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Gunney

Raid Rotation Discussion Time For A Change?

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Problem with the poll. It would really only be the voices that have been heard here.

I think that maxes out at 10 people.

Really for the rotation or any social agreement to change, it's going to take a meeting of all the leadership, and those wanting into positions to make that choice.

And let's be fair, that meeting isn't going to be on the forum, it'll be on a voice chat if some kind.

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Guilds have an advantage if there was to be a poll,  they can rally members via "Message of the day" or their forums and vote that way. The 'Loose" group of non guilded or small guilds do not have that option

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That is why I have basically given up on the topic as a whole.  We can debate all we want here, but the fact is, only a couple from the guilds that have a slot already and a few from public even been on this topic on the forums.  I am glad that there is a discussion, but reality is, nothing will be fixed due to a poll, or anything on this thread.  If there was, then I am sure everyone and their brother would come and have something to say.  The only action that has taken place on this thread so far was Syber stepping down from representing the public part of the rotation.

 

The Raids will not go to trigger and multiboxing cannot be monitored, so what bothers everyone else is dead conversation imho.

 

I am all about improvement, but seems like on here at least, Gunney, Holy, and myself are the only ones that seem to see an issue with the rotation.  We can and have brainstormed many ideas, met with "Leave it as it is", so I guess I am done trying.  Ironically, I raid less than most on the server, but I do see an issue with the raid system.  So it affects me less than most.

 

In ideal world, yes, a TS meeting of the masses would be AMAZING, but that is almost comical to think of as well as being a real option that would get any real results.

 

 

 

Just a side note to the whole thing....  An example of how the server should actually be....last night, only like 6 people in TS when I got on last night, IN OUR GUILD channel....yet, there were 3 of them from another "competing Guild", actually they were from one of the "BIG THREE"...you know what, we do that more often than not, we actually enjoy their company, and yes, they are very helpful as well for ingame things.  There have even been NUMEROUS GR and FB with them.  They understand us, we understand them....I really do wish that there were more interaction in this fashion, because, the reality is, our game is really small in the scope of it, we talk in percentages, and act like we are using big numbers, but anyone can look at Net-7 stats of how many are online at any given time.  Even if you dont look at the numbers knowing that those numbers cant tell how many are multiboxing, those numbers are really small.  We should be able to literally get meetings together, lobby opinions and find the best solutions for Community driven content that the Devs will not interact with.

 

Happy Hunting...

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Gunney thank you for the explanation. I'm not a programmer but i know enough to find that the player wipe aspect of a timer change is highly improbable.

We have seen with a simple server patch/restart alterations to specific mobs/mini bosses timers with no wipe and i fail to see how raid triggers could be much different in that regard.

 

Honestly even if parts of the server were recompiled with the new time adjustments that wouldn't change the way the DB, that holds all the player/game info, is read. Even new Skills were added without sacrificing the player base. Just really curious.

 

@Syber

What in Valen's name are you talking about. :P  Best Scifi show ever!

Edited by Efialtis

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I am all about improvement, but seems like on here at least, Gunney, Holy, and myself are the only ones that seem to see an issue with the rotation.  We can and have brainstormed many ideas, met with "Leave it as it is", so I guess I am done trying.  Ironically, I raid less than most on the server, but I do see an issue with the raid system.  So it affects me less than most.

 

In ideal world, yes, a TS meeting of the masses would be AMAZING, but that is almost comical to think of as well as being a real option that would get any real results.

To be fair to those advocating the "Leave It Be" approach Murf: you only need to spend a while reviewing many of the posts related to the Raid Rotation in this area of the Forum to see how contentious it has been in the past.

 

I would imagine that there is a strong desire to avoid re-opening old wounds and returning to the Bad Old Days of contention, negativity and disharmony.

 

But I don't think that translates as a point-blank refusal to consider anything that might alter, diminish or threaten anyone's (or any Guild's) privileged status as a permanent Raid Rotation member.

 

I read it more as an expressed desire to avoid rocking a boat that has taken a while to settle. And unless or until a counter-proposal has been developed and put forward: much better to leave things as they are.

 

I actually agree with that.

 

I'm definitely up for brain-storming and idea development (in case you hadn't noticed...  ;) )... But I'm quite open to the possibility that after all the words in this thread, it may just conclude with the understanding that the current system is the least imperfect and most practical state of affairs.

