Things the team is doing wrong

[bondct]

Why are you so worried about my wording, sufficiently that you'll continue debating that rather than contribute anything?

I suppose I may as well wish for liquid diamonds to pour out of my butt, but is there any chance of those who are not interested in contributing to this thread possibly not disrupting the conversation for those who do?

/puts a bucket under mneme's butt to catch the diamonds

[Moche]

since getting contributions here seems to be like pulling teeth let me see if i can help.

i'm not a live purist i like many of the things that have been added that were not in live, character classes, secors, skills auto targeting, etc but there are some things like weapon activation that we got very used to in live that i don't like to see messed with. i have not been on since the rollback but the weapon activation semed to go back and fourth every couple days between pretty much live and what some people thought made more sense.

-please avoid unnecesary changes

things seem to get added or changed without much in the way of consensus gathering like the current long respawn on ore fields and the field wide harvest bonus i don't care for, there is no way to maintain a hunting/mining group when all the fields can be depleted in 20 minutes by a single miner then sit vacant for half an hour. we need regular steady respawn so that miners can pace themselves, or make a path so that it is possible if you find the right field to have constant mining. and one of my favorite parts about mining was hearing the resources deplete, be destroyed, then respawn.

-if we're going to go off the live model can we have a say in it

i don't like how much the forums do seem to influence development, we get a loud group of people to whine about something and it seems to get the attention. there is alot of basic resource placement that seems to have been overlooked or left on the back burner. what ever happened to all the ore fields around asteroid navs, how about resizing some of the massively stretched out ore fields we do have. we've seen high end mobs come in that warriors camp all day so the fishbowl, BBW+controller, antares are all in reasonable working order but there is virtually no hulk loot in yet and explorers are still the poorest classes.

-is there anyway we could encourage proportional development so that one race or class doesn't get all the new content while another is static

i realize the wording here may be somewhat more negative than is palatable for some but it is intended to be constuctive and i've tried to add little summaries to make sure the point gets accross. so maybe read it as... i'd like to see us try to get the game back to live before we go changing everything, is there anyway we could get a rough development roadmap so that we know what is coming in what order and perhaps it would help you to be more systematic, and can we stop oiling the squeaky hinges and expect them to realize we're still in alpha stress test.

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

I'm ok with constructive criticism but it is my understanding that some things are covered by the code of conduct:

https://enb-emulator.com/index.php?/forum-4/announcement-5-net-7-entertainment-earth-beyond-emulator-code-of-conduct/

Which everyone has agreed to, even retrospectively, when playing the emulator!

Content:

Content will continually be added and some changes added when the code is available. Developers range from myself (Content Developer) to a wide range of other designations. The emulator as it stands is not complete [14/01/2010], and amendments are made to the developer server then the developer server is copied over to the play server. Content developers are organised into teams. Jenquai. Progen. Terran. The other systems(incl Red Dragons etc), Items, etc... When content is added or changed it may be the Content Developer in that team has had a little time to spare to add it, or change it to what was envisaged but not able to be done with the old tools.

This is a stress test. It is not an alpha as the content is not yet completed. Programming Developers are implementing coding and finding ways of making things happen. Server Developers are expanding the players numbers. All of this is change, and change is what the stress test is about. There have been two previous stress tests and at the end of every stress test accounts have in history been wiped.

Players in this stress test should be aware as the emulator has yet to reach 'complete' [14/01/2010] then action occurs as soon as what has caused the problem is found. This happens more often than you realise, if its Content then a quick change to the developer server content using tools to restrict the interface, and then tested, will eventually be copied across to fix it, as all the content.

It is my understanding that Programmer developers run their code changes on a programming test server/local before these are copied across, and change documented.

If something severe happens and something may go wrong, then there are backups but these may be a couple of days out of date. In the circumstance you saw here, yes a rollback was done, and yes characters regressed. However, rollbacks are the next-to last resort after all other resources have been explored and after whatever caused the problem has been resolved. If this doesn't occur then it may happen again. Learn by experimentation.

The final resort is a player wipe. Player wipes occur at the last resort.

The emulator is under development, under change. It is for this reason that content will continually be added, over the last year a lot has been added with possibly only 2 instances I remember of there being the next-to or last resort.

