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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301179740' post='37240']By the very nature of that argument, you fail. :)

The request was for US to provide this information. We're not going to do it. I didn't argue with the fact that the creator hosted, in fact I agreed with you above that it was "official" but pointed out that by their own about page, which you so kindly linked they said they don't touch it, its entirely the player base. Nice try though.[/size][/font]
[/quote]
I like your stubbornness, on an unrelated note is that why the TS is going to have build engines together with the TT and TW?

Back to here, you did ask this earlier:

[quote]Really? Name 3 examples, with links to data offered by the creator, this is certainly a very new behavior of any mass market mmo I know. [/quote]

The information is offered by Arenanet here, or not?

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301181321' post='37245']
So, in effect, you're saying, I'm the boss, I'm gonna do it my way and if you don't like it, there's the door.

Kind of reminds me of someone... initials EA
[/quote]

Your not getting the whole point that he was saying. Lets view it this way, only the [b]minority[/b] wants the database open.

There really is not a reason to have it open, when it was open it was for [b]testing purposes only[/b].

Think of it as a Live MMO, they wont provide all the information that the game holds because if you knew everything the game holds it wouldnt be fun anymore.

Were would the mystery be?

You still have not answered my previous questions:
[b]1)Why would you want the entire drop database handed to you?

2)How Long would you seriously play if it was just given to you?

3)Do you not think it would make the game boring within a few weeks or months down the road to know everything?[/b]
I challenge you to answer them, and honestly tell me it is worth it to have the information handed to you.

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301181752' post='37247']
Your not getting the whole point that he was saying. Lets view it this way, only the [b]minority[/b] wants the database open.
[/quote]
You're making an unfounded assumption there. I see both support and dissent here.
Furthermore, no one is forcing those who don't want the information to use it.
Whereas, if it is unavailable, you are forcing us to contend without it.

in answer to you questions;

1) to help me locate needed items and components for building
2) as long as I choose to or until it is no longer available, which ever comes 1st
3) no


Yes, I still want the information available. I'm not asking the devs to provide it, just not to hide it.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301181321' post='37245']
So, in effect, you're saying, I'm the boss, I'm gonna do it my way and if you don't like it, there's the door.

Kind of reminds me of someone... initials EA
[/quote]

not really, just reinforcing a decision that has already been made by the team. You're welcome to make some arguments against it, but you're going to have to do some more research, because so far it hasn't been that close to the mark.

[quote name='Tyran']
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]I like your stubbornness, on an unrelated note is that why the TS is going to have build engines together with the TT and TW?

Back to here, you did ask this earlier:[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Hey, I'm not the one who's a glutton for punishment here. You're making it too easy. Yes, the TS will have build engine because engines are what Terrans are good at. Until we have a point where we make changes to the new classes it will remain as is. That's not to say I don't listen to suggestions, I just don't implement them unless they are sound. Giving them build reactors (as suggested by some) is fail, because Terrans don't know the first thing about reactors or energy management, that was their weakness.

In regards to the latter:

Ok, perhaps if you want to twist my original words out of context this is a fit, but otherwise not really since it's a player maintained wiki hosted by the company on their server.

[quote name='Bidoc']
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,][color=#000000][size=2][b][url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=37247"][img]https://forum.enb-emulator.com/public/style_images/terran-new/snapback.png[/img][/url]Maniac, on 26 March 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:[/b][/size][/color]

[size=2]Your not getting the whole point that he was saying. Lets view it this way, only the [b]minority[/b] wants the database open.
[/size]

You're making an unfounded assumption there. I see both support and dissent here. [/font][/color]
[/quote]

He might be, but I'm not, the last time this [i][b]suggestion[/b][/i] came up, albeit then with a firebrand poster who attempted to call us out we received plenty of private communications that said basically that they agreed with us but didn't want to become embroiled in it publicly. In any case, no game does it from the company making it to the players, we're certainly not going to set that precedent. I still haven't seen a valid example of even one company that directly provided a live connection of data, the closest was that dump snapshot for eve on the dev wiki you had in your first response, but I know for a fact EVE doesn't offer live DB access, you can through an API access details about only your account, and stats of your guild, in fact the API site tells you that.. You can't get info about other players, which you could with a fully unrestricted connection to that db. I don't get the desire for a full database, it completely devalues at least 1/3 of the gameplay.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301181929' post='37248']
You're making an unfounded assumption there. I see both support and dissent here.
[/quote]

Search through the forums, there are like 15 other threads like this, all stating the same thing, again you still havent answered my questions.

BTW seriously this is their project, why ask for something that they have said they will not release?

