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Eviticus,

Nothing is stopping players from collecting and displaying the information, we won't say a word. This is in effect what wowhead is, a player collection. I'd be more than happy to see one. We just won't provide it FOR you as that DOES cheapen the game if we hand it to you on a platter. If you all find it by consensus, then it does not. That's the main difference here.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='' post='']
Why would we design content for a massively multiplayer game to be aimed at a solo player?

Solo players in my day did it for the "challenge" of doing it alone, not just to avoid human contact.

Nothing is stopping players from collecting and displaying the information, we won't say a word.
[/quote]

I did not request content be designed for solo players, merely open up the same content to a more diverse style of play, including the more independant players.

I don't intend to avoid contact, I just don't think it should be [i]required[/i] in every aspect of the game, or in life. Perhaps you missed the part about a tight circle of friends? And where's the challenge in asking someone else to do it for you? At least if the information is available, I can look it up myself, go get it myself and build it myself. Much more of a challenge there than asking another player where to get it or depending on someone else to have the blueprint for me.

Player's collecting and publishing this information is all well and good, Kyp. But as you have said this is unfinished and evolving even as we discuss it. Drops are not the same now as when I joined this community a few months ago. Therefore, a little help from the devs is not an unreasonable request at this point. If, I could just get a static dump of the loot tables from time to time, I could write and publish a searchable database for those interested.

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I notice you failed to mention anything about bribing another player for the information. Independence doesn't mean exclusivity, nor does asking or speaking to other players make it [b]required[/b] in all aspects of play. You make it seem as if its: 'You're either with us, or you're against us.' which is not the case. There's no challenge in asking someone to do it for you, I haven't indicated anything of asking someone to do it for you, only that you have the option to work hand-in-hand with other players. If you don't want to that's perfectly fine, but we're not going to provide a direct guide. You're welcome to make a database of your own to prevent others from having to look into it though, for that matter so is anyone else. The DB on portal is directly connected, it cannot be wrong, therefore it cannot have live locations otherwise there's no mystery and that's why some people play.

We won't dash their playstyle on the rocks to support yours. Edited by Kyp

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301193973' post='37277']Nothing is stopping players from collecting and displaying the information, we won't say a word. This is in effect what wowhead is, a player collection. I'd be more than happy to see one. We just won't provide it FOR you as that DOES cheapen the game if we hand it to you on a platter. If you all find it by consensus, then it does not. That's the main difference here.
[/quote]

I understand that Wowhead is player made, I said as much. And I am not asking that you guys provide us with a database, I said that too. My point was to address what you said.

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301185676' post='37262']We do not wish to make the game impossibly easy by providing a means of getting all information in one spot, that's why we had Slayerman hide the drops on the db because previously it showed the mob it dropped from, the relative percentage, [b]AND[/b] the sector. This makes it a pinpoint, ho-hum kind of thing, whereas asking other players might net several possibilities.[/quote]

I just wanted to chip in with saying I disagree that the availability of information makes it easier. It was my understanding you were saying that all of the information being available would make the game impossibly easy and ho-hum. I was just saying that there are many games that have been around for years that have been picked apart and put together by the fanbase down to the smallest variables and they are still great fun. And again I am not saying it should be the Staff that provides this information, it should and must be the players that figure this out.

Also I am sorry if this is distracting you from getting real work done. Forums are an evil thing, but necessary, hehe. :D Edited by Eviticus

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301195536' post='37279']
I notice you failed to mention anything about bribing another player for the information.

You make it seem as if its: 'You're either with us, or you're against us.' which is not the case.

We won't dash their playstyle on the rocks to support yours.
[/quote]

I never intended to imply you're with me or against me. In fact, you are doing that, not I. I am asking for more diverse style of play while you are limiting it to one of your choosing. You'll dash my style to support their's. Again, making the info available doesn't require anyone to use it.

It appears to me, you're pushing for a cut throat environment, perhaps inspired by Eve. I do hope not. This is a fun game, Eve is not. This is a friendly game, Eve is not. This is the game I have chosen to play for now, Eve is not.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301196841' post='37281']
I never intended to imply you're with me or against me. In fact, you are doing that, not I. I am asking for more diverse style of play while you are limiting it to one of your choosing. You'll dash my style to support their's. Again, making the info available doesn't require anyone to use it.

