If Pvp Were Added - How To Make It Fun For All

[Algaron [BTL]]

Well now you're talkin'

No I agree with you. When the big day comes, there will be the inevitable drop off in the Player base. I don't think it will quite as dire as you predict however. People will understand this one will probably be the last one, and the game development has made great strides in coming close to what we expect and remember from Live. Who knows, perhaps they will let us keep 1 L150 too as well, so I suspect the exodus may be more like a trickle.

However I don't agree with your assessment that people will rush to complete 150 just to get into PvP. I wouldn't mind doing PvP when I hit L150, but I have lots of other things that I would want to do before I crossed that bridge. I look at it in the same light as getting faction for Blackbeard's Wake. Players that rushed to get faction for BBW, will surely own all the drones and ores in the sector for a brief period of time, but that will even out over time. No one will be able to enter BBW for the first little while because no one has the faction to get in (save for rd faction bug). Does that make BBW any less viable because no one is using the sector at that moment?

I don't think it makes the sector less viable or attractive because no one is there. It is available content, ready to use when the players are. I also don't agree that ALL other content needs to be finished before implementing the PvP option. As far as straight up content or coding is concerned, there would be a lot less work to code a command to activate PvP [/pvp on:off], or to dust off the Arena and plop it back in Slayton. The work will be in creating the NPC to run the event and designing the PvP only devices for rewards. PvP will not be on the top of the list for content waiting to be implemented either, so I think your concerns about owning the Arena are unfounded.

I tried to address the issue you had with noobs leaving the start sector and getting ganked, by suggesting players needed to be 150. That players needed to activate PvP before they could engage in PvP. That's both players btw - I cant attack you if you aren't flagged as well. I have also pointed out that there should be in essence 2 ways to PvP. The Arena, where players may duel or form a group, and fight for rewards and the rest of the Universe.

I see it his way. First we have open sector PvP. There will be no need to create a separate extra closed sector just for PvP, and all of the coding required to create the sector with mobs and navs and other objects or assets. I disagree with those who feel it needs to be a closed sector. The Universe at large would be the playing field for PvP. This would lend itself to mobs (which are already in place) attacking PvPer's while in battle adding to the fun. Also the added benefit for PvE players to grab a beverage and popcorn and watch the battle ensue. Something that can not be done via a closed system.

I have mentioned this all before but is worth repeating. Certain conditions and rules must be met before anyone can PvP in an open sector.

1. Players needs to be L150. (There will be no situation where a CL50 toon will ever be able to attack a lower level player)
2. All players must enable PvP to be in PvP mode. (Players will not be forced into participating in PvP, it's at the Players discretion)
3. Disengaging PvP will trigger a cooldown timer. I have suggested 5-30mins, once PvP is disengaged it can not be activated again until the cooldown completes.
(Players will not be able to attack other players and then switch off their flag to avoid retribution.)
4. No damage to equipment or XP debt will be incurred because of a loss in a PvP battle.

The Arena on the other hand would be where organized battles would happen.

1. PvP flags could be disabled when entering the Arena and activated when the battle begins.
(I can't remember how this was handled in Live, I only suggest this to avoid the unscrupulous player who decides they can't wait until everyone is ready to begin.)
2. A Pick list in the Arena NPC's talk tree will enable groups to choose between group setup. 1v1, 2v2, or a full group of 6v6. Rewards would be commensurate with group
size. I would suggest a choice of either a cash reward or some kind of token currency to purchase PvP Items.
3. The battles could be a timed event perhaps, lasting only a certain length of time before the event is declared a draw and PvP is disabled.
4. Tournaments could be set up in the future to allow for Guild v Guild battles.
5. When other tags are implemented, they could be used to indicate PvP achievements - eg. 10 battles in a row with out losing would award the player the [Ironman] tag, or could be level and rank based on your wins. So much potential for this in the future, and would make PvP attractive to a wider player base.

I don't suggest we fire up the Arena tomorrow, however, I think regular open sector PvP could be implemented without a great deal of trouble, as there would be no content to add immediately, just coding to enable players to fight each other. (PvP items could be added later, and some already exist. I think Phorlaug was championing PvP items)

Again I must reiterate, there should be NO impact on the rest of the EnB community at all. It will work like any other high level content in the game. If you decide to do Fishbowl, your decision won't affect my game play in the least.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1336684505' post='57639']
Mimir, I don't think people want PvP because other games have it. From my perspective at least, this game, with all the different skills that the classes bring to the table, has the potential to be a blast in PvP (no pun intended). No need to wait for 150 to PvP either. And, once and for all, the people who go ingame and brag about how tough class X or class Y is can finally prove it (or prove how much they suck at PvP, lol). Given the sheer amount of gear in this game, who really is the best? What do you equip in your device slots? What buffs are relaly important? Can you afford to swap out a device that gives better deflects against a damage type during combat? We can find out...
[/quote]

Thank you !
Vitaes, If I could give that Post/comment any more +1's I sure would !
I envy the beta's who may have that opportunity on the DEV server to test play that. (hint hint )

[url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/user/22038-algaron/"][color=#225985]Algaron[/color][/url] My first draft of the Orion PvP Zone had a sector for PvP Level 75-100 and L150 could Not enter.
The images are on another PC, but it looked something like the Thumbnail.
4
[attachment=1546:Orionsbow fin.jpg]

[Mimir[IS]]

I'm just trying to show the other side of the coin here.

I see only a handful actively promoting PvP in this game. I think there is a fear that if it was really promoted and definitively stated that EnB is going PvP it would be almost as bad as picking a W day and posting it and talking about it in game.

But I could be wrong.

[Terrell [BT]]

So long as PvP is optional, and Opt-in, I could live with it, though I'd likely choose not to PvP.

[Algaron [BTL]]

[quote name='Vitaes' timestamp='1336683911' post='57637']
The best way to eliminate flags is not to have them. Flagging would not be needed anyway if you get a whole sector for PvP.
[/quote]

The problem with having a whole sector without flags just for PvP, is that anyone could waltz in there? Mimir and others had concerns about some Adept accidently entering the sector and being annihilated. There will already be a sector or area for dedicated PvP - The Arena. No I think flagging for PvP will be necessary regardless of whether or not you had a dedicated sector or not. A flag will be needed to turn on and off the timer.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1336685542' post='57643']
So long as PvP is optional, and Opt-in, I could live with it, though I'd likely choose not to PvP.
[/quote]

Terrell, I would love to have you in my corner as My JE, It would be fun and theres nothing to loose.
Heart pounding Thrills !

[alurra [Fmr. ADV]]

For me, I think PvP is one of the single worst ideas I have heard for this game. The ONLY reason I played it back in the day was because it satisfied my SciFi geek urges and I didn't have to deal with a flock of kiddies that wanted to just 'bully' the new person.

If those who want PvP want PvP, then give them a sector to have PvP. However, I would suggest there be nothing of any interest to any other player that doesn't want PvP. As in, no roid fields, no spawns to get loot only gear, no new navs or planets to explore....

I know I don't speak for the masses here. I am, however, willing to bet there are a lot of 'old timers' like myself who feel this same way. If the game goes PvP, I won't play anymore. It really is that simple. I will miss it, but I will move on, just as I did when it went Sunset.

Just do try and remember that I think a lot of those paying the 'bills' around here are adults, and not the kids that stumbled on this and want it to be more like WoW or more like Eve or more like .... etc etc etc....

If you want a game that is more like WoW or more like Eve or more like ... Go play it...

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1336685624' post='57644']
The problem with having a whole sector without flags just for PvP, is that anyone could waltz in there? Mimir and others had concerns about some Adept accidently entering the sector and being annihilated. There will already be a sector or area for dedicated PvP - The Arena. No I think flagging for PvP will be necessary regardless of whether or not you had a dedicated sector or not. A flag will be needed to turn on and off the timer.
[/quote]

Big red letters across the screen saying "YOU ARE ENTERING A PVP ZONE, YOU WILL BE ATTACKED BY ENEMY PLAYERS IF YOU USE THIS GATE CONFIRM/ABORT"

Problem solved I reckon.