 

I'm not sure we're at that point yet though.

 

If we're going to ask other players to consider an alternative to the existing system (that has proved... satisfactory and stable for most), then it needs to be thoroughly thought through and sanity checked.

 

Considering how that proposal might be advertised and opened up to a wider discussion (not just those who visit this forum) is as much a part of any change that might take place, as developing the actual details of any alternative arrangement might be.

 

I *DO* think it is incumbent upon the leaders of the three guilds who are currently in the Rotation to contribute to this thread; and with more than just a "Leave it be" comment.

 

That is exactly what Efialtis is doing on behalf of V.G.E., and I think it would be really good to get some substantial input from the leadership of Static and B.I.

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Yeah. Polls will not get anything done. If there is a poll, it should likely be about who will replace Syberfly as spokesperson for the public. 

 

Once that is cleared up, approach have the newly elected approach the guildleader of the major parties involved here and call for a meeting to discuss this issue on teamspeak.

 

To clear some things up about my previous post:

 

1. I understand that the PRS is BLs baby. What I am suggesting is a short annoncement maybe a day or so before he has time to run a PRS so people know when the Raids in there will be available. People in the euro or western timezone can spread the word and perpare. Also people from EST will know about it and can decide to help make it happen.

 

2. About the data of the raidslot holders performance in the past 3 month. I see there is concern on the first glance that DEVs will refuse based on thier commitment not to parttake in the serverpolitics etc.

But once you think about it, it is not an issue. Its just a set of names and numbers which is truely objectiv and cant be questioned. Whatever conclusion we all draw out of it, is up to the community alone and doesnt require any DEV to hold our collectiv hand or play favours towards any of the involved parties. And I think if any of the Big Three would be opposed to be under the lookingglass in this manner, I would totally respect that. It would be a conclusion in itself tho.

 

Murf, Holyman and Gunneey. Maybe you 3 should get your heads together, collect some more input from the public players on a position you guys feel the new spokesperson should represent on your behalf. 

 

Cheers Hestha

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2. About the data of the raidslot holders performance in the past 3 month. I see there is concern on the first glance that DEVs will refuse based on thier commitment not to parttake in the serverpolitics etc.

But once you think about it, it is not an issue. Its just a set of names and numbers which is truely objectiv and cant be questioned. Whatever conclusion we all draw out of it, is up to the community alone and doesnt require any DEV to hold our collectiv hand or play favours towards any of the involved parties. And I think if any of the Big Three would be opposed to be under the lookingglass in this manner, I would totally respect that. It would be a conclusion in itself tho.

 

I wonder if it could be something as simple as ordering the Guilds on the Net-7 Portal Stats page in the order of most active..?

 

I'm assuming it is currently listed in the order that the Guilds were created... Since there's a "Holy Independent" Guild I created back in 2012, pre-wipe, listed near the top of the current list... And I *KNOW* that's defunct!

 

With regards a Public Spokesperson...

 

I'm not sure what the functional requirements of that role would be..?

 

When an agreement on the Rotation is reached (the current status quo, or any modifications), then everything is settled. The Rotation should run on auto-pilot.

 

That's one of the major plus-points in favour of keeping the existing Rotation: it does seem to be very low maintenance..!

 

Not sure what value a "Public Spokesperson" would add..? I suppose it depends on what the leaders of the 3 Guilds in the Rotation discuss, but it doesn't seem like there is much to discuss under current arrangements... And if a new arrangement is implemented, it will really need to be equally low maintenance if it is to be a justified alteration.

 

H.

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Also:

 

I put Sirius Cybernetics and Epic Gamers into the six-week rotation template, and it came out like this:

 

 

                                Wk1                  Wk2                Wk3               Wk4             Wk5                Wk6

 

'Troller                     Static                 EG                 BI                   SCC             Public              VGE

DT                           VGE                  SCC               Public             Static            EG                  BI

RD Base                  BI                      Static             EG                  VGE             SCC                Public

GoBB                       Public                VGE               SCC               BI                 Static              EG

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This has now come full circle for me.  My original post stated what I believed to be the root cause of the issue.  It is not the rotation, or even who is in the rotation.  It did open the “can of worms” that we are now stabbing at everything but the one issue that I was looking to get resolved.  The fact is, that the rotation day was moved to that “Guilds could have the weekend to do raids” which is fine, I can understand how the change day being in the middle of the weekend would make the rotation out of whack on a weekly basis.  The issue is well explained in this fashion though.  On a raid that is on a 48 timer, the exiting Guild kills the raid 30 minutes before the rotation timer goes off, EVERY SINGLE week, either means, they seriously only game on Mondays, or they seriously are just being jerks.

