Co. have made it quite clear that they don't want to get involved in anything to do with controlling access to the Raids; and that if they do get involved, it will be *THEIR* rules that they will enforce, not the Community's.

 

I don't think any of us see the Raid Rotation Agreement as an "authority". It is a consensus agreement that most of see the rationale for, and respect it for what it is.

 

It is worth acknowledging that there is no formal sanction that can be applied to any player who chooses not to respect the Raid Rotation Agreement.

 

Those who are keen to see the Raid Rotation Agreement maintained (in current or new form) will try to strongly discourage anyone from not adhering to it, primarily because of past experiences when it was unpleasantly Free-For-All. But that's all they can or will do: try to discourage.

 

If anyone ignores the Raid Agreement, they can't be harassed, stalked or in anyway have their Game Play interfered with. And they won't have to put up with any of that.

 

At worst, they will feel the cold shoulder of the /ignore command, but even that will dissipate quite quickly. The main reaction that breaking the Raid Agreement will create will be one of sadness and disappointment amongst the majority of players that are content with the current, generally positive In-Game atmosphere.

 

That's really the price a single player (or small group of players) has to pay for increasing their own enjoyment by ignoring the Raid Agreement: decreasing most everyone else's ability to enjoy the Game.

 

I multi-box *ALL* the time... Never less than 6 clients running on my PC; and when I'm doing a Gate Raid or Fishbowl, I have 9 clients running simultaneously. It has taken the Game to a new level for me: trying to manage 9 toons with different abilities/functions. And I'm quite sure I could have a fair crack at the time-spawned Raids if I felt so inclined.

 

But I've never been tempted to do so.

 

Because the element of the Game I most enjoy is being part of an intimate Player-Community that, on the whole, gets on so well with itself. My sons are always begging me to join in with the On-line Games they play, but frankly, I can't abide the negativity and griefing that seems to be so common to the Games that they play. But I don't judge. I just keep an eye out to make sure the language filter is in place for the Games my younger son plays, and let them get on with it, whilst I immerse myself in the more mellow and less intense EnB Emulator Experience.

 

And since enjoying the good natured and generally placid interaction in the EnB Community is what keeps me coming back day after day, any action on my part that might disrupt any of that, would be counter-productive.

 

So much as I am curious to see how I'd get on, multi-boxing the GoBB, 'Troller and RD Base, I know any enjoyment I might get from that would come at the cost of disrupting everyone else's enjoyment.

 

That's just not a cost I want to incur.

 

I'm sure an opportunity will arise at some point in the future. Maybe I'll catch Blacklung on a quiet night and he'll open the PRS for me and my Armada... But until then, no rush. Plenty of other stuff to enjoy in the Game.

 

Content *IS* available for all to do as they see fit.

 

And the Community of EnB Players is also available for all to engage with as they see fit.

 

I'd rather play this Game as a part of this Community, than apart from it.

 

But that's just an articulation of my personal choices. No personal attack is expressed or implied. Just hoping to shed some light on the motivations behind mine and others' support for the Raid Rotation Arrangement.

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Meanwhile...

 

There is a very solid and simple proposal now on the table (from Efi).

 

Be really useful to hear the (official) views of Static, B.I., Epic Gamers and S.C.C. on it.

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It's real simple (not saying the task to do it is super simple but doable) turn all the raids into a triggerable raid.  That way its just a matter of gathering the necessary method to trigger and queuing up your team to take the raid down.  Guild or non guilded.  Yes every single raid/spawn in game can be made to trigger, to say otherwise it just plain wrong.  Now does that mean it requires work from the DEVs to be done, certainly, the whole trigger and mission, drop rates of items etc would have to be created from scratch and can take some time to do so.  There in lies part of the issue, our volunteer staff already have hands full, so its a case of rob Peter to pay Paul.  

 

Then there is a matter of balance, in the days of Live the reason for the timer trigger was to ensure epic loots was not easily obtainable and spread out over time.  Why? Subscriptions...  Plain and simple otherwise you would get bored, quit and or complain there was nothing do to because you beat the game/acquired everything in record time.  There has to be a carrot and stick scenario here, sure we all play the game because we enjoy it, but look at how many people quickly vacate the game once they've obtained damn near everything.  With nothing left to do why stick around?  It is not like we get new content on a monthly basis (like Live was intended to be) and I'm not saying that negatively, its just a reality of volunteer staff, things take time and effort.  Heck and while Pandora's Box was opened with the allowance of Multiboxing it is a good and equally a negative setback but that is a whole other arguement.

