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Bidoc

Loot Table

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I have noticed recently the number of players looking for a quick, easy way to level up has increased exponentially.

I can offer 3 reason for this.

1st, like water, most people will seek the easiest course.
I have no solution for this.

2nd, the loot tables are nerfed....
The frequency and quality of dropped items is way below par. There is little or no incentive to spend the time leveling the hard way, when there is no reward other than the xp and there are faster, easier ways to get that xp.
The drop frequency of most items should be increased. Perhaps divided into 4 tiers of availability.
1. Readily available if one is willing to invest a little time in hunting and waiting for the drop.
2. Moderately available with plenty of drop locations across the galaxy but with a significantly lower drop rate.
3. Rare items with a few drop locations across the galaxy and a drop rate only slightly less than the moderate.
4. Very rare items with perhaps a unique drop location and a moderate to low drop rate.

3rd, with all of the drop locations hidden in the database, even if you know what you're looking for, you have no way of locating it.
The solution is obvious here, unhide the drop locations of all but the most rare items.
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A small comment if I may. "All but the most rare drops" can still be found at the [url="http://enbarsenal.com/"]EnB Arsenal[/url], and some of the rare ones too. The only problem is more and more of that database is innacurate since that is not our database. However I would say on greater than 50% of it is accurate, and the rest is sorta accurate. For example I was hunting CL 23 Chavez and they were dropping some stuff that the other Chavez in the area should've been dropping according to the Arsenal. So it wasn't dropping from the same mob it should have, but it was close enough that it could be found by someone who used that site as a guide of where to go for the item.

I have no comment about the rest of your post. I do not know why certain things are done at EnB Emu so I will not pretend that I do. I am sure they welcome suggestions, though I can't help but think they have heard these before and might have reasons for not following them.

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It's not that the loot table is nerffed its the loot table is false. all they have to do is link Net-7 to the server and ergo link the net-7 to the Arsenal.
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I think about the loot tables a lot. So much so that I realize I neither have a clue how they work nor would I have the mathematical or programing skills to say much about how they should be changed.

However, I have stated on another forum that I think the next major change to ST4 is to put ALL the devices in the game that were in Live (and only making exceptions for any individual device that would hurt ST4.) I believe this would help all players.

The DEVs should start with those devices injected into the game as a result of the bug sometimes referred to as HULK-A-THON because not everyone had levels or toons to exploit those bugs the way other players did, including myself. I thank the DEVs for their consideration of this!

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Bidoc,

1) I do, make both courses rocky and appear to be difficult to tread, then they will choose one and try it.
2) The loot tables are not "nerfed" they're not all in as intended yet. We're about 50% through the way of implementing them based on real data. What you guys have hunted for the last two years has been the result of us just going through and [b]randomly[/b] populating the mobs with items.

3) We're not making loot locations known from a live database connection, as previously stated you're more than welcome to develop your own resources but no live and professional game does this, neither shall we. It is an unrealistic expectation for anyone to think otherwise. Knowing where and how to get everything is boring to most people.
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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301160571' post='37211']
1) I do, make both courses rocky and appear to be difficult to tread, then they will choose one and try it.
[/quote]


huh?
what "both" courses are you refering to?

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301160571' post='37211']
3) We're not making loot locations known from a live database connection, as previously stated you're more than welcome to develop your own resources but no live and professional game does this, neither shall we. It is an unrealistic expectation for anyone to think otherwise. Knowing where and how to get everything is boring to most people.
[/quote]
not true, there are several games with live access to their db

but...

ok, how about making the db available for download and outside developement?

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301169327' post='37213']
huh?
what "both" courses are you refering to?


[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301169327' post='37212']
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]3) We're not making loot locations known from a live database connection, as previously stated you're more than welcome to develop your own resources but no live and professional game does this, neither shall we. It is an unrealistic expectation for anyone to think otherwise. Knowing where and how to get everything is boring to most people.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

not true, there are several games with live access to their db

but...

ok, how about making the db available for download and outside developement?
[/quote]

You were talking about always taking the easy path and not knowing the solution. Make both paths look hard, and the player will choose one and try and even though its harder they will probably succeed anyway resulting in a more rewarding play experience.