 

This is why I stated the initial resolution was to open it up at Noon on Saturday for a FFA.  This only compresses the amount of times a rotation can kill a spawn, and yes, they can still be spiteful if that was the intent and kill the spawn at 11:30am Saturday morning(BUT for the next week rotation, the Raid would stand a better chance of being up on Monday for the incoming rotation).  This doesn’t hurt anyone’s feelings about who should be in rotation or even questioning Multiboxing, which we have determined more than once that triggers and boxing are just facts of life that cannot be done with the current server.  I know that when people see “FFA” they picture chaos and whatnot, but reality is, most of the raids will be down at 12 noon, and all of them would have at least one chance at being taken down over the weekend.  This could and would cause more people to log in on the weekends.  There are a lot of players, in rotation of the raids that only log in for a raid anymore, they have nothing else they really want to do, and they log out right afterwards.  This will spark interest.  We, as a community are older, even if we don’t want to believe it or not, but with the simple rule of “Don’t KS a raid if it started” is lived by, just like the gentleman’s agreement on current rotation, then there will be parties that form up, from TS convo’s and/or General Chat, to take these down on the weekends.

 

Like I said earlier, based on what I have seen in this thread, nothing will happen anyways.  Again I say, I don’t want chaos on the server.  There are limitations on what can change, and anything really more than what is listed above would appear to be calling one person or another, one guild or another, out as being less than, or questioned why and how they are where they are.  The system above would basically have no effect on any of the “Big Three” OR “Public) if they are taking their Raids down in a timely fashion anyway.  To argue this point would mean that you don’t take it down as often as it could, or are just plain greedy.

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Holyman

 With regards a Public Spokesperson...

 

I'm not sure what the functional requirements of that role would be..?

 

 

The Public spokesman would fill the role of "guild leader" for discussions when an issue arises and would speak on behalf of the public group.

As I recall there were 3 who accepted the role,  Syber, CIA(MIA) and Id have to check on the other

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The Public spokesman would fill the role of "guild leader" for discussions when an issue arises and would speak on behalf of the public group.

As I recall there were 3 who accepted the role,  Syber, CIA(MIA) and Id have to check on the other

 

Leader of the "Everyone-Not-In-Static-BI-or-VGE" Guild..?

 

I'm in!!

 

Do I get my own Space Station..?

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i agree abysail,i think that the big 3 guild leaders and the other guild leaders should get together on teamspeak on a schedule day and time and discuss the raid rotation issues...i know alot of players dont have mic`s but they can listen and type their responses in the chat window...since gunney is the topic leader i feel he should organize this,and i also feel that the raid rotation need some sort of written ground rules posted as a topic that i can pin and lock after you guys have that meeting...but like flamingpanda posted it`s a free game and anyone can do a raid any time and only get fussed at thru the chat in the game,so its only a matter of time until the other guilds and public players start doing raids on their own time..so please guys try to wrap this discussion up and set some ground rules that every one can agree to before "all hell breaks lose".... 

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*snip* it`s a free game and anyone can do a raid any time and only get fussed at thru the chat in the game,so its only a matter of time until the other guilds and public players start doing raids on their own time..so please guys try to wrap this discussion up and set some ground rules that every one can agree to before "all hell breaks lose".... 

You should clarify what exactly it is you mean by this statement Cimbad, because it sounds as if you know something that nobody in this thread knows about ...

 

I suspect if there is a 'plan' in place by any group of players to disrupt the entire server that it will be met with some really bad behaviours from anyone else that doesn't follow that same line of thinking ....

 

And with that kind of behaviour, the only thing that will come of it would be the effective removal of all raids, as was stated by the DEV team when the last "all hell broke loose"....

 

There was a 'Play nice, or we'll take the toys away' air about what they told us and I am pretty damned sure they could care less if we, the players, are able to raid or not.

 

It won't effect them one iota.