It appears to me, you're pushing for a cut throat environment, perhaps inspired by Eve. I do hope not. This is a fun game, Eve is not. This is a friendly game, Eve is not. This is the game I have chosen to play for now, Eve is not.
[/quote]


Cut throat how? As far as I can tell the move is a move towards helping the Community to rely on eachother.

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[quote name='Eviticus' timestamp='1301196947' post='37282']
Cut throat how? As far as I can tell the move is a move towards helping the Community to rely on eachother.
[/quote]


Bribing a player for information about an item.....
Relying on the good will of others, call me a skeptic, but not a good idea.....

Anytime a thing is not freely available, someone will hoard what they have found and seek some way to profit and parlay their possession of it into a power position. This may not be apparent with the game in it's current state, but if locations of items are not available to all, those with that information will not give it away freely.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301198027' post='37284']
Bribing a player for information about an item.....
Relying on the good will of others, call me a skeptic, but not a good idea.....

Anytime a thing is not freely available, someone will hoard what they have found and seek some way to profit and parlay their possession of it into a power position. This may not be apparent with the game in it's current state, but if locations of items are not available to all, those with that information will not give it away freely.
[/quote]


You......you have played the Emu, right? I mean we are talking about the same game, right?

I have never, ever encountered having to bribe a player for information in this game or any other. I have encountered people trading in game currency or favors for items/knowledge/assistance. But never bribery, that's way too strong.

The 'good will' of others in the EnB Emu is more constant than death or taxes. In other games maybe, but if you do not trust the good will of people in this game I really have to wonder how much you have interacted with people. Try to get something built at F7 and they will bludgeon you with helpfulness and good will. Provided you are polite and have the components to build the item.

And as far as "Anytime a thing is not freely available, someone will hoard what they have found and seek some way to profit and parlay their possession of it into a power position" I would have to say in general yes, but not in this community and not in many communities in many MMO's. I am almost positive for ever one story of a miserly a**hole in a MMO I can come up with 5 stories of charity, kindness, and assistance in a MMO. As far as information anyways.

The only times I can think of information that is truly guarded and very hard to get is things like exactly when a boss died(one who is on a timer respawn window), the reason being some people killed it and are trying to get it's drop, and they want to control who knows when it will respawn so they have to face less competition. Also possibly (more specific to EnB) where the most profitable fields to mine are at. Ones most likely to contain highly coveted ores. Neither of these two things were ever part of the EnB Database, and only the mining field info would ever really be something that could even be on a site. Time of Death for boss mobs is just one of those things you either know cause you were there, heard it from someone who was, or you don't. There is nothing stopping you from camping that mob to find out Time of Death on your own though.

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Forgive me, but this is absurd. There is absolutely no precedent for an MMO giving away vital game information like this to players. If you don't want to run around and look for things and really get to know the universe, I'm not sure what to tell you. That's all part of the game; that's what EnB is, and it's not going away. Furthermore, you can get a good idea of what mob should drop a certain item by the item itself. If it's a mordana item, it probably drops from mordana; if it's a solar sail, it probably drops from bogeril or scuttles, etc. Sure, this can be more complicated for components and certain items, but it sure isn't impossible, and you can always ask others for help.

The bottom line is: this just isn't remotely within the realm of possiblity. The content devs are in agreement that providing complete drop info is not a good idea, and honestly, some staff have had to really push to get the web services we currently provide approved. Initially, mob drops were supposed to be completely hidden, i.e. all items. At least even with hidden drops now, you can tell whether or not there is indeed a mob that drops the item somewhere out there.

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[quote name='Eviticus' timestamp='1301199622' post='37285']
You......you have played the Emu, right? I mean we are talking about the same game, right?

I have never, ever encountered having to bribe a player for information in this game or any other. I have encountered people trading in game currency or favors for items/knowledge/assistance. But never bribery, that's way too strong.

The 'good will' of others in the EnB Emu is more constant than death or taxes. In other games maybe, but if you do not trust the good will of people in this game I really have to wonder how much you have interacted with people. Try to get something built at F7 and they will bludgeon you with helpfulness and good will. Provided you are polite and have the components to build the item.

And as far as "Anytime a thing is not freely available, someone will hoard what they have found and seek some way to profit and parlay their possession of it into a power position" I would have to say in general yes, but not in this community and not in many communities in many MMO's. I am almost positive for ever one story of a miserly a**hole in a MMO I can come up with 5 stories of charity, kindness, and assistance in a MMO. As far as information anyways.

The only times I can think of information that is truly guarded and very hard to get is things like exactly when a boss died(one who is on a timer respawn window), the reason being some people killed it and are trying to get it's drop, and they want to control who knows when it will respawn so they have to face less competition. Also possibly (more specific to EnB) where the most profitable fields to mine are at. Ones most likely to contain highly coveted ores. Neither of these two things were ever part of the EnB Database, and only the mining field info would ever really be something that could even be on a site. Time of Death for boss mobs is just one of those things you either know cause you were there, heard it from someone who was, or you don't. There is nothing stopping you from camping that mob to find out Time of Death on your own though.
[/quote]


It wasn't me who suggested you might bribe a player for information, but Kyp did. Please do more than scan the topic before going on like this. Now I'll have to do damage control.

I do agree with you, this is a very friendly and cooperative community. I want to keep it that way. I don't believe hiding the loot tables will accomplish that.

I can only say with the attitude toward making that information available, I hope your opinion of this community holds true. But you have already cited examples of people within the EnB community doing exactly as I described.

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[quote name='C Del' timestamp='1301199895' post='37287']
Forgive me, but this is absurd. There is absolutely no precedent for an MMO giving away vital game information like this to players. If you don't want to run around and look for things and really get to know the universe, I'm not sure what to tell you. That's all part of the game; that's what EnB is, and it's not going away. Furthermore, you can get a good idea of what mob should drop a certain item by the item itself. If it's a mordana item, it probably drops from mordana; if it's a solar sail, it probably drops from bogeril or scuttles, etc. Sure, this can be more complicated for components and certain items, but it sure isn't impossible, and you can always ask others for help.

The bottom line is: this just isn't remotely within the realm of possiblity. The content devs are in agreement that providing complete drop info is not a good idea, and honestly, some staff have had to really push to get the web services we currently provide approved. Initially, mob drops were supposed to be completely hidden, i.e. all items. At least even with hidden drops now, you can tell whether or not there is indeed a mob that drops the item somewhere out there.
[/quote]


There have already been several examples provided and linked where mmo's do in fact give access to their data, at least in part, whether in the form of a static dump or through live connection. If you would also read more, you'd see I said I would write and publish a searchable database myself for those interested, if I had access to the information. So your arguement of the devs having a hard time providing the web service required is invalid.

I do, at least initially, search within the game for items and I know my way around the EnB universe pretty well. Rarely do I even refer to the galaxy map.

You are correct in that many of the items may be located thru a process of deduction. But there are those that may not be found that way and in the case of rare and very rare items dropped only from a specific mob, how can you even be sure you're hunting the right thing, particularly so with components.

For instance, I use Big Berthas on my TS. The ammo uses a player made comp dropped only from the level 33 freighter near one of the asteroid belt gates in Saturn. It took me days of killing that same mob to even get a single drop of the item I needed. Had I not known for sure that particular mob would eventually drop the item, I may never have acquired it.

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I hadn't really intended to get into a discussion like this, my original intent was voicing my opinion on something Kyp said. I am sorry I incorrectly attributed that comment to you. You are right in that I have not read this thread completely before commenting and it does reflect poorly on me. I am sorry.

However I do stand beside the rest of what I said. Many other MMO's you will find alot of information available (done by the players) and it does not (in my opinion) detract from the game. One can seek information on their own if discovery is something they like, or if they are after other things by playing the game they can use the player made databases to assist their specific goals. But information that in many MMO's that is not readily available are things like the locations of the most sought after drops(which could include Time of Death for mobs that respawn on long timers and/or have low drop rates). Neither of these things in my experience detracts from the over all fun or challenge of the game.

