If Pvp Were Added - How To Make It Fun For All

[Mattsacre]

LOL yeh PvP, but live arena thats how it had to be for it to function, a PS wasn't targetable while powerdowned *shrug*, and if you were a warrior were you REALLY menaced, feared, intimidated by a mere PS? Lol thats how it had to function for a PS to be in the mix, their skill set made them SO scary you just HAD to fun in fear of just how uber they was lol.

Just like ENRAGE skill...would not your AI see that the PW/TE was egging you on and making you "forget" to use a skill? Yeh enrage is insta-alzheimers...riiggght. Same with forced contemplation...your AI was so weak that a JE could make you have a sudden urge to stare at your belly button? pfft, but thats how they had to function to work in pvp, you in RL might see through it but for their skills to function belief in game had to be suspended.

JD/JE teleport enemy....that was so interruptable its not even funny, they would see you activating a skill in the target pane and "flood/spike" dmg you to failure, they are already dmging you, that slowed the skill activation down, then they would use skills like enrage or grav link at faster tiers and activate debuff devices like basalisk etc. it would spike your skill to fail. JD/JE with more device slots woould use insta-actives to try the same thing of course.

Yes for reals you can figure out things, like in other games magic users would have say a skill like clone/copy, that made several copies of themself to confuse the mobs, but against a player its useless, I mean they can see which "copy" is shooting or running away right?

But for players skills to function in PvP it has to "force you to perceive" the other player in some way for it to work, you don't really fall for it, but it effects you just the same.

[Vitaes]

"But for players skills to function in PvP it has to "force you to perceive" the other player in some way for it to work, you don't really fall for it, but it effects you just the same"

That's the way resistance works in other games, and could be made to work here.

To borrow from the fantasy-type games, here are examples of "spells to skills" that this game could have. Anyone who has played Anarchy Online, Everquest, WoW, Asheron's Call, or Vendetta Online could identify with this. I'll even include Baldur's Gate, because in that game if you had a bunch of people playing, you could turn on each other and PvP!

Root=grav link
Fear=menace
Illusion=cloak
Charm=befriend
Teleport/shift=fold space
Harm=leech
Blind/paralyze=hacking

Skills like those should have a % chance of fail when used against another player (except for leech, that should work almost all the time I'd say). The fail chance should not be so high that the skill becomes useless, but high enough so that the user knows that he better have "Plan B" ready in case of failure (Oh crap, my fold space failed and that PW is about to unload on me...maybe I should fold on myself and get the hell out of here before I become the newest hulk field...).

In other respects, EnB already has many attributes of other games that feature PvP. Shields and armor from fantasy games, especially those with different resistances to various attack forms, are duplicated in EnB through the many shield types and deflect devices availible to players. Consider that in a fantasy-type game, and sci-fi crossovers, there are attack forms like piercing, blunt, slashing, fire, cold, acid, and bludgeoning. Here, they are plasma, impact, energy, chemical, explosive, EMP, and psionic. Seven each, nice coincidence, hehe. In other games, debuffing is an important aspect of PvE and PvP, just as it is in EnB. No difference there.

Would PvP equipment be different? No...but the CHOICE of gear used would be different. All of a sudden, items that feature a faster equip time, for example, might suddenly become a lot more useful to classes with few device slots (yes, you, Mr. Progen Warrior). Gear that enhance cloaking ability, healing, or deflects againt the popular attack types would be in high demand, as would gear that improves critical targeting. If you only have a few device slots, having a device similar to the Ivory Ward, which covers five deflects, looks darn good to classes with three or four device slots. Gear that can enhance the range of healer-types would look good in a group, too, as they need to keep the fighter-types alive, so they too can survive. Having a mix of weapons in the group that can fire different types of damage to get around the buffs others are using could now be important.

There's a lot of potential here. It'd be cool if we can realize it.

[Mimir[IS]]

Here is the deal...as far as I know not much can be changed in the client (unless someone is working on a new one) so just open it up to PvP system wide. See if the 4 or 5 in here that are actively pushing for PvP can sustain the server costs. If not make sure you have those that bail e-mail addresses and let them know it was an oopsi and beg them to return. Seriously Open up the arenas [u][b][i]FIRST[/i][/b][/u] as a test to see if there is any use in them before going to the trouble to make a sector for a handful of players.

Think prototype.

[Ryle [N7R]]

PW roots enemies with grav link, TEs hack them to keep them from fighting back effectively, PS and PP Menaces the Opfor DPS while the PW and TW mangles the JE and TTs of the Opfor.

mwa haha

[Vitaes]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336914217' post='57875']
Here is the deal...as far as I know not much can be changed in the client (unless someone is working on a new one) so just open it up to PvP system wide. See if the 4 or 5 in here that are actively pushing for PvP can sustain the server costs. If not make sure you have those that bail e-mail addresses and let them know it was an oopsi and beg them to return. Seriously Open up the arenas [u][b][i]FIRST[/i][/b][/u] as a test to see if there is any use in them before going to the trouble to make a sector for a handful of players.

Think prototype.
[/quote]

I agree and disagree--no, I'm not bipolar. Having a whole sector that flags you when you entered is probably about the same as getting flagged for the arena. If the arena is considered a separate sector for PvP purposes, then maybe it's very possible to do that to a sector. As far as the arena, again, certain classes are really at a disadvantage in such an artificial, confined playground. I, and others, stopped using them during live because of that. The arena was not, and never was, real PvP.

[Vitaes]

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1336914564' post='57878']
PW roots enemies with grav link, TEs hack them to keep them from fighting back effectively, PS and PP Menaces the Opfor DPS while the PW and TW mangles the JE and TTs of the Opfor.

mwa haha
[/quote]

Group cloak is lifted. JD decloaks and folds space 3 times on PW (crowd control). Other decloaking Jennie summons friend to battle area, where a TE has counter-hacked the first TE. PS and PP now fighting outnumbered and hope to survive until the rest of the battle group is back in the fight, as cowardly TT's fire missles from long range. MWA haha!!

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1336915661' post='57880']
I agree and disagree--no, I'm not bipolar. Having a whole sector that flags you when you entered is probably about the same as getting flagged for the arena. If the arena is considered a separate sector for PvP purposes, then maybe it's very possible to do that to a sector. As far as the arena, again, certain classes are really at a disadvantage in such an artificial, confined playground. I, and others, stopped using them during live because of that. The arena was not, and never was, real PvP.
[/quote]

That is the rub... Many didn't use the arenas. Is it possible that your memory may be faded as all of ours are and that was not the only reason for lack of use? How large an area is not confining? I guess as long as it can be done without modifying the client it would be worth a shot to go ahead and just do it. Flagging and activating and deactivating I assume would be a client modification so that would be out. (Unless PvP is worth incurring EA's wraith). So that leaves a sector or the whole EnB world. From what I have read on some posts a sector is not enough and they want the whole game PvP. If the PvP supporters are that sure that there will be no or little loss of users (read players that donate) then don't bother the discussion, just go for it. It won't be perfect out of the box and will require tweaking and modifications anyway.

[Ryle [N7R]]

mmm, its all about gaming choices really. What if at any given time I could login and have the following playstyle choices:

1. Get with some guildies and fishbowl
2. Level my toons with jobs or farming
3. Mine
4. Make stuff
5. Flag overt and kill some other players, or get ganked for lulz.
6. Do 1-4 as 5, with the added dimension (possible increased drop rates or reward associated with the risk)


I sorta lold @ terminal PvP. Make stuff overt XD. DATS MY JOB, NO ITS MINE N00B, HEY THATS MY 5F5. PEW PEW

lolz

[Vitaes]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336917046' post='57882']
That is the rub... Many didn't use the arenas. Is it possible that your memory may be faded as all of ours are and that was not the only reason for lack of use? How large an area is not confining? I guess as long as it can be done without modifying the client it would be worth a shot to go ahead and just do it. Flagging and activating and deactivating I assume would be a client modification so that would be out. (Unless PvP is worth incurring EA's wraith). So that leaves a sector or the whole EnB world. From what I have read on some posts a sector is not enough and they want the whole game PvP. If the PvP supporters are that sure that there will be no or little loss of users (read players that donate) then don't bother the discussion, just go for it. It won't be perfect out of the box and will require tweaking and modifications anyway.
[/quote]

I hope my memory hasn't faded that much! I think PvP'ers would be content with one sector. These sectors are large enough for any tactics. Of course, I can't speak as to how much coding has to be done in order to do this.

I remember the arenas being nearly empty after a while. From what I remember, some were bored, some didn't like the fact that the arena environment favored some classes over others, and some just don't like PvP.

Now, I'll address the one big gorilla in the room that no one has yet mentioned. Our population is already small. Is there enough of a PvP population to justify the resources necessary to get this up and running? And even PvP'ers PvE a lot. Unless you're on a PvP-only server in a game, it's not death and destruction 24/7. I just think, from experience, that PvP would be a blast in this game. There is so much potential for it.

[Ryle [N7R]]

I gotta admit that when it comes to gaming, and how ive evolved as a player over the last decade, this game as it is today is way too easy in terms of difficulty. Theres nothing hard to do (outside of some of the agrippa stuff, but thats just cause no ones really pinned it down yet, its still too new to know how to minmax it)

Fun for me is conquest of a system. IE: When the fishbowl first came out in live, that was HARD, and it took us weeks and months to get it down to a science of how to beat it. Heck I remember blown raids with 30 doritos all screaming at each other over who screwed up.

I know the prospect of new fantastic content is years off, like many others I am bored to tears and want something else to do. Why not blow up Vitaes for a few hours a day while we wait for epic content and the devs and testers to sort the bugs. Sure beats job runs and grinding fish.

[Vitaes]

"I know the prospect of new fantastic content is years off, like many others I am bored to tears and want something else to do. [b]Why not blow up Vitaes for a few hours a day[/b] [b]while we wait for epic content[/b] and the devs and testers to sort the bugs. Sure beats job runs and grinding fish."

Thanks buddy :-) I'll get that screenshot of your flaming, sparkling ship, distress beacon toggled, and make it my background!

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1336922572' post='57886']
"I know the prospect of new fantastic content is years off, like many others I am bored to tears and want something else to do. [b]Why not blow up Vitaes for a few hours a day[/b] [b]while we wait for epic content[/b] and the devs and testers to sort the bugs. Sure beats job runs and grinding fish."

Thanks buddy :-) I'll get that screenshot of your flaming, sparkling ship, distress beacon toggled, and make it my background!
[/quote]

[img]http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/266/4/1/diglett_used_taunt_by_shwigityshwonshwei-d2zc3n0.png[/img]

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336914217' post='57875']
Here is the deal...as far as I know not much can be changed in the client (unless someone is working on a new one) so just open it up to PvP system wide. See if the 4 or 5 in here that are actively pushing for PvP can sustain the server costs. If not make sure you have those that bail e-mail addresses and let them know it was an oopsi and beg them to return. Seriously Open up the arenas [u][b][i]FIRST[/i][/b][/u] as a test to see if there is any use in them before going to the trouble to make a sector for a handful of players.

Think prototype.
[/quote]

I hate to admit but a smaller start to PvP like 1-2 sectors for testing purposes makes a [s]Little [/s]sense.
But If there were to be a PvP Zone why not make it big to start instead of going Back and then making it big? Do it once big and scratch it off the "To Do list".
As far as the skill tweaking yea theres going to be some bitach'in, by the races and classes. just like we have had it in PvE.

I really don't see a exodus of The EMU if there's a PvP that is Elective based or seperate New Sector, I see a player base that grows. And to accommodate a new player base in EnB EMU The PvP Sector should be Big.

Also to start the PvP zone should Only have Vendor Items Only ! The use of skills and skiil points will be the most important thing a player could do. Do any of you remember how much you looked forward to having a L2 device drop in your starting zone?

