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Balance Fever


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Recent events indicate to me that we've come up against a case of "Balance Fever".  The Devs have seen fit to re-calculate damage and buff effects in a series of updates in recent months that all indicate to me that there is a desire to "Balance" the content...

 

Perhaps it is good I've already developed all of my toons and I am now in "Limbo" waiting for content because these balance changes are not going to slow me down..

 

 

But I can say from my experience in games I've played in the past... there are three reasons I have left games and never come back...

 

1. Dead player base...
2. Balanced into oblivion... Causing #1

3. PvP Swarming... Causing #1

4. Time and energy available to play

5. Cost v.s. gain

6. Lack of content... Causing #1

 

My recommendation to the Dev team...

 

Making sweeping, seemingly random, changes to decrease player avatar performance is like cancer... you tweak one to fix it, then you have to tweak another and another until all of the classes are running around with nerf bats and unable to solo at all..  

 

The ideal that it will drive players to group up and play is a fantasy that will only result in more and more multiboxing and lower player base....

 

I play solo 99% of the time... I can't login 6 toons and fly a self-supporting group, so you will very quickly cause my ability to play to evaporate...

 

You should be looking for ways to make all classes viable in solo conditions, not the other way around...

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What you must understand from a game developer perspective is that it is our job to both make the game enjoyable and to prolong the experience (although not to the degree EA did since we're not in it for profit). Please define the term 'PVP Swarming' i'm not familiar with it.

 

We can't control 4, 6 is in progress look for the poll i mentioned on the chalkboard, the Advocate is set to post that later this afternoon, the responses to that poll will determine how soon you see content The cost vs. gain, cost being we have some upset players over the fact that what they're used to has been changed, even if it was wrong previously and the gain is that for other players it should make the game challenging and thus rewarding to defeat classes.

 

If I wanted to go change heavy like you're suggesting we've been doing, I would redesign all 9 classes and put all the skills where they should be based on the fact that all 9 are in. I haven't done this. Bear this in mind when describing what we have done as ham-handed heavy changes or implying such. :)

 

The question is, why in an online game do you want to be totally solo? I understand wanting to be able to play solo SOMETIMES, but you shouldn't for any reason expect to take on the biggest mobs or encounters in the game solo, if you do, that's the problem. As I've said to one of your previous posts I think, adjusting everything up around something that is clearly broken is a non-option because it would mean also adjusting 3000 mobs to match, that's no easy task and is an irrational way to fix it. Oftentimes players don't take things like this into consideration when they make such a post, were you?

 

Our goals when we started this project were very simple:

  • Produce a playable version of Earth & Beyond
  • Try to include as much as we can of the original live game as baseline based on data and detail that we had.

 

that's it, and that's what we're doing. As I've said in at least 2 other posts regarding the beams, that's what we did. Changes come to every online game, if that can't be accepted by people i'm not sure what to say. I won't hold the game exactly as it is if I KNOW something's wrong. I've seen people make these arguments time and again post other changes and frankly they mostly just irk us now rather than help us.

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Daath,

 

I understand your concern about solo and I am working to address those concerns on the project I am working on.

I know how hard it can be to solo sometimes and I want to make solo and group based content.

If you have any suggestions on what I am doing by all means please help and comment.

 

https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/9392-role-specializations-weapons-equipment/

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They got a damn tough job, and I will admit it that I have been against alot fo stuff done, but it is impossible to make everyone happy, and to prove that look at the population thats gone from over 500 last winter to around 250 this winter.  I actually left for a bit waiting for some new content thats long over due, but I try to be patient as much as I can hoping to see those great areas we loved in live, I just hope we see them before the pop dips too far down.

Edited by Fleson
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I take my hat off to the team as it is as you cannot please everyone, and i think that if the team doubled in size then maybe seriuos head way could be made in terms of pushing new content.

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Did beams receive yet another damage nerf. Because since the combat-cloak bug fix I am noticing less damage (again). Am I just tripping?

 

Edit: Okay I am not tripping. Many other angry Jenquai.

Edited by FishJD
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Chill people. The cc in all was a fixing of a bug. (check most other proper games)

As for the PSI shield not doing enough to avoid mob skills, that I agree.

JD is meant to be an rogue, and that it fits its role perfectly. It should never be meant to out dps the PW. To make a point to realism, knights in medieval times were the premier damage dealer. They hit and take the damage. For rouges, they wait for the right time to hit, do damage and hide again. They survive through sneak attacks.

