If Pvp Were Added - How To Make It Fun For All

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1337801080' post='58168']
The Flag idea, mentioned earlier, where you default to no-PVP, and you have to do something to enable PvP. Flagging system; however, IMO should not be flagged on by shooting another player or hitting him with a AoE skill or debuff. If you're not flagged for PvP, your weapons won't fire on another player, same for a debuffer device and attack skills would have no effect on other players. Make sure that PvP flagging is accident/idiot proof.

Sectors for PvP would be okay, provided said sectors systems are not on the [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/4323-enb-maps-all/"]maps in game resources[/url], which show future sectors to be opened. This means that Epsilon Eridani, Edeinmist Nebula, Sho'da'kan Nebula, Ardus, Neptune, Nebiros, Ishaun Planet, Menorb, and other "to be opened" areas in those maps would be PvE. Now if the devs add additional sectors that aren't already mentioned on those maps for PvP, then I'm cool with it so long as the following occur.[list=1]
[*]The gates to PvP sectors are clearly marked as such. Perhaps it could say PvP zone somewhere in the targeting display in some prominent "you can't miss it" fashion.
[*]There are no PvE items that can only be obtained in the PvP sectors. There could be PvE equipment that drops in the PvP sector, provided it's tradeable outside the PvP zone or can be obtained in PvE.
[*]None of the PvE sectors or content that would have been put in game are taken away.
[/list]
So if say you had Barnard's Star as a new system and had sectors there that were PvP, I'd have no problem with it so long as the 3 conditions I mentioned before are met. Same if you pick any other star that's not already on the map to be used as PvE. Wolf 359 could be another one, so could Procyon, or Groombridge.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars"]http://en.wikipedia....f_nearest_stars[/url]
[/quote]

[size=4]I'm glad to see some others who think clearly, enter into the "discussion?". I quoted and questioned it as this thread seems to be very one sided...Yes I know
"How To Make It Fun For All", Does this ALL only mean those that want PvP? Don't the PvE players count for something?



I can't see how the PvE players will NOT lose out on development time if the PvP system becomes such a major project as described above.. [/size]



[b] [/b]

[Falstar [MOD]]

You bring up a good point - a "PVP Discussion" that excludes or ignores PVE players isn't a very good discussion.

I've adjusted the title a bit, since PVP is not a sure thing and many things are up in the air. Plus, I would imagine it is a fair way off.

Please just remember to stay civil. It does seem one side is heavily represented - just take it easy on the other. I know this is an emotional topic, but there should not be slighting or insulting.

[Reon]

well, that is kind of the point, making it so that non flagged pvpers can not be attacked and only flagged pvpers can.

Now, I dont think it matters much whether this is a clickable option in your skill window that will be activatable after a certain level or completing a certain quest, or if it is a permanent option that stays after doing a long mission and cannot be undone without completing another long mission. I think the main point of flagged pvp is to be able to have a PVP system without having a seperate server...while keeping noobs and hard core PVE people safe. The flagging is fine as long as you can not flag while in combat, and it should take at least 5 minutes from the time the box is checked untill you can attack another flagged player, and at least that much time after un checking the box before you become immune to PVP. This will prevent much of the greif if a flag system with a check box is used...otherwise people would really abuse the system.

Even if a flag system is never set up, a few dedicated PVP sectors should do nicely. I am fine with there being XP in there, nav points, mobs of all levels(just so long as there are no rare PVE drops), even seperate PVP missions in that sector...I just do not want PVE players to have to go in there if they do not want to. No one would be able to complain about PVP'ers getting explore XP from that area because the XP would be balanced out by the debt and equipment damage that is likely to follow...it would provide incentive for non pvp'ers to try it out in order to go mine, try a new mission, or get some explore...but because there would be no real PVE content in there, there would be no major reason for anyone to go in there if they hate PVP.


EDIT: As I stated in previous posts, PVP should not take priority over what is a mostly PVE game, and skill adjustments to accomidate PVP should be made seperate from PVE...a PVE skill should never be nerfed over PVP concerns on a standard PVE server. Be patient, I am sure the Dev's will get to PVP after this game is restored to its pre sunset status. Edited May 23, 2012 by Reon

[Phorlaug[IS]]

Thank you, Terrell.
I like what you have put forward and that a Non-PvPr also has the PvP peeps in mind. Well said.
What you said is all I was asking for.