I know its hard to believe but I cheered and got excited for the L2 Heavy Shikari Armorplate.
[url="http://enbarsenal.com/item/view_item.php?&id=1846&type=11"]http://enbarsenal.co...id=1846&type=11[/url]

I got to say I am really anxious to test some PvP, it [b]can't[/b] be that hard. I remember when the DEV's were in Vrix ships in The jupiter sector shooting at the players as the players were trying to kill them.
Hell I wouldn't mind being shot at just to get a better idea of what we need.
Other words I'll take one for the Team .

Ryle, Paper (Plasma) covers rock, Brains over brawn, The Pen is mightier than the Sword.
Everyone can be defeated either through Attrition, patients, will. skill, choice of Equip and divide and conquer.
We will all learn and adapt there are so many variants whos to say the out come will always be the same.

[HellHasArrived]

Does anyone else remember PvP on the PTR server, when they were trying to put in the special Halloween sector? Everyone started out fresh new toons, but they enabled slash commands so you can get to 150, and all your HU's. Was kinda fun, but got boring because the server wouldn't save.

[Mattsacre]

*sigh* they skipped over what mimir was saying, complained about the "restraints" of arena and continued unabated.[list]
[*]Perhaps an analogy:
[*]When you make toast and jam do you?
[*]A. Spread butter on bread and pop in toaster.
[*]B. Spread jam on bread then toast adding butter at last.
[*]C. Toast bread, add butter, add jam eat and enjoy
[*]D. A and B
[*]C. All of the above.
[/list]
If you picked other than C you are going to have a big sticky mess and possibly a firey disaster.

Since the framework and idea (and memories) of the arena are reasonably intact, why not resurrect arena AS A BABY STEP, towards PvP, see that they can get it all worked out as a instance driven framwork (thats what arena was..a rudamentary instance before they were called "instances" in MMO.

Once thats shown to work, move on to phase 2 PvP, namely: Zone based PvP, as arena won't take alteration to client, zone based might, full univeral definately will. Prove that it can be done on a zone basis, within that zone have a area that is flag free and flag based PvP, the free would be the jumping off or launch into PvP parts of zone, that would test the viability of flagging and if it would possibly function on a universal basis.

So arena and zone worked? Good then expand the experiment to universal phase 3 , taking what yoiu learned and apply it. It didn't work in some way? back to the drawing board until it does...chug chug chug going to get there sameday, but going to do it logically so a leap don't end in flames.

[Ryle [N7R]]

haha matt makes a post i actually agree with.

the only sticking point being i dont want it to be "lets activate arenas to placate the pvpers and then stop there and never come back"

A lot of us have a vision of at least some kinda large zone scaled combat. Really the tiny arena is nothing but a toe to toe slugfest with no real tactical situation. Id love some grav shears, line of sight issues, things like that, something that makes actual team effort and tactics worthwhile. Hard to get that in a tiny box.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1337040673' post='57968']
*sigh* they skipped over what mimir was saying, complained about the "restraints" of arena and continued unabated.[list]
[*]Perhaps an analogy:
[*]When you make toast and jam do you?
[*]A. Spread butter on bread and pop in toaster.
[*]B. Spread jam on bread then toast adding butter at last.
[*]C. Toast bread, add butter, add jam eat and enjoy
[*]D. A and B
[*]C. All of the above.
[/list]
If you picked other than C you are going to have a big sticky mess and possibly a firey disaster.
[/quote]


That Toast Came off a loaf (PvP) with many slices (Sectors).
And what kind of Jam ?

If PvP is an arena, its just a bunch of players in a hamster cage,
The PvP crowd will grow either from inside our current EMU or from the ones that have left the EMU wanting just a little more in an enviroment that we/they change with game play.

Back to fantasizing.
Here's a couple of more sectors in Orion PvP to fantasize about and plan your battles in !
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=1466"]https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=1466[/url]

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1337143076' post='58017']
That Toast Came off a loaf (PvP) with many slices (Sectors).
And what kind of Jam ?

If PvP is an arena, its just a bunch of players in a hamster cage,
The PvP crowd will grow either from inside our current EMU or from the ones that have left the EMU wanting just a little more in an enviroment that we/they change with game play.