Out of all the MMO's I have played I have yet to come across one that did not have many, many helpful people. But I will swear by my blood as a gamer that the EnB Emu community is -the most helpful- I have ever seen. I do believe this is partly due to the fact the population is so low that it is easy for alot of the more common players to know each other and help each other out partly due to necessity. But I do not think that will change if the Emu's population grows. The core base of the players will mostly be the same and I believe they will set the tone for the player base to come.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301201202' post='37289'] So your arguement of the devs having a hard time providing the web service required is invalid.
[/quote]

I believe the 'hard time' was a hard time convincing others that it should be done. Not hard as in how hard it is to make the database.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301201202' post='37289']
There have already been several examples provided and linked where mmo's do in fact give access to their data, at least in part, whether in the form of a static dump or through live connection. If you would also read more, you'd see I said I would write and publish a searchable database myself for those interested, if I had access to the information. So your arguement of the devs having a hard time providing the web service required is invalid.

I do, at least initially, search within the game for items and I know my way around the EnB universe pretty well. Rarely do I even refer to the galaxy map.

You are correct in that many of the items may be located thru a process of deduction. But there are those that may not be found that way and in the case of rare and very rare items dropped only from a specific mob, how can you even be sure you're hunting the right thing, particularly so with components.

For instance, I use Big Berthas on my TS. The ammo uses a player made comp dropped only from the level 33 freighter near one of the asteroid belt gates in Saturn. It took me days of killing that same mob to even get a single drop of the item I needed. Had I not known for sure that particular mob would eventually drop the item, I may never have acquired it.
[/quote]
You don't need to talk down to me and tell me read more carefully to make your point. That said, I wasn't referring to the difficulty of publicisizing the information. (see my reply to Eviticus' post below) I'm sorry you have trouble finding some items - maybe those items don't drop often enough - but giving out drop information just defeats the purpose of the game. With that much data, gameplay becomes robotic, i.e. "Go to <X,Y,Z>, kill <mob>, get item, analyze item, rinse, repeat." Mystery is good for brain cells. :D

[quote name='Eviticus' timestamp='1301201484' post='37291']
I believe the 'hard time' was a hard time convincing others that it should be done. Not hard as in how hard it is to make the database.
[/quote]
You are correct, sir. The data is actually all there already, all we have to do is set a flag to 0 to make a drop appear.

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[quote name='C Del' timestamp='1301205481' post='37293']
You don't need to talk down to me and tell me read more carefully to make your point. That said, I wasn't referring to the difficulty of publicisizing the information. (see my reply to Eviticus' post below) I'm sorry you have trouble finding some items - maybe those items don't drop often enough - but giving out drop information just defeats the purpose of the game. With that much data, gameplay becomes robotic, i.e. "Go to <X,Y,Z>, kill <mob>, get item, analyze item, rinse, repeat." Mystery is good for brain cells. :D


You are correct, sir. The data is actually all there already, all we have to do is set a flag to 0 to make a drop appear.
[/quote]

I apologise if you felt I was talking down to you, it certainly wasn't my intent. Please do tho, if you have not already, read the entire topic. You will find the reason for my prompt as well as other arguments in favor of this suggestion and why I think it is the proper course.

You are correct in that I misinterpreted your post as to the availability of the of the web service. I supposed you were having difficulty acquiring the bandwidth required or something along those lines. I do however understand how a database works and the functionality of the hide bit. With that said, I know the information is already there, just not visible to the players.

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Hmm its obvious you really dont get it, and never will.

You seem think to that they are blowing steam and are going to eventually give in to your demand that they open up the database.

[b]Both Kyp and Cdel have said it is not going to happen[/b] so why keep going?

[b]Its not going to happen.[/b]

You dont want to work for the information, You dont want to ask someone in game for the information, You dont want to look through the forums for the information.....

You know what thats called?
[b]Lazy.[/b]

If you dont want to play the game as it is meant to be played then dont play. Stop whinning about not getting handed all the drops in the database so you can be some lone ranger than dont have to rely on anyone else, This is a MMO, and you dont seem to get the concept of a MMO.

Again no MMO gives out their database, Players find all the information and make their own.
Takes hard work and dedication, which I think you Lack.

Im not trying to be mean, but OMG the main Developers have told you more than once it [b]WONT[/b] happen.

You want the information in your own database, then do the hard work and research it like everyone else.

Im done.
  • Downvote 1

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Loot tables or Loot info

playing a game makes fun IF a player gets the chance to get the items he wants or needs.

if the droprate is 5-20% it's still a hard way to get the item by killing the mob which drop it.
first he need the info about the item
second about what mob drops it
third where to find the mob.

to get all that information doesn't say that's it. he still has to kill a dozen, a hundred or more of this mobs to get it.

EA wasn't really annoyed to see that lots of databases gave the information during live.

I wonder what's now the prob.

And I wonder that now some are fearing the info free to all like the devil:

I think there is a bunch of players which has the info and all the items which were or are ingame
but no chance to get this for a common str4 player

sometimes no way to get the info
sometimes no way to get the items bc they were in game but not now and as i heard from a dev and a gm won't come ingame again

that's the way to kill the fun for players and at last to kill the game at all


and btw. enb Arsenal gives maybe 5% drop-info
and the only side which showed more info is now closed down

and after getting some drop info the drop disappears......

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[quote name='Eviticus']
I just wanted to chip in with saying I disagree that the availability of information makes it easier. It was my understanding you were saying that all of the information being available would make the game impossibly easy and ho-hum. I was just saying that there are many games that have been around for years that have been picked apart and put together by the fanbase down to the smallest variables and they are still great fun. And again I am not saying it should be the Staff that provides this information, it should and must be the players that figure this out.
[/quote]

No worries, to clarify what I personally meant, there's a fine distinction between you guys collecting it and displaying it (which I'm for) and us handing it to you on a silver platter (which I'm against), that's all. I would encourage people who wanted to make a database of their own or a player-driven one like WowHead.

[quote name='Bidoc']
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I never intended to imply you're with me or against me. In fact, you are doing that, not I. I am asking for more diverse style of play while you are limiting it to one of your choosing. You'll dash my style to support their's. Again, making the info available doesn't require anyone to use it.

It appears to me, you're pushing for a cut throat environment, perhaps inspired by Eve. I do hope not. This is a fun game, Eve is not. This is a friendly game, Eve is not. This is the game I have chosen to play for now, Eve is not. [/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]
[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]It wasn't me who suggested you might bribe a player for information, but Kyp did. Please do more than scan the topic before going on like this. Now I'll have to do damage control.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]
[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I don't believe hiding the loot tables will accomplish that.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]
[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]There have already been several examples provided and linked where mmo's do in fact give access to their data, at least in part, whether in the form of a static dump or through live connection. If you would also read more, you'd see I said I would write and publish a searchable database myself for those interested, if I had access to the information. So your arguement of the devs having a hard time providing the web service required is invalid.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"][/quote][/font][/color]
[font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"][size="2"] [/size][/font]I got that impression from your posts, my apologies. I am doing nothing to be with or against, only stating the facts. This won't change, we had a massive internal fight over it where person(s) who wanted it to happen stood against the rest of the team who did not. Trust me when I say there's a better chance of you getting struck by lightning 3 times in the same spot while winning both major US lotteries jackpots twice, all whilst the temperature in hell makes Alaska look like a tropical paradise. :D

Yes, i will dash your play style to support theirs, because your play style (refusing to cooperate or work with others outside of known circle of friends) is a much smaller group of people. We are limiting to what the majority want, that is all. I am not trying to make this game like any other game, but like its own game.

Note that I suggested that along with several other possibilities. Using it as if it were the only suggestion takes it out of context. You may not believe hiding the loot tables will or won't accomplish that, but the simple truth is it doesn't matter. No MMO does it, we're not going to do it. Like I said earlier, at best the system that contains it, and even that would be a hard sell amongst the team.

No game provided a live db connection out of any of those links, we do, in that alone we set a precedent. EVE was the closest with the restricted API they provide to players. Yes, there be static dumps but if that's what you want try: [url="http://www.net-7.org/database"]http://www.net-7.org/database[/url] there's some aged static dumps there. I can't say anything about accuracy though since the game has changed so much since then.