Really? Name 3 examples, with links to data offered by the creator, this is certainly a very new behavior of any mass market mmo I know. Wow doesn't do it, and they all copy wow nowadays just about, so let's see it. :D

To answer the latter question, sure but it'll be blank structure only with enough data needed to make the server boot when we do. I assume that's ok with everyone since it's all that would be provided in any other project.
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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301169327' post='37213']
ok, how about making the db available for download and outside developement?
[/quote]

I seriously do not know why anyone would provide this, as Kyp has said no MMO that i know of provides its drop locations, why should the EMU provide it?

At least they show that an item is in game and that it would drop unlike a normal MMO out there.

Also as Kyp said it does make the game too easy, I personally, and im sure others do as well, love trying to figure out what drops what, its boring otherwise and IMO to easy.

If you want information on were something drops, ask someone, simple as that. More than likely someone will know were you can get said item or drop that has taken time to find it.

There are resources out there to find a drop also, may not be 100% accurate, but they do point you in the right direction.

Otherwise Look for yourself, thats all part of the gaming experience.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301172904' post='37220']Really? Name 3 examples, with links to data offered by the creator, this is certainly a very new behavior of any mass market mmo I know. Wow doesn't do it, and they all copy wow nowadays just about, so let's see it. :D[/quote]
Does a wiki run by the game's creators count? Then guild wars wiki...

As for the emulator loot locations : gfg.

Not only is it good for explorer fetishists that loot locations are being kept under wraps, but it would be more so if they were somewhat shuffled from time to time. This is to keep things interesting as well as make loot databases difficult to set up.

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301174803' post='37225']
Does a wiki run by the game's creators count? Then guild wars wiki...

As for the emulator loot locations : gfg.

Not only is it good for explorer fetishists that loot locations are being kept under wraps, but it would be more so if they were somewhat shuffled from time to time. This is to keep things interesting as well as make loot databases difficult to set up.
[/quote]

I Laughed at this, sorry but IMO Guild Wars is not a real MMO, Its just rigged to give the feel of one.
Anyway Wiki's are not run by said company, no matter what the label, it is run by someone that gathered the data from other players that have found the items and drops.
Same as any 3rd party database.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301172904' post='37220']
You were talking about always taking the easy path and not knowing the solution. Make both paths look hard, and the player will choose one and try and even though its harder they will probably succeed anyway resulting in a more rewarding play experience.

Really? Name 3 examples, with links to data offered by the creator, this is certainly a very new behavior of any mass market mmo I know. Wow doesn't do it, and they all copy wow nowadays just about, so let's see it. :D

To answer the latter question, sure but it'll be blank structure only with enough data needed to make the server boot when we do. I assume that's ok with everyone since it's all that would be provided in any other project.
[/quote]

I'm loathe to mention this one, but, Eve has live access to their database. It takes a bit of digging here, but with a little poking around, you'll see the references and tools for accessing the live db. As a matter of fact, there are many player developed apps that do so.
http://code.google.com/p/eveonline-db/

Vendetta Online has access to their db and tools for doing so.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/16/17224

Star Trek Online is actively developing their database access.
http://www.startrekonline-credits.com/startrekonlineitemsdb/
http://n4g.com/news/504389/mmorpg-star-trek-online-captains-database-launched

Neverwinter Nights may not qualify as a true mmorpg since all servers are player hosted, but the entire db is installed with the game and modifiable by anyone wishing to. There is a very large community dedicated to doing so.

Is this really a mass market mmo, or a fan based effort to revive an old favorite?

As to the skeletal db, I think you misunderstood the request. You could do a database dump and make that available with none of the server software included.

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301175044' post='37226']
Anyway Wiki's are not run by said company, no matter what the label, it is run by someone that gathered the data from other players that have found the items and drops.
Same as any 3rd party database.
[/quote]
Maniac, I've turned on the kettle cuz ur about to get a warm cup of PWN.

See this [url="http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:About"]link[/url].

It says:
[quote]Guild Wars Wiki is the official English language wiki for Guild Wars. It is hosted by ArenaNet for the Guild Wars community to be managed and shaped by the community.[/quote]
In what way is hosting a wiki NOT endorsing loot locations and other game info being available for everyone?

Yeah that's right, down boy, down.

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[url="http://wiki.eve-id.net/CCP_Database_Dump_Resources"]http://wiki.eve-id.net/CCP_Database_Dump_Resources[/url]

That's the first link. Static means unchanging, this is not a live link. Also, anytime you see the word "dump" that's a snapshot, dumps are what we used to have publicly available before any tinkering with story began.

2nd link leads me to a forum thread under community projects for Vendetta Online that someone asks the question and 4-5 people say it isn't possible, at least not yet. Then the author clarifies that he or she wants to access an external database.

