Specops Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 I began playing on the emulator a few weeks ago (I previously played in live) and noticed that no one ever wanted to charge me anything for getting player made gear (provided the mats of course). I understand that for high level builders, a tip for low level gear is basically chump change, but is it good for the game that players can expect to buy comps and get it thrown together at 200% quality without it really costing the player more than buying vendor made items (even less if the comps cost less than the item?). Maybe its just me, but knowing that stuff short of high level gear someone will make for me for free, even if its a drop only item they have analyzed, makes the game less enjoyable, than if I had to pay for the superior performance. Food for thought as the server gets wiped and all the builders have to start from a clean slate. P.S. the same goes for wormholes. If you are not a JE than there should be some downside to being able to go from Carp to VT at the drop of a hat. JE's should consider charging for their services. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skitszo Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 higher level stuff costs 1 mill per button push and some are spoiled and expect things free...its bad manners to expect it. but if the builder offers why is that bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overtkill Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 The term in our Universe is "Vadenomics." Generous builders like V are a huge asset to our little universe. The key rule of thumb has usually come down to this: Most builders will build for free, but do accept tips. If you value their time and effort in building for you, then tipping them generously is the way to go about it. Its not simply a matter of whether or not its good for the game. This emulator is but a shadow of the original game. Try and remember that with a smaller player base, the generosity of these builders is vital and in the best interest of everyone. I realize the credit situation might be changing in result of the wipe. But I would bet that later on, once these builders get caught up again, this will (and should) likely be the case once again. I have never been, and never will be a builder with the scope of Vaden and the others, but I do know that my builds for others will still be free of charge to anyone. I would suggest that others follow V's example and toss out the notion of charging people for simple builds, especially if its within your means. If you are broke as a builder, then the choice is yours. But I suspect that players will find ways to regain fortune and use it to serve our community. Thanks for reading... -Overt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specops Posted November 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Mostly because it makes it too easy to get. I reached up to level 6 gear on my char before the Live wipe (though some stuff was from guildys which doesn't count), and while I appreciated the free builds, it made it far too easy and cheap to get and therefore not challening. I think it would add to the game if you really had to think about how you are going to pay for or come across your lower and mid level gear. Getting my hands on it so effortlessly just reinforced the notion that the lower and middle levels are just part of the grind on the way to end game content rather than enjoyable in and of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harros Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 When builders were sitting at hundreds of millions of credits, the lost money from manufacturing was a drop in the hat. I wouldn't expect this behavior to continue with the impending wipe. I think most builders will be looking for some sort of compensation until credits are worthless again. The reason was not enough credit sinks to match the faucets. Diablo 2 gold used to be worth something when trading. After enough time, gold was so inflated that players moved away from it and began a barter only system with loot drops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkkHero Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 Credits, Recipes are going to be starting fresh. Therefore builders will most likely no longer be building for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ego Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 I will still be bartering my mined gasses for V and 'Goo to 'pay' for the items they build for me so in a way I'm paying them with my time to mine, all good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanig[IS] Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 Vaden is a good dude, however I have always felt the freebies are what kill the game economy. There is no market for crafting which leads to no market for resources which leads to lost content and worthless credits. Not to mention the scramble to get every new map all of the time. The major builders being able to do anything all of the time for free and basically monopolizing the market, is a detriment. Now dont get me wrong, when we were in ST, Alpha, and Beta there was no worry because eventually all of that stuff was intended to go poof. I am optimistic that the balance changes made to drops and raids will be sufficient to stifle the freestuff mentality at endgame. Early and midgame? Harder to fix because its much cheaper and easier to resource hoard for. With the wipe and reset, I am confident the changes will keep the economy in a state where Market may actually be useful again, and trading will involve more than just logging in a mule and giving away uber item X for basically nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattsacre Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 Welllllll if you found it to easy and it took the fun out of the game having them build you 200% for nothing....that it made it too easy, you know there is a way you can "self correct" that. Simply use only vendor bought gear or looted only gear that you loot. Then it would be at or near 100% with all its inferiority built in that you desire. And since nobody is giving it to you "free" you are buying