Er, if you're willing to do a database yourself, why spend time arguing for us to make it available and not just go do it? Oh wait, you might have to ask others unless you want to personally obtain every piece of loot in the game, right. ;)

We can continue for as long as you like, but it will be faster to make the database from known knowledge on your own than to convince us to provide it directly.

[quote name='Gretl']
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]EA wasn't really annoyed to see that lots of databases gave the information during live.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I wonder what's now the prob.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Nice attempt to twist, but neither are we Gretl, you're all welcome to make databases, you'll note however that EA did [b]not[/b] provide a direct link to their databases and if you contacted customer support about loot they would return the reply:

"Maybe your fellow players could help you with this." or something remarkably similar.

In regards to the rest of that post, rubbish. There's always at least two ways to get the info: 1) kill mobs until what you want drops 2) Ask other players. Giving you everything makes the game boring, if you want everything wait until we finish the server move and I'll bring up the PTR and you can go in and have access to dev commands and give yourselves whatever you want, see how quickly it becomes boring to do so. More players prefer the mystery and hunt of finding these items, also in regards to the Arsenal, that's because it's based on a db dump and not a live connection, it has never been updated, yet our mobs have because we have someone going through them correcting loot even today and they are slowly coming online with new loot changes in every patch. The portal site is one of our sites, it provides a db with a live connection, it cannot have exact info or as CDel said the game becomes robotic.

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@Kyp/CDel/Bidoc

A compromise then? Since the Net7 db already shows information you're okay with, and hides the "fun" aspect of the information, would you be willing to do a static extract/dump of that view for folks that are interested in building their own player contributed wiki/database? This static dump need not be updated ever, it's simply a set of seed data. If no, that's fine, just thought I'd toss that idea out there.

-----

@Everyone

For everyone asking for a "better" database, the game (and all others in this genre) already provide a very workable, live and organic database that has search capabilities that far exceeds anything you could find on the web. It's the global chat channel, or in our case, market channel. Ask it a natural language question and oftentimes you'll receive an answer within seconds. No need to learn SQL or fancy advanced search forms. How easy is that?

Joking aside, the Net7 database provides the right amount of information for a lot of needs. For what's missing, the player channels really do do a great job of filling in the rest, give it a try.

-----

Re: hiding information for the benefit of the game and enhancing exploration

There may be drops that are hard to find simply because they're randomly linked to illogical mobs. I know this part of the game is still a work in progress. As the game continues to develop, I'd like to suggest some things for the content team:

- Link items to more logical mobs so folks can have a fighting chance when it comes to organically discovering the mob that drops a certain item.
- Or add some random drops in the game that are vendor fodder, but have descriptive text that enhance the "explore" aspect of the game. Like the old drops that hinted at hidden Chavez bases. For those that played EVE, there used to be drops that hinted at pirate plexes. Stuff like that.
- Add random hint dialog to NPCs. Perhaps the folks at Trader's Fort could tell you about a rumor they heard from their mother's sister's second son's wife's hairdresser about a hidden base in Niff Cloud that was researching some interesting devices.


Just some thoughts.

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[quote name='Fuulish' timestamp='1301234847' post='37300']
@Kyp/CDel/Bidoc

A compromise then? Since the Net7 db already shows information you're okay with, and hides the "fun" aspect of the information, would you be willing to do a static extract/dump of that view for folks that are interested in building their own player contributed wiki/database? This static dump need not be updated ever, it's simply a set of seed data. If no, that's fine, just thought I'd toss that idea out there.

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@Everyone

For everyone asking for a "better" database, the game (and all others in this genre) already provide a very workable, live and organic database that has search capabilities that far exceeds anything you could find on the web. It's the global chat channel, or in our case, market channel. Ask it a natural language question and oftentimes you'll receive an answer within seconds. No need to learn SQL or fancy advanced search forms. How easy is that?

Joking aside, the Net7 database provides the right amount of information for a lot of needs. For what's missing, the player channels really do do a great job of filling in the rest, give it a try.