[url="http://www.startrekonline-credits.com/startrekonlineitemsdb/"]http://www.startrekonline-credits.com/startrekonlineitemsdb/[/url] (3rd party db)
[url="http://n4g.com/news/504389/mmorpg-star-trek-online-captains-database-launched"]http://n4g.com/news/504389/mmorpg-star-trek-online-captains-database-launched[/url] (probably ought to read the content of this link closer, I suspect you just searched via google)
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]
[/font][/color]
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]Neverwinter Nights may not qualify as a true mmorpg since all servers are player hosted, but the entire db is installed with the game and modifiable by anyone wishing to. There is a very large community dedicated to doing so."[/font][/color]

No, it's multiplayer, but not mass multiplayer. I am aware of how it works having been a modder for it in the past. :) Data from this is unique to each "server" that is running, but there are no databases, per se, just a lot of recorded info behind the scenes, scripts that perform functions based on character location and so on.
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]
[/font][/color]
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]Is the really a mass market mmo, or a fan based effort to revive an old favorite? [/font][/color]
[color=#444444][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,]
[/font][/color]
No, I guess not for the moment, but its our intent to run it like one because we want to build the user base back up. We can sit and compare all day, apples to oranges and so on but this WAS a mass market MMORPG, and out of the ones you've listed above EVE and STO would be considered the same. We're going to run it this way regardless unless the community decides we're not doing it right and leaves, so far we've received fairly positive feedback on most of the things we're doing.

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Couple of Questions I have to ask:

1)[b]Why would you want the entire drop database handed to you?[/b]

2)[b]How Long would you seriously play if it was just given to you?
[/b]
3)[b]Do you not think it would make the game boring within a few weeks or months down the road to know everything?[/b]

Legitimate questions you have to ask yourself. I personally do not play a game that everything is handed to me, makes it boring in the long run, and takes all the mystery out of the hunt. Edited by Maniac

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301175811' post='37228']
Maniac, I've turned on the kettle cuz ur about to get a warm cup of PWN.

See this [url="http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki:About"]link[/url].

It says:

In what way is hosting a wiki NOT endorsing loot locations and other game info being available for everyone?

Yeah that's right, down boy, down.
[/quote]

Is he really going to receive that PWN? He said it wasn't official, in that much he's wrong but at the same time you contended that [b]THEY[/b] updated it when I see here the words:

[quote name='Guild Wars Wiki']
[font="sans-serif"][size="2"]
[b]What is this website about?[/b]
[b]Guild Wars Wiki[/b] is the official English language [url="http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/wiki"]wiki[/url] for [url="http://www.guildwars.com/"]Guild Wars[/url]. It is hosted by [url="http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/ArenaNet"]ArenaNet[/url] for the Guild Wars community [b]to be managed and shaped by the community.[/b]
[/quote][/size][/font]
[font="sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="sans-serif"][size="2"]Note the part towards the end that's bolded.[/size][/font]

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301175811' post='37228']
It says:
Guild Wars Wiki is the official English language wiki for Guild Wars. [u]It is hosted by ArenaNet for the Guild Wars community to be managed and shaped by the community.[/u]
[/quote]

Sorry but you burned yourself here, Its managed by the community not the game designers.

My statement stands, [u]No Creators provide a Database[/u], its gathered and run by players.

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Ok, for eve here are 2 player developed apps that do access the live database.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EFT

http://evemon.battleclinic.com/

You should all remember, this is a suggestion with an endless number of permutations. So you don't want ALL drop locations known. Do you want ALL drop locations hidden?

Also, y'all are ignoring the rest of the post. I also suggested there should be more drops of many items and better quality to some.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301176261' post='37231']
Is he really going to receive that PWN? He said it wasn't official, in that much he's wrong but at the same time you contended that [b]THEY[/b] updated it when I see here the words:

[/size][/font]
[font="sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="sans-serif"][size="2"]Note the part towards the end that's bolded.[/size][/font]
[/quote]
A wiki is open to anyone by it's very nature. You are mixing up the obvious because you have a hard time admitting defeat :)

Can't you at least admit that the creator endorses it by hosting it and therefore you are [s]pwnt[/s] a little mistaken?

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301176412' post='37232']
Sorry but you burned yourself here, Its managed by the community not the game designers.

My statement stands, [u]No Creators provide a Database[/u], its gathered and run by players.
[/quote]
So hosting a wiki it is not providing a database?