 

So my suggestion would bepending the DEVs would be willing to acquiesce us, would be to turn all of these timer Raids into a triggered method ala GR/FB.  As well as ensure it is balanced and not easily obtainable to include a lockout once triggered (yes ways around this but a method has to exist) otherwise could amass enough triggers for GoBB that again breaks balance.  Keep in mind the real missing Bogeril Raid in Witberg required some serious efforts to get the trigger and the raid itself required some solid tactics and focus, I would think in terms of down the road preparations the above mention of all triggered raids would get us to that mentality and maybe bring us the Bogeril Raid sooner as well (not likely as I said the whole DEV time to do DEV things is limited) I had tried to step back into the DEV seat but alas a move and some life changes has made other plans for me.  Maybe things will change but for right now I'm on the sidelines again :/

 

Alternatively - leave it alone with the current rotation VGE,Static,BI, Public, if we want more, see about more PRS activity for now, EnB numbers are low (spiked with the Xmas break/release) but lets be real look at peak times factor out the multiboxing, and its a small footprint by any means.

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I think everyone is missing Gunney's point, can't we come up with some ideas to work together rather than splintering the rotation even more?  The rotation is reducing the number of raids that are being done in a given week.  In my opinion the rotation has removed all initiative to run the raid as soon as possible, some triggers sit for days at a time, wasting the loot that could go to those players that need it.

 

Here's my suggestion to the guild leaders, make the rotation about raid leadership rather than raid ownership.  Open your raids to anyone that wants to participate rather than just your guild.  If you need 12 players, announce it in general chat and get the first 12 players regardless of what guild they're in and do the raid as soon as you can.  As the guild leading the raid, participants need to meet your requirements (i.e. OL140+, max shields, etc.) and follow your lotto rules for loot distribution.  This should result in raids being run at different times of day giving players in different time zones better chance to participate.  Might even give some players incentive to get on-line when they know a trigger is due just to be able to participate.

 

From my experience, all the guild leaders are stand up folks and try to be fair, so if they're behind this idea and give the directive to their guild to involve other players and be fair to everyone regardless of guild affiliation, the guild will make it happen.  Now would this be a perfect system...no, there's always going to be someone who feels like they didn't get enough notice, the raid organizer might mess something up, those things happen.  The guild organizing the raid will likely have more folks there because they have ways to get a hold of their members off-line, others may feel like they didn't have enough chance to get in.  The point isn't to come up with a system that nobody is able to complain about, but to get more raids done per week and give more players a chance to win the loot.

 

As a final incentive to get the raids done quickly, if a trigger is sitting for more than 12 hours, it should become a free for all, so that anyone can take over the organization and get the trigger taken down.

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I have to admit Holyman you could chairm the robe off a Nun. You are very eloquent with words. Since I have a conflict of interest and can no longer be a member of the public counsel. I would like to offer my spot. Why? You have a unique way of looking at both sides, and this is needed.

 

As Leader of SCC, I can say that we do not want a slot in the rotation and are happy with where we stand at this time, meaning that we can show up when we want to do raids with the public and don't have to punch a time clock. Most of all, I would not want a raid to sit due to my guild not able to get on at the same time.   If there is no public raid we help each other and One is glade to be of service.

 

I hope you get my point. No matter where you go, there you are.

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I have to admit Holyman you could chairm the robe off a Nun. 

 

 

Heh. Going to have to pass that line to my agent and ask her to add it to my references.  :D

 

OK. So thanks very much for the offer of your spot as the Public Rep in the Raid Council.

 

If I say I'm happy to accept the offer, it is with a couple of provisos that may need to be worked out with the other players on that Council:

 

The first is that defining, re-forming, reconstituting or just plain carrying on with the business of the Raid Council may at the current stage be a little... Pre-emptive. I think we're still trying to confirm what that Council might be overseeing - or continuing to oversee. For any Council to be purposeful, it would really need a Terms of Reference, which would have to follow whatever it is that is agreed.

 

That said, there is an existing Rotation Agreement that is still current; so if it is a question of sitting in with the leaderships of Static, B.I. and V.G.E. for an off-line (off-forum...) conversation, I am happy to do that.