I won't pretend that I know how hard or easy it is to put in 2 test sectors with or with out NAVs and with mineable asteroids.
I don't know how hard it is to pick or make a sector and/or mirror it on or in a PvP zone thats already in the EMU (With slight changes if needed).
Maybe it isn't as easy as picking an NPC from the Data base with its AI already in place and just ploping them near a NAV
or asteroid field.
Only the DEVs can tell us how hard or easy it is.

I certainly DON'T want PvP to take up even a Quarter of the DEVs time in its development.
Because realistically there is a little less than 15 percent of the Community that have an interest in PvP and another 5 percent that would like to give it a try, maybe more.
But if the PvP should be as enjoyable as I and others are hoping and the PvE would like it to be.

I have been talking to others about PvP that have not even posted on this topic.
I DO NOT want this PvP to be anything like EVE. God I hate using The "E" word !

Again Thank you Terrell.
Some more positive input from other PvEr would be nice like Mimir said.

[Riz]

If they can make the PvP system that would be implimented work without impacting the enjoyment of PvE I am all for it. I may even flag on a time or two and try it, but as has recently been stated on this thread, E&B is mostly a PvE game, and it does reassure me to hear some of the PvP crowd admitting that, and stating they do not wish to see the PvP overshadow the rest. Thank you guys, I do feel better about it now.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

Heres a question that may of not been asked.
Bare with me for a second.

After you have read all the post of idea's, concerns, remedies and possible added content within PvP.
If you where to play EnB Pvp what would you be or are affraid of ?

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1337966059' post='58230']
Heres a question that may of not been asked.
Bare with me for a second.

After you have read all the post of idea's, concerns, remedies and possible added content within PvP.
If you where to play EnB Pvp what would you be or are affraid of ?
[/quote]

For me (having played other PvP games) it is not so much a "fear" of PvP ...but more what a PvP gaming community becomes.

[Mattsacre]

I'm not "afraid" per say, but I can say what has driven me from other MMO (several with maxxed out and multiple characters, so it was a serious time investment I had in, I say this so you know the level of utter disgust I had to build up to walk away from them.)

Forced content.
Character "career" tracking.

Forced content: Being forced into PvP situations or forced grouping that I didn't wish to enter to either advance my characters skill set, or have access to resources required to advance a crafting skill etc. with raid only drops etc.

A example of this was games like WoW that required you to get a group together to kill some mob or enter some instance etc. to complete a quest to either gain a skill or continue past a player level. It was particulary maddening when some of that content was "old" content and you could never get anyone willing to take the time and expense to travel to that region just to group with you so you could get that stupid little task done, so it took you days of spamming on LFG channels or waiting for a weekend for friends/family to log on to do it.

Character tracking: Being forced to "experience" PvP or even PvE for that matter! In games that promised to have seperate and distinct "tracks" for player types, promising they could cater to both player types with no negative impact between the two (or more), and then after making that promise, immediately break it by blurring the lines and combining content/gear.

A example of this is like EVE and WoW having supposed Raid,PvP and PvE "tracks" and then start blurring the lines right off-the-bat between the 3, with things like:

A. Raid instances located within PvP zones, perhaps you liked Raid but not PvP, you still had to brave the PvP content to even get to the instance were the Raid would take place.
B. Or PvPers would have to do missions/quests within a PvE setting, to gain access to PvP skills/gear or run Raid instances to get some drops to aquire permissions/gear.
C. PvEers having to suffer from PvP griefholes assinine behavior from flagging etc. in what is clearly PvE areas, for the simple reason "because-I-can". The PvPer is so bored or a jerkwad enough to hassle either noobs who don't know better, or know of some exploitable game mechanic to hassle you, when you are clearly busy doing something else, or aren't interested, or the griefer is so pathetic they need to try and agro clearly handycapped fellow players.

C(1). Specific example: EVE: mining a 0.5+ zone, they can SEE you are in a mining barge, or small mining craft, or look at your character history and SP totals and know you don't have even a remote chance of giving them any challenge what-so-ever, and the Ftards go and either rob your jet can, or pop it (there by voiding considerable time and effort on your part), or insure their craft and with deliberation, attack /pod you, knowing police forces will destroy them, but they want the flag/notoriety and don't give a hoot the negative impact it has on your time/effort/game experience.