 

The original point of this thread was to ask about options and kick around ideas. With your statement, you are pushing a change it, or else type atmosphere.

 

*edited to add* And there is already a Raid Discussion topic pinned and located here https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/9810-guidelines-for-public-raids/

 

As for raid rules within Static? If you take a spot in a public raid, you are expected to leave said spot if a public player requests to join and there is no room. You are expected to excuse yourself from the loot distribution because your guild has a week and if you want to gather loot, you should raid within your guild to do so. It is unfair to take potential items from a 'public' player who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity and/or access to said loot. Of course, like VGE, you are either all in, or all out. The choice is completely yours, however if you are found to be in violation of said rules, you will be warned and then removed. Those are the basic rules that all Static players abide by. If you know of violations then they should be reported to an officer of Static, who are easily and readily located in any player channel on the server and the issue will be resolved.

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Only thing I read in Cimbad's post was to say the avenue for a meeting should be on TS, outside the leaders going to BL's house for drinks and sit at a round table to discuss raid options, TS seems to be the only logical solution.  I also think that Cimbad is keeping the peace on this thread nicely, positive reenforcment of suggestions, bring issue to closure and then lock the thread.  When sounds pretty clear to me.  

 

If his point of "all hell breaks loose" comment is being read as he knows something that others dont, that is simply not true.  Obviously there is grumblings in TS, in advocate channel, raid channel and guild channels or this topic would never been started.  Again, he is pointing out the obvious.

 

I have thought during the time of all the posts, that my money bets that if the Devs released the Christmas content, this topic would fade some, but that hasnt happened either.  If there is a rebellion, I will not be a part of it, but I would be on the sidelines with Cimbad saying "I told you so...."

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ok here we go again..yes i do know something you dont know about alurra,after reading,talking and receiving many personal emails about this topic the players would like to see some change to the raid rotation before "all hell breaks lose" by the players going out and doing the raids they want..let`s please try to resolve the raid rotation situation before "all hell breaks lose"....i pray you guys will come to some comprise...sooon...i love this game and all the players in it...im sorry if i come across as harsh but i am a person who is "to the point"....so lets stay on topic and try to get the raid rotation back to a peaceful and productive discussion....thank you guys 

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The current Player Agreement with regards four of the spawned Raids in the Emulator is not perfect.

 

But it *IS* an agreement.

 

Any agreement is preferable to disagreement. Especially in a Player Community as small as ours, that is supported by an all-volunteer corps of Developers.

 

Unless a different proposal is developed and agreed by the Player Community to be an improvement on the existing agreement: the existing agreement *HAS* to stand.

 

Because whilst some players may feel they are losing out because of the existing agreement, if it is replaced by disagreement, then the entire Player Community will lose out.

 

Even if the Development Team do not respond to fractious and negative behaviour by “taking the toys away”: our Community is too small and intimate to withstand more than the unavoidable, trace amounts of negativity and hostility.

 

So it isn’t a question of holding a poll, or a Teamspeak Summit, or a Guild Leadership Council *WHEN* but *IF* an alternative agreement is reached or proposed.

 

I am a negotiator, arbitrator and mediator by profession, inclination and experience. I am enjoying my participation in this thread because it is Christmas, and most of the people I am paid to negotiate and mediate with are on leave! Weaving and skipping my way around the opinions, desires and voices in this thread is something I can do where firing up the Game Client would be frowned upon… Either by my colleagues that are still in the office, or by my partner when I’m supposed to be “Working From Home”..!

 

So I’m in no rush to conclude anything here (in case you hadn’t noticed…).

 

As far as I’m concerned, I’ll get much more satisfaction if I’m able to complete the “Raid” that is this thread and topic, than I will from surviving any repeatable encounter in DT, BBW, Paramis or AP!

 

Right then… Time to buff up!

 

Access to and successful completion of any of the four time-spawned raids in the EnB Emulator rewards participating players with “End Game” equipment that is superior to anything else available in-Game.

 

Consequently, the ability to successfully participate in Raid Encounters is an aspiration of many (though by no means all) players.

 

Because of the much smaller player base in the Emulator compared to the “Live” Game (and associated dynamic differences), it is fairly easy for a player to equip themselves with the knowledge and their characters with the equipment necessary to successfully complete a Raid.

