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Gunney

Raid Rotation Discussion Time For A Change?

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Keep in mind the Rotation ala Big 3 does not preclude people from a non Big 3 guild from forming up and running a raid (during the Big 3 rotation) according to the EMU Staff last I checked it was merely an agreement between the Big 3 to keep things civil.  Time and time again have I seen this topic come up and I watch in game, and see the public doing raids and not doing them as well due to being able to form groups.  Reading this post it appears as though there is another BIGGER guild apparently based on someone seeing a guild tag more than others?  Nothing is prohibiting them or anyone else from doing a Raid in game, other than the gentlemen/woman's agreement that people have followed.

 

But to be honest, I barely see people chiming in for a GR or FB raid anymore let alone the timered raids ala GoBB/Troller/RD Base etc.  And that is over the past 2+ weeks, I've been sitting on triggers for both and at random times looking for people in guild and outside guild to go.  Needless to say, still have the triggers.

 

On a personal note, keep it as is, since it appears to work.  PRS was a nice addition but again when they were being done more frequently awhile ago (I havent seen or made it to any in recent months so might just be a timing issue on my part) it was majority Big 3 showing and doing them anyhow.

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I have been wondering about the purpose of Guilds within the Emulator.

 

In Live, with 2,000+ players on each server, being a member of a Guild – and the presence of Guilds as a whole – made a lot of sense, because it was a sub-division of the Server Population as a whole. It meant you could approach another player and/or make a request, on Guild affiliation alone, without feeling like you were begging off strangers.

 

(Plus a whole load of other dynamics and facilities that made the Guild System in Live good... But I’m going to try and be concise here!)

 

One of the things that makes the existence of Guilds in the Emulator less beneficial… Is that virtually every player in the Emu is so helpful, friendly and polite!

 

In terms of a cultural dynamic, the entire player-base within the Emulator feels like a single Guild used to feel in Live.

 

So… What purpose do Guilds serve in the Emulator?

 

What is the dynamic nature of the relationships between Guilds, and between Guild members and non-Guild members?

 

In the Emulator – unlike in Live – is there anything that a Guild Player would *ONLY* do for a fellow Guild member, that they wouldn’t do for a player who is not a member of the same Guild?

 

Have to say – and I really am presenting this as a positive! – that I have never experienced anything that suggests Guilds in the Emulator practice any form of discrimination against non-Guild members.

 

Which is a good thing, isn’t it?

 

So… Turning to the issue of the Raid Rotation…

 

What if:

 

The Rotation Schedule was altered so that every other week was a “Public” slot; and the *THREE* big guilds had to compete or qualify (in some way) for the *TWO* remaining slots in the four-weekly cycle?

 

Not sure what the competition or qualification for the two “Big Guild” slots would be; except that it would need to be something fluid that allowed each of the “Big Three” an equal chance of being awarded the two available Guild Slots, every time those Slots were up for grabs.

 

Perhaps that is something that the “Big Three” could discuss and agree amongst themselves. It would obviously need to be something that could be verified with publicly available information, or adjudicated in an open – and FUN! – way.

 

Could be something like a Guild tag-count of on-line toons in a particular sector? Could be a relay race of a tradable item around the Galaxy? Could be a verbal debate on some Game-related topic, with the winner of the debate decided by the Public?

 

Or could just be a roll of the random number generator?

 

&c., &c.

 

But it strikes me that having something that the “Big Three” had to actually compete for, would increase the sense of purpose of Guildhood in the Emulator, and generate some positive inter-Guild rivalry.

 

And by only allocating two of the weeks in the four-weekly Raid cycle to “The Big Three”, there would be one additional week given over to “The Public” (whoever they are these days..!).

 

Thoughts?

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good points holyman.... i believe that one of the underlying issues of this topic thread is that alot of the european and west coast usa players are missing out on alot of the raids overall because of the time zone difference...most of the raids are done mostly in the prime time of the eastern standard time zone,which is too late at night for the euros and too early for the west coasters...i have noticed that on the public raid side that they have had their raids later in the evenings est to include the west coasters and also very early in the mornings est to include the euros...