C(2). Specific example: WoW. Oh man, there are so many meriad in WoW it's hard to pick one, how about one of my personal petpeeves? Crafting, recipes that required drop items only aquirable through either Raiding or PvP, and being unique so YOU had to loot it, or non-unique but if you didn't loot yourself you had to pay exorbident AH prices to aquire. Crafting was suppost to have been on of the "tracks" they promised, but then they made you have to have items from the other "tracks" to advance your skill in crafting.

As always, IF IT CAN BE DONE, IT WILL BE DONE, there are jerks that don't give a flying fig about anyone but themselves, and if there is a way to exploit a situation, they will.

[Reon]

Matt, that post of yours is the main reason I am all for PVP zones, or flagging, but not for a server.

L2 had a really good PVP system I thought, that helped eliminate many of the PVP griefing issues, but there were many other distinct issues with that game. I tried EVE, even beta tested for them...lets just say the community and some of the key game elements are a disaster waiting to happen. WoW, yeah...played with friends, never paid for a subscription...cookie cutter MMO that has too many immature players. I have had similar experiences to the ones you described.

EQ2 had part of their PVP encounters sorted out...their PVP servers were a wreck, but towards the last they got it right after the introductions of battlegrounds. At that time, on full PVE servers, you could go to an arena to PVP against other players on your server, you could duel anyone on your server if they consented and had duels enabled, and you could also select to go to a battlegrounds instance and face other players from any server, including PVP. Winning and earning kills in the battlegrounds earned tokens you could spend on gear that was great for PVP and average for PVE. This kept the lines from being blurred on gear, and allowed you to play against PVP players and win or lose based off of skill, not gear. The best introduction to EQ2 was when they made gear behave differently against other players than it did against PVE...this meant they could do the same with skills...if a weapon was too powerful in PVP, they could nerf it there and not make it suck at PVE. That allowed PVE people to not be hurt by PVP balancing, and it meant the gear designed for PVP was not meant for PVE, so no one would have any reason to ever engage in a PVP activity unless they wanted to.

I think a flagging system will eventually be a nice fair system of play, and in the mean time, one or two large PVP zones with things to do and a range of mobs between lvl 30-60 would allow players to have the PVP experience without hurting gameplay. If the Devs keep the skill balancing seperate between PVP and PVE, and never require PVE players to go into a PVP zone unless they want to.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

I think a Flag system would be fine, but the idea of turning on and off your Tag and seeing a Nearly Incapacitated Progen sitting there for the pickings wouldn't be fair just to be able to turn on your PvP and finish him off.

Having an item in your ships hold signifying you are PvP Flagged the moment you leave the dock and you can not turn PvP off untill you take it out of your hold and put it back in your Vault or Space it. If you space it you will not be able to do PvP ever again.
There could be a mission chain that BOTH the PvE Player and PvP player will get the SAME XP and the reward would be said item for PvP.

OR

I suggested that there be a three sector Race starting area to hone your skills with other Progens, Terrans and Jenquai untill you get the courage and or group to open that can of worms.
Three sectors may be a bit much But maybe 1 Large starting sector for each Race isn't? Then there could be maybe 2 or 3 Open PvP sectors.
Haveing a seperate PvP zone will make it much easier to control what Items are available in the PvP zone. (Current starting Zone(s) Vendor items only?)

So a total of 5-6 PvP sector ? Far less than I originally suggested. There are so many ways that this could be done.
The input from the PvE people is just as important.

[Riz]

[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1338145088' post='58331']...Having an item in your ships hold signifying you are PvP Flagged the moment you leave the dock and you can not turn PvP off untill you take it out of your hold and put it back in your Vault or Space it. If you space it you will not be able to do PvP ever again...[/quote]

I like that idea a lot! Although there would have to be a way (difficult I would imagine) to recover the item in case it was spaced through an honest mistake.

[Mattsacre]

That and the inevitable compaint(s) of "why do I have to take up a vault/hold slot for it....I NEED that space for something" or the actually valid IMO "jeez we progen have so little room already, 1 slot of ammo I have to give up...it stinks" or the "Dang it, I just trashed/sold/spaced item X, why does it have to look so much like item Y?"