 

Second proviso for any on-going role... I think if I were representing the Great, Unwashed "Public", I'd feel a lot more comfortable doing that with as much transparency as possible. Which means that this Forum is probably the best place to conduct any meetings to discuss that sort of business, so that everyone I might be representing can, uh, monitor my performance..!

 

But like I said... Maybe getting a bit ahead of ourselves there.

 

More importantly: your decline of a permanent spot for S.C.C. might help move things along.

 

Efi has generously and constructively agreed to move from a 4-week to a 6-week schedule. Still waiting to hear from B.I. and Static on how they might feel about that. And also to (officially) hear from Epic Gamers to see if they want the slot that has been offered them.

 

But let's work on the assumption that B.I. and Static are okay to expand, and E.G. do want the slot. What we might now have is either a 5-week rotation, or a 6-week rotation with two weeks that could be set aside for "The Public" (week 3 and week 6 would make sense there).

 

So taking Flip and Gunney's points into consideration, how about this:

 

For a trial period at least, let the one or two weeks that it has been proposed to assign to (/keep with) "The Public" be run the way that Flip and Gunney are suggesting.

 

It shouldn't be any sweat to accommodate. The 3 or 4 Guilds in the Rotation can continue (or start) to run things in whatever way they feel as a Guild that they want to.

 

The "Public" weeks can be run along the lines that Flip has (very helpfully) proposed. Or variation(s) thereof. Call it a "Proof of Concept" if you like.

 

Flip: I think the "Business of Guilds" has to be those Guilds' business and nobody else's. What other purpose do Guilds serve in the Emulator, if not to create a small degree of seclusion/sequestration from the rest of the Community?

 

How they run their Raids... If, when, why or how they take down the Raids is entirely up to them. In my experience, it's best not to pry into the affairs of Private Members' Clubs that you have chosen not to be a member of (I become a member of those Clubs I'm *REALLY* interested to know what goes on in..!).

 

So would a happy medium, at least for an interim term be to let the Guilds continue to use their Raid Weeks as they see fit, whilst you and others test out your ideas and concepts on the weeks that are allocated to "The Public"?

 

If those tests of your concepts prove to be highly successful, then you'll have a lot more information and evidence with which to continue to press your case for a greater allocation of slots to "The Public", at the next review.

 

And finally Redd!

 

I would definitely like to see all Raids activated by a trigger. So, I think would just about everyone else. I only do the G8 and FB with my multi-box Armada *BECAUSE* they are trigger-activated, and I know I'm not robbing anyone else of any opportunity... (Though I can sometimes drag my heels on the G8-Raid if I'm having an all-fingers-no-thumbs day, and by the time I'm done, a bit of a queue has built up... Sorry all!)

 

But I think it has been established that the effort required and time and resources necessary to convert these Raids is not high on the Development Team's agenda... And personally, I think that's actually a good thing.

 

Who knows what Kyp & Co. might come up with if we give them a bit of Peace and Quiet?

 

Surely the most ideal situation would be for newer Raids to arrive and displace these rather well-worn ones. Doubtless any new End-Game Raids will be designed around trigger activations, and wouldn't it be a great situation to have everyone disregarding GoBB, RD, 'Troller and DT, because they've moved on to being obsessed with getting the even better loot that comes from the new Raids?

 

I think we've got to appreciate that everything we have available to us today has come from Kyp and The Development Team setting their own goals and managing their own progress and priorities. I can't imagine they would change those priorities to address minor squabbles over Raid Rotations, but even if they did, I wouldn't want them to.

 

The four existing raids being trigger-activated would be great. But all new (and trigger-activated!) Raids would be even better! Wouldn't you say?  :D

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As Leader of SCC, I can say that we do not want a slot in the rotation and are happy with where we stand at this time, meaning that we can show up when we want to do raids with the public and don't have to punch a time clock. Most of all, I would not want a raid to sit due to my guild not able to get on at the same time.   If there is no public raid we help each other and One is glade to be of service.

 

I hope you get my point. No matter where you go, there you are.

I agree with this.  Leave the current agreement alone.  I initially pushed for an Epic spot and was not happy about passing the tests and still being denied a spot.  Despite my original feelings about it, I am glad things turned out the way they did.  I am happy with how well the public raids have worked for the last 2 years.