 

thank you guys for keeping this thread civil...

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I have an idea that is not intended to cause strife and conflict.  It is apparent that the true root cause to the issue at this point would be when a guild kills a raid at 11:30 on Monday that in turn causes a delay to the next guild in rotation.  

 

My idea is keep the rotation as is, with the current guilds that are in rotation, but to add a timer to the gentlemen agreement that we have.  at 12 noon on Saturday, if the raid is up and not being taken down by noon on Saturday, then that raid and all the other raids in the same condition become FFA until Monday at noon when the weekly rotation come back into affect. 

 

This will still keep the current rotation and each guild in rotation(or public) will retain their slot, but will allow the next rotation the guilds being able to Raid on their incoming raid that monday.

 

If you bring parties to raid something that is there still and the current guild has not started, yet another group, you were not included with has started, we will still be gentlemen and not KS a raid.

 

This works for all groups in rotation, if you take yours down, at noon on Saturday, you can also go and look to take any other Raids that are up and are now considered FFA.  Its a win win for all.

 

I also believe that this increase in action would bring more players into the game more, with the anticipation of possibly getting an "extra" raid per week if one is not taken down yet.

 

Thoughts?

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So...

 

Keep the rotation as it is, but have the ownership/assignment of it (to whichever Guild's turn it is) run from 00:01 UTC on the Monday of the week through to 23:59 UTC on the Friday?

 

That would make life easier from an awareness point of view wouldn't it?

 

All Raids are FFA (including any of the "Big Three" Guilds) on Saturdays and Sundays; and Public (but not "Big Three") every fourth week?

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yes that is a good idea...i think we should try the free for all weekends for a month to see if it helps ease the issues that plagues the rotations now....submit your opinions to see if we need to put it to a vote.....thx guys for keeping this civil :)

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I am more than happy to give a few ideas a trial run and then see which one will work the best for everyone. If nothing else it will bring on some very interesting times ahead :D

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Hmm, I don't think we need do a free for all on the weekends. Once again we do have an outlet and it is called the PRS. Yes, yes I know that this has to be kicked off by a staff member...IE...GM's. Maybe Cimbad could put a bug in a few GM's ears and see if we can get this kicked off again and not mess with the Rotation.

 

That's all I have to say in this matter. Keep rotation as is.

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The issue I see with the 'change on a Saturday' thing is that the rotation was changed to a Monday to allow the raiders the weekend to get their collective butts together in the first place. Allowing for different time zones and such to collaborate over the weekend when most folks are off.  There were multiple complaints previously when the rotation ended mid weekend specifically for that reason. Going backward hardly seems like a good solution for going forward ...

 

The one common thread that I've seen the most in this particular thread is "leave it alone".

 

You can add my vote to the "leave it alone" camp as well. I've always been a firm believer in "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it".

 

@Traderben. To your earlier question about whether there is a council of sorts set up for this very kind of thing. Yes, there is. The public has either 2 or 3 representatives, I forget how many exactly now. I believe Syberfly is one of them, if I'm not mistaken. There are also, usually, 2 members of each of the rotation guilds that participate. However, as Gunney pointed out, he's trying to solicit opinions to see what the general consensus of the players are. Doesn't require any sort of 'council' meeting so far as I can see.

 

Fly Safe

 

-Alurra

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The one common thread that I've seen the most in this particular thread is "leave it alone".

 

You can add my vote to the "leave it alone" camp as well. I've always been a firm believer in "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it".

 

Actually... I think there are two common threads:

 

One is certainly, "leave it alone".

 

But the other is "Change things."

 

However... "Do away with the Rotation System altogether." is *NOT* a suggestion that seems to have any support.

 

It does seem that everyone agrees that some form of ordered control/rotation is necessary, to avoid all of the... Unpleasantness that comes with having it all "Free For All".