it at inflated infinicorp rates...well that will at least self correct YOUR economy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specops Posted November 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 [quote name='Stanig' timestamp='1352527339' post='65487'] Vaden is a good dude, however I have always felt the freebies are what kill the game economy. There is no market for crafting which leads to no market for resources which leads to lost content and worthless credits. Not to mention the scramble to get every new map all of the time. The major builders being able to do anything all of the time for free and basically monopolizing the market, is a detriment. Now dont get me wrong, when we were in ST, Alpha, and Beta there was no worry because eventually all of that stuff was intended to go poof. I am optimistic that the balance changes made to drops and raids will be sufficient to stifle the freestuff mentality at endgame. Early and midgame? Harder to fix because its much cheaper and easier to resource hoard for. With the wipe and reset, I am confident the changes will keep the economy in a state where Market may actually be useful again, and trading will involve more than just logging in a mule and giving away uber item X for basically nothing. [/quote] This I agree with. I have been playing for a few weeks and hardly saw any player economy to speak of. Too much stuff is given away for free. Stuff is manufactured for free, no one charges for wormholes, no one makes you pay for a call forward, people give away ores if someone needs it, old gear that is no longer used is happily given for nothing in return, etc, etc. I reached level 91 and had not paid one single credit to a player for any gear (I had L5/L6 gear), any wormholes (I had taken at least a couple dozen), or a call forward (I had two). In response to Overtkill, I agree that EnB is lucky to have someone like Vaden who is dedicated to getting prints and regularly makes himself available to the player community. But I think for the health of the game economy, everyone would get more out of being a consumer or a supplier of player made goods and services if it wasn't given away for free to such an extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specops Posted November 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1352528624' post='65488'] Welllllll if you found it to easy and it took the fun out of the game having them build you 200% for nothing....that it made it too easy, you know there is a way you can "self correct" that. Simply use only vendor bought gear or looted only gear that you loot. Then it would be at or near 100% with all its inferiority built in that you desire. And since nobody is giving it to you "free" you are buying it at inflated infinicorp rates...well that will at least self correct YOUR economy [/quote] "self correct" wouldn't be the same because I, and others, would have to voluntarily restrain ourselves. I want to give it all I got, I just don't want the 'rules' to be such that it is so easy. Edited November 10, 2012 by Specops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lot Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 Cutting component drop rates, removing all the refined ores out of hulks - two examples that would help the "economy". The economy is not really about how many credits players have in their wallets it is about balance between professions and the supply of goods. I picked those two examples to highlight a specific balance problem for the mining profession. Who needs to buy ores from a miner when components that are abundantly available can be broken down into refined ores and reused? At least using vendor components there is a cost that needs to be weighed against ores sold by a miner. Hulk fields are another problem example. DigiApogee stuff has no value on the market as it is so common and abundant. Those items are just a steady and easy credit stream for miners and also goes some way to discouraging miners to sell ores for credit income instead. The economy hurts low level players right now, if they need a tow and equipment needs repaired they soon lose all their credits on repairs! In time, in a few weeks, everyone will be rich again and they will start twinking credits to their low level alternate characters and the problem will be forgotten. Except new players will still be getting hurt by the repair fees and may not be able to afford player made stuff. Really bad for new players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canman Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 The economy will never be like it was in live!! To spend so much time and effort to try and get that way is a complete waste. The player base is just to small here and I dont beleive it will ever be enough on to make it work. Yes it will for a short time after this wipe but just wait and see in 3 to 6 months. The true currency of the game is items that are rare and tradeable. If more and more credit sinks are added all it will do is kill the player base. The people in charge will never listen to anyone else have to say so do as you wish. Infact the FREESTUFF attitude is alive and well aready. In the short time I have played I have seen tons giving away. All this will do is cause fewer builders at first till everyone funnels most of the items to each guilds main builders. The end-game loot will also never be sold for credits. Just another misguided hopeful thinking here. At best rare items will be traded for rare items. Want to know what the player base wants??? I will tell you simply. CONTENT!! More of it!