c4pta1ntr1ps Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 (edited) Are the tengu bosses supposed to be able to see cloak? I sure hope not because it makes it rather hard to kill them now :( JDs arent meant to take that kind of damage! lol Edited January 16, 2013 by Captain Trips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karu [WDL] Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 I sure hope not because it makes it rather hard to kill them now :( JDs arent meant to take that kind of damage! lol you complaining that bosses are hard to kill when solo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phorlaug[IS] Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 LMAO, Hello ! It must of been a Nice wake up for for JDs that use to solo Bosses wasn't it. I'm not saying thats the case here. But thats the way it should be, not the way the some JDs would like it but.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4pta1ntr1ps Posted January 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 just asking... :) I can deal with it if its intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 What are we talking about here by Tengu bosses? Do you mean every single named Tengu in Cooper can see cloaked? If so I'd tend to think that was excessive, but if you're talking about the Tengu bosses from the raids, then it makes sense. I'd imagine that a well equipped or well played PW or TW should be able to solo say Terrus the Skinner, if they can keep the other fish off of them, I don't think it should be unreasonable for a JW to do the same provided he can avoid the other fish. How widespread is this? If nearly all named mobs, can see cloaked, then it's a pretty big nerf to the Jenquai race, who gets cloak to make up for both weak shields & short range weapons. Jenquai can forget about soloing things like Raman the Polisher (CL46) if it's that widespread, though Terrans & Progen would still be able to. If it's just a few mobs around the galaxy, and some raid bosses, then it's pretty reasonable. Beyond that, then we need a counter to scan & see-cloaked, that's going to be effective at least most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 If by Tengu bosses, you mean the mobs that are either in one of these two categories: A) in a Raid or B) above CL level 50 Then, yes, most likely. You're not supposed to be able to solo them without some really good tactics and gear. and above say 54-55 not at all because at this point the challenge of the mob exceeds a lot of your normal bonuses. Now to stop the questions before they come in: Will I tell you which ones? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Do they really need to see cloak to not be soloable? Better deflects, increased speed, harder hitting weapons, tougher shields, skills like Menace, Gravity Link, Rally, linked aggression, along with debuffs like slow weapons, shield drain, reactor drain, debuffs to deflects for their chosen weapons, increase signature (more mobs see you to attack), etc. can make CL51+ mobs tougher in ways that do so for all 3 races. Don't forget that some of the orefields are guarded by Tengu, assuming those fields are still around. A JE may well be there not to fight, but to mine. He's interested in cloaking to get to the asteroids, rather than fighting the guardians, since if he's fighting he's not mining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stanig[IS] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 The whole issue with "see cloak" as far as that goes Terrell, not to mince words or anything... is that a skilled player with the right equipment can solo absolutely anything that cannot see through cloak. Back in ST4/Beta skilled JD's were even soloing Raids. The whole root issue is really with how the cloak skill applies, it is still possible to bug it and get the skill to apply nearly instantly. Due to the other part of the issue (missiles and projectiles used by mobs having that delayed hit to account for the travel distance), a quick jenny will be recloaked before that damage arrives (the 0 Damage bug) The combination of those two factors (unintended ability to recloak instantly, and take no damage from ranged weapons because of it) necessitated the change to some mobs/bosses being able to just see right through it, to prevent "smart" players that know how to constantly reproduce this unintended behavior, from soloing group intended content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Is that particular bug fixable? I don't think anyone should be soloing raids, and I don't have a problem with some bosses in the fishbowl, Tada-O gate raid, or other major raids, seeing cloak (figure out which mob has scan 5+ type of thing). If anything I do think that the raids themselves shouldn't be doable without multiple groups, involving all 9 classes, especially the 3 new classes. Mini raids some seeing cloaked is reasonable. If nearly every underboss can see cloaked, then IMO, it goes too far. I would define underbosses as named mobs not part of any particular raid or mini-raid. What I'm concerned about is it going too far in the other direction, where the Jenquai's key skill becomes next to useless. I'm reminded of early ST3 where the problem was exactly the opposite. Anything over your CL automatically saw cloaked, which made the (then) mission to learn the skill on a JW an exercise in masochism (OL10 having to recon the evil mushroom guarded by CL15 plants) and was frustrating to JEs mining, since JE's combat level tends to lag behind trade and explore and there will always be some guardians over CL50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir[IS] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Do they really need to see cloak to not be soloable? Better deflects, increased speed, harder hitting weapons, tougher shields, skills like Menace, Gravity Link, Rally, linked aggression, along with debuffs like slow weapons, shield drain, reactor drain, debuffs to deflects for their chosen weapons, increase signature (more mobs see you to attack), etc. can make CL51+ mobs tougher in ways that do so for all 3 races. Don't forget that some of the orefields are guarded by Tengu, assuming those fields are still around. A JE may well be there not to fight, but to mine. He's interested in cloaking to get to the asteroids, rather than fighting the guardians, since if he's fighting he's not mining. Yes but...what about non cloak-able players? I guess we just have to fight the mobs off while the cloaked players come in and mine? Seems one sided to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Yes but...what about non cloak-able players? I guess we just have to fight the mobs off while the cloaked players come in and mine? Seems one sided to me... JEs have to decloak to prospect, cloak is to get into position to do so. Scouts get a fourth weapon, longer ranged weapons, and more speed, they also get Negotiate to make more profit on what they mine, can refine for less money, can repair their own hulls if they take hull damage, and can carry more ore in their larger cargo holds. Sentinels get power down, Menace, L9 shields, Gravity Link, L5 critical targeting, a 4th weapon, longer weapon range than the JE, and can win fights quicker than the other 2 explorers. Seems fair to me, since each explorer gets an advantage of some sort over the other two, so why should JE be the only one who has his advantage effectively negated, for mining high level ores? Why have 3 explorers, instead of just one, if there aren't to be things that distinguish the 3 explorers from one another? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimir[IS] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 JEs have to decloak to prospect, cloak is to get into position to do so. Scouts get a fourth weapon, longer ranged weapons, and more speed, they also get Negotiate to make more profit on what they mine, can refine for less money, can repair their own hulls if they take hull damage, and can carry more ore in their larger cargo holds. Sentinels get power down, Menace, L9 shields, Gravity Link, L5 critical targeting, a 4th weapon, longer weapon range than the JE, and can win fights quicker than the other 2 explorers. Seems fair to me, since each explorer gