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Xiaolinmantis

Some high level items impossible for some of us to get

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The Issue

As the ADV, "Nadyra" / "Hestha" would tell you, myself and some others recently expressed some concern over certain items being pretty much impossible to obtain unless we have zero life outside this game. For example, I have been playing for about 5 months now and have never once seen Modi's Child or the Celestial Warder. I tried camping for the former for several hours on multiple days for a couple of weeks and then just gave up. Another guy told me he did the same thing for months and sometimes would sit for 6 hours and get nothing... think about that... 6 hours on some days and doing this for months without once seeing the boss. And even if he did get lucky and spot it, I've heard it's normally a camp-fest and you'd have to fight for it. Now don't get me wrong; I don't want things just handed to me.. that would be boring and suck the fun out of the game... but at the same time, I think the difficulty of obtaining some of these things is overkill... I have some suggestions on this, but 1 more example to make my point as well:

Obtaining the controller's core for the "Insane in the mainframe" mission is ridiculously difficult... one guy told me he's been playing for 5 years and only got it twice (and he's in the USA). I haven't even had the opportunity to go on a single troller raid yet and that's nobody's fault really... it's because I'm in Australia and thus, 13+ hours ahead of most of you guys... whenever my guild is doing the troller raid (usually 7pm EST), I'm just getting my kid to school in the morning... and then off to work. Again, that's just a shitty situation and nobody's fault. Fortunately I am told there is something called a public raid and that can be opened for those of us who don't normally get the opportunity to go on raids. This is the perfect solution for those of us in different timezones. However, I'm told only 1 guy can open that up for us and if we don't see him online, we have to wait. I've been waiting a long time indeed... and even if I did see him, I would have to hope there's others on and ready for it the same time as me anyway.

Proposed solutions

Regarding some bosses like Modi's child or the celestial warder, I think they could either be changed to be triggers (those work great and are very fair for everyone - it prevents camp fests and allows everyone a fair chance) or else if you don't want triggers, then change the spawn rate, but make it so the boss doesn't always drop the nice items. For example, Desash the Plague spawns every hour or so and doesn't always drop the Plague's Bite. That seems to work out nicely. I believe Modi's child spawns once a day and always drops the Breath of Life. How about making it more like Desash? It doesn't have to spawn every hour, but maybe 2, 3 or 4 times per day and doesn't always drop the BoL... I think that would be a little more fair.

As for the raids thing, this is a difficult one.. especially for those of us outside the US.. one possible solution might be to make the controller's core tradeable? Otherwise, expand the public raid server idea and give more than 1 member of staff the ability to open it up so that we have more chance of being able to do one of those (I wouldn't have to wait weeks or months to catch the 1 guy who can open it up).

Or else maybe someone else has some better ideas, I'm not sure. All I know is the way it is right now is not working out so well for everyone..

Basically, timed spawns generally suck... triggers are best and the most fair.. but otherwise used timed spawns in a sensible way (similar to Desash the Plague)

 

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In my opinion, most items in the game are too easy to get.  Compare this to live (or other commercial MMO's), you're talking about ultra-rare items that only a small number of players would ever see.  Yet, the expectation here is that everyone should be able to get the best reactor for a Terran in a matter of a few days.  The skull shield and the celestial turbo's are supposed to be the rarest loot drops in the game, in other MMO's "casual" players would never see an item like that, why would you expect to here?

Mantis, you mentioned that you've been playing for 5 months, well what about those players that have been playing for 5 years?  What's their incentive be to keep playing if the rarest items in the game could be obtained within the first 5 months?  I've seen a lot of players get all the gear and then quit because they've run out of things to do.

As for the solutions, what's wrong with a camp fest?...the warder is about the only place where you actually compete for something in this game.  You gotta come well prepared, either with friends or multiple toons, but then it's really up to whoever starts shooting first since he will go down fairly quick.  And by the way, the warder already doesn't always drop the good loot, it's entirely possible to camp it for 3 days, kill it, and walk away with a Boon of the Celestial.

Mark, you did make a good point that the player base is going down, but that is making the rare items easier to get with fewer people competing for them.  If anything, spawn rate on the rare loot and raid triggers should be increased to reflect the smaller player base.

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There are plans already made for Modi's Child.

I won't go into details as that would spoil the surprise but it has been identified as an opportunity for improvement.

The V'rix content is currently taking up most development time from a content viewpoint.

Server migration is taking up more than a lot of time for the server team.

Apart from that there is other stuff going on in the background that will be a great benefit once completed.