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Canman pretty much nailed it. Most of the game is about what to do next, which means content. It's good to see more content than before, looking forward to things when my toons are bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specops Posted November 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1352598957' post='65638'] Canman pretty much nailed it. Most of the game is about what to do next, which means content. It's good to see more content than before, looking forward to things when my toons are bigger. [/quote] This is exactly my point. My suggestion is not whether items/services are being traded for credits or other items, but when there is no 'trade' to speak of and instead services are given away for free. I think it handicaps content in the game if it is not viable for someone to be a builder as a profession (i.e. content) because there is a norm of people getting their stuff for free. It removes content from the game if you are not confronted with the challenge of where your next set of gear is going to come from, because you are effectively given it for free. With my initial post I am not talking about an economy of credits vs. bartering. I also don't quite understand how an unusually small player base figures into this. Having a small player base would mean it is harder to find people to build stuff for you because there are less people around. But thanks to the services of players like Vaden, we don't have this problem because they are often online and glad to make stuff for people. I thinks to a large measure because of dedicated builders like him, we don't feel the effects of there being a small player base. I don't follow how items/services being given away for nothing factors one way or another into a small player base. Edited November 11, 2012 by Specops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taallonn Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 This is really an odd topic here. Most games i have played, including this one, players in guilds typically make gear for others in the guild at no cost or reimbursement for the build cost only as they figured charging hundreds of thousands of credits to press a button one time was a bit silly....Small player base doesn't really matter, if you know where to get the better drops then its a matter of farming a spot til you get the print for yourself, an alt, or a guildmate. I'm not understanding why you have an issue with players wanting to work for tips....This shows that it is not a greedy community and one that wants to be helpful to those that need the help through better gear. This practice does not take away content as building leveling gear is not content. Most of it can be bought from a vendor and rebuilt (there are exceptions, but most leveling gear is only useful for a week or less). The recipes obtained through the grinds, yeah that i can understand if someone wanted to charge due to the amount of time invested to get those patterns, then again that would be totally up to the builder to decide if they wanted to charge for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specops Posted November 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 [quote name='Taallonn' timestamp='1352607469' post='65672'] This is really an odd topic here. Most games i have played, including this one, players in guilds typically make gear for others in the guild at no cost or reimbursement for the build cost only as they figured charging hundreds of thousands of credits to press a button one time was a bit silly....Small player base doesn't really matter, if you know where to get the better drops then its a matter of farming a spot til you get the print for yourself, an alt, or a guildmate. I'm not understanding why you have an issue with players wanting to work for tips....This shows that it is not a greedy community and one that wants to be helpful to those that need the help through better gear. This practice does not take away content as building leveling gear is not content. Most of it can be bought from a vendor and rebuilt (there are exceptions, but most leveling gear is only useful for a week or less). The recipes obtained through the grinds, yeah that i can understand if someone wanted to charge due to the amount of time invested to get those patterns, then again that would be totally up to the builder to decide if they wanted to charge for that. [/quote] I do think your own guild is different, and agree there is nothing wrong with your own guild not charging you. I do not also think there is anything wrong for working with tips, my concern is that builders do not work for a set price or tips, and in fact often refuse tips even when offered. I do not think it is a good thing that the community is not greedy. Greed is good because it makes the game more interesting. If older players could somehow bestow L150 on new players and get them the best gear on day one, EnB would get very old very fast. Similarly, its part of the MMORPG experience that you need to work at getting better gear. Do the extent this element is taken out of EnB because of the good nature of the game's players, I would say this is not ultimately a good thing. On the flip side of this, building is something a decent number of people in any MMORPG like to do. To the extent players are discouraged from this because all the established builders give out most things for free, this again takes away from the ultimate game experience, good intentions notwithstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmo3 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 There is an upside to building for free. I will use myself as an example knowing others do the same thing. I feed maps, ores, and comps to the builders plus tips on builds. The builders also get stuff given to them when they ask because they are good dudes and people don't mind helping them. People like Vaden also provide a great service to the game. Not many people are content hanging around a base and building for people. That is what he enjoys doing in the game. I see nothing wrong with it and would rather it be that way as some of the builders in live. I knew a couple of builders in live that would keep any high end builds like archos at 200% and give these to guildies only giving the lower ones to those other people. Greed was bad in live, we have a small, helpful community. I would hate to see that change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorlaug[IS] Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 The Economy Is 1/2 of the game. If you build and give stuff away you take away the reasons why we hunt, mine, build, quest, run trade, do missions and Jobs. Therefore you take away the very essence of the game and we have another stress test. I was hopeing the Builders