[Algaron [BTL]]

Just curious Alurra, how will PvP affect you in ANY way? It's optional. How can anyone be bullied at all? Hmm? You can't be attacked if you aren't flagged. Period. It's you own decision whether or not you play PvP. It's like someone saying I quit EnB because I have to play in Fishbowl. It's just nonsense.

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='alurra' timestamp='1336686387' post='57646']
For me, I think PvP is one of the single worst ideas I have heard for this game. The ONLY reason I played it back in the day was because it satisfied my SciFi geek urges and I didn't have to deal with a flock of kiddies that wanted to just 'bully' the new person.

If those who want PvP want PvP, then give them a sector to have PvP. However, I would suggest there be nothing of any interest to any other player that doesn't want PvP. As in, no roid fields, no spawns to get loot only gear, no new navs or planets to explore....

I know I don't speak for the masses here. I am, however, willing to bet there are a lot of 'old timers' like myself who feel this same way. If the game goes PvP, I won't play anymore. It really is that simple. I will miss it, but I will move on, just as I did when it went Sunset.

Just do try and remember that I think a lot of those paying the 'bills' around here are adults, and not the kids that stumbled on this and want it to be more like WoW or more like Eve or more like .... etc etc etc....

If you want a game that is more like WoW or more like Eve or more like ... Go play it...
[/quote]

Id like to point out that being a PvPer does not mean one is a childish griefer, just saying.
I sort of resent the label, being a PvPer myself.

Personally I PvP for the challenge of fighting something not governed by an exploitable/gameable AI. There is not a Mob AI in the world that can compete with the adaptability and ingenuity of a human player. Edited May 10, 2012 by Ryle

[HellHasArrived]

Well as to the weaker getting killed by the stronger just because they can... Now this may not be a good idea, but in the target window it shows a player strength compared to yours (i.e pathetic, easy, even, hard). Using that to gauge whether you can attack the other person.

[Algaron [BTL]]

Forget stronger vs weaker. Make it so all toons need to be CL 50 or L150. Problem solved. I don't want to accidently waste some L75, because they got too close while I was killing a mob or another PvP player. No it's best to save PvP content for when you have maxxed out your class. This issue has been brought up before. I thought it had been addressed.

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1336687571' post='57651']
Forget stronger vs weaker. Make it so all toons need to be CL 50 or L150. Problem solved. I don't want to accidently waste some L75, because they got too close while I was killing a mob or another PvP player. No it's best to save PvP content for when you have maxxed out your class. This issue has been brought up before. I thought it had been addressed.
[/quote]

Either that or specific zones for specific combat levels. Live had separate arenas sorted by CL, if you remember. But yes the high end zone should most def be a 135+ entry requirement.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1336687571' post='57651']
Forget stronger vs weaker. Make it so all toons need to be CL 50 or L150. Problem solved. I don't want to accidently waste some L75, because they got too close while I was killing a mob or another PvP player. No it's best to save PvP content for when you have maxxed out your class. This issue has been brought up before. I thought it had been addressed.
[/quote]

It was addressed by a very small few. You think it is a done deal already. I think it should be open to everyone to weigh in on the subject.

[alurra [Fmr. ADV]]

[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1336686769' post='57648']
Just curious Alurra, how will PvP affect you in ANY way? It's optional. How can anyone be bullied at all? Hmm? You can't be attacked if you aren't flagged. Period. It's you own decision whether or not you play PvP. It's like someone saying I quit EnB because I have to play in Fishbowl. It's just nonsense.
[/quote]

There was PvP back in live. It was in the Arena. Why are you and others like yourself so intent on turning the ENTIRE EnB universe into a PvP "arena"? Why try to implement or write new code to satisfy this need, when there is code already existing for this purpose?