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301181929' post='37248']

in answer to you questions;

1) to help me locate needed items and components for building
2) as long as I choose to or until it is no longer available, which ever comes 1st
3) no
[/quote]

1-Can be done via [b]market or general[/b] for info on drops
2-[b]already no longer available[/b], you just answered you original question in the first place.

Any other reasons??

BTW dont take any of this as me being an ass, Im only handing down information I personally have already gleaned from the forums, and I think I have been rather clear. Edited by Maniac

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301180878' post='37243']
You did it again my friend.
Burned yourself.

First change i did is self evident. They did not provide nor hand out the information as in what MOB drops what.

Next is a [b]Player[/b] gained the information, through hard work, it [b]was not[/b] handed to him/her from the creators.

Now here is the kicker, you reinforced what Kyp and I said, It was [b]not given[/b] to the player, the [b]player[/b] found the information whether by making a program to access the database or finding the MOB that dropped it.

Try again.
[/quote]Not really productive when someone keeps repeating themselves in a slightly different way and each time it makes a little less sense than the last...

What you are doing is arguing semantics, with yourself.

All I did was point out (at post nr.12) that you PWNT yourself (at post nr.10).

When I said I would put on the kettle, I did not think it would be this easy to see you blow steam :)

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301182535' post='37252']
Not really productive when someone keeps repeating themselves in a slightly different way and each time it makes a little less sense than the last...

What you are doing is arguing semantics, with yourself.

All I did was point out (at post nr.12) that you PWNT yourself (at post nr.10).

When I said I would put on the kettle, I did not think it would be this easy to see you blow steam :)
[/quote]

I already figured you are trying to be a Troll, however you must not realize I like to feed Trolls the same information over and over again.
Gotta remember they have thick skulls, got to pound the information in over and over again.
You must like getting burned with a hot poker of truth.
Oh well Ill keep doing it if i must.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301182035' post='37249']Hey, I'm not the one who's a glutton for punishment here. You're making it too easy. Yes, the TS will have build engine because engines are what Terrans are good at. Until we have a point where we make changes to the new classes it will remain as is. That's not to say I don't listen to suggestions, I just don't implement them unless they are sound. Giving them build reactors (as suggested by some) is fail, because Terrans don't know the first thing about reactors or energy management, that was their weakness. [/quote]This may be kind of moot but:

Give it build components like the very ancient single player Terran Scout had in its skills list.

By having build devices, build comps and prospect it would be in a unique niche. In the same way the PS is versatile in that prospect and killing have good synchronization, the TS could prospect ores and use them to build components to sell, or use the components to build devices. A small niche, nothing major, but oh so much better than engines which is so overlapped with TW and TT.

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301182035' post='37249']
In regards to the latter:

Ok, perhaps if you want to twist my original words out of context this is a fit, but otherwise not really since it's a player maintained wiki hosted by the company on their server.[/quote]My only point in this thread; at least one major mmo's creator has the mindset that all game info should be available...

Not saying it's good, like I've said before it's great that the emulator will not have this.

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301182961' post='37253']
I already figured you are trying to be a Troll, however you must not realize I like to feed Trolls the same information over and over again.
Gotta remember they have thick skulls, got to pound the information in over and over again.
You must like getting burned with a hot poker of truth.
Oh well Ill keep doing it if i must.
[/quote]
Not trolling, just pointing out self pwnage. Don't worry even the sharpest among us are guilty of that at times :)

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I believe our documentation (being some of the original stuff we got from the real original devs so long ago) stated that only a Tradesman class could have build components, not that this has to be law, but I will go verify that. Like I said, not that I'm not open to suggestions. They just have to be sound. :)

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Kyp, I do hope you don't think I'm asking for unrestricted access to the live db, or that I would even suggest a static dump should include player information.

Still, I don't think mob locations with drops is too much to ask for.

Let me try to explain. We all know that player made items are far superior to vendored and that all the good stuff is drop only. It is simply a very daunting task for most players to search thru the entire galaxy for that gun/shield/reactor/device and/or the component to build it. In fact, given the number of possibilities, by the time one locates the appropriate mob and actually gets it to drop the wanted item, one is well beyond the point of needing it, probably by several levels. So, by your action of making the item unattainable, you have rendered it useless and are making less use of your limited content. Now, if one knows at least generally, perhaps which system to search, and the possibility of getting it in time to actually use it, one has a self assigned quest to attain said item, in effect expanding the use of your limited content.

Of course, the lower level items would be easier to find and acquire than the higher levels.

I hope this explains my request.