of our game would make the economy for us, by getting together and decide What the prices should be. I am guessing that they don't know the price's, don't know what to charge, don't care about the credits as much as most of us do, making the stuff we do in game "a rat race with no meaning or purpose" There has got to be an Economy ! Greed in game is Good ask Dewinter. While you may be helping a few people you ARE NOT HELPING THE GAME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taallonn Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 One thing you have to remember though is up until today the game was still in beta and testing was more important than credits. Things may change however everyone is trying to get builds so there may be more bartering than actual credit exchanges as there isn't an influx of credits in game at the moment. I can see what you are saying, I just don't know if it will happen...... As far as better gear, yeah this is a gear dependent game to an extent (not as much as wow, or tor, or other mmo's). Even back in 2002 it was only lvl 8 and 9 gear (mostly new to the game stuff) that made credits for the builders. Right now there are no established builders though, hehe Everyone is relearning the recipes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taallonn Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 [quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1352609552' post='65676'] The Economy Is 1/2 of the game. If you build and give stuff away you take away the reasons why we hunt, mine, build, quest, run trade, do missions and Jobs. Therefore you take away the very essence of the game and we have another stress test. I was hopeing the Builders of our game would make the economy for us, by getting together and decide What the prices should be. I am guessing that they don't know the price's, don't know what to charge, don't care about the credits as much as most of us do, making the stuff we do in game "a rat race with no meaning or purpose" There has got to be an Economy ! Greed in game is Good ask Dewinter. While you may be helping a few people you ARE NOT HELPING THE GAME. [/quote] I hunt, mine, do runs, ect...to hit lvl 150 and raid. I build up my trade skill to analyze raid drops (and make gear for my alts and guildmates). Most of the Best in Slot items are non-manu for the classes I play so honestly I don't need millions of credits to be satisfied with what i am doing in the game. The essence of this game to me is to see what i can solo (not multi-box) and try and find the gear to do just that. My purpose is to be challenged and have fun while I'm finding the challenge Crafting for me is mostly an after thought, just a time killer to get as many recipes as i can....sort of an achievement type thing. Which is i guess why I don't see the crafting side as that much more important in the grand scheme of things, because when the best gear you can get can't be crafted why does it matter so much (other than leveling up to get that gear) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorlaug[IS] Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 After Fish Bowls on Pegasus auctions were held the Highest bidders Got the DG or Fury's or the Eye Of Zethre-Ti. An economy was very important on Pegasus and it was part of the fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstar [MOD] Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 [quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1352609552' post='65676'] The Economy Is 1/2 of the game. If you build and give stuff away you take away the reasons why we hunt, mine, build, quest, run trade, do missions and Jobs. Therefore you take away the very essence of the game and we have another stress test. I was hopeing the Builders of our game would make the economy for us, by getting together and decide What the prices should be. I am guessing that they don't know the price's, don't know what to charge, don't care about the credits as much as most of us do, making the stuff we do in game "a rat race with no meaning or purpose" There has got to be an Economy ! Greed in game is Good ask Dewinter. While you may be helping a few people you ARE NOT HELPING THE GAME. [/quote] I've got to agree with Phorlaug and Stanig. You are seriously impacting a large portion of the game by having an ill-functioning economy. I'd love for the ores that I mine to actually be used in some building, but as mentioned there is really no market for it. You've just killed an aspect of the game which is arguably more important to explorers than warriors. The second class impact would be Traders, and least impacted warriors. Mining turned into something to kill time or to level, not the full challenge of finding those ores that were in demand or fulfilling a player's order. Still, I'm confident we can have a working economy in live. It will just take some time and changes as the game continues to evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 One way to solve this is to make some big money sinks so credits become more valuable. Make a couple of missions with some absurd mineral and parts requirements and a something like a 500mil payment. Give a choice of things like a 'looted' Black Speed, DG, other nice stuff. Some may say things are only meant to be looted from GOBB. Meh. A second (difficult) route gives people outside the big guilds a chance at things, and it would eat money. You will still end up with the big players with all the stuff and all the money, but there will be many players who decide a 500m balance is just the ticket to spend on a new ML or laser. I'm missing the game - I'm nursing a badly damaged left eye since April and I have strict limits on how long I can use a computer - rats.... Things are improving though and I cannot wait to return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorlaug[IS] Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Many times have I heard the Mobs have got to be harder to kill. The Drops more rare. Loot junk more common as also with mined resourses 3-1 useless sand or dirt. From this the economy will come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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