Change in max xp split

[ingulf]

it used to be that when you max trade out before explore and combat you would get approx 1/2 of the trade split to combat and the other half split to explore. Since sometime this weekend it looks like half of the trade xp is split between explore and combat. The result of this change is that we only get 1/4 of the xp applied to combat and 1/4 applied to explore. Is this the new way of spliting xp after maxing out combat/exlore/trade?

Thanks.

[bondct]

there is i think a 20% deduction penalty for the rollover and then its split... so not sure what you are seeing... but keep that in mind...

[Kyp [LDEV]]

We have it in written form somewhere, I don't have it readily handy at the moment but there was a 25% or 50% reduction to the xp total, and then whatever was left was split between the bars that were not at 50 yet.

[Suricata79[IS]]

50% of the XP is split betwen what remaining skills you have not capped, which is how it was in live.

[cpwings]

50% of the XP is split betwen what remaining skills you have not capped, which is how it was in live.

So which is it? Your responce differs from Avani's. I believe he is correct. Or has there been a change as part of the last content patch?

[Tienbau]

What Suricata says is right.

The spillover is 50% of the XP you gained, split between the two non-maxxed bars.

So for trade runs, if you got 2000XP for a trade, you get 50% between combat and explore, which comes to:

500 Combat

500 Explore

so you're getting 50% of the spillover.

[bondct]

What Suricata says is right.

The spillover is 50% of the XP you gained, split between the two non-maxxed bars.

So for trade runs, if you got 2000XP for a trade, you get 50% between combat and explore, which comes to:

500 Combat

500 Explore

so you're getting 50% of the spillover.

when did this change or is the forumla for people without negotiate... I recall leveling up my TE and I think with L5 neg the xp rollover on the last trade run I did was 800 total and 300/300 rollover...

[seekeronos]

Same here. My TS with max negotiate (L5) was getting 3,000 per item from FPO to Somerled, and upon rollover taking a 20% penalty:

1500 x 0.8 = 1200 to Explore

1500 x 0.8 = 1200 to Combat

I have a TT at TL48, but as much as I detest trade runs, I was looking forward to bringing combat up a little via spillover so I can equip L6 MLs.

Haven't tested TR's since the update, but does this mean I'll be seeing this:

1500 x 0.5 = 750 to Explore

1500 x 0.5 = 750 to Combat

If so, that's a little steep, if only to further nerf people from leveling to 150 with just trade runs.

I'll say I disagree with that premise, since a trader class, or a class with trader traits should be able to use his unique trading advantages much the same way warrior classes excel at gaining combat xp and miners do with explore xp.

As far as issues of balanced levels go, the norm from Live was generally to have trade and explore about 5-10 levels above combat for non-warriors, - since most non-warriors were woefully underpowered vs. mobs at their combat level if they were evenly balanced, at least up to around OL140.

Warriors could get away with being fairly balanced in all xp bands.

[karu [WDL]]

Haven't tested TR's since the update, but does this mean I'll be seeing this:

1500 x 0.5 = 750 to Explore

1500 x 0.5 = 750 to Combat

If so, that's a little steep, if only to further nerf people from leveling to 150 with just trade runs.

yeah... spillover xp got optimized to 50% and not 80% like it was before.

imho spillover should be removed and let the lvl 50 skill slowly fill up and up and ... and add enough 'activity' for non explorers to get their xp in explore ;-)

[Suricata79[IS]]

Just to give a vague idea of how fast players can get XP now, if you compare the numbers from the emu to the games design documents from live, players earn XP at a 600% more rate on jobs, trade runs are giving XP at about 300-400% more than live, and spillover XP was giving 30% more than live. This are pretty huge numbers and litterally equate to months worth of leveling condensed into a few weeks. Although I'm sure some people are very happy with been able to cap multiple charactors with every skill, its not a very healthy thing long term for the game, more so when the game still hasn't got proper endgame content yet, so there really is no need to race to 150! (I blame WoW for peoples obsession with having to get capped ASAP)

To give a vague idea, the ETA of getting 100 in the design documents was 217 hours, right now players can get to lvl 100 in a few days (I did it over a weekend). I hope that puts into perspective the fact that although spillover XP has been adjusted back to how it was in live, players are still leveling at insane rates.