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20 hours ago, Xiaolinmantis said:

As the ADV, "Nadyra" / "Hestha" would tell you, myself and some others recently expressed some concern over certain items being pretty much impossible to obtain unless we have zero life outside this game.

As is true with almost every MMORPG that has been made to date.

WIth respect to PRS, you can see my response in your other thread where you mention it. It has to be run by a GM, we have a few GMs, not 1. It is however dependent on their availability because they are not paid for acting as our game masters.

 

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1 hour ago, Kyp said:

As is true with almost every MMORPG that has been made to date.

You mean like Eve? Yes, they like to milk their players big-time in that game. I tried it right after sunset, and I gave up very quickly with that - just a couple of months and I was bored to death. And I've spoken with quite a few players here that feel the same; they don't come here for another Eve.. but for something a lot more fun... which you can sit down to and have fun within minutes. I can understand why Eve make things so hard... because they're milking people for money - they want to keep people hanging around forever.

But this emu is free, so why not play by different rules? Why not make all raids triggered? That works wonderfully for GR and FB... We can do that whenever we feel like it then - without having to worry about which guild's turn it is or whatever. Obviously you should make the trigger very hard to build in that case.. I don't have any problem with difficulty.. I have a problem with impossible. I want to know that if I keep working at it, I will eventually be able to get that particular item... even if it takes weeks or months.. that's fine... but not being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel is very much depressing. Take the following variables into account for troller raid:

- it doesn't spawn often
- gotta make sure it's our turn (and not the turn of another guild)
- the core rarely ever drops
- if it does drop, you have to do a lotto and hope you get lucky.

Just the above variables alone is why 1 guy (from the USA) told me he only ever got it twice in 5 years of playing. Now add the following variable:

- timezone which is outside USA (circa 13 hours in my case)

So... I'm looking at that and thinking there's no way in hell I'm ever getting a core. Waiting months, no problem... waiting years or more likely forever... not cool. And bear in mind... this is even taking into account that I have been playing like a maniac for these 5 months... if I were to try have a more balanced life and only play an hour or so per day, it would be even more impossible. Just telling you that so you don't think I'm just an occasional player and demanding to have it all... which is how everyone seems to want to treat those of us who bring these concerns up. I have been playing like a mad man.

Until recently, I had in fact been playing 6+ hours per day on most days and screwing over my health and family life because of this game... I've had to stop that for obvious reasons and trying to slow down now. But the point is this: even when playing like a maniac, it's still pretty much impossible to get certain things. So it's no wonder people are losing interest.. if they feel they will never be able to accomplish much, of course they're going to call it quits. I've had the same thoughts myself recently... Mostly I'm sticking around for the story-line now... I've pretty much given up on raids that are not triggered and with spawned bosses like the warder and modi's child.

Why not try to keep people's interest (which as Mark pointed out and Flip agreed, the player base is plummeting right now)?

Yes there are some die-hards that don't mind sticking around for years and years before they get something.. good for them. I truly do admire that.. but that's not for everyone. Do you really only want to appeal to those few die-hards and ignore the rest of us? You might not get so many people leaving the game if you did something about this.

My apologies for a long winded response and if it sounded a bit like a rant.. it's not; I just want you to see where some of us are coming from.. basically all I'm saying is it would be good to make sure everything is actually possible to get. Waiting weeks or months is perfectly reasonable so long as it is in fact possible. Waiting years for something is madness. I don't care what other MMOs do.. they're doing it to milk people... how's that relevant to this emu?

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27 minutes ago, Xiaolinmantis said:

You mean like Eve? Yes, they like to milk their players big-time in that game. I tried it right after sunset, and I gave up very quickly with that - just a couple of months and I was bored to death. And I've spoken with quite a few players here that feel the same; they don't come here for another Eve.. but for something a lot more fun... which you can sit down to and have fun within minutes. I can understand why Eve make things so hard... because they're milking people for money - they want to keep people hanging around forever.

But this emu is free, so why not play by different rules? Why not make all raids triggered? That works wonderfully for GR and FB... We can do that whenever we feel like it then - without having to worry about which guild's turn it is or whatever. Obviously you should make the trigger very hard to build in that case.. I don't have any problem with difficulty.. I have a problem with impossible. I want to know that if I keep working at it, I will eventually be able to get that particular item... even if it takes weeks or months.. that's fine... but not being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel is very much depressing. Take the following variables into account for troller raid:

- it doesn't spawn often
- gotta make sure it's our turn (and not the turn of another guild)
- the core rarely ever drops
- if it does drop, you have to do a lotto and hope you get lucky.