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301183918' post='37255']
Not trolling, just pointing out self pwnage. Don't worry even the sharpest among us are guilty of that at times :)
[/quote]
Lol in what part of this thread have I "Self Pwnage" myself?
All I did was provide the information that has been handed down from thread after thread in the forums and you have been giving inaccurate information through the whole thread and attempting to be a poor representation of a Troll.

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301184033' post='37257']
Kyp, I do hope you don't think I'm asking for unrestricted access to the live db, or that I would even suggest a static dump should include player information.

Still, I don't think mob locations with drops is too much to ask for.

Let me try to explain. We all know that player made items are far superior to vendored and that all the good stuff is drop only. It is simply a very daunting task for most players to search thru the entire galaxy for that gun/shield/reactor/device and/or the component to build it. In fact, given the number of possibilities, by the time one locates the appropriate mob and actually gets it to drop the wanted item, one is well beyond the point of needing it, probably by several levels. So, by your action of making the item unattainable, you have rendered it useless and are making less use of your limited content. Now, if one knows at least generally, perhaps which system to search, and the possibility of getting it in time to actually use it, one has a self assigned quest to attain said item, in effect expanding the use of your limited content.

Of course, the lower level items would be easier to find and acquire than the higher levels.

I hope this explains my request.
[/quote]

Problem with your request is this, How hard is it to ask someone else were something might be?
Or perhaps ask if someone else has said item that they are not using?
True asking for an item that someone dont need anymore wont work with non-trade items but thats were the channels and asking for information comes into play.
The whole point of a MMO IMO and im sure others is communication. What good is a community if everyone knows where something is and can just go get it?
There are several things out there that can help you, I posted a old javascript map that is handy in finding what ya need or want, True its outdated but most things in it are accurate or can point you in the right direction.

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301184775' post='37260']
Problem with your request is this, How hard is it to ask someone else were something might be?
Or perhaps ask if someone else has said item that they are not using?
True asking for an item that someone dont need anymore wont work with non-trade items but thats were the channels and asking for information comes into play.
The whole point of a MMO IMO and im sure others is communication. What good is a community if everyone knows where something is and can just go get it?
There are several things out there that can help you, I posted a old javascript map that is handy in finding what ya need or want, True its outdated but most things in it are accurate or can point you in the right direction.
[/quote]


As I have said earlier, no one is forcing those who don't want the information to use it. And what about the more independant of us who enjoy doing things for ourselves? You're going to force us to socialize more than we desire and make us dependant on the whims of others? Don't get me wrong. I have a tight circle of friends both in game and out, who have been and are a great help at times. Still, I for one could be completely happy to never buy or ask another player for anything. It would give me great pleasure to say, [i]I[/i] have done this.

In any event, I have made a very good case and offered ways of expanding use of your content. If you choose to ignore it, so be it.

BTW, on eve, you can, thru the API, access item info and build info and ship info from the live database as well as non personal and non security related information about players too..

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301184033' post='37257']
Kyp, I do hope you don't think I'm asking for unrestricted access to the live db, or that I would even suggest a static dump should include player information.

Still, I don't think mob locations with drops is too much to ask for.

Let me try to explain. We all know that player made items are far superior to vendored and that all the good stuff is drop only. It is simply a very daunting task for most players to search thru the entire galaxy for that gun/shield/reactor/device and/or the component to build it. In fact, given the number of possibilities, by the time one locates the appropriate mob and actually gets it to drop the wanted item, one is well beyond the point of needing it, probably by several levels. So, by your action of making the item unattainable, you have rendered it useless and are making less use of your limited content. Now, if one knows at least generally, perhaps which system to search, and the possibility of getting it in time to actually use it, one has a self assigned quest to attain said item, in effect expanding the use of your limited content.

Of course, the lower level items would be easier to find and acquire than the higher levels.

I hope this explains my request.
[/quote]

Perhaps not, but live data is too much. You don't need it to play.


You don't, we do. The dev staff does not want to share this information from our database and there's no precedent for doing so. The closest example to this was EVE's API which says and I quote:

[quote name='Evelopedia']
[font="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][size="2"]
[b]The API[/b]
[font="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The API is a way for people to get data from New Eden, and use it for application development. It allows you to check your skill queue, market orders, evemails, and other interesting data from your mobile phone and other platforms, not just the EVE Client/EVE Gate.[/font]

[font="Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]This is done by querying a CCP-hosted website, which talks (almost) directly to the database. This means that it offers a wide set of semi-live data.[/font]

[/size][/font]
[/quote]


We understand that player-made items are superior, but at the same time this argument/explanation doesn't make sense in the overall scheme unless you refuse to work with other players. You can always ask others for help, you can work together with a guild, you can even bribe a fellow player for the information if you can't work WITH someone, or once someone has done so you can consult a website they've created to help. We have [b]taken no action[/b] to make any item unattainable except where it didn't appear until a certain stage of the storyline. We have also taken no action to [b]make it easily attainable[/b]. These two things as one comprise our position currently which is to say that we've done neither what you allege nor ruined the game for those that prefer exploration to find things. Now, if one could relinquish the dependence on websites over talking to fellow players you could find this stuff, and probably pretty easily.