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It's real simple (not saying the task to do it is super simple but doable) turn all the raids into a triggerable raid.  That way its just a matter of gathering the necessary method to trigger and queuing up your team to take the raid down.  Guild or non guilded.  Yes every single raid/spawn in game can be made to trigger, to say otherwise it just plain wrong.  Now does that mean it requires work from the DEVs to be done, certainly, the whole trigger and mission, drop rates of items etc would have to be created from scratch and can take some time to do so.  There in lies part of the issue, our volunteer staff already have hands full, so its a case of rob Peter to pay Paul.  

 

Then there is a matter of balance, in the days of Live the reason for the timer trigger was to ensure epic loots was not easily obtainable and spread out over time.  Why? Subscriptions...  Plain and simple otherwise you would get bored, quit and or complain there was nothing do to because you beat the game/acquired everything in record time.  There has to be a carrot and stick scenario here, sure we all play the game because we enjoy it, but look at how many people quickly vacate the game once they've obtained damn near everything.  With nothing left to do why stick around?  It is not like we get new content on a monthly basis (like Live was intended to be) and I'm not saying that negatively, its just a reality of volunteer staff, things take time and effort.  Heck and while Pandora's Box was opened with the allowance of Multiboxing it is a good and equally a negative setback but that is a whole other arguement.

 

So my suggestion would bepending the DEVs would be willing to acquiesce us, would be to turn all of these timer Raids into a triggered method ala GR/FB.  As well as ensure it is balanced and not easily obtainable to include a lockout once triggered (yes ways around this but a method has to exist) otherwise could amass enough triggers for GoBB that again breaks balance.  Keep in mind the real missing Bogeril Raid in Witberg required some serious efforts to get the trigger and the raid itself required some solid tactics and focus, I would think in terms of down the road preparations the above mention of all triggered raids would get us to that mentality and maybe bring us the Bogeril Raid sooner as well (not likely as I said the whole DEV time to do DEV things is limited) I had tried to step back into the DEV seat but alas a move and some life changes has made other plans for me.  Maybe things will change but for right now I'm on the sidelines again :/

 

Alternatively - leave it alone with the current rotation VGE,Static,BI, Public, if we want more, see about more PRS activity for now, EnB numbers are low (spiked with the Xmas break/release) but lets be real look at peak times factor out the multiboxing, and its a small footprint by any means.

 

Not quite. Your perspective changes when you become a game developer. Your goal is no longer "Get ALL the things!" but instead "How do I make this game enjoyable for the longest amount of time and increase replayability / enjoyability for the largest slice of my player base?"

 

Speaking as someone who once played in live, now that I've helped to resurrect it and been involved for so long, and have the ability to generate whatever items I want (thus everything is easy to get) and happen to know where most everything is and how it's set up, it's hard to want to sit down and play a class for more than a night or two. The reality is, when there is no stick it's like a bad piece of gum, it loses it's flavor very quickly. This is a hard perspective to see from the player point of view. It's not 'just about subscriptions', any professional game developer will tell you the same things.

 

I think a in game poll is necesary to gage a acurate response showing the opinion of the entire base not just the ones hardened enough to come to the forums .

 

If and when someone gets a coherent enough idea for a poll, we can post a link to the thread on the launcher. There is no easy way of doing an 'in-game' poll without designing a system for it, would take less time to do that and ask everyone to vote.

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Gunney (post #14, 1st page) you said that within the public about half of them raid 'every single flippin raid' while others do once or twice a week or worse once per 3-4 motnhs and thats because public has 2-3 times the people able to raid and a restructuring is needed.
Now when a restructuring is on the table you say you never asked for the further division of the players. So whats your plan to help those people in public that rarely get to raid?

You also said there is a Timezone issue that public doesn't take into account and i've shown you that within the 3 well organized guilds (BI/Static/VGE and i'm not saying others are not) that currently hold spots in the rotation, considerations are made for that because its easier to manage smaller more coherent groups than a disjointed collection of groups who each may see issues from a different angle.

Also (post #115, page 6) you state that with the exclusion of EG and SCC from Public the really low numbers of what is left will need to fill open slots via open server invite and its darn close to what you want.

Pestillence (post #23, 2nd page) mentions that if any of the original 3 dont have the numbers to do the raids without multiboxing they should step down of their spot and another take their place. Yet when spots were offered they were shot down.

Furthermore, while you don't want to punch a time clock to do a raid you say the ones that don't punch that same clock are creating a problem.