Just the above variables alone is why 1 guy (from the USA) told me he only ever got it twice in 5 years of playing. Now add the following variable:

- timezone which is outside USA (circa 13 hours in my case)

So... I'm looking at that and thinking there's no way in hell I'm ever getting a core. Waiting months, no problem... waiting years or more likely forever... not cool. And bear in mind... this is even taking into account that I have been playing like a maniac for these 5 months... if I were to try have a more balanced life and only play an hour or so per day, it would be even more impossible. Just telling you that so you don't think I'm just an occasional player and demanding to have it all... which is how everyone seems to want to treat those of us who bring these concerns up. I have been playing like a mad man.

Until recently, I had in fact been playing 6+ hours per day on most days and screwing over my health and family life because of this game... I've had to stop that for obvious reasons and trying to slow down now. But the point is this: even when playing like a maniac, it's still pretty much impossible to get certain things. So it's no wonder people are losing interest.. if they feel they will never be able to accomplish much, of course they're going to call it quits. I've had the same thoughts myself recently... Mostly I'm sticking around for the story-line now... I've pretty much given up on raids that are not triggered and with spawned bosses like the warder and modi's child.

Why not try to keep people's interest (which as Mark pointed out and Flip agreed, the player base is plummeting right now)?

Yes there are some die-hards that don't mind sticking around for years and years before they get something.. good for them. I truly do admire that.. but that's not for everyone. Do you really only want to appeal to those few die-hards and ignore the rest of us? You might not get so many people leaving the game if you did something about this.

My apologies for a long winded response and if it sounded a bit like a rant.. it's not; I just want you to see where some of us are coming from.. basically all I'm saying is it would be good to make sure everything is actually possible to get. Waiting weeks or months is perfectly reasonable so long as it is in fact possible. Waiting years for something is madness. I don't care what other MMOs do.. they're doing it to milk people... how's that relevant to this emu?

I mean like: EVE, WoW, Final Fantasy XI and XIV, Star Wars Galaxies (when it was a thing), Star Wars the Old Republic, Ultima Online, Everquest, and at least 20 others that I don't feel like listing right now. :)

You're right, some of the Raids could be done in better ways, but again this goes back to development efforts and number of people trying to keep all this running. It takes a lot of work to do a raid, because it requires a lot of testing. We have to balance loot so that there's a reason for people to come back and raid again thus to help other players achieve the loot they want. There are a great many concerns when you're planning a game state that most players don't consider. What about the economy if you can sell item X? What about the devaluation to players who have been able to earn it (or, get lucky as you put it).

I get it, camping sucks, but at the same time on the alternate end of the scale when everything is a button push or easy it ruins the game. We can't please everyone all the time, some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time and all that.

Of course I want people to play as long as possible, but not because I'm trying to milk them for money, I want them to enjoy the game. What many don't think about is the typical AAA game team is 10-20 people, we have about 4 active content developers other than myself, and 1 programmer other than me. This kind of limits the speed at which we can design and implement changes.

All I can say is stay tuned, because after the server move we are redoing some of the tools which should aid in speeding things up for content but until then we can only do what we can do.

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Thank you, Kyp. Very nice response. I've never played any of those games except EVE for a short time. And in fact, I don't generally play any games - especially MMOs.. I'm more of a single-player FPS player.. except for E&B which is just plain awesome.  :-)

Please don't misunderstand me: I fully get that this is all volunteer work and you don't have many staff. I have no intention of bitching and hurrying you guys up.. that would be a terrible attitude for anyone to have. I was only bringing this to your attention. After all, how can you accommodate the requests of the players if you don't know what those requests are? This forum (Suggestions) is exactly for this kind of thing, right? So that's all I'm doing: letting you know our concerns and suggesting some solutions... and trying to get a discussion going so we can all come to some agreement / some middle ground.

Looking forward to see what's coming in future.

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23 hours ago, Xiaolinmantis said:

After all, how can you accommodate the requests of the players if you don't know what those requests are?

The advocate, of course. :)

The point of that position is to bring things that the majority of players are bothered by to the forefront where possible. Suggestions are good, but depending on what they are we may or may not implement etc. Of course, this is why it is a suggestion, lol.

 

I understand, stay tuned.

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So it's been nearly 2 years, I just recently started playing again and I'm surprised that things like the Celestial Warder are still so difficult to catch a spawn on given the small playerbase... can we get a revival on this and maybe a simple trigger for those of us that work full time, have families, but still want to make the most out of this game?

 

I don't see why you couldn't just make the droprate on items lower and add a trigger that anyone could initiate, but only once ever 55 hours or so. It gives everyone a fair chance at dropping the boss, but at the same time the lowered droprate on items would still make it a roll of the lucky dice.

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