[Mortabis]

1. Communication

2. Project Timeline (anticipated wipes, content adding, etc..)

One of the most frustrating things I've ran into, in any MMO i've played is the things that the designers do without worrying about how it effects the people that actually play the game. So giving us a heads up before you make a huge change, or do a character wipe so we know it's coming would be greatly appreciated.

More communication about updates, future plans etc would be a good thing. It seems as though now, we never really hear about what the DEVS have planed. And I know that the devs are busy with RL and that this is a side project, but it seems we hardly hear from them unless something goes wrong.

[Tyran]

Theres a two-sided sword kinda of thing I have been wondering about a long while.

People are playing the stress test like the real game. By the time this game will be ready many people may have overdone the game because including all the wipes theyve played the game too much.

Players may be insufficiently forewarned of how intensely playing the stress test will affect their playing of the released game. I dunno how other ppl think about this. It is good that there is a stress test but it rly feels like a beta since so much is playable already.

I may just be jakkering at nothing here since probably a lot of players dont give a **** and just want to play no matter what.

Other than the above it's really not easy to tell what the team is doing wrong because its not clear what theyre exactly doing.

So I guess it would be cool for us to know what is happening, monthly update list in a language that everyone can understand would be awesome.

[Asmir[IS]]

Personally I would like to see a focus on bug fixes of what is currently in game before adding new content. When things stay broken then it just adds to the problem when new content is added. If something is broke, and new stuff is added then how can we make an educated assessment on whether it was an old bug, or what was just added that broke the code?

We all like to see new shiny things in game We also like to know that bug reports we send in are looked at, known, addressed and that we are not repeating ourselves over and over.

While I am not a programmer, I do spend a lot of time listening to folks who are and as part of the team am able to address this one fairly accurately. Bugs are far from forgotten or ignored. The real issue lies in a limited number of developers doing their best to spread limited free time and meet the goals of the area they are working on. In a games project development cycle, of which I have experience in working with, the initial phase of a project is getting large portions of the game working for the most part with a greater focus on server stability. In most financed organizations, this isn't done publicly but in a closed environment. This is the current phase of this project as it stands.

What makes it different is that the team, some time ago, decided to use public stress tests in order to evaluate how they were progressing. Initially there were 2 stress tests, or so I believe since they happened before I came along, and once the needed data retrieved from them they were closed. When ST3, or Stress Test 3 began around last march or so, the team realized how much fun the folks playing were having and simply didn't have it in their hearts to take it away and it is still running as we speak. I don't know when, could be a month or a year, but I know there will likely be at least one more Stress Test.

As such, we are still in that kind of mode with the focus being on major functionality of the game coming together and bugs being squashed when it is destructive enough to prove a danger to server stability. If time permits, some bugs that are either detrimental to game balance or just completely wrong might get a once over and might even get fixed or hopefully improved.

Major bug squashing like most of you are looking for, most of you patiently I might add, begins during the Alpha phase of development. At this point in the production process most major areas are working fairly well and the server is pretty darn solid. Sadly an odd thing happens at this point however, fixing bugs starts out creating more bugs than it fixes. Eventually it works itself out and as the Dev team starts running out of bugs the production nears Beta. During the Alpha Phase of any games development, just to help you get an idea of the scope of how much work is still to be done, there are usually in the neighborhood of 16000 bugs to be fixed. This is normal and with a normal fully dedicated team takes 3-6 months depending upon the complexity of the game.

Were so far away from Beta at this point I won't bore you folks with any more details and if there is any misinformation in this assessment that anyone else on the team can shed by all means correct me.

As for knowing if your bug submissions are being used? If they aren't now they will be. If they are duplicated, which is a pain sure but not a bad thing all the time, many times folks might have something they see differently that better explains the bug making it easier to fix. At this stage of development there are two things you can do, ask a beta if its been bugged and if you don't get an answer, I've added a new section to the forums when I rebuilt them that our regular players can use to post them. Look through that and see if its there. If not, add it, if you find it and have additional info to add, than reply to it.