Once all the development steps of Arena,sector, zone and then eventual universal flag PvP have been run, and it has been determined that indeed a form of flagging is even implimentable (remember...can't alter the client), then a item in hold for PvP will just be a further source of complaint by players. Just let them flag and have a reasonable off flag timer, or require docking or something equivelant to remove the PvP buff.

If the intent of the PvP item is to keep them from taking a cheese way out of PvP, I can see and understand were you are coming from, but there will have to be a way to regain the item because of above given reasons. And in reality, do they really need to toss it to avoid a wimpy PvP avoidance? All they have to do is: dock, tow, or JD/ Return To Base, or for PW /Self Destruct and tow. Once in base they can wait out any PvP clock, or in case of JD,JE, JS or PS, either cloak or powerdown and wait.

Simply put and as always: IF IT CAN BE DONE, IT WILL BE DONE.

Any system you devise will have something that those without honor will abuse.

[Terrell [BT]]

To turn it on or off, could require visiting an NPC, or a slash command. Whichever is easier for the Devs to do. A slash command could be something like /pvp on or pvp off. If you want a cooldown on /pvp off one can implement it.

[Reon]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1338157880' post='58340']
To turn it on or off, could require visiting an NPC, or a slash command. Whichever is easier for the Devs to do. A slash command could be something like /pvp on or pvp off. If you want a cooldown on /pvp off one can implement it.
[/quote]

I like the visiting an NPC best...at least something like that...why not have a "group shrine" for PVP...when you target the nav it opens a mission window, and you can click if you wish to be flagged for PVP or not. If you choose to be flagged for PVP, it puts a "debuff" on you that stays up as though it was an equipped item debuff, and will not cancel or wear off. With said debuff on you, you will now be attacked by (and be able to attack) other players. If you wish to no longer be flagged, target the nav again. You could possibly prevent griefing at the nav or certain other "safe" spots by keeping a gate turret nearby that will engage anyone who initiates fighting(it would be a pain to code I would imagine, but may be do-able).

Items could be sketchy for the reasons mentioned above. A debuff however, that seems quite manageable, and will alleviate the concerns I had for someone turning off PVP flag right as they are about to die(and other possible exploits and complaining).

[Terrell [BT]]

If there were sector based PvP there would have to be "safe zones" around the gate(s) entering said sector due to players being vulnerable in the time between other players can see you, and the time you can move or do anything (while you're on the map screen). For server wide, with on off flags, then wefts would have to be included.

If it's flagged PvP, I would think that a PvE JE should be able to give a wormhole to a PvP player who wants to go somewhere. I would also think that other support skills, when the PvP enabled player isn't engaged in combat with another player, should apply too. So if a player that's flagged for PvP and a player that's flagged for PvE decide to hunt mobs together, they would be able to work together to do said hunting.

I'm not sure how that would be implemented best but I'd think that even PvP players would have some PvE time and depending on exactly how it's done, not find unflagging and reflagging practical.

[cerberus]

my two cents
the day its added Ill be gone
nuff said

[Ryle [N7R]]

[quote name='Thunderchilde' timestamp='1338401360' post='58382']
my two cents
the day its added Ill be gone
nuff said
[/quote]

Because having a PvP sector in this game that you are under no obligation to participate in has any standing whatsoever on your existing play experience. Nice attitude.

You dont want it so no one else that does can have it right?

Please do explain to me how a PvP sector at all affects you. Edited May 31, 2012 by Ryle

[cerberus]

fair enough not that my comment seems to need any explanation but since you ask ok
my difficulty with pvp goes toward attitude and is reinforced by your response
my attitude affects only me your response suggests that I am in some way affecting you by taking this attitude
this is not the case I care little for pvp but it brings out the worst in people

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='Thunderchilde' timestamp='1338401360' post='58382']
my two cents
the day its added Ill be gone
nuff said
[/quote]
Wow, someone gave him a -1 for stating his personal opinion. Talk about petty. He has his personal opinion, you don't have to agree with it. -1/+1 aren't really supost to be a BOO!/YAY! thing. You award or take away your support/ add your support via that for the content or skill of the post, if they add something valid to the conversation you give them a +1, if they are offensive or a troll etc.you give them a -1, its considered good form when you give them a -1 to say WHY you gave them a -1.