What all this boils down to is this:

You brought up the issue of the rotation agreement needing restructuring with various reasons. Yet when adequately documented alternatives were presented you just shot them down.

Stay for a minute then and think what will make things better. To come this far you should already have an idea of what things should be on your mind. Put it down in writing and document it, lay down the rules and how it will improve on what we have now while preventing the same issues of cropping up.

Some say free for all with no rules, lets put that down,
Others say leave the current agreement as it is, lets put that down.
Some might say leave the agreement as it is and add some rules, lets put that down.
Take my new proposition with its rules and put that down.
Take Holymans proposition and lets put that down as well.

Yes i'm a stickler for rules because i believe they give structure in our life and prevent the law of the jungle.
For me the devil is in the details.

Make your proposal and lets put it down with the rest, discuss what can be improved with each one and finally we can all ally ourselves with the one most people agree with.
As Kyp said he can help us by providing info directly into the launcher for all to see.

Bringing up an issue, not making any concise proposals of your own while shooting down the ideas that crop up will make me think it was all done so a few can get the spotlight.

Lets bring this issue to an end.

 

Holyman since you're are doing a damn fine job seeing both sides of the coin i would like to ask you to gather all well documented plans that will/have shown up here and maybe come new year we can make a new thread were we can post all of them together for people to see and have a vote for selecting the one most will agree with.

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Lets bring this issue to an end.

 

Holyman since you're are doing a damn fine job seeing both sides of the coin i would like to ask you to gather all well documented plans that will/have shown up here and maybe come new year we can make a new thread were we can post all of them together for people to see and have a vote for selecting the one most will agree with.

Thank you Efi.

 

And happily!

 

To start to steer towards a conclusion then... We have two definite options for any eventual poll:

 

1) Do away altogether with any Community arrangement or agreement regarding the four time-spawned Raids.

 

2) Keep the current Raid Rotation Agreement exactly as it is.

 

OK, then we'll have your proposal Efi as option 3 - modified slightly to account for S.C.C.'s declining of a permanent slot:

 

###

 

A 5 week rotation with 4 weeks allocated 1 each to B.I., Static, V.G.E. and E.G.; and the remaining 5th week allocated to the Public.

 

The four Guilds with their own rotation slots define their own rules for how they conduct their own raids. In their week, it is up to them what, how and if they do anything with the Raid Trigger that is their's for the week.

 

However, the four named Guilds are forbidden from including members of the other three named Guilds in any Raid Party; but may invite any other player that is not affiliated with the other three named Guilds to join in with their Raids.

 

Regarding the week allocated to "The Public" (and I'm going to paraphrase a bit here Efi, 'cos you got a little fuzzy in #130..! But obviously correct any missteps I make.):

 

No member of the four named Guilds may initiate or organise a Raid during the Public's week.

 

However, members of the four named Guilds may participate (in any capacity) in a Public-Week Raid, provided the Raid Party is made up of at least a clear majority (=> 65%) of non named-Guild players. Any member of the named Guilds participating in a Public-Week Raid may not claim loot.

 

It is up to whichever member(s) of "The Public" organises and leads the Raid to determine how loot will be distributed.

 

If it becomes obvious that unique participants of Public-Week raids are regularly exceeding the maximum practical capacity (2 - 3 groups), the Rotation Allocation will be revisited to consider allocating additional time to "The Public".

 

(How'd I do Efi?  :unsure: )

 

###

 

OK, Option 4 would be my proposition (hope you're all sitting comfortably!):

 

The Rotation Cycle to be made a 6 week cycle (or a 5 week cycle if Epic Gamers declines a permanent spot).

 

If 6-week (4 x Permanent Guilds):

 

(W)eek1 - (G)uild1; W2 - G2; W3 - Public; W4 - G3; W5 - G4; W6 - Public.

 

If 5 -week (3 x Permanent Guilds):

 

W1 - G1: W2 - Public; W3 - G2; W4 - Public; W5 - G3.

 

Each named Guild with a permanent seat in the Rotation entirely sets its own rules. The spawn is their's to do with as they see fit - if they even feel like doing anything at all with it. They can invite any non-Guild players from any other Guild (including from the other named Guilds in the Rotation); and if they want to, they can donate their spawn to the Public. 

 

Their allocated week = their spawn, to do with as they please, according to their own, In-House Rules.