Regarding communications between Player and Team Members, we are aware of the issues there and I along with others in the future will be working on improving those relations. We've already seen great improvements with the addition of our growing Game Master Team led by AFvet, who has been doing a wonderful job I might add. I also have many ideas about how to better use the forums which I will be spending more time on now that I'm back from some time away.

I hope this answers your questions to some extent. Thanks to all of you for your patience and providing a reason for the EnB Emulator Team a reason to do what we do. Without our players it would be a pointless venture since your enjoyment is the only pay we get. Which for most of us is more than enough. (Probably all of us but I can't speak for everyone now, can I.)

[Asmir[IS]]

I understand what Mneme is tryin to accomplish here...

He doesnt want any personal attacks against the devs, we all know they are doing a good job.

I think what he is aiming for in Constructive Criticism

E.g

Do you feel the team could keep you more informed on issues

Do you feel the dev team are focusing on the wrong things?

Now i understand no one wants to give the devs a hard time, but some feedback is good, even if it is bad..

Mneme is not trying to incite a flame war or anything, just get some good contructive feedback for the team.

If you have issues with anonimity feel free to post a PM to me and i will post your feedback without naming names..

Thanks

I agree Slayer, for the most part anyway, lol.

[Asmir[IS]]

What Whitelighter is referring to could be resolved with a community rep. I'm not sure what became of Ayusaki but those shoes could be filled again.

I am working on that as we speak. I'm just trying to find a smaller pair of shoes so I don't get blisters. Also I was away for a bit which has slowed this down considerably.

[bondct]

ok here is my .02 in regards to this topic

1. Communication

2. Communication

3. Communication

We need to know what is going on and have updates constantly... I have posted a number of valid questions in regards to guild controls that have gone unanswered. Is it broken or not... who knows, as no one is saying, but someone must have coded it so someone knows...

Also, I think that we need to rethink the term players... No one here is a player... we are testers and just as much a part of the development team as any coder is. As such we need to be treated accordingly.... and again communication is the key here. To be effective we need to know what is going on and in game actions by coders should revolve around what the game needs to do at that time, because "There are no Players"

[Janeway]

My Real thought on this is make the gates stable and start with the basics like getting cygni working etc before adding in anything or moving on to other things. A puzzle is much easier if you have the boarder to start it with .... otherwise it could take longer than you want it too.... just my 2 cents.

[Asmir[IS]]

ok here is my .02 in regards to this topic

1. Communication

2. Communication

3. Communication

We need to know what is going on and have updates constantly... I have posted a number of valid questions in regards to guild controls that have gone unanswered. Is it broken or not... who knows, as no one is saying, but someone must have coded it so someone knows...

Also, I think that we need to rethink the term players... No one here is a player... we are testers and just as much a part of the development team as any coder is. As such we need to be treated accordingly.... and again communication is the key here. To be effective we need to know what is going on and in game actions by coders should revolve around what the game needs to do at that time, because "There are no Players"

Hmm... I think your way to worried about the term player, just an opinion, and for the most part, unless your carrying a beta or beta+ tag, then your doing whats needed in a stress test environment by simply being here and adding stress to the game server by playing... oops... sorry... testing. . The beta team does the majority of the directed testing and bugging though I'm not sure that's ever been explained very well or at least clarified..

As for communications, I've already expressed that its being looked into, though I can't promise it will become what you hope or expect, it will improve. My interactions in this topic since I've only gotten back today and have spent a good deal of time going through threads and so far posting in this one should be some, if only a little, evidence of that. Before I had to leave on short notice, I had been looking into ways to better communicate with our... umm... *sigh* testers and now that I've returned I'll be back on it.

As for the coders themselves, you'll likely be seeing less from them so they can spend more time doing what they do best, coding, which is as it should be. This doesn't mean your concerns won't be heard or will be ignored. The idea is to help them focus their energy. Of course if they want to interact it is fine and entirely up to them. Some likely will, some may not but take no offense by that.

Finally, as I run into questions in the forums, I will try to find answers or someone to provide them, even yours , things just take time when there's a lot going on as there was when I had to go for a bit. Please don't take any offense to my answers here. Your concerns are certainly valid and important, and I'm just kidding with the player thing. I'm very serious about the project and the community but I like to have fun too.