What an upside-down world we live in :D

Maniac you are only making it worse for yourself, so keep talking :)

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I acculy agree with seru if you had everything given to you you would probaly have a maxed TE with all rare launchers within 1/8 the time that it took somone to get them w/h looking at the database,

The database was created to help Newbies find out what is needed to BUILD somthing not where it drops.

all in all the drop locations will be missed however it will make the game harder which to me personaly will make the game more enjoyable

Jones

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301176992' post='37234']
[u]Ok, for eve here are 2 player developed apps that do access the live database.[/u]

[/quote]

Exactly, Player Developed.
Im sure someone out there could make a program to access the database, but that just re-enforces what Kyp and I have said, everything is not handed to the player, the player develops the tools and researches to gain the information not the other way around.

Again I have to point you to my questions:

[b]1)Why would you want the entire drop database handed to you?

2)How Long would you seriously play if it was just given to you?

3)Do you not think it would make the game boring within a few weeks or months down the road to know everything?[/b]

[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301177288' post='37236']
So hosting a wiki it is not providing a database?

What an upside-down world we live in :D

Maniac you are only making it worse for yourself, so keep talking :)
[/quote]

Your already burning yourself yet again, already pointed out to you and guess have to again, They may have [b]endorsed[/b] it however they [b]did not[/b] provide the information, a [b]player[/b] provided it, not the company.
Try again. Edited by Maniac

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[quote name='Bidoc' timestamp='1301176992' post='37234']
Ok, for eve here are 2 player developed apps that do access the live database.

[url="http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EFT"]http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EFT[/url]

[url="http://evemon.battleclinic.com/"]http://evemon.battleclinic.com/[/url]

You should all remember, this is a suggestion with an endless number of permutations. So you don't want ALL drop locations known. Do you want ALL drop locations hidden?

Also, y'all are ignoring the rest of the post. I also suggested there should be more drops of many items and better quality to some.
[/quote]

First, stop using EVE as an example, they offer an API that allows [b]limited[/b] access not a direct connection. They've been doing that for a year or two now. We don't want [b]any[/b] drop locations being known from the live database, at least not by our hand. I didn't ignore half your original post, as I stated previously, we're about 50% of teh way through repopulating the mobs with corrected loot, and will balance from there.

[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2][quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301177147' post='37235']
A wiki is open to anyone by it's very nature. You are mixing up the obvious because you have a hard time admitting defeat :)

Can't you at least admit that the creator endorses it by hosting it and therefore you are [s]pwnt[/s] a little mistaken?
[/quote]

By the very nature of that argument, you fail. :D

The request was for US to provide this information. We're not going to do it. I didn't argue with the fact that the creator hosted, in fact I agreed with you above that it was "official" but pointed out that by their own about page, which you so kindly linked they said they don't touch it, its entirely the player base. Nice try though.[/size][/font]

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1301177532' post='37238']Your already burning yourself yet again, already pointed out to you and guess have to again, They may have [b]endorsed[/b] it however they [b]did not make it[/b] nor provide the information, a [b]player[/b] provided it, not the company.
Try again.
[/quote]
Well, they actually did provide the information in the first place - it's their game.

A player is merely transferring that information in the same way an ant moves eggs around its nest.

So whether a game's creator provided the actual drop info is trivial, because hosting a wiki is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a drop database.

Lastly Maniac, please have this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdCrZfTkG1c

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[quote name='Tyran' timestamp='1301180339' post='37242']
Well, [s]they actually did provide the information in the first place[/s] - it's their game.

A [b]player[/b] is merely transferring that information in the same way an ant moves eggs around its nest.

So [b]whether a game's creator provided the actual drop info[/b] is trivial, because hosting a wiki is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a drop database.

[/quote]

You did it again my friend.
Burned yourself.

First change i did is self evident. They did not provide nor hand out the information as in what MOB drops what.

Next is a [b]Player[/b] gained the information, through hard work, it [b]was not[/b] handed to him/her from the creators.

Now here is the kicker, you reinforced what Kyp and I said, It was [b]not given[/b] to the player, the [b]player[/b] found the information whether by making a program to access the database or finding the MOB that dropped it.

Try again.

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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1301176088' post='37229']
We're going to run it this way regardless unless the community decides we're not doing it right and leaves...[/quote]


So, in effect, you're saying, I'm the boss, I'm gonna do it my way and if you don't like it, there's the door.

Kind of reminds me of someone... initials EA

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