If a JD is doing much more dps than the PW and on top of that, the PW has to tank the mob, it does not make sense. In fact, I will love to see beam damages go down slightly but give a big bonus to critical strike when coming out of cloak. (maybe take away the 100% damage bonus but put in 20% chance to do 3x damage? Also, a chance to "cripple" the mob. cripple would be something like gravitylink + slow mob fire rate etc)

 

It effect, I suggest overall dps down but big strikes coming in with status aliment. .

In a raid, if I am any other class, I'll prefer to have a pw to tank and do dps rather than a jd that pulls agro towards other group members.

Between, I am a avid JD and I love the cloak hit style. I love playing rouge characters in RPG, I love doing occasional critical critical  strikes that show big numbers.

The dev does have a tough job to ensure that each class has sufficient lovers and that the game is balanced throughout and the group play is encouraged.

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Chill people. The cc in all was a fixing of a bug. (check most other proper games)

As for the PSI shield not doing enough to avoid mob skills, that I agree.

JD is meant to be an rogue, and that it fits its role perfectly. It should never be meant to out dps the PW. To make a point to realism, knights in medieval times were the premier damage dealer. They hit and take the damage. For rouges, they wait for the right time to hit, do damage and hide again. They survive through sneak attacks.

If a JD is doing much more dps than the PW and on top of that, the PW has to tank the mob, it does not make sense. In fact, I will love to see beam damages go down slightly but give a big bonus to critical strike when coming out of cloak. (maybe take away the 100% damage bonus but put in 20% chance to do 3x damage? Also, a chance to "cripple" the mob. cripple would be something like gravitylink + slow mob fire rate etc)

 

It effect, I suggest overall dps down but big strikes coming in with status aliment. .

In a raid, if I am any other class, I'll prefer to have a pw to tank and do dps rather than a jd that pulls agro towards other group members.

Between, I am a avid JD and I love the cloak hit style. I love playing rouge characters in RPG, I love doing occasional critical critical  strikes that show big numbers.

.

Sneezebullshitsneeze ! No Religious playing JD wants to have their skills changed ! You are no Jenquai so says your Avatar Race and Profession.

 

I will say this about Psionic Shield, I am Ok with its strength it just takes to dam long for activation.

 

Weapons DPS should not be used as the sole reason for a Class or Races Kill rate and survivability in combat !

The use of ALL weapons and ALL skill usage should have a formula for total Damage AND making the NPC or Player (PvP) unable to use a weapon and or skill (Hack, Energy Leech, Shield Sap, Menace etc etc)

You want to do better in DPS?, upgrade your Energy Leech, Menace, Hack or Shield leech or what ever.

 

Base Weapons DPS  from the warrior classes should be very close, I agree that the PW should edge the other warrior classes in DPS (per level per weapon) by a small margin. Only base weapons DPS.

They have six weapons they should. BUT...

 

If either Class makes one mistake in combat the difference is a higher or lower Weapon/Skill DPS.

You make a mistake or have the wrong character build your dead.

 

With those calculations ALL the warrior class should be Very very close in Combat kill rate and survibility.

The use of their Skills, devices and the timing of use will be the KEY determination . Period !

The other classes will follow closely behind.

 

Its kind of like how a healers threat or aggro is caluclated.

 

This of coarse is based on every skill and device working perfectly as intended and that of your / their

resistances.

 

All I have to say, DEVs is your doing right by me, take Smaller steps if your going to do something

in reguards to balance.

The last thing we want to do is two steps forward and one step back.

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One thing many of you are missing and so focused on DPS. If you go by straight DPS without CC even the JD would be weaker than a TT or PS because Jens DO NOT do damage on a straight DPS scale because of CC.

 

Since there is a 3 to 4 second delay (depending on how fast you can press button and the lag time of your connection) between CC bonus and firing you actually have to use a DPC (Damage Per Cloak) formula to get a accurate damage output. In fact just look at the types of Debuff devices in game and types of weapons used.