 

Also: once a Guild has been awarded a permanent seat in the Rotation, it is a tenured position. That means they can only surrender that permanent seat, it cannot be taken away from them.

 

Looking back over the thread before writing this post, I could see that one of the key concerns expressed by several posters (including myself), was about what qualified a Guild to maintain a permanent seat in the Rotation. What if a Guild was regularly "wasting" spawns, because they weren't interested in taking it down that week, or couldn't summon up the interest within their Guild?

 

There were several suggestions that the active player-base within a Guild that held a permanent spot should be assessed and/or monitored in order to justify that spot.

 

But I got to thinking about this...

 

First off: having to operate/enforce some kind of monitoring/oversight system to ensure that a Guild with a permanent seat in the Rotation still qualifies would be... Onerous. Not to mention a bit oppressive...

 

But second off:  I think the members and leadership of B.I., Static, V.G.E. and Epic Gamers have *EARNED* tenure in the Rotation Agreement.

 

Based on my own experiences in-Game, and what I see on the Market Channel, I'll bet there can't be many players flying around the Galaxy that don't have at least a couple of useful items built by members of those Guilds. Items that were built as-needed, when-needed, and with a lot of value-added advice thrown into the deal for free! Couple that with the patience, resilience and contribution that the leaderships of these Guilds have put into the Game since its resurrection, and I think the whole Community owes them a lot of gratitude.

 

So I think permanent seats in the Rotation should be for these Guilds to surrender, rather than to have to maintain qualification for. They've earned tenure.

 

And like I mentioned, that also has the advantage of not having to formulate or implement any system of monitoring or oversight to see who qualifies for a permanent seat on an on-going basis.

 

Since we're requesting that these Guilds' memberships lose a little bit of regular access to the Raids; I think giving them tenure in their position would be an appropriate compensation.

 

The Public Weeks then, an exact repetition of Efi's proposal:

 

No member of the four named Guilds may initiate or organise a Raid during the Public's week.

 

However, members of the four named Guilds may participate (in any capacity) in a Public-Week Raid, provided the Raid Party is made up of at least a clear majority (=> 65%) of non named-Guild players. Any member of the named Guilds participating in a Public-Week Raid may not claim loot.

 

It is up to whichever member(s) of "The Public" organises and leads the Raid to determine how loot will be distributed.

 

If it becomes obvious that unique participants of Public-Week raids are regularly exceeding the maximum practical capacity (2 - 3 groups), the Rotation Allocation will be revisited to consider allocating additional time to "The Public".

 

Also, a suggestion for the management of the Public Week allocations:

 

Why not make a Rotation Agreement within a Rotation Agreement?

 

For the Public, select/appoint/volunteer three Public representatives: one based in Europe; one based on the East Coast of the U.S.; and one based on the West Coast.

 

Within each of the two weeks that are assigned to the Public (in my proposal), have one European Raid, one East Coast Raid, and one West Coast Raid. And have the three Public representatives (and any deputies they require) co-ordinate the handover among themselves.

 

Or perhaps with two weeks assigned to "The Public", have one week as a "Free-for-All" (though with the rules regarding named-Guild member participation still in effect), as it is now; and have the second week as a "TimeZone Week".

 

The three Public Representatives would also then be the obvious nominees to participate in any Raid Council that might operate.

 

And finally:

 

The Raid Rotation "Week" runs from 00:00 UTC Wednesday to 23:59 UTC Monday.

 

No Raids are to be triggered on the Tuesday.

 

The reasons for which should hopefully be self-explanatory.

 

###

 

So that's four options so far. The first two of which are a given; and the third and fourth are still open to discussion, correction and/or modification.

 

The Floor is still open for additional options/suggestions!

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Thank you Efi.

 

And happily!

 

To start to steer towards a conclusion then... We have two definite options for any eventual poll:

 

1) Do away altogether with any Community arrangement or agreement regarding the four time-spawned Raids.

 

2) Keep the current Raid Rotation Agreement exactly as it is.

 

OK, then we'll have your proposal Efi as option 3 - modified slightly to account for S.C.C.'s declining of a permanent slot:

 

###

 

A 5 week rotation with 4 weeks allocated 1 each to B.I., Static, V.G.E. and E.G.; and the remaining 5th week allocated to the Public.

 

The four Guilds with their own rotation slots define their own rules for how they conduct their own raids. In their week, it is up to them what, how and if they do anything with the Raid Trigger that is their's for the week.

 

However, the four named Guilds are forbidden from including members of the other three named Guilds in any Raid Party; but may invite any other player that is not affiliated with the other three named Guilds to join in with their Raids.

 

Regarding the week allocated to "The Public" (and I'm going to paraphrase a bit here Efi, 'cos you got a little fuzzy in #130..! But obviously correct any missteps I make.):

 

No member of the four named Guilds may initiate or organise a Raid during the Public's week.

 

However, members of the four named Guilds may participate (in any capacity) in a Public-Week Raid, provided the Raid Party is made up of at least a clear majority (=> 65%) of non named-Guild players. Any member of the named Guilds participating in a Public-Week Raid may not claim loot.

 

It is up to whichever member(s) of "The Public" organises and leads the Raid to determine how loot will be distributed.

 

If it becomes obvious that unique participants of Public-Week raids are regularly exceeding the maximum practical capacity (2 - 3 groups), the Rotation Allocation will be revisited to consider allocating additional time to "The Public".

 

(How'd I do Efi?  :unsure: )

 

###

 

OK, Option 4 would be my proposition (hope you're all sitting comfortably!):

 

The Rotation Cycle to be made a 6 week cycle (or a 5 week cycle if Epic Gamers declines a permanent spot).

 

If 6-week (4 x Permanent Guilds):

 

(W)eek1 - (G)uild1; W2 - G2; W3 - Public; W4 - G3; W5 - G4; W6 - Public.

 

If 5 -week (3 x Permanent Guilds):

 

W1 - G1: W2 - Public; W3 - G2; W4 - Public; W5 - G3.

 

Each named Guild with a permanent seat in the Rotation entirely sets its own rules. The spawn is their's to do with as they see fit - if they even feel like doing anything at all with it. They can invite any non-Guild players from any other Guild (including from the other named Guilds in the Rotation); and if they want to, they can donate their spawn to the Public. 

 

Their allocated week = their spawn, to do with as they please, according to their own, In-House Rules.

 

Also: once a Guild has been awarded a permanent seat in the Rotation, it is a tenured position. That means they can only surrender that permanent seat, it cannot be taken away from them.

 

Looking back over the thread before writing this post, I could see that one of the key concerns expressed by several posters (including myself), was about what qualified a Guild to maintain a permanent seat in the Rotation. What if a Guild was regularly "wasting" spawns, because they weren't interested in taking it down that week, or couldn't summon up the interest within their Guild?

 

There were several suggestions that the active player-base within a Guild that held a permanent spot should be assessed and/or monitored in order to justify that spot.

 

But I got to thinking about this...

 

First off: having to operate/enforce some kind of monitoring/oversight system to ensure that a Guild with a permanent seat in the Rotation still qualifies would be... Onerous. Not to mention a bit oppressive...

 

But second off:  I think the members and leadership of B.I., Static, V.G.E. and Epic Gamers have *EARNED* tenure in the Rotation Agreement.

 

Based on my own experiences in-Game, and what I see on the Market Channel, I'll bet there can't be many players flying around the Galaxy that don't have at least a couple of useful items built by members of those Guilds. Items that were built as-needed, when-needed, and with a lot of value-added advice thrown into the deal for free! Couple that with the patience, resilience and contribution that the leaderships of these Guilds have put into the Game since its resurrection, and I think the whole Community owes them a lot of gratitude.

 

So I think permanent seats in the Rotation should be for these Guilds to surrender, rather than to have to maintain qualification for. They've earned tenure.

 

And like I mentioned, that also has the advantage of not having to formulate or implement any system of monitoring or oversight to see who qualifies for a permanent seat on an on-going basis.

 

Since we're requesting that these Guilds' memberships lose a little bit of regular access to the Raids; I think giving them tenure in their position would be an appropriate compensation.

 

The Public Weeks then, an exact repetition of Efi's proposal:

 

No member of the four named Guilds may initiate or organise a Raid during the Public's week.

 

However, members of the four named Guilds may participate (in any capacity) in a Public-Week Raid, provided the Raid Party is made up of at least a clear majority (=> 65%) of non named-Guild players. Any member of the named Guilds participating in a Public-Week Raid may not claim loot.

 

It is up to whichever member(s) of "The Public" organises and leads the Raid to determine how loot will be distributed.

 

If it becomes obvious that unique participants of Public-Week raids are regularly exceeding the maximum practical capacity (2 - 3 groups), the Rotation Allocation will be revisited to consider allocating additional time to "The Public".

 

Also, a suggestion for the management of the Public Week allocations:

 

Why not make a Rotation Agreement within a Rotation Agreement?

 

For the Public, select/appoint/volunteer three Public representatives: one based in Europe; one based on the East Coast of the U.S.; and one based on the West Coast.

 

Within each of the two weeks that are assigned to the Public (in my proposal), have one European Raid, one East Coast Raid, and one West Coast Raid. And have the three Public representatives (and any deputies they require) co-ordinate the handover among themselves.

 

Or perhaps with two weeks assigned to "The Public", have one week as a "Free-for-All" (though with the rules regarding named-Guild member participation still in effect), as it is now; and have the second week as a "TimeZone Week".

 

The three Public Representatives would also then be the obvious nominees to participate in any Raid Council that might operate.

 

And finally:

 

The Raid Rotation "Week" runs from 00:00 UTC Wednesday to 23:59 UTC Monday.

 

No Raids are to be triggered on the Tuesday.

 

The reasons for which should hopefully be self-explanatory.

 

###

 

So that's four options so far. The first two of which are a given; and the third and fourth are still open to discussion, correction and/or modification.

 

The Floor is still open for additional options/suggestions!

The problem is, that now EG has also said they don't want a rotation slot, they want it left alone. Or at least, that is what was said via GHB.

 

So, back to exactly where it started ....

 

This thread is making my head hurt and my nose bleed.

 

For me, raiding is not worth this much effort. I only speak up here because I know what my fellow guildmates would want.

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Very well said Holyman.

 

One tiny correction so there are no misunderstandings.

 

It is up to whichever member(s) of "The Public" organises and leads the Raid to determine how loot will be distributed among the Public.

 

Don't want to leave room for interpretation on the point of named guild participants not claiming loot during a Public rotation raid, regardless if the organizer has a different opinion.

 

 

Alurra if EG, SCC or any one from Public in general didn't want change they shouldn't have brought this up and expressed themselves in no uncertain terms against the current Agreement.

Now that change has knocked on their door and is looking them right in the face seems they never had formulated a well documented opinion of how things could be better and the currently perceived injustice would be turned into a fair new system/agreement for everyone.

Edited by Efialtis
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The problem is, that now EG has also said they don't want a rotation slot, they want it left alone. Or at least, that is what was said via GHB.

 

So, back to exactly where it started ....

 

I think that's ok: I did anticipate that as a possibility after S.C.C. declined the slot they were offered.

 

So in my proposal I did describe a "five week cycle" (if E.G. declined).

 

I guess I'd look to Efi now to see if he still felt the need to keep his proposal as a stand-alone offering (but without E.G.), roll it up into Proposal 2 ("Keep Things As They Are"), or incorporate/merge his proposal with mine.

 

Have to say that with E.G. and S.C.C. declining the offer, that already constitutes some positive progress in my book.

 

Scan through this thread and some of the others, and one of the issues that has been contentious was about other Guilds being offered places in the Rotation, and what steps they might have to (or did...) go through to qualify.

 

But now that two significant Guilds have declined a no-requirements/qualification offer to participate in any new Rotation Agreement, that will somewhat neutralise any future arguments about additional Guilds being blocked from joining the Rotation.

 

Couple that with what Efi has highlighted - that people are quick to criticise what exists, but when offered the opportunity to propose an alternative, come up short - then I think even if nothing changes at all in the Raid Rotation Agreement, substantial progress has already been made in terms of reducing opportunities for conflict around it.

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Read Post # 6 I said keep as is and I did not ask for a slot.

Yup, got that Syber.

 

Was conscious from the point I first brought it up that I might have been trying to foist something on you/S.C.C. that you didn't particularly want.

 

Was thinking more about the, uh, "debate" around E.G.'s previous attempts to gain a seat in the Raid Rotation when I was referring to the contentiousness; plus other general comments about additional Guilds joining the Rotation.

 

Hopefully in the future, this thread will be a good reference point for anyone who feels that the existing Rotation-Seat holding Guilds are resistant to anyone else joining them!

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*blink-blink*

 

Holyman, not everyone uses that black scheme, even though it's the default. Those colors were painful on the default IPBoard background. I had to highlight them all to read them. :)

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