*Dons flame suit*

[Terrell [BT]]

yeah... spillover xp got optimized to 50% and not 80% like it was before.

imho spillover should be removed and let the lvl 50 skill slowly fill up and up and ... and add enough 'activity' for non explorers to get their xp in explore ;-)

I don't think we should do away with spillover, but my JW and JT would LOVE to see more ways to level up explore.

[Heirkusan]

Although I'm sure some people are very happy with been able to cap multiple charactors with every skill, its not a very healthy thing long term for the game, more so when the game still hasn't got proper endgame content yet, so there really is no need to race to 150! (I blame WoW for peoples obsession with having to get capped ASAP)

Leveling in this game.

CL: Sit in a spot with good re-spawns, not overly aggressive NPCs. Then bot,macro, or play the game and kill them OVER and OVER. Then go back to base to sell/get ammo. Go back, kill same mob due to be good place to kill. Which also allows you to only by one set of gear.

EL: Spillover or Mine. In rare case of low levels do some jobs. Unless you really have a peeve of getting up explore or OL. Then Jobs, which are go to point a, plant thing, go to a base for new explore. Pretty much like trade runs, but to Nav points.

TL: Go back and forth to a base a lot. Farm organics,stackable loot while farming CL to "TRY" to keep balance on it. Usually as before in CL. Same spot. Less gear needed. Close to base. Predictable drops.

After Max, or close with 9/8 equip maxed, 140+ basically.

You can farm rare drops easier. Allows you to ANYWHERE pretty much and explore. Allows you to help others more. Allows you to test higher NPCs usually suppose to be harder. Raids. Cooler equipment. More variety on gear since you know you'll not replacing it anymore pretty much. Allows you to goof off more(Opinion, you can at lower levels to, but you still need to level for skills where after 140+ you have the good skills, rest are mostly fillers.) Personally WoW did a good job with must be capped thing. Leveling is not fun at all besides maybe FPSs to a extent, but even in those being max gives you more stuff to mess with which is why max level is best.

You may be able to say. "Oh, but you can do other stuff." Though it isn't efficient, and also causes imbalances of levels usually with friends. Where if your 150, your friends are 150. It doesn't change drastically allowing you group up and do something. Instead of say a 130 PW with a 100 TE friend could unless same CL, but the PW might feel gimped with TE cause TE would be at risk of mobs (as if lolhitting forward is hard) its just a example. Max Level in any game. Allows things to be more balanced. Since you are basing it off everyone has same level, pretty much max skills. Only gear difference.

Edit: Trade Runs are lols. Doing them to 50 on my JD last stress test/wipe thing. I managed to finish 4 Anime Series. If it goes to where it takes 2 days for a level pass 30. Probably just going to play COD more. I don't like the same mob for 2 days straight, but I neither like being un-efficient. Plus, finding a good spot is rare. That is why I hate leveling from 15 to 18 CL. There is rarely any spots unless you farm things with no stackables.

Edit 2: For miners, they literally have to farm pretty similar mines, due to huge exp decrease trying to do ones under what their explore level, unless fixed, but I don't believe so. Pink clouds and rocks for 2 days.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Heirku

[seekeronos]

To give a vague idea, the ETA of getting 100 in the design documents was 217 hours, right now players can get to lvl 100 in a few days (I did it over a weekend). I hope that puts into perspective the fact that although spillover XP has been adjusted back to how it was in live, players are still leveling at insane rates.

*Dons flame suit*

I don't know from WoW, but I've heard that there is a bit of a "race to level (cap)" mentality. But no less so than in many other games.

Having wasted a good 2-3 years in FFXI... where the level grind was rather preposterous (a 30hour+ per week powergamer could raise a toon to L75 from a month (bards, mages and other popular classes) to three months (most melee classes) to six months (thieves, dark knights, and dragoons... this be you)... and those figures double or triple for more normal people with jobs and lives.

I got my principal toon in live to 150 in the space of a year (JE) and mid-levels with the two or three other toons I played.

Now the primary purpose of the level grind (taking a horrendous amount of time) is primarily to put money into the bank accounts of the game publishers (EA, Sony Online Entertainment, Square Enix, Blizzard, et al. this be you....)

Padding the level grind (or faction grind/fame grind and conquest points grind in FFXI/chocobo farming etc.) as long as humanly endurable is key to maximizing the time between releases of expansions and story arcs. And of course, separating the gamer from his or her funds and family as the case may be.