Back to fantasizing.
Here's a couple of more sectors in Orion PvP to fantasize about and plan your battles in !
[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=1466"]https://forum.enb-emu...&attach_id=1466[/url]
[/quote]

I just can't help but think about how much farther along the project would be if this type of effort was put into the existing missing code.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

I went back and was reading some of the post, and I realized that it seems that there appears to be a feeling that it will only be a Terran against Progen or Jenquai against Terran Limit fighting THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

There can be mixed groups of all three races.
When ever one member of a group dies/incapacitates the opposing Mixed group gets a "Medal Of Valor" or some kind of reward for Goodies.
A battle could rage on for multiple Medals.

It'll be like playing poker, each hand can have different winners.
One pile of cash grows and shrinks, at the end of the game the one with all the cash or the one that bows out will determine the winner(s).
[u]In equivalent terms.[/u]
[u]One player dies and gets jump started, when all the players in a group is incapacitated or they run out of time or they see a NO WIN scenario and they retreat or bows out.[/u]

It takes Guts and Brains to say or see a bad no win situation, the same as you would if you were fighting an NPC thats to high a level for you. Plan your escape route.
The above sentence made me think, how long or how many times will you let your pride Die/incapacitate you?

Some PvP battles could last a long time all it takes is one mistake.
No doubt PvP is a very different game play, you'll want to make sure your PC has had its optimisation before you press Enter, accept or I Do !

I just want to say something else, there's no reason to vote down someones post, they are just voiceing their opinion and concern and may of misunderstood your meaning....Also An attack on someones character/player? Is that really necessary?
Take it to PvP

Kumbaya

[Reon]

here is a thought. after the game is in final beta, and things are nicely ironed out and the devs are set on class skills, balance, and most of the pressing issues, and they turn their eyes to balancing PVP, we all gank eachother in the arena and provide the devs with much needed info so skills can be balanced in pvp.

The best way to do this is to split the damage types if possible, in otherwords, do what EQ2 did. start out with allowing players to have consenual duals in an arena. Develop two seperate damage systems, one for player vs player, one for mob...that will keep skills from getting nerfed to oblivion and being useless in PVE because players are getting raped by said skills. Once skills and damage are monkeyed with on the PVP side so it has some sort of balance, turn attention outside of the arena.

The next thing to do is include pvp sectors. The devs could start with areas where the PVP is faction VS faction(think of the areas of high tension around 61 cygni for example). These sectors that are PVP oriented should not have low level mission updates in them, and there should be a warning message on the gate to alert any noobs they could get raped by gating to the pvp sector.

As the PVP system is polished, a "flagging" system could be implimented to allow people to participate in PVP should they choose in any sector of space, and the consequences for winning and loosing and any faction adjustments can be determined at the time of implimentation. I think full on pvp all the time for a PVE game is a bad idea, and having a seperate PVP server will split up a small community...I think through time, and carefull implimentation, we could see a balanced PVP sect roaming around on a standard PVE server.

With all that being said, I will be happy just to see this game released as it was around the time of sunsent...the arena will be enough to last me until the devs have the time to work on something a bit more complex.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Reon' timestamp='1337759282' post='58158']
here is a thought. after the game is in final beta, and things are nicely ironed out and the devs are set on class skills, balance, and most of the pressing issues, and they turn their eyes to balancing PVP, we all gank eachother in the arena and provide the devs with much needed info so skills can be balanced in pvp.

The best way to do this is to split the damage types if possible, in otherwords, do what EQ2 did. start out with allowing players to have consenual duals in an arena. Develop two seperate damage systems, one for player vs player, one for mob...that will keep skills from getting nerfed to oblivion and being useless in PVE because players are getting raped by said skills. Once skills and damage are monkeyed with on the PVP side so it has some sort of balance, turn attention outside of the arena.[/quote]

+1 Lets do it !
Make it so !
Get'er Done !
Why Not !

BUT, Turn Neptune into The PvP to Start, When's the last time someones been in or was able to get into Neptune?

[Riz]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1337789441' post='58162']
+1 Lets do it !
Make it so !
Get'er Done !
Why Not !