[Klyde]

Ok, here we go...

1. More communication, I agree (tidbits will do, just more)

2. Since we want more, more, more, we also want to pay to play, yeah thats right, I said it.

3. We are here to help "stress test" and to help find bugs, 300 of us finding bugs is way better than 10 of them even if some info gets duped.

4. refer to number 2... as we all want more info, more transparancy, more more more, pay up or shut up.

5. We all get to play this wonderful game again after EA closed it, due to the work and determination of the guys/gals (past& present) that have seen fit to spend their free time working on this project.

5a. Call me a fanboy etc I don't care.. these constructive type threads never seem very constructive imo. And those people that start them usually have an agenda in mind.

6. Final idea... pay up or shutup. So far it's been a free ride and I don't think anyone here has a right to demand anything from the Devs that do all of this for free, as in they don't get paid for it. I really don't care what you may think of my post either, as you are not paying for the right to tell me.

7. Chill out, relax, drink a beer, then dig deep and pay up, or shut up.

[Asmir[IS]]

My Real thought on this is make the gates stable and start with the basics like getting cygni working etc before adding in anything or moving on to other things. A puzzle is much easier if you have the boarder to start it with .... otherwise it could take longer than you want it too.... just my 2 cents.

Different folks work on different things and different things have different production priorities and sometimes, when folks can't get together due to mistiming or whatever, they just wing it and work on what they can. With the limited development resources we have available, this is what you get unfortunately, but if we stop and look at what the game was this time last year, it is really amazing how much has been accomplished with so little.

[Moche]

i got the email notices for ST 1 and 2 but skipped them... so i came in as a player when ST 3 began, i do a pretty good job of not demanding anything but part of what i was suggesting is that... on our old forums we had talk of devs trying to start ballance the ecconomy so now the cost of things is based on their mineral values or some such. well without having all of the navs populated with asteroids and/or mobs and not having all the mining resources populated with actual content and all the mobs having apropriate drops.... why on earth are we adjusting prices of resources? the cart seems to have gotten ahead of the horse, so i was suggesting the devs find a more systematic approach because there are some things that need to be done before others.

as for the payup bit... well alot of people do or did donate enough that this project could run for months without another donation last i heard and they cannot require a payment or the lawyers would get involved.

[Daywolf]

BTW, shouldn't it be something like "The things that the dev team are doing wrong." ??

But then I'm not a writer

*snicker*

Regarding communication, I give them a 10/10! Or at least a 9.5... so not to inflate any egos hehe

Though I request very little (very), I have asked the very tough technical questions, and responses were always swift and accurate.

Of course no one has time to explain every detail regarding development issues, that does take a lot of time and can easily become redundant with so many repeat questions that often forum search can answer... well back before the wipe But having been around a many of projects, at least what I note is that necessary information is always provided, and thus on a grade curve in comparison, well they get high marks.

If you want info, I think your best bet is to ask.

[StarSeekerVDS]

No. "Team" is singular. A team does something. The people on the team do something.

[Daywolf]

Oh, you're from NY, that explains it. Didn't catch that before.. heh

[StarSeekerVDS]

What, New Yorkers know their grammar better?

[Daywolf]

Having had a number of friends fresh out of NY and NJ, it’s noticeable that at times they phrase things differently. When written, if one could imagine the heavy NY dialect, the phrasing would fit for someone from the east coast.

[StarSeekerVDS]

Yes, I've noticed that. Those from the northeast tend to use language more like British English than the rest of the country.

[ghent96]

wellllll, back on topic... "What is the team doing wrong that may negatively impact the game?"

Tough question, because the dev team has done a lot of good, but having been a dev here before, I have a different perspective than most community members:

- communications - This has gotten better, but has plagued the dev team since this project started... what, over 3 years ago now? Some devs are just busy actually working, and don't have time, or just forget (like I often did, out of humility or absentmindedness either one) to toot their own horn so to speak and relay to the forums what they've been doing. We used to have a dev blog, here - http://enbdevteam.blogspot.com - but no one really used it much, including me. My apologies to the community for the part I played in lack of good communications in the past. :/

- sequestering - some devs just sit on Teamspeak and chat only within their own little closed circle and commit what I call ideological inbreeding. They don't listen to the community, or other devs.