Why are we having this disucssion about implementing PvP when the code we currently have is so bugged at times that it crashes the server? Why are we NOT here discussing ways to help the dev team clean up the existing code and get the errors we have now corrected and get everything that is in existance now running properly?

The title of this thread is PvP how to make it fun for all. I am stating my opinion, of which i'm entitled to. I don't like nor want PvP.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1336686984' post='57650']
Well as to the weaker getting killed by the stronger just because they can... Now this may not be a good idea, but in the target window it shows a player strength compared to yours (i.e pathetic, easy, even, hard). Using that to gauge whether you can attack the other person.
[/quote]

+1, It could be judged by level 75 and 99 (100) hull strenght ??

[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1336686608' post='57647']
Big red letters across the screen saying "YOU ARE ENTERING A PVP ZONE, YOU WILL BE ATTACKED BY ENEMY PLAYERS IF YOU USE THIS GATE CONFIRM/ABORT"

Problem solved I reckon.
[/quote]

The zone or sectors can be design to benefit each of Races/classes attributes making it very diverse, Balancing and challenging.
[url="http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa359/Phorth/Alnilam20Desc.jpg"]http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa359/Phorth/Alnilam20Desc.jpg[/url]


4

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='alurra' timestamp='1336688033' post='57654']
There was PvP back in live. It was in the Arena. Why are you and others like yourself so intent on turning the ENTIRE EnB universe into a PvP "arena"? Why try to implement or write new code to satisfy this need, when there is code already existing for this purpose?

Why are we having this disucssion about implementing PvP when the code we currently have is so bugged at times that it crashes the server? Why are we NOT here discussing ways to help the dev team clean up the existing code and get the errors we have now corrected and get everything that is in existance now running properly?

The title of this thread is PvP how to make it fun for all. I am stating my opinion, of which i'm entitled to. I don't like nor want PvP.
[/quote]

Not the entire ENB universe. A sector or two, and some arenas. Id be perfectly satisfied with that. I have no aspirations personally to a 100 percent PvP game everywhere, though it might be fun to chase/hunt a guildwar enabled JD all over Sol.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1336598009' post='57564']
...
As for grieving and ganking, my goodness , its PVP for pete's sake. If you don't want to get ganked... don't PvP!?! Of course the strong will pick on the weak!
[/quote]

The above quote sums it up for me.

[Algaron [BTL]]

Well I am trying to work with everyone here. And no Mimir I don't think it's a done deal. It's just that I have mentioned this a few times already. The concern for those who don't want PvP is that there will be people flying around ganking low level toons just because they can. I have suggested it be optional to flag yourself for PvP. It has to be turned on as it won't be PvP by default. So some low level toon leaving the noob starting sector, won't meet with an untimely death at the hands of some overzealous 150.

Is that not a reasonable solution?

The concern for people who don't want PvP is that the stronger players will pick on weaker players and make life miserable for them. Again i suggest all toon have the same CL or maxxed toon so that won't be the case but is instead a test of skill - not combat level.

Is that not a reasonable solution?

The concern for people who don't want PvP is that it will take up valuable time and resources to create a separate sector complete with navs and mobs. Again I suggested that perhaps the easiest and best way to code this would just be to enable a PvP flag instead. You can fight anywhere against mobs as well to add to the fun of it. You can be chased down across sectors, you can sneak intoa pack of mobs and let them turn on your pursuers. So many more options and tactics when playing in the whole universe as opposed to a 100km by 100km box. This would enable 2 types of PvP - Tournament and regular PvP. Regular PvP can be coding relatively easy without having to add a lot of objects and assets and taking up the devs time doing it. Tournament Arena can be coded later when the devs have a chance to clean up the existing code and fix all the bugs we want them too.

Is that not a reasonable solution?

[Algaron [BTL]]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336688449' post='57657']
The above quote sums it up for me.
[/quote]

Of course we were discussing your concerns about ganking weren't we? And I am trying to address you concerns, and yet you try to throw this back in my face?