 

Jenquai are suppose to be "Kings of the Beam" yet when you look at the stats and bonuses given by weapons the Jenquai beams are not really that much better (and worst in a few cases) than beams from other races, let alone other weapon types. The Plasma beam is the default used by many Jenquai because it is the only class they can get a debuff for that allows them to do decent damage ....Why you ask.....  well the answer is a large majority of MOBS in game have high Energy resistance and EMPs do not damage hulls. The funny thing Plasma beams are actually Terran beams not Jenquai which makes one really scratch their head as to why the "King of Beams" have to use beams from another race to actually be able to play their race in combat. I fact there is several high lvl debuff devices that actually give Terran ability to get explosive debuff and Progen to get impact debuff ...... but there is NO high level device that gives all Jenquai Energy debuff ( except for one lvl 9 beam weapon that is not even in game, how surprising) which further nerfs the Jenquai from using there own weapons (doing combat with a Jenquai Seeker does not cut it).

 

Progen Projectile are the best race made in game

 

Terran Missles are the best race made in game

 

Jenquai beams are so so compared to other race made beams in game.

 

SO even with CC energy beams are useless against higher level MOBs because of the high resistances they have to energy (alot more MOBS are either immune or close to it compared to other damage types).

 

Because JD has very weak shields/hull compared to other races without PSI shields they would very frequently be killed (especially when you get some lag and you think you cloaked but did not and got shot) as it is a skill that tries to make up for lack of strong shields, but still is weaker when everything is totaled up.

 

What I am seeing lately is that there seems to be Anti Jen feelings toward the Jen race in game ( both from players and DEVs) because they most closely represent the "good guys" in the game and it seems to be the fad in games as of late that everyone wants to play the bad guys. I guess people want to do stuff in a game they can not do in real life and that creates a "hate the badge" complex for anything that represents the "good guys" in a game. This was the same problem in the original EnB because DEVs from EA saw that many more players were Progen or Terran so they catered to them and started nerfing Jen, mostly because there was a PvP aspect to the game then and they were profit driven.

 

 

So after all that the DEVs still think that not only was the most recent nerf of the Jenquai damage output not enough but they want to nerf them even more ...... guess that is one way to get rid of players for a  race indirectly.

Edited by Gunsmith Dan
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If  a PW does the same damage as a JD with CC then I demand L9 shields for all Jenquai characters. Glass canon anyone???? sigh

Btw....

As a fully maxed out Grandmaster I still lack a skill while all others can access all their skills. Again sigh.

(Compulsory Contemplation, remember? Might even make some use during raids?)

 

Raids seem to be PW's mostly anyway from what I have sen of late. Debuffing by mobs no where near as it should.

Mostly piont and shoot and skill needed? Nah, too difficult I guess to make raids won with skills needed.

 

Perhaps we could use a developer for Jenquai's again as from my piont of view we have a little to much Progan of late.

 

Ooh, btw can we have some more variation of usefull beams? Plasma is indeed getting really old.

 

Or maybe it's time I get 4 mounts for beams too on a Grandmaster.

The other support Jenquai has it (Jenquai Seeker) just like the support terran (Terran scout has 4 mounts too and it is an explorer class).

Edited by TheLostDissiple
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Grandmasters don't need four mounts. We're not supposed to be combatants. You want to fight, play a warrior class. I think the JE, with the ability to mount six devices, is, outside of combat, the most versatile of the characters in the game. And played correctly, with cloak and fold space, damn near impossible to kill. JE's don't run out of energy, and I've had my sig as low as -0.6. I rarely get touched in raids, even while spamming shield leech. My JE has died twice in the past six months, both times to pop rocks.

 

As for the PW, they are supposed to be the bad asses of the galaxy. While I can solo just fine with him, I can still solo just as well on my JD, and in some cases have a better chance of survival, since the JD can pull off the same cloak/fold space skills that a JE can. Sure you'll see a good number of PW's on raids. Someone has to be the tank, right? It sure as hell won't be the JD. The JD's summon skill alone make him worth being in most groups.

 

However, I do agree that Jennie beams can use some love. We're supposed to be the best with them. Add a few buffs. Make good ones a bit easier to get. I still know a lot of players with lv 9 beams using ruby disruptors, like one of my Jennies. I find it much easier to get the top of the line weapons for Progens and Terrans then I do for Jennies. I think it is even more important for Jenquai to get those top end weapons, since Jenquai are limited to damage types (no explosive, no chemical, no impact, and who really uses EMP beams?).

 

Maybe a special mission that allows one Jennie class to get lv 9 projectiles? I am experimenting with projectiles on my JS since I don't need him for build skills. The Jennie is quite an effective combatant with projectile weapons, since power is not an issue. You might also see more versatility in the game as far as ship diversification. Just a thought.