- hostility - some devs have been guilty in the past of being very hostile, even vindictive when confronted with ideas and proposals for content and directions contrary to their own. Some devs have been hostile to other devs, or to community members. This is probably why some in the community are afraid, as a previous poster here suggested, to voice strong or contrary opinions about EnB.

- politics - some devs have been overly political, jealous, prideful, etc, etc, and have gotten into some nasty dealings against each other in the past, to gang up on other devs they don't like to kick them out, or just annoy the piss out of them unti they quit. There has been nearly a complete turnover of devs since the start. Think about it... almost 100% of those that started EnBemu have left, and some were actually denied re-entry after they came back from inactivity. None have been recognized for their hard work.

- spineless - the Team as a whole has not taken a clearly defined stand or enforced their stand on certain important issues to our game community. Issues like macro'ing, foul language, multi'ing, money... The recent stand against macro'ing is commendable. The open and ongoing debate about multi'ing is good, but we need a stand against it. A lack of proper censorship in chat, and even swear words in NPC dialogue leave us very vulnerable to FCC violations, offending players and losing players. EnB needs to be family friendly, and kid friendly. Money... this issue keeps coming up way too often, for way too long. Clamp down. Firmly establish the "LAW" here that EnBemu is free in all regards, no subscriptions, no rewards, NOTHING but donations of free will for "a server" and nothing at all game-related.

- playing - many devs both now and since the project started spend a majority of their time playing in-game rather than dev'ing. I took great offense to this while I was a dev, and never went in-game, not even to visually inspect placements (I knew this was minor, and could be done much later on at a more complete stage), but some devs "live" in-game, and while they think they are doing their "work" by maninpulating and positioning certain content objects, or checking a chat tree... they get distracted, and are "playing" not working. Checking object positions and chat trees or vendors is the job of beta testers and players, not devs.

- inflexibility - if a content dev is bored or burned out typing in item stats, buffs, chat trees, or whatnot, and wants to try making a new item, or new sector, they should have the freedom to do this. Originally the dev team had pretty much complete freedom, and we acted like a real team, and respected each other and helped each other out. We had to, because we didn't really have any tools back then, and were often working directly in the DB. Later, as more devs came in, and more structure was laid down, and more top-down oppression of workflow and creativity occurred, the team sucked. There was no freedom. There was no team. Petty bickering happened way too much, and devs got overly territorial of their own little areas. Devs couldn't even fix other devs' bugs even if they were urgent and game-breaking. Devs secretely overwrote or undid each other's work.

- subjective backstory interpretation - some devs pick only certain favorite pieces of EnB's backstory to follow, according to what they want, and do not look at the entire backstory to see what really makes sense for the game. They choose their bias or their favorite, over storyline and content that makes the most sense for backstory, history, gameplay value, player interest. This was a major hot arguement point some time ago while making a new game map and deciding on new sectors and content, but is also still very important for some revisions and changes to "original" EnB content that didn't fit right that was added by late EA devs that came in near the end.

- forced client updates - this is annoying and an inconvenience to players. Some want to change their keyboard layout. Some (like me) want to have mods installed, like all the extra moons around saturn or tattoos or decals or new music or other new stuff as it may come. This is "impossible/impractical" as long as the client force-updates via the N7 launcher. Players are inconvenienced to find other ways of copying back files or launching the game "manually". Make client updates optional, and host up downloadable patches as another option.

[Mimir[IS]]

wellllll, back on topic... "What is the team doing wrong that may negatively impact the game?"

Tough question, because the dev team has done a lot of good, but having been a dev here before, I have a different perspective than most community members:

- communications - This has gotten better, but has plagued the dev team since this project started... what, over 3 years ago now? Some devs are just busy actually working, and don't have time, or just forget (like I often did, out of humility or absentmindedness either one) to toot their own horn so to speak and relay to the forums what they've been doing. We used to have a dev blog, here - http://enbdevteam.blogspot.com - but no one really used it much, including me. My apologies to the community for the part I played in lack of good communications in the past. :/

- sequestering - some devs just sit on Teamspeak and chat only within their own little closed circle and commit what I call ideological inbreeding. They don't listen to the community, or other devs.