 

However, due to limitations on the ability of the Development Team to easily alter the rate at which these four Raids respawn, allocation of the opportunity to engage in these Raids has been - and continues to be - a contentious issue.

 

As a result of past disagreements, an agreement was reached by the leaders of the larger player guilds in the Game to organise a rotation system that allocated the opportunity to engage in the key Raids.

 

Following that agreement and initial implementation, the Rotation System was subsequently modified to incorporate a fourth raid (in the newly-opened DT Sector), and a fourth “seat” in the Allocation Rotation to “The Public” (i.e. Players who are not members of the three senior guilds).

 

This agreement has been generally regarded as satisfactory, and has kept disagreements about opportunities to Raid to a minimum.

 

Periodically, the validity and effectiveness of the current Raid Rotation Agreement is questioned by Players, in-Game and on this Forum.

 

How’s that for a synopsis..?!

 

Observations then:

 

“You can’t please all of the people, all of the time.” &c.

 

Any alteration to the Raid Rotation Agreement would mean that some parties will gain increased rights to Raid, whilst other parties will see their rights to Raid decrease.

 

It can be generally (though not definitely) assumed that those parties seeking increased Raid Rights will vote in favour of any alteration that delivers that increase; and those parties that are reluctant to see their existing Raid Rights diminished, will vote against any alteration to the existing Agreement.

 

The Development Team have consistently communicated that they are not willing to arbitrate in Community disputes.

 

Notwithstanding the Player Community dissolving into schism and negativity, the Emulator is not going anywhere. The four Raids in the Rotation will remain available on a limited basis for the foreseeable future. Some players will continue to feel that they are not well served by the current Rotation Agreement; others will feel that they are very satisfied with the status quo; and many more players will remain sublimely indifferent to (or even completely oblivious about) the Raid Rotation Agreement.

 

There seems to be a 3-6 month cycle where the Raid Rotation Agreement is revisited/reviewed. Players have their say, make their suggestions, propose modifications… And any adjustments are incorporated, or not, depending upon the general consensus.

 

Any discussion or debate around the Raid Rotation Agreement has to remain positive and constructive, or the outcome of those discussions and debates will not be positive or constructive.

 

There is no need to place an arbitrary date for conclusion on discussions about the Raid Rotation Agreement. All the while discussions continue, the existing Agreement remains in force. Only when and if general agreement is reached on an alternative, will substitution take place.

 

Trying to shut down or limit discussion on revisions and developments to the Raid Rotation is counter-productive. If any player or players feel that the current Raid Rotation Agreement unfairly disadvantages them: being told to keep quiet about those feelings will only increase the sense of being treated unfairly.

 

Equally: using discussions about the Raid Rotation Agreement to conduct personal attacks, or to accuse other parties to those discussions of acting in bad faith or protecting self-interest, is also not going to be constructive or productive.

 

The existing Raid Rotation Agreement is not perfect.

 

But none of us are individually able to come up with a less imperfect alternative.

 

Any improvements that may be made to the Raid Rotation Agreement can only come from us working collectively and constructively.

 

I prefer playing the EnB Emulator to any other MMORPG, primarily because it is Player v. Environment, and not Player v. Player.

 

The “Environment” we are all looking at right now, is one where access to these four time-spawned raids is limited, and very difficult for the Development Team to change.

 

If we are going to overcome these “Environmental” constraints, we are going to have to work together, not against each other.

 

I think it is definitely worth keeping that in mind.

 

And BTW:

 

Merry Christmas EnB!

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I say leave it as it is for a simple reason: it keeps order.

 

I've had two long time jobs in my lifetime, that of engineer (RCA/GE Aerospace/Martin Marietta/Lockheed Martin) and currently, high school, then college professor. I have seen, from the research lab to the classroom, what happens when schedules, timetables, projects, and basic rules are tossed aside. People, and I mean humans in general, work better within a structured framework. That is why bureaucracies, like them or not, are in place. They work. Maybe not as fast or efficiently as some would like, but in the absence of a better system, they are the best way of getting things done that groups of people have. Sociologists and psychologists know what happens when the "system" breaks down. If something is in place and it works, it should take an abnormal event or circumstances to impose changes. Is an open trigger such an event?