Classy.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Algaron' timestamp='1336689358' post='57660']
Of course we were discussing your concerns about ganking weren't we? And I am trying to address you concerns, and yet you try to throw this back in my face?

Classy.
[/quote]

I won't fight with you in public any more...if you want to take it private let's do it. it was your answer a fear I expressed about PvP, you made it sound like I was some idiot for thinking that the strong in a game have a right to pick on anyone they choose in the PvP area.
No rules, no limits open PvP. Enjoy the game, I'm sure you will get bored and move on soon enough. Too bad there will be others that may just move on and you won't have anyone to "Gank" and or "Grief"

Classy? you said it dude, I didn't make you say it.

[HellHasArrived]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1336688276' post='57655']
+1, It could be judged by level 75 and 99 (100) hull strenght ??



The zone or sectors can be design to benefit each of Races/classes attributes making it very diverse, Balancing and challenging.
[url="http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa359/Phorth/Alnilam20Desc.jpg"]http://i1193.photobu...nilam20Desc.jpg[/url]


4
[/quote]
I like the zone idea, like have areas where you have mobs that are alligned with your race... Could be interesting.

[Algaron [BTL]]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1336689890' post='57662']
I won't fight with you in public any more...if you want to take it private let's do it. it was your answer a fear I expressed about PvP, you made it sound like I was some idiot for thinking that the strong in a game have a right to pick on anyone they choose in the PvP area.
No rules, no limits open PvP. Enjoy the game, I'm sure you will get bored and move on soon enough. Too bad there will be others that may just move on and you won't have anyone to "Gank" and or "Grief"
[/quote]


Well I am not here to fight with anyone either. Its supposed to be a discussion on how to make PvP fun, and yet those who dont want to PvP at all, think I am suggesting some sort of concept where its open season on everyone.

"No rules, no limits open PvP" - I have offered solutions and suggestions already, so either you haven't read what I posted or you have no constructive ideas. What I have talked about is the exact opposite of what you wrote. There are rules, there are limits, and it wouldn't be open PvP by design. I would like it if you commented on that.

Apparently no suggestion to have any kind of PvP is acceptable.
Its just content, and content you need to actively engage in. It's like Agrippa, should we get rid of anything Agrippa because I don't like it or want to have anything to do with it? I know it exists but I don't bother with it, and it doesn't affect ANY aspect of my game play that it exists.

Just like PvP - I, or anyone else for matter, would have to actively seek out PvP to play it. To your concerns about 'ganking' and 'grief', PvP would be a mutual exercise. I would need another PvP player to play with since I wouldn't be able to attack or 'gank' a PvE player at all, regardless of location or level.

[Ryle [N7R]]

[img]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/063/arguecat.png[/img]

[Phorlaug[IS]]

Surprise !! Your actually playing PvP Now. Everyone breath......

What The PvP community is saying we would like to have some PvP, understand that they do not want to bog down or steal all the DEV's time or resources.
They don't want ANY of the PvE players to suffer in ANY way. They are just trying to make it easy on the DEVs, effect the PvE in the most minimalist way.
There Is absolutly nothing to loose or gain except some heart pounding excitment And ONLY if You want too. (Period)

I'm going to take a step back from this topic as I hope all of you will for a bit and hope the MOD and DEVs see that we are Discussing a topic and some topic can get heated.

But before I step away, I'm going to make one last comment/statement.
This is the Arena .W3D.
[img]http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s103/phorlaug/W3darena.jpg[/img]

Would you like your entire PvE experiance to be confinded to that ?
Of coarse not. Why would the PvPr want to.
PvP was in Earth and Beyond, for the life of me I can't remember if it was there from beta to day 1
But it was there definitely long before the Vrix.

The PvP people I have been communicating with said they have played in it and enjoyed it once or twice then it was too confining.
The downside was the time limit and content within the arena and you could never do PvP on a wim
or when you wanted to.

Here's another PvP Arena,
[media]http://youtu.be/112jYXWstB8[/media]


Just a little fun guys and girls remember that?

Phorlaug...