- hostility - some devs have been guilty in the past of being very hostile, even vindictive when confronted with ideas and proposals for content and directions contrary to their own. Some devs have been hostile to other devs, or to community members. This is probably why some in the community are afraid, as a previous poster here suggested, to voice strong or contrary opinions about EnB.

- politics - some devs have been overly political, jealous, prideful, etc, etc, and have gotten into some nasty dealings against each other in the past, to gang up on other devs they don't like to kick them out, or just annoy the piss out of them unti they quit. There has been nearly a complete turnover of devs since the start. Think about it... almost 100% of those that started EnBemu have left, and some were actually denied re-entry after they came back from inactivity. None have been recognized for their hard work.

- spineless - the Team as a whole has not taken a clearly defined stand or enforced their stand on certain important issues to our game community. Issues like macro'ing, foul language, multi'ing, money... The recent stand against macro'ing is commendable. The open and ongoing debate about multi'ing is good, but we need a stand against it. A lack of proper censorship in chat, and even swear words in NPC dialogue leave us very vulnerable to FCC violations, offending players and losing players. EnB needs to be family friendly, and kid friendly. Money... this issue keeps coming up way too often, for way too long. Clamp down. Firmly establish the "LAW" here that EnBemu is free in all regards, no subscriptions, no rewards, NOTHING but donations of free will for "a server" and nothing at all game-related.

- playing - many devs both now and since the project started spend a majority of their time playing in-game rather than dev'ing. I took great offense to this while I was a dev, and never went in-game, not even to visually inspect placements (I knew this was minor, and could be done much later on at a more complete stage), but some devs "live" in-game, and while they think they are doing their "work" by maninpulating and positioning certain content objects, or checking a chat tree... they get distracted, and are "playing" not working. Checking object positions and chat trees or vendors is the job of beta testers and players, not devs.

- inflexibility - if a content dev is bored or burned out typing in item stats, buffs, chat trees, or whatnot, and wants to try making a new item, or new sector, they should have the freedom to do this. Originally the dev team had pretty much complete freedom, and we acted like a real team, and respected each other and helped each other out. We had to, because we didn't really have any tools back then, and were often working directly in the DB. Later, as more devs came in, and more structure was laid down, and more top-down oppression of workflow and creativity occurred, the team sucked. There was no freedom. There was no team. Petty bickering happened way too much, and devs got overly territorial of their own little areas. Devs couldn't even fix other devs' bugs even if they were urgent and game-breaking. Devs secretely overwrote or undid each other's work.

- subjective backstory interpretation - some devs pick only certain favorite pieces of EnB's backstory to follow, according to what they want, and do not look at the entire backstory to see what really makes sense for the game. They choose their bias or their favorite, over storyline and content that makes the most sense for backstory, history, gameplay value, player interest. This was a major hot arguement point some time ago while making a new game map and deciding on new sectors and content, but is also still very important for some revisions and changes to "original" EnB content that didn't fit right that was added by late EA devs that came in near the end.

- forced client updates - this is annoying and an inconvenience to players. Some want to change their keyboard layout. Some (like me) want to have mods installed, like all the extra moons around saturn or tattoos or decals or new music or other new stuff as it may come. This is "impossible/impractical" as long as the client force-updates via the N7 launcher. Players are inconvenienced to find other ways of copying back files or launching the game "manually". Make client updates optional, and host up downloadable patches as another option.

Wow!! Explains loads for me. Before the crash of the last server my user number was 69. Great bunch of devs in the early days. Was not afraid to say anything or send some suggestion or tool that may help with the development.

By the way what happened to Razorwing? And I used to get e-mail updates as to the progress.

[Sydokun]

wow all i can say is wow.

[Guest Satanicexhile]

Wow!! Explains loads for me. Before the crash of the last server my user number was 69. Great bunch of devs in the early days. Was not afraid to say anything or send some suggestion or tool that may help with the development.

By the way what happened to Razorwing? And I used to get e-mail updates as to the progress.

[Guest Satanicexhile]

Razorwing is back he will be ingame and working on the project! thanks for asking the E@B team