We do not wish to make the game impossibly easy by providing a means of getting all information in one spot, that's why we had Slayerman hide the drops on the db because previously it showed the mob it dropped from, the relative percentage, [b]AND[/b] the sector. This makes it a pinpoint, ho-hum kind of thing, whereas asking other players might net several possibilities.

Understand that even though you may or may not be suggesting such access, we're still not going to provide down to the mob and sector where something drops at a glance. At best, if you could sway us we might show the system, which could contain many sectors (e.g. Aragoth system, which contains, Freya, odin rex, jotunheim, aragoth, etc.). If you want instant gratification, ask fellow players. Don't ask for a handout, we're all out of them.
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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301185234' post='37261']
As I have said earlier, no one is forcing those who don't want the information to use it.
And what about the more independant of us who enjoy doing things for ourselves? You're going to force us to socialize more than we desire and make us dependant on the whims of others?
[/quote]

Nope not at all, however if you monitor the market and general channels there is always someone asking were something drops.
You dont have to say a word to anyone.
Anyway if you dont socialize how do you expect to go in the high level areas like the fish bowl?

Your point however about people dont have to use the information if they dont want it is true, I will admit that, But Kyp said it wont be released.

Like i said before there are alot of resources out there for information, not 100% accurate but hey whats wrong with that?

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301184457' post='37258']
Lol in what part of this thread have I "Self Pwnage" myself?[/quote]

You may want to read people's posts properly before replying - it was pointed out to you.

O wait, that is not possible when you are like
[img]http://jeffreydonenfeld.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/epic-rage-guy.jpg[/img]

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I see now your last post about solo play bidoc, and I must say, I am generally a solo player myself when playing most games, but MMOs are designed for community and the [b]majority[/b] of content is geared that way, its also true in most other mmos. Why would we design content for a massively multiplayer game to be aimed at a solo player?

Solo players in my day did it for the "challenge" of doing it alone, not just to avoid human contact.

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301185990' post='37264']
You may want to read people's posts properly before replying - it was pointed out to you.

O wait, that is not possible when you are like

[/quote]
How cute Troll, You draw that yourself?
Anyway im done feeding you with that last sentence, Kyp has made it clear the Developers stance, and so have I.
BTW You just proved to me and everyone else you are a Troll. :)
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This is probably long overdue, but please [b]try[/b] to keep this at least borderline civil. I'm enjoying myself reading and responding, but I must admit its distracting me from development work I could be doing right now.

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Like the hunter and the hunted...

There is the troll and the trolled.

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well.. to quote

[quote name='A very wise, albeit fictional, man']
Who's more the fool? The fool, or the fool that follows him?
[/quote]

Seein' as the troll generally follows and provokes an emotional response, I suspect there'd be two different answers to that question. :)

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Get the components and ask Vaden to build it at no cost for the build is it that hard? Let me tell you level 8 and 9 builds are extremely expensive in the millions per click and he can build almost everythig. The only reason you need a lot of prints is to increase the quality of your 8 and 9 builds.

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I have tried to avoid posting here because it feels like this thread is about three inches away from becoming uncivil and locked. However I have to point out there -are- MMO's that have websites devoted to explaining every little detail of things in a game such as exactly what mobs are where, what level they are, what they drop. I never really played WoW but I do remember the name of one site, [url="http://www.wowhead.com/"]Wowhead[/url]. But my main MMO I played for 6 years, Final Fantasy 11, had [url="http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/"]FFXIclopedia[/url] as what I considered to be the best source of info. These sites in no way make the game "ho-hum" or "impossibly easy". Just because you know where something drops doesn't immediately invalidate the entire rest if the game.

And yes, I know those sites are player run, not ran by the MMO themselves nor is it linked to the game's database. But they do display where things drop.

But to clarify things here before there are misunderstandings I am not asking the EnB Staff to change the database back so it showed where things drop. Right now I am very pleasantly surprised they are running the database at all, and am thankful. My only point for posting was to say I disagree that making the information readily available of where to find things cheapens the game at all.

And, to Bidoc, you can look up the info on EnB Arsenal and/or ask people in the game where things drop. I guarantee if no one in General or Market knows it is either a cold day in hell or the item is not in the game yet.

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