Now, as for raising an Emulator toon to OL100 in two days... that's just not something I'm convinced that a lot of us will do (not saying it can't be done, and that no small number of folks do... just that I've often got a lot of other things to do on a weekend than to repeatedly bop the same set of mobs over their heads for their lunch money and assorted broken drone bits and oxygen pumps).

To wit, I've raised two toons (TS and PW) to over 150 in the space of 4.5 months, and have had them "overdinging" for about a month (PW is around 160, TS is pretty close) and a TT at L110.

I'm pretty happy with that, vs. the likely two or possibly three years it might have taken me to do in Live given the same play time available to me now (not as much as in the early 2000s for me).

Coming back full circle here - there's less of a compelling reason to make the grind *exactly* as in Live. Many of us that played Live are quite a bit older, and have jobs and families and such that make (necessary and even wanted) demands upon our time. Further, there is less (if any) monetary incentive to prolong the grind.

At the same time, we don't want to have it so easy that by a mere weekend of CASUAL play, we get OL100 toons.

To sum up - continue to make adjustments as you see fit - but please remember that the audience from Live that is here may not necessarily have the same circumstances as we did nearly a decade ago.

Respectfully,

-Seeker

[bondct]

I don't know from WoW, but I've heard that there is a bit of a "race to level (cap)" mentality. But no less so than in many other games.

Having wasted a good 2-3 years in FFXI... where the level grind was rather preposterous (a 30hour+ per week powergamer could raise a toon to L75 from a month (bards, mages and other popular classes) to three months (most melee classes) to six months (thieves, dark knights, and dragoons... this be you)... and those figures double or triple for more normal people with jobs and lives.

I got my principal toon in live to 150 in the space of a year (JE) and mid-levels with the two or three other toons I played.

Now the primary purpose of the level grind (taking a horrendous amount of time) is primarily to put money into the bank accounts of the game publishers (EA, Sony Online Entertainment, Square Enix, Blizzard, et al. this be you....)

Padding the level grind (or faction grind/fame grind and conquest points grind in FFXI/chocobo farming etc.) as long as humanly endurable is key to maximizing the time between releases of expansions and story arcs. And of course, separating the gamer from his or her funds and family as the case may be.

Now, as for raising an Emulator toon to OL100 in two days... that's just not something I'm convinced that a lot of us will do (not saying it can't be done, and that no small number of folks do... just that I've often got a lot of other things to do on a weekend than to repeatedly bop the same set of mobs over their heads for their lunch money and assorted broken drone bits and oxygen pumps).

To wit, I've raised two toons (TS and PW) to over 150 in the space of 4.5 months, and have had them "overdinging" for about a month (PW is around 160, TS is pretty close) and a TT at L110.

I'm pretty happy with that, vs. the likely two or possibly three years it might have taken me to do in Live given the same play time available to me now (not as much as in the early 2000s for me).

Coming back full circle here - there's less of a compelling reason to make the grind *exactly* as in Live. Many of us that played Live are quite a bit older, and have jobs and families and such that make (necessary and even wanted) demands upon our time. Further, there is less (if any) monetary incentive to prolong the grind.

At the same time, we don't want to have it so easy that by a mere weekend of CASUAL play, we get OL100 toons.

To sum up - continue to make adjustments as you see fit - but please remember that the audience from Live that is here may not necessarily have the same circumstances as we did nearly a decade ago.

Respectfully,

-Seeker

/signed

imho the people that will go from 0-150 in 5 min and then leave I dont think are our group... but if they are... oh well... I have a job and family too... and to have to spend a year or two to get a maxed out toon (and I am a multi boxer) is not in the cards for me... I have things todo that done involve 50 hrs a week of enb (sadly)...

[Suricata79[IS]]

Just to add, I'm fine with the emu allowing people to level a bit faster than live, but it has to be balnced carefully so all 3 xp types are viable, otherwise you get a situation where one xp type gives more than another even after spillover reduction, which messes up the games flow.