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Re: hiding information for the benefit of the game and enhancing exploration

There may be drops that are hard to find simply because they're randomly linked to illogical mobs. I know this part of the game is still a work in progress. As the game continues to develop, I'd like to suggest some things for the content team:

- Link items to more logical mobs so folks can have a fighting chance when it comes to organically discovering the mob that drops a certain item.
- Or add some random drops in the game that are vendor fodder, but have descriptive text that enhance the "explore" aspect of the game. Like the old drops that hinted at hidden Chavez bases. For those that played EVE, there used to be drops that hinted at pirate plexes. Stuff like that.
- Add random hint dialog to NPCs. Perhaps the folks at Trader's Fort could tell you about a rumor they heard from their mother's sister's second son's wife's hairdresser about a hidden base in Niff Cloud that was researching some interesting devices.


Just some thoughts.
[/quote]


Very nice Fuulish.
Thanks for the input. I like the suggestion to offer clues in game it would make hunting items even more interesting than looking for them in a database.

I have also asked for a snapshot of the db as it exists now as a starting point, because the loot tables are changing. Drops and loot locations have changed since I began a few months ago. Any static database would be out of date before it was published which makes the suggestion of compiling my own db by gathering the info, a suggestion to excercise in futility.

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eq2players.com is SOE run and maintained, with a station access subscription which is $29.99 and allows you to play any of their games, does have a loot database you can browse. They provide access for lootdb.com and eq2.zam.com to pull directly from their database and correlate all the information for items to zone, mob and level.

I'm not saying I want ENB Emu staff to make the database completely available to the player base. IMO, it's fine the way it is; just allowing us access to know what is available currently. I would however, like to see it updated more regularly. Just going off personal knowledge I know the lvl 2 and 3 Nova Flash is no longer dropped by any mob, but the database still says it has hidden drops. I'm sure there are other items with similar circumstances.

I also think the main difference between ENB and any other MMO is that ENB is completely contested. No other MMO I know runs strictly contested, raids are instanced, several zones are instanced and having a wide open loot database won't directly affect play. With ENB being contested, I think the devs may also be a little concerned about the same people camping the same mobs/hulks/roids and not letting the other 90% of the server population get in.

Personally, I would much rather have a site maintained by the player base for mob locations, loot drops, and the sort. However, like Kyp, CDel and others have stated, there's nothing wrong with a fansite running with a loot database. It won't always be 100% accurate and will be pulled from player experience, not straight from the loot tables. If given enough information we can also start to implement drop rates and that kind of thing.

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[quote name='gretl' timestamp='1301215297' post='37296']EA wasn't really annoyed to see that lots of databases
[/quote]
Not sure if this is indicative of being annoyed at databases but EA did shuffle loot tables several times.

The great thing about shuffling loot tables is even if you did it with only 40 mobs it would mean those die-hard database ppl would force themselves to check every mob ingame.

It would offer a counterweight to databases you know, keep them on their toes :D

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i don't know for which reason would someone think bidoc likes to keep to him self ... he is friendly ... he helps new players in guild .... he is very active in all raids we organize ... if that is antisocial than i don't know what antisocial is ... just my 5 cents

cheers

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301181929' post='37248']

Yes, I still want the information available. I'm not asking the devs to provide it, just not to hide it.
[/quote]

Ah, well there's the easy part. They aren't hiding it, they just aren't openly publishing it. Once you've found something it isn't hidden. You are then free to share that information with others - nobody on the Dev/GM team will stop you. You are free to explore all areas of the game and find it for yourself. You are free to ask others playing the game where whatever you are looking for can be found. You are free to record all the information you gather and host it in a player-accessible format of your choice. This is how it was done in Live - some of this info was shared via Community Forums and some of it was even hosted on player-developed databases hosted on websites. All of it was based upon player experiences, in-game, in finding what dropped what and where.

If what you want is an encyclopedia and atlas listing every drop, provided by the Net-7 staff, they've already said you aren't going to get it. I happen to be in agreement with that stance. While I don't have any hard data to point to, my gut feeling is that more *active* players agree with that stance than disagree.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301185234' post='37261']
Still, I for one could be completely happy to never buy or ask another player for anything.
[/quote]

Perhaps, then, an MMORPG really isn't the right game? I mean, seriously, with that type of stance what is the point of playing a game with other people?

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