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Fine then make sure PvP never enters this game.

Still the Terran scout is an explorer and has 4 mounts and the Progan Sentinal 5 mounts so I would gladly trade 1 device for 1 weapon mount just to be just as efficient as Jenquai Seeker.

Low signature is not the issue, it is the low amount of firepower I as a JE have as non-combatant compaired to other explorer-classes or non-combatants overall.

 

Btw... if you consider PL9 on Jenquai's you again need to test on the Jenquai with the lowest amount of mounts... JS has 4 mounts remember... sigh

 

Or create L9 beams with a bit more Ooopmh that are JE only to put them on an equal footing when it come to the semi-usefullness in raids.

Edited by TheLostDissiple
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No one needs a JE in a raid group for DPS, so the hell with the oomph. Their shield leech and reactor recharge, combined with the crowd control of fold space make them valuable as it is. The game is set up so that every character has its place, and a JE certainly has its place. Someone has to be the wimp of the galaxy, and it's the JE. Who the hell plays a JE for combat anyway? I have a good deal of fun just mining or playing support in a group. I can solo well enough when needed. The day a JE can take down a lv 58 in close to the same time a warrior can is the day the game is truly unbalanced. I have no issue killing something my level on my JE. If I am in a true killing mood, I'm certainly not riding around in my JE. I know I can't fight as well with my JE, but I also know that the game is set up that way, and frankly, I don't care. I can do anything I need to do with my JE. That's good enough for me.

 

What the heck does PvP have to do with any of this?

 

I think I know that a JS only has four mounts...so does a PS, eh? I can solo well enough on my PS, I'm sure I can do the same on a JS...I have so far.

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Crowd control.. Oke, I will bite. Get me my Compulsory Contemplation asap then, oke?

And sure during raids people want to fly all over going after mobs or behind them... The JD with group summon will love my crowd folding.

And yeah the PS has 4 mounts so my bad.

 

Reactor recharge.. a good reactor and a martyrs heart works wonders I am told. From what I saw during raids it was TT's running out of reactor power because of the overall firepower was lacking...

When it comes to taking down a L60 I can. It just take ages as it should. Were I to do so on a JS I would take less time. So that's a non-issue.

My piont was never about being able to outgun a warrior so what's that about?

 

Play a JE and try to join raids then come back.

 

Btw giving L9 PL's to Jenquai as a race is not a solution either as a JD with 5x L9 PL's would be OP by default. Getting a L9 device extending the range of a beam to projectiles-range would be more sensible as most group-drivers in raids keep their group at PL-range and never in beam range.

 

 

Frankly when you suggest we Jenquai should then opt for PL's via a mission is like basically saying:. "Stop being the race you selected to play but become a Progan"  I mean.... Seriously?

 

When I debuff or shield- leech I am always in front of the group in the raids I was in.

Edited by TheLostDissiple
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I think that the JE is fine as far as his firepower is concerned.  JE mostly needs to be able to fight off orefield guardians.  The only thing that the JE lacks is diversity of plasma beam selections after Beam Weapon 7.   This same problem applies to the JW & JT.  I do think there should be some beams that are awesome, which should be rare & hard to get.  Occasionally a new awesome beam should be added, but for now I'd rather see more beams to choose from whose DPS is average for their beam level.  L9 plasma beams that fall between Pitbull Sr. &  Defender's Pride in DPS while having varying buffs & reload rates would be examples of useful but not awesome.  The devs are addressing this, they added an awesome beam a while back with the Made to Live for JE & JT, they have a useful but not awesome line of beams in the database that doesn't drop yet in the Jaguar line (L7-L9).

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I play my JE in raids. I don't do much damage, but that is not my job. Think of each ship as a tool. Every tool has its place, part of a team. You want to do damage? Don't play a JE. You want to do crowd control or buff or heal? Don't play a PW. That's not its job in raids. Does it really bother you that much?

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In group or raid situations the JE's job is to support the warriors & traders, rather than being the damage dealers.  We get skills like Shield Leech and Jumpstart to help there.  We also get to group cloak, while the other Jenquai only get L5 Combat Cloak.  We have good debuffers in the Chimaera & Coma lines of devices.  Chimaera debuffs Plasma, Coma debuffs Scan Range.  Coma could probably use a little work, but the point of it is that mobs cannot shoot things they cannot see.  We get devices that allow us to transfer reactor energy to other group members.  So in a raid we can provide power, buff friends, hide our group members, debuff enemies, and Jumpstart other players as needed.