[Lars[IS]]

Hello,

Ok, here is my take on leveling and as you can see I know a thing or 2 about it. If someone wants to spend there game time doing non-stop trade runs way not let them. I for one never used this way of leveling as to me it is a waste of time as you are not only losing points in the long run, but for me I get borred to death doing TR's. Now every player is different and some like to do Combat and others like to mine while still others like to do Trade runs. The thing that make EnB so special is that players can choose what they want to do and how they level their toons. We as Dev's can not take that away from them and should allow them to level how ever they want to. Now if someone wants to level up to 150 in a week who cares? It will not effect how I play so why should I spend my time as a Dev trying to figure out how to make it harder on the players to level their toons. Some players can spend 12 hours a day playing (me) and some can barely do 12 hours a month. Just because some players can spend more time online shouldn't meen we punish the players that have little time to spend playing the game.

Now to the point, I purpose either setting the spill over to 100% or 0%. Either way would solve the problem in that either players that wanted to level their toon by doing TR's could, or would teach them that they would need to level each area with things that effect that area which in my view has always been the way to go anyway. As you see by my sig I have 8 level 150 toons and none of them got there by doing nothing but TR's. I have thought about trying that, but since I really hate TR's I decided not to and I really don't think you will find many players that do it either and if there are, who cares anyway. If that is how they choose to spend their time playing let them!

TTYL :-)

Merlin

[bondct]

100% spillover... Merl are you married... cuz I think I am in love with you

just so you can see the other side a bit... I level mostly by trade runs (or trade related stuff) and its not boring to me... cuz in case you cant tell by how much time I spend on the forum... I talk to much... so its easy to bs during trade and not so easy to talk during combat... so when I hunt its usually targeted... go kill it till I get what I want and move on

[Heirkusan]

Hello,

Now to the point, I purpose either setting the spill over to 100% or 0%.

Merlin

As long as explore still got spillover, or re-vamped for non-explorers. Then I could probably deal with this. Though pure combat going from 0 to 50 CL farming organics/stackables. Will net you TL 40 at best, maybe 35. By time 50 TL (if no spillover at time) I'd have 20-30 levels in CL if not more unless I did trade runs, but I can't find any good series to watch to do them as a non-negotiate class.

(Currently leveling JD Alt, waiting till 25 EL to even learn cloak. 0.4k Sig is good enough for me, at OL60 I could probably get 0.2k,0.1k with a lvl4 SS, Baka, Musca. <3 Being able to sit next to NPCs is great like a built in all time cloak. Now only if I could tell where they were. I'm going to go emo trying to use combat cloak due to the NPC placement bug. x_x; )

[Terrell [BT]]

As long as explore still got spillover, or re-vamped for non-explorers. Then I could probably deal with this. Though pure combat going from 0 to 50 CL farming organics/stackables. Will net you TL 40 at best, maybe 35. By time 50 TL (if no spillover at time) I'd have 20-30 levels in CL if not more unless I did trade runs, but I can't find any good series to watch to do them as a non-negotiate class.

(Currently leveling JD Alt, waiting till 25 EL to even learn cloak. 0.4k Sig is good enough for me, at OL60 I could probably get 0.2k,0.1k with a lvl4 SS, Baka, Musca. <3 Being able to sit next to NPCs is great like a built in all time cloak. Now only if I could tell where they were. I'm going to go emo trying to use combat cloak due to the NPC placement bug. x_x; )

Have to agree with this, on explore XP. When I was levelling up my JT I did Trade Runs since it was the most efficent way to level her up, and used Spillover to get her explore based skills, specifically Combat Cloak, and Scan 5, which required EL25 done. (Jobs weren't in at the time)

[r8rsfans75]

If someone wants to spend there game time doing non-stop trade runs way not let them.

/signed

Suricata, not to tread too much against a dev, but I believe considering lengthening the amount of time it takes to cap a toon is not a decision you should be able to make by yourself (you being all of the devs because I assume this is something that is discussed between all of you and not just one person making a decision that affects an entire community) I believe some of these changes should be posed to the community as a whole, through some type of poll or whatever, because similar to Seeker's comments, I played this game in live and don't have as much time now as I did back then (life, work, and what-not). Been playing for about 4 months now, have one toon up to 109, three others under 50, and would like to be able to get all 4 of them up to the higher levels so I can experience the higher level content from different aspects (progen, jenquai, terran).