I've stated my past hesitence about PvP, hoped I presented my trepidation in a cogent form while doing so, never felt PvPers should be denighed it either (within the constraints of the client and not negative impact on PvE) and have posted ideas to do just that, give them their "thing" without crapping on my "thing", if its done right I might even try it out! Who knows, maybe all the negative experiences in other MMOs I've had because of PvP won't be so here, and I like it enough here to take to it. But I can also see that Thunderchilde might have had some of the crap I've been forced to stomach, and they are wise enough not to try that dish again, not going to knock them for their dietary choice .

So the -1 just reinforced what Thunderchilde felt in their mind about PvPers and attitudes associated with them, and in TC's follow up post expressed just that, and for his previous post it was their opinion and nobody is holding a gun to anyones head to stay or play or test etc. For them PvP=time to leave *shrug* to bad it's that cut and dry, hope its not and like me he/she can at least try it one more time and make it different this time in the great MMO.

[Mimir[IS]]

[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1338474299' post='58396']
Wow, someone gave him a -1 for stating his personal opinion. Talk about petty. He has his personal opinion, you don't have to agree with it. -1/+1 aren't really supost to be a BOO!/YAY! thing. You award or take away your support/ add your support via that for the content or skill of the post, if they add something valid to the conversation you give them a +1, if they are offensive or a troll etc.you give them a -1, its considered good form when you give them a -1 to say WHY you gave them a -1.

I've stated my past hesitence about PvP, hoped I presented my trepidation in a cogent form while doing so, never felt PvPers should be denighed it either (within the constraints of the client and not negative impact on PvE) and have posted ideas to do just that, give them their "thing" without crapping on my "thing", if its done right I might even try it out! Who knows, maybe all the negative experiences in other MMOs I've had because of PvP won't be so here, and I like it enough here to take to it. But I can also see that Thunderchilde might have had some of the crap I've been forced to stomach, and they are wise enough not to try that dish again, not going to knock them for their dietary choice .

So the -1 just reinforced what Thunderchilde felt in their mind about PvPers and attitudes associated with them, and in TC's follow up post expressed just that, and for his previous post it was their opinion and nobody is holding a gun to anyones head to stay or play or test etc. For them PvP=time to leave *shrug* to bad it's that cut and dry, hope its not and like me he/she can at least try it one more time and make it different this time in the great MMO.
[/quote]
+1
I'm glad you posted. This was exactly my fear, that those that are opposed to PvP will NOT speak up but just fade away. Again a non PvP proponent was made to feel less than welcome in this discussion. We really need to get a handle on this before others bail on just the whisper of PvP.

This could be worse than talk of the W word.

[Riz]

Well out of fairness, I +1'd him. I myself am not a PvPer and h seen it really ruin a community before, but I try be open anyway.

[Phorlaug[IS]]

[quote name='Thunderchilde' timestamp='1338401360' post='58382']
my two cents
the day its added Ill be gone
nuff said
[/quote]

Heres a quote YOU had made to another player that wasn't happy with someone elses need, concern or opinion.

[quote name='Thunderchilde' timestamp='1319733671' post='47708']
Happy trails Brix we will be here when you cool off take care
[/quote]

How are we suppose to act when you yourself say something like that?

[quote name='Thunderchilde' timestamp='1338462243' post='58391']
fair enough not that my comment seems to need any explanation but since you ask ok
my difficulty with pvp goes toward attitude and is reinforced by your response
my attitude affects only me your response suggests that I am in some way affecting you by taking this attitude
this is not the case I care little for pvp but it brings out the worst in people
[/quote]
Sorry PvP isn't going to change the way people are now that play the EMU, IMO and from what I am seeing The PvP supporters are the ones that are acting calm and careing for the PvE and their needs and Concerns.

IMO, ANY PvP player knows the Danger and the FUN that will be associated with PvP. There is Greifing In the Normal PvE area as it is now. If You would please look back on the ideas and concerns that Everyone everyone has put fourth you would have seen that the PvP that is [u]being suggested Is NOTHING LIKE ANY OTHER PvP that there is.[/u]

There will be no Impact on the PvE people unless you/they choose to involve yourSelf or Themselves in any such Conversation, topic, Combat or Chat.

Your concern that we will ALL turn into assholes is Duly noted by your comment on this topic and your reply to another players concern on another topic.

Thunderchilde, I would wish that you (or anyone else) would give The EnBEMU PvP/PvE and its Players a chance before you pass judgement on US

If A Player decides to do PvP It Will be by their own desire to do so weather it Be By combat, disscussion or chat and have any consequence of said action will be by their own doing.