BUT, Turn Neptune into The PvP to Start, When's the last time someones been in or was able to get into Neptune?
[/quote]

B to be fair to the no-PVPers, Neptune would have to have no XP nav discovery. Otherwise you will have those not in PVP upset that those in PVP are getting explore XP for areas they cannot go. Edited May 23, 2012 by Bloody Riz

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1337789441' post='58162']
+1 Lets do it !
Make it so !
Get'er Done !
Why Not !

BUT, Turn Neptune into The PvP to Start, When's the last time someones been in or was able to get into Neptune?
[/quote]

So far Neptune has been open on the 12th of Never. There are other places that were open in the past but are closed now. Ceres, Nebiros, Ishuan Planet and Menorb would be examples. I'm hoping for Neptune to be a PvE sector with some nice new things to look at. IMO any sector that's going to be open PvP (rather than some type of voluntary PvP like flags) should be sectors that aren't on the maps of future sectors, in game resources.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1337797597' post='58165']
So far Neptune has been open on the 12th of Never. There are other places that were open in the past but are closed now. Ceres, Nebiros, Ishuan Planet and Menorb would be examples. I'm hoping for Neptune to be a PvE sector with some nice new things to look at. IMO any sector that's going to be open PvP (rather than some type of voluntary PvP like flags) should be sectors that aren't on the maps of future sectors, in game resources.
[/quote]

Lets do it !
Make it so !
Get'er Done !
Why Not !

"So far Neptune has been open on the 12th of Never." Exactly !

Menorb was an excellent sector when it was open, the difficulty ramping was right on for a starting sector.
Terrell, At this point I don't care where The PvP sector is as long as its NOT an Arena type PvP.

Let see a suggestion that will make the PvE [color=#ff0000]and[/color] PvP[color=#ff0000] and [/color]DEV players happy.
That would require reading the post / concerns of all on this topic.
I don't care who, show us..

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1337798959' post='58167']
Lets do it !
Make it so !
Get'er Done !
Why Not !

"So far Neptune has been open on the 12th of Never." Exactly !

Menorb was an excellent sector when it was open, the difficulty ramping was right on for a starting sector.
Terrell, At this point I don't care where The PvP sector is as long as its NOT an Arena type PvP.

Let see a suggestion that will make the PvE [color=#FF0000]and[/color] PvP[color=#FF0000] and [/color]DEV players happy.
That would require reading the post / concerns of all on this topic.
I don't care who, show us..
[/quote]

The Flag idea, mentioned earlier, where you default to no-PVP, and you have to do something to enable PvP. Flagging system; however, IMO should not be flagged on by shooting another player or hitting him with a AoE skill or debuff. If you're not flagged for PvP, your weapons won't fire on another player, same for a debuffer device and attack skills would have no effect on other players. Make sure that PvP flagging is accident/idiot proof.

Sectors for PvP would be okay, provided said sectors systems are not on the [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/4323-enb-maps-all/"]maps in game resources[/url], which show future sectors to be opened. This means that Epsilon Eridani, Edeinmist Nebula, Sho'da'kan Nebula, Ardus, Neptune, Nebiros, Ishaun Planet, Menorb, and other "to be opened" areas in those maps would be PvE. Now if the devs add additional sectors that aren't already mentioned on those maps for PvP, then I'm cool with it so long as the following occur.[list=1]
[*]The gates to PvP sectors are clearly marked as such. Perhaps it could say PvP zone somewhere in the targeting display in some prominent "you can't miss it" fashion.
[*]There are no PvE items that can only be obtained in the PvP sectors. There could be PvE equipment that drops in the PvP sector, provided it's tradeable outside the PvP zone or can be obtained in PvE.
[*]None of the PvE sectors or content that would have been put in game are taken away.
[/list]
So if say you had Barnard's Star as a new system and had sectors there that were PvP, I'd have no problem with it so long as the 3 conditions I mentioned before are met. Same if you pick any other star that's not already on the map to be used as PvE. Wolf 359 could be another one, so could Procyon, or Groombridge.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars"]http://en.wikipedia....f_nearest_stars[/url]