And I had to -1 you for the "few days to get to lvl 100" comment, you may have been able to do that, and I'm sure it is a statistical possibility for anyone, but the reality of actually having the time to that I'm sure only exists for a very small handful of people that play on this server, so adjusting the game to their benefit seems a bit unreasonable to me.

[Heirkusan]

(I blame WoW for peoples obsession with having to get capped ASAP)

I don't really like bashing Suricata, or any person directly. Maybe criticism, but yea.

Pretty example.

It took me 1 week to 80 on a alt in WoW. Approx play time 3 days.

For my uncle it took 2 months. Approx play time 13 days.

What is the difference? I pretty much worked my butt off each day of the week to stay focused for large amounts of time. I'm also a far better player them him at the game (this game doesn't have a skill cap really, you press fire all then a skill and win. maybe a debuff or a 2. I mean the game overall has a low skill cap). Balancing things around hardcore gamers hurt the casual all in all just to say the least.

8-12 hours(Pretty much everyday) vs 2-4 hours(4 days a week on average, maybe less depending on how casual)

I notice a lot of casuals. Not as many hardcore, but there are some.

Just to let you know, I can't really play this game more then 6 hours. Or I start to feel like I'm not doing anything. Right Click Target. Hit F. Loot. Target Next. Hit F. Loot. Repeat till 150 or I sit afk as a miner mines or I do trade runs( which 2/3 of my toons are 50 TL so it doesn't matter and I dont plan on doing to many on my JD cause I'm going to 'cheat' and dual box mine him, while combating in certain areas I've found.)

Pretty much game should be slightly balanced around casuals. In which just play time casually playing. This game DOES NOT have a high skill cap to play at all. Unlike comparing it to WoW. Where you can really notice a good player from a bad.

PW: Bad players can hit F, follow players guides to best gear, and hit shield spam/inversion. Good players do same thing, but might have slightly better timing on it.

This game even has form so the good player can drive and make decisions while others buff/hit F(fire all) or heal.

[Kenu [CDEV]]

it took me about a year to hit 150 in live, but I really enjoyed myself before I hit 150.

I didn't spend all my time running trade runs over and over, that would be boring!

I was fighting, mining, exploring, talking and doing all sorts of stuff.

If you guys are concerned about hitting 150 because it's the fun part, maybe the problem is you don't find the lower levels fun enough? I'm sure not all of you want to wait a year before 150 but if we devs provide enough lower level content I could see the ride to 150 as being a fun and enjoyable one. If you really want to get to 150 you could play for 10 hours a day, but I don't recommend that. Take your time, enjoy the ride. It may take a while but if you enjoy it, no problems then. If you're not enjoying the lower levels as much as you could, let us know.

[Zinlu]

Merlin's Post

Merlin said almost exactly what I have been thinking. (Psychot.. err Psychic?) Worded it much better than I would've been able to as well. Work, family, puppies, house, busy busy busy. I don't get to play near as much as I would like to anymore.

I personally like to mine my way through levels. Avani likes to trade run through levels. I'm sure there's a few that like to hunt through their levels. That's one of the things about EnB, you can level however you like. No game I have played since sunset gives the players this flexibility. I'm fine with whatever is decided by the powers that be, but that spillover is a big part of what makes EnB for me. 50% is fine, 80% is better and 100% would be wondermous!

Some players may be able to race to 150 but I dropped out of that race years ago. I already have a job, why would I want to come home to another?

Take your time, enjoy the ride.

Right on, Kenu!

Edited July 8, 2010 by Zinlu

[Suricata79[IS]]

I think some people are missing what I'm trying to portray.

I fully believe a player should be able to level up in ways they enjoy, however, the moment one form of XP is 4-5 times more effective than another, then the system becomes unbalanced. This then makes it unfair for people who don't like that type of content. For example, if someone who does trade runs can hit lvl 150 in a week, but someone doing combat or mining thats 5-6 weeks, then the system favours the player that does trade runs. Ideally, you want players to level up at the similar rates with all 3 XP types, this is something that is not currently happening because some XP types are genuinely giving too much XP. A player doing trade runs should not be earning more combat XP, even after the 50% reduction than someone doing combat, becuase that is quite onviously broken.