 

But it also seems that the driver for most in the "Change Things" Camp, is the legitimacy/qualification of "The Big Three".

 

One question:

 

This forum and most peoples' Chat Logs are replete with examples of what happens when one of "The Big Three" encroaches on the Raid Entitlement of one of the other "Big Three".

 

But what happens if any spontaneous Public Group, Multi-boxer, or non- "Big Three" Guild takes down a Raid that is currently allocated to one of the Triumvirate?

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Holyman

This forum and most peoples' Chat Logs are replete with examples of what happens when one of "The Big Three" encroaches on the Raid Entitlement of one of the other "Big Three".

 

But what happens if any spontaneous Public Group, Multi-boxer, or non- "Big Three" Guild takes down a Raid that is currently allocated to one of the Triumvirate?

 

 

It is not and never was my intention to spur on a revolt to the current system.  Just tossin that out there  =)

 

To me it seems that in the past when a trigger was taken "Out of turn" there were some underlining past issues that were brought to the surface, or possibly those issues/arguments were the reason of the trigger being taken?

 

Alurra

The issue I see with the 'change on a Saturday' thing is that the rotation was changed to a Monday to allow the raiders the weekend to get their collective butts together in the first place. Allowing for different time zones and such to collaborate over the weekend when most folks are off.  There were multiple complaints previously when the rotation ended mid weekend specifically for that reason. Going backward hardly seems like a good solution for going forward

 

Then what if it was done the other way, rotation slots are reserved for the weekend only, giving that guild/group the chance to schedule for their group.  Durring the week, when fewer people are in game leave it 'open' to all

 

The triggers will be watched, I seriously doubt any 1 person, or small group of people would be able to take a trigger without others knowing.

 

As Ive said before, when the trigger spawns for public, there is a 'call to arms' so to say, people show up form groups and HAVE A GOOD TIME. I fail to see why this method would "Fall into chaos" if it was to involve everyone on the server. Is there something about VGE  BI  or Static that cause issues???

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As Ive said before, when the trigger spawns for public, there is a 'call to arms' so to say, people show up form groups and HAVE A GOOD TIME. I fail to see why this method would "Fall into chaos" if it was to involve everyone on the server. Is there something about VGE  BI  or Static that cause issues???

 

Looking back over some (or most) of the Forum-based material relating to the Raid Rotation... It does seem that the conflict was always between the "Big Three".

 

The accord that was reached then, was intended to mediate between these three guilds. And "The Public" got the fourth weekly spot in the cycle as a concession...

 

I can't recall any post describing any conflict arising from a non-"Big Three" Guild or group of "Public" players taking a raid when it belonged to one of the "Big Three"... Though I suppose that doesn't mean that never happened.

 

I like your suggestion that the Rotation Period covers the weekends... Say 00:01 UTC on Friday to 23:59 on Monday?

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good input so far i will let the thread run till the weekend then i will set up a vote on the most common suggestions

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good input so far i will let the thread run till the weekend then i will set up a vote on the most common suggestions

 

You are way over stepping your non-elected post as ADV here. I seem to remember most of the same people here trashing Alurra when she posted on matters like this. I remind you that you are a go between the players and the DEV's. That in no way gives you the power (for lack of a better term) to project yourself into player agreements.  You have no right to call a vote. Your authorities only go so far as to send request and questions to the DEV's and then post answers to them. BTW when was the last time you did that? You seem to have time to post here but not your responsibility's as ADV.

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You are way over stepping your non-elected post as ADV here. ...  You have no right to call a vote. ...

call it a poll then cimbad, getting the general public's opinion would be a good thing.  Not all, but MOST of the "leave it as it is" replies I've seen are members of the big three so you pretty much know what they're going to answer.  Which leads to the question, are there enough people NOT in the big three to show a possible need for change?  No offense intended, but I'm glad I'm not in your "non-elected post" to have to find a way to count big three vs public votes.