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Oke I will bite (again).

  • Group cloak has been a non-factor in all the raids I was in so far. (Sure, we love to see mobs wander off.)
  • Coma... Have you played in raids and used a Coma of late? Think again. Coma is deemed a No-No.
  • Chimeara oke.. Usefull and also something a JD/JS could deploy (not to mention other device's or ML's can do that debuff too).
  • Pheonix device/scumtum's sometimes usefull. Most of the time not really as a good reactor + martyr's heart device covers that.(Never really seen reactor issue's unless multiboxing was a bit overdone).
  • We JE can provide a group bonus buff for extra reactor-recharging sure. But when shield-leeching or debuffing the group usually is not in good range as the normal range group tend to be at it Projectile launcher range. So when I was part of a raid I was not formed up simply to be able to SHield-Leech/debuff or get some damage in.
  • Jumpstart... TS/PS can do that too with 4 ML's/PL's so they can add to the overal DPS so they dont suffer from the default range most drivers tend to be at with is projectile launcher range.
  • I asked once if the tank wanted enviromental shielding (at top level it adds energy convertion to all group members. (Anser was it was not needed.)

Scan-range is something I could provide but with the devices available some of the warriors don't need even that.

With most raid buffing is done at the start an alt for the tankers is more efficient and basically not really needed if the tanks do theirs jobs right after.

 

What I tend to see here is feedback from a technical piont of view rather from a practical one.

Edited by TheLostDissiple
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There are always JE's and JD's on the raids I am on. They debuff, control the crowd, summon, restart the dead, sometimes heal (JS), and make sure my reactor is always good. The low sig of the JE (I can get mine to -0.6) means that the jumpstarter won't die unless they do something stupid. It's no fun when your PS jumpstarter gets smoked himself. I'm happy with a JE. They also leech after the summmon...which also allows the Progens to sap as well. That's a lot of instant damage. And having those Jennies means that when I'm on my PW, I feel no worry and just keep blasting away. I know that I won't have to chase after mobs, I know I won't run out of power, I know I have good scan range, and I know that if I get ganged up someone will toss a few of the baddies away for me....that is a practical point of view validated by practice and results.

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What I would like is for the NPCs and the other players reactor to be as visible as their Shields and Hulls are.

As a JD my assault would be on the NPCs reactor and Shields at the same time.

If I could see direct damage and level of their reactors that would be awesome.

 

I so want to use a good EMP Beam(s) but I just can't make the leap from Plasma to EMP

until I know without a doubt that I can control the NPCs Reactor levels and inflict Shield Damage at the same time. Sweeet !

 

Add a Device for Equipment Engineering and swap in another Plasma or Energy and get to work on the Hull. Heheh Alll Yaaa !

I can take away their ability to use their skills, devices or Shoot Me, For a Jenquai Thats Important !

In solo or group combat, thats devastating !!

Then those Items that Cripple Reactors (Activated) get fixed/Done they will be so useful and needed.

You can keep your Martyr's Heart, Why would I want to drain my shield when My Energy Leech does

so much more for me and my group.

 

Here's a Most excelent Jenquai Only Device or Terran Scout Skill, The Ability to knock off .50 seconds (per level) off

any skill, Device or Reload timer for 120 to 1100 seconds duration.

 

I am Jenquai, we  I have learned to be patient.

Small steps DEVs, small steps.

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I think it would GREATLY help ALL Jenquai if they would actually put the Magnified Solar Energy Channeler Beam IN the game as it is in the DB. That would once again allow Jenquai to actually USE energy beams instead of wasting space in the game server DB for weapons no one ever uses past level 3 unless they dirt poor.

 

ALL Progen can use certain level 9 Impact Debuffers.

 

ALL Terran can use certain level 9 Explosive Debuffers.

 

only 1 out of 3 Jenquai classes can use level 9 Energy Debuffers ( the trader class at that ....basically the builders forget combat at any high level)

 

 

How anyone except those personally biased to play certain races can argue that is balanced is beyond me. I am sure someone will say "Well Jenquai get CC  doh".

 

Ahh what is double of 0 damage?  Hmmmm ................

 

 

How about the DEVs go balance the obvious GLARING imbalance about damage types and leave the other balancing issues alone until THAT is solved!!!

Edited by Gunsmith Dan
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