I'm more than aware some people are more casual than they were during live, and I'm aware a fair few people believe that since there is no subscriptions now, the grind should be pretty much removed, however, the entire point of an MMO is to get you hooked, this was achieved very successfully with EnB as it had so many ways to hook a player, such as splitting the XP so you had more chance of been close to getting the 'next level', as well as having lvl restrictions on items, hull upgrades, rare items, etc,... It's all part of the 'Carrot on the stick' philosphy to keep players going. This is quite an important thing to remember, because when you remove these 'carrots', you remove some of the magic that made EnB the addictive game it was. This is quite relevant when it comes to leveling, since most item upgrades came every 10 levels or so, if a player can grinf away 10-12 levels a day, then getting the next new item isn't quite as magical, since you barely have time to enjoy your gear before it needs replacing again. The same goes with people wanting drop rates increasing so rare items are easier to get, the moment this is done, the items are no longer rare and again loose the 'specialness' they had.

I know some people probably hate my opinions on these things, but I genuinly think that althoghu some ideas of removing XP reduction, increasing drop rates and genuinely letting players level much quicker than live, although sounding fun, are actually quite dangerous for the games balance.

[Heirkusan]

This is quite relevant when it comes to leveling, since most item upgrades came every 10 levels or so, if a player can grinf away 10-12 levels a day, then getting the next new item isn't quite as magical, since you barely have time to enjoy your gear before it needs replacing again.

I believe in what Kenu said. In WoW I enjoyed beginner dungeons, and the amount of areas. Course nothing to much like that in EnB till higher levels. Mobs act all the same till around 40s. Some mobs don't even drop anything. Example is Evil Plants on Swooping Eagle planet. They drop 2 non-sellable items a lot. And rarely other things outside of the amazing item Musca. Where as the Nommus drop fair share of stackable. Least 1 stackable item per kill, then cat paws/beams very rare occasion.

I also quoted equipment part, because reactors don't change any look. Shields, engines don't yet or never did. Devices don't weapon do. And how things work, is since there is a set of best equipment for each level not a variety you can go 40-50 levels with same looking guns.

Ex: White Dragons lvl2-4s etc. Foxs 4-6s?

Same with rifles. You get the point.

Nothing changes till pretty much after 30-50 levels.

What I'd like to see. A form of raid for lower levels. Say you can't use this gate if over OL 80.

Mobs are elites. (Say just make them mobs that have a double exp or modifer on them, but have higher hp and do more damage, but not over doing it) allowing groups to go in there. And say at nav points after killing 20-30 mobs(that don't respawn till all killed which I'll explain in a sec) then a Boss spawns. You can kill boss discuss/ give loot. Then about 5-10 mins later NPCs start to spawn.

Now due to coding now. It is harder to do, or problematic, but if it is fun. Might be worth leveling. I like grouping and over-coming something I can't do myself.

I'd also like drop only non-tradable/non-craftable to drop in places. THAT IS BETTER THEN CRAFTABLE. Not just buffs, but dps. Cause buffs just aren't worth it sometimes. And a lot of harder drops, non-craftables. Suck compared to player made. Which are easy to make, and for examples Rifles and White Dragons/Orange Beams etc which are top dps of their level, but Rifles have only Plasma, then beams are energy, but then mortars and just use dirks etc. Which are all buyable. Which doesn't change. I mean. Yay fun, next level I get to sit next to a vendor and buy dismantle build till 200%. In which looks the same as my other beam and fires the same laser or proj.

In there was variety in lower levels, it might be enjoyable to do.

Incase and point. It isn't. Mobs 'auto fire' nothing till higher levels, most items can be bought that you need besides rare few, but server has or VERY easy to farm. AND is tradable.

Pretty you can use WoW in example. You get better loot from harder things and they aren't tradable besides the few VERY rare 0.1% drops that are tradable. Now I don't want you to use that as a example to make good loot 0.1% or anything, cause its dumb. You'd level probably before it dropped and wouldn't really be able to use it. Though I know several Dev(s) have thought of these things (Kyp for one), so I'm repeating what you probably have heard, but till there is something worth doing at lower levels don't touch exp besides balancing the 3. (Explore sucks, combat is okay. Trade is amazingly high at low levels(trade runs) then at higher levels without negotiate make people cry especially PWs, but allows you to watch movies I guess right? Instead of playing game. Trade Exp from mobs is okay. If Trash Drops were more balanced between mobs instead of mainly organics, though Chazez or decent to.)

I could say more, but I'd like to play the game too!