 

I understand where Gunney is coming from. It is not always easy to get into a raid, and yes, on occasion a trigger is left floating around, waiting to die. It can be frustrating to those who want a chance at certain loot items. Yet, the system has worked to keep the peace. No one kills triggers, jumps spots, we are generally nice to one another, and have learned to co-exist in relative peace. Sure, I'd like to suck up an open trigger....lord knows that my luck with rolls is a running joke on TS...I'll probably get a spitter, CLP or flinger when I turn 80...but in the end, if I don't get those things, so be it. Is it worth me moving a trigger spawn time for a little better chance at loot? No. Maybe for others it is, though I don't believe for a second that anyone playing actually thinks like that. People aren't that selfish on the EMU (exceptions noted elsewhere in the thread, outside of raids).

 

If anything, one's ire should be directed at those players who think they "own" certain aforementioned spawns. Do I think that could happen with some of the raids? Absolutely...and the proof is that is already happens. I'm sure people know what spawns I'm talking about.

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Leader of the "Everyone-Not-In-Static-BI-or-VGE" Guild..?

 

I'm in!!

 

Do I get my own Space Station..?

Not right off. You do get a key to the executive bathroom and your own coffee mug. :)

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ok here we go again..yes i do know something you dont know about alurra,after reading,talking and receiving many personal emails about this topic the players would like to see some change to the raid rotation before "all hell breaks lose" by the players going out and doing the raids they want..let`s please try to resolve the raid rotation situation before "all hell breaks lose"....i pray you guys will come to some comprise...sooon...i love this game and all the players in it...im sorry if i come across as harsh but i am a person who is "to the point"....so lets stay on topic and try to get the raid rotation back to a peaceful and productive discussion....thank you guys 

Do not give me the "here we go again" BS, Cimbad. You stated in your previous post effectively saying "Shit or get off the pot" ... As far as I was concernced, since I am NOT in your damned email or private conversations, that statement sounded like an ultimatum. I have YET to see IN THIS THREAD any quantification to this entire issue, save from 2/3 players, the remaining state "leave it alone".

 

So. If there are more issues at hand, then those who have issues should be invited into THIS THREAD to speak about what they would like to see/do or have changed, so their concerns can be addressed. Since YOU are the advocate and have the ears of these folks, why don't YOU encourage them to give ideas and opinions that MIGHT get things kicked into the direction you would like to see it go...

 

Otherwise, it gives the appearance of "all these concerns" that nobody really wants to address but wants to fuss about occasionally.

 

If this comes across as harsh, good dammit, it was meant to be. Stop making assumptions that everyone that is trying to hear concerns knows what everyone else is saying. Sometimes you need to speak the hell up to be heard.

 

Have a Merry Christmas, Cimbad, and everyone else.

 

Fly Safe

 

-Alurra

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Phorlaug

Not right off. You do get a key to the executive bathroom and your own coffee mug.

 

Hmmmm  Syber movin out and a coffee cup becomes available........

Ya better wash that thing, last I herd it was 6 months ago he let his wife wash it, darn squids and their superstitions....

 

 

 

 

It was my hope things would go smoothly, but it seems finger pointing is creeping its way in more and more.

It would probably be best for a Mod to lock this thing up for awhile. Let everyone chew on the thoughts brought up and revisit the ideas at a later date.

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Correction Gunney, she gets a chance to wash it once a year, January 1st, if she forgets to wash it , it goes another year with all it's goodness of Coffee crust and Grail water.

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hold the phone alurra..you have my email and you should be discussing you issues with me there not in gunney`s post....i understand that i come across a bit "smug" but please understand that i was just making a point about the worst case situtation with the players just going and doing raids without being in a rotation,then there would be arguing in the game and the new players see it and would leave and we would lose our playerbase...i dont want that to happen....please stay on topic and not "cuss" me out...this is gunneys post and im making sure that it is peaceful....

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Merry Christmas, everyone.

 

This is what I can see, thus far in this thread ...

 

2 want to see absolute change

10 want to leave it alone

3 give thoughts/ideas/opinions with no expectations (appear to be change it or don't, whatever)

2 just pop in to essentially say hello.

 

Now. If there are far more folks that want to see a change, and they are speaking to you privately, should we all put on our psychic hats so we know there is a bigger outcry for that change?

 

Fly Safe

 

-Alurra

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Don't count me in absolute change, you skipped where I know that there won't be any changes, I'm ok staying a lesser than

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