Edit: One reason why a PvP of some kind should be in EnB is because of the friendly (mostly) Community.

Phor

[Ryle [N7R]]

Let me be crystal clear on something.

I gave the person the -1 and with good reason.

If your sole contribution to this thread is "IMMA QUIT IF YOU MAKE PEEVEEPEE *STOMP FEET LIKE A CHILD*" Then I will -1 you. And I will smile doing it.

You dont like PvP? Thats cool, dont participate in it. I wouldnt want you to anyway, there are other systems more to your liking, have at.

Dont be coming up in my style of gameplay and bashing it like a noob or trying to keep me from it then. If you have a genuine concern (dev resource time, keeping balance to PvE and PvP seperate) thats one thing. But coming in here saying youll quit if some people have something you dont like just because you dont like it? Get bent IMO.

End of. Edited May 31, 2012 by Ryle

[Mattsacre]

Sorry Ryle, but what you have just said is why TC said this:
[quote name='Thunderchilde' timestamp='1338401360' post='58382']
my two cents
the day its added Ill be gone
nuff said
[/quote]
You only reinforce the perception, maybe misconstrued but PERCEPTION of PvPers. Kk TC don't like PvP....and feels so strongly about it, that they feel on its implementation, a exit strategy is called for, and was willing to go on record saying so...an opinion, not a troll, not a blatent flame or whinfest, a opinion. And the reward for an OPINION is? -1 and flame.

When called on to explain why they felt that way, TC did. Don't have to agree, love or disagree, it was their personal opinion.

Kudos you owned the -1, thats what a person should do, but then you went on to negate that with a flame once again reinforcing what the PvE community fears/dislikes about PvPers! I'm not the OP, but from comments throughout the thread I took it that the reason for the thread was to:
A. Kick around PvP ideas, enough to "make it fun for everyone"
B. Through open dialog and ALL player input (PvP and PvE) difuse any prejudices and fears over PvP.

I'm not -1ing you, it is after all your opinion, but to dismiss TC's opinion while promoting yours, you just kick reason right in the teeth.

Engage TC, dialog them, explain how it need not be all bad, maybe it's not TC's cup of tea, but with reasoned dialog perhaps they could be turned around, and while maybe not being turned into a raging PvP advocate, TC could be persuaded not to kneejerk hate PvP and those that like it. Maybe TC isn't a Pvper, maybe you wouldn't even want to engage in it with them, or even play in PvE with them, but for every person that plays this game (PvP/PvE) and enjoys it, I bet they tell at least 2 others what a greta game it is, maybe 1 of those 2 ARE someone you would like to PvP with.

[Ryle [N7R]]

I fired back with what I was given to work with. There are 12 pages of discussion on this. If the only thing someone can do is roll through and be like "no, no reason why, just no, or i quit" there isnt much to go on.

I remember a few months ago when you, starbuck, and I started this whole discussion. There has never been talk that ive seen of turning around and saying, no ill quit if we never have PvP, nor has there been talk of, no ill quit if they add system X or Y.

I took the post as entirely childish. And responded in kind.

After seeing their reasons about how the attitude of a PvP community is bad, I followed up with an example of what a "butt hurt PvE nazi" causes when they bash PvP. The attitude of a PvP community does not always start with e-peen jerks trolling bads. There was nothing childish here til that post. In this case a PvE elitist seems to have brought out my inner PvP troll.

Notice ive never bashed Mimir even though I know he does not want PvP in this game? Thats cause his posts and concerns make sense. He hasnt come in acting like a 2 year old saying "i quit cause you cant have this."

Ive dealt with enough of that unconstructive "no" mentality in the past that I am not really going to engage it here. You got a real concern and a why? Sure lets talk about it, but saying no ill quit just to try to get people to not want it (does this ever work? quit for all i care if its that big of a deal, im still going to embrace the PvP community that wants this and speak for and with them about it) and end discussion?

I guess you dont see what I see. There was no drama here til someone said no because of PvPer attitudes in the very way that CAUSES those attitudes.

Heck Matt youve had some of the strongest arguments against open sector PvP in this thread, from a sensibility side. Havent seen me have a go at that, have you.

Id react the same way if someone was like "NO WE CANT GIVE ITEM X TO TERRANS OR ILL QUIT"