 

BTW I seem to recall that there WAS an election but there was something about not enough votes or something?  Seems after every U.S. Presidential election I hear something along the lines of "Don't fail to vote then threaten to secede when things don't go your way"

Edited by Stoop
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You are way over stepping your non-elected post as ADV here. I seem to remember most of the same people here trashing Alurra when she posted on matters like this. I remind you that you are a go between the players and the DEV's. That in no way gives you the power (for lack of a better term) to project yourself into player agreements.  You have no right to call a vote. Your authorities only go so far as to send request and questions to the DEV's and then post answers to them. BTW when was the last time you did that? You seem to have time to post here but not your responsibility's as ADV.

Bit harsh.

 

I only see Cimbad facilitating the flow and progress of the discussion here.

 

He's not taking on or claiming any authority to do anything. Any one of us could create a poll on the topic at any point: Gunney could have done it if he desired.

 

Nobody is suggesting that the results of any poll that might be created (by Cimbad, Gunney or whomever) will be binding. It's an attempt to gauge the general sentiment and disposition of those who are following this discussion.

 

Cimbad seems an obvious person to act as facilitator, since as Advocate, he is more or less required to maintain a studied neutrality. And the main focus of that neutrality is between what the Players want, and what *HE* wants. I haven't noticed any indication that Cimbad is behaving without that required impartiality, have you?

 

As for when, how and why Cimbad chooses to function as Player Advocate: that is entirely up to him.

 

Alurra had her way of doing things - and a jolly good job she did. But the role that became vacant was not "Alurra", but Player Advocate. Alurra is still gracing us with her helpful and positive presence, so no need to find a replacement for her. The job of Player Advocate is always going to - and can only - be shaped by the person who occupies that position.

 

If the Development Team feels that the Player Advocate is under-performing, I'm sure they will discreetly let that individual know. And if the Player-Base thinks that the Advocate is doing a bad job, then we can all rise up in revolt and demand his or her head on a spike outside F7, as a warning to all other would-be pretenders to the post.

 

But until that happens, the current Player Advocate has to create their own identify and do the job in the way that seems most appropriate to them, and most compatible with their RL activities.

 

I think you have been excessive in your criticism of Cimbad. The role is primarily that of Relationship Management, not some go-between lackey at the beck-and-call of demanding players.

 

I wouldn't say that Cimbad is doing the job better or worse than Alurra: he's just doing it differently. He's still finding his feet, still figuring out how he wants to take the role forward. And if we want to make the role of Player Advocate purposeful - and attractive to anyone who might want to follow Cimbad into the role - we should be supportive and constructive, not critical and negative.

 

That is just common sense.

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thank you holyman..sorry for miswording in my last post...i will take a poll on the most common ideas...and to not get off topic but needs to be said,the reason i haven`t posted any dev updates is that there are none to report..they ask me what is the public issues are and i report..when they give me a reply i report to public...so far the devs have replied in the public fourms themselves i.e:in the dps topic,in the popmob topic....as far as this raid rotation,this is all up to the public,the devs do not have any control..so how we enforce any changes will have to be up to the public to enforce....that is why i would like to see a "poll" on the issues to see which direction the rotation is going...remember the whole rotation setup is based on a "gentelman`s agreement" and i like how we respect each other by discussing the issues...thank you guys for that,that`s why i think enb is the best online game :)

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All a poll would do is end the discussion

As Stoop said, you can look at the postings and tell how the 'votes' would go, and just how much of the server population reads the forums?

 

Cimbad, The Devs have made it plain that they will have nothing to do on this matter, it is a player matter, no need for the ADV to be involved. However as a player, your input on the matter is welcome.

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Wow the comment to Cimbad was a bit harsh just because he was happy to produce a poll for everyone, overstepping the mark how?

I have not read any post where he states anything will become law in fact he has just tried to find middle ground to see what suggestions can be put out here for ALL the players to vote upon including Static players, Builders inc players and Von corp empire players ( I am not going to keep calling you all the big three because that gives the impression of a position of control and you don't have that. No guild is more important than another).

Why are some of you scared to have a poll?

I don't understand why you can't simply just place your vote to the keep it as it is option if that's how you feel and if the majority of players feel that way then I am more than happy to toe the line and follow the majority opinion.

As it's been already pointed out the rotation is just a gentleman's agreement between us all and the fact everybody including the above mentioned 3 guilds have kept to it, is a good thing and shows we can be grown up about it without resorting to tit for tat and making players feel bad just because they have an opinion that differs from another.

So let's put our suggestions if you have them on here, place the popular ones in a poll and EVERYBODY place a vote in the option they feel is best for them and live with whatever the outcome is whether it was the one we personally chose or not.

Let's not also not forget the word trial that was placed SHOULD there be a need to alter the agreement, last time I checked that meant a temporary change to see how it ran, is there anything wrong with that?

So let's just keep things civil and adult and see what prevails.

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Pest

"Wow the comment to Cimbad was a bit harsh just because he was happy to produce a poll for everyone, overstepping the mark how?"

Cimbad's words were "good input so far i will let the thread run till the weekend then i will set up a vote on the most common suggestions"

 

  He took an administrative stance by setting a time for the discussion to end, at which time HE would put up a vote on the matter.

If a poll were all that was needed I could of done that at the start. However all there would of been were votes.  Id rather see discussion and opinions, find out why people feel as they do and then see if something would come out of the mix.

  I have no issues whatsoever on Cimbad's thoughts or opinions on the issue, I do however have an issue with him, or anyone, trying to end or direct the discussion providing the discussion is peaceful.

 

Pest

Why are some of you scared to have a poll?

 

Polls are quick to answer and lack information

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Pest

"I am not going to keep calling you all the big three because that gives the impression of a position of control and you don't have that. No guild is more important than another"

 

  Then why do these 3 guilds have raids reserved for themselves to do at their leisure?

Is it their size?

Their Right?

Or their inability to play well with others?

 

In a Poll I put up a week or so before this 'discussion', Flamingpanda posted a reply that is 180 from all the other replies and votes, I tried "politics" he went straight for the jugular....

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/11532-how-do-you-feel-about-the-community-of-eb/#entry94917

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Pest

"Wow the comment to Cimbad was a bit harsh just because he was happy to produce a poll for everyone, overstepping the mark how?"

Cimbad's words were "good input so far i will let the thread run till the weekend then i will set up a vote on the most common suggestions"

 

  He took an administrative stance by setting a time for the discussion to end, at which time HE would put up a vote on the matter.

If a poll were all that was needed I could of done that at the start. However all there would of been were votes.  Id rather see discussion and opinions, find out why people feel as they do and then see if something would come out of the mix.

  I have no issues whatsoever on Cimbad's thoughts or opinions on the issue, I do however have an issue with him, or anyone, trying to end or direct the discussion providing the discussion is peaceful.

 

Potentially being a bit over sensitive.

 

When I read Cimbad's words, I took it as him saying he'd wait until the weekend before creating the poll, to see if any additional options for that poll came out in the thread.

 

Perhaps it was his use of the phrase "...I will let..." that seemed a bit "Administrative"...

 

But personally, I was willing to let that go... Since I can't imagine anyone ever being able to permanently silence discussion on the Raid Rotation..! (And I didn't think that was Cimbad's intent...)

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I can see where you are coming from Gunney about the poll but IMOP I don't think it will end any discussions.

I hope this topic keeps being discussed either in this thread or new threads to come and any ongoing arrangements constantly reviewed in case somebody has a better idea to improve it.

You asked

Then why do these 3 guilds have raids reserved for themselves to do at their leisure? ( I guess at the time of the agreement they were the top 3 guilds)

Is it their size? ( perhaps then but what about now? )

Their Right? ( Def not and I never signed up to or agreed upon them having this slot unchallenged for the entire life of the game )

Or their inability to play well with others? ( No idea ask them )

I am still not calling them the big 3

Everything changes and evolves be it the game, player numbers and guilds therefore so should any arrangements etc this rotation has been the same for 3 years and  I think it's about time it was looked at again, there have been some great suggestions put forward lets give each one some consideration before we go down the old pair of comfy slippers routine and stagnate.

I have pretty much said everything I have wanted to say now on my thoughts without the risk of going in circles and losing track of the topic so I will shut up lol and let others voice their thoughts and see where the thread takes everybody.

Just a couple more things just to clarify to everyone, I have nothing at all against any of the three guilds that have a slot at the moment I have had plenty of help from players from all those guilds, I just think things have changed a lot since the rotation was started and it's time for it to be looked at to see if there is another possibly better answer now.

My suggestion  is make the raids closer to live and require a lot more groups to complete them hence getting rid of the need for any rotation as no one guild will have enough people to do them and all guilds will have the chance to attend. Just like BL has at the PRS raids leave yr guild tags at the door and work together.

 

Let's kill stuff with lvl 2 crossbows whoop whoop whoop :D

PESTILENNCE.

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Hi guy.
In on of her previous posts Alurra put it perfectly: Dont fix what is not broken. The thing I disagree on is: I see the Raid-Rotation as pretty unfair and it could use some fixing.
 
As a community, we are small. And skrinking in size actually. So it should be everybodies concern to keep as many of us as happy as possible.
Having that said, I agree, there has to be some sort of order/rotation/distribution name it as you like. 
 
However I dont thing we can call the big three rightly so anymore. I explicitly include BI here. We have been "guilty" of leaving the 2nd rated Raids (DT & RDbase) up for days at times simply we couldnt generate the interest to field a raidforce among those we had online or could reach via messenger service. From what I have seen VGE and Static suffere from the same lack of interest when I passed the raidtriggers on thier scheduel. "The Public" is the only raidforce in the rotation that does thier raids always within 24h. 
 
So yes, we, "the big three", are taking from the rest of the community by letting opportunities to raid go to waste or fall back on multiboxing to fill the ranks.
As for BI, we take people, friends. commarades into our raids from time to time. By far not as much as we should. I have little to no concept on how the other two handleing thier raidforce.
 
 
One thing is for certain: this is a can of worms. Redistributing raids according to playernumbers will produce people who see thier faction as loosing something that they consider thiers and there will be claws and fangs.
 
So there will be no solution however it is worded or put into action that will make everyone happy. I gave this some thought over the last couple month and yeah, not possible.
 
The only way I can think of is to ask GMs and/or DEVs to give the raiddata of lets say January 2016 to the playerbase as objectiv data. That way, we get an idea in which terms the current system can be described as fair or unfair. It should show how many multiboxers attend a raid and the time a raidtrigger is spawned and not taken down. Getting that data for everyone to look at will likely destroy any agrument against a change in the raidscheduel.

 

In case there will be a poll and an outcome that forces a change on the current system, I would suggest a fluent system of determining who should be on the rotation. Criteria could, for example be: Activity, Capability to complete the raid and willingness to add "out of guild" help to complete the raid if the own numbers dont add to raidstrength.

 

Cheers Hestha

Edited by Hargath
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Hi all,

 

I think I read back a few pages where  Alurra had said that I was one of the Reps for the Public. the answer for that is yes, I will need to step away from that roll at this time. and leave it at that. The public needs to meet and choose a replacement for me.

 

It would be nice if what Hargath mentioned in the last half of his post would happen.

 

I hope the Mini three will not take offence, if you need help filling the raids......ASK there is no reason for any raid to have multi boxers in it... none what so ever. If there is that to me is greedy.  Stop with the it is our raid time and we will  do with it as we see fit.

 

I remember well the hard time at the time (Big three) gave Epic Gamers, if you start the raid and fail it is a waited raid... Not doing it is the same thing...ASK for Help... if you shout it we will come.

 

For me Multi boxing is the worst thing for the DT /Red Base / GoBB / Troller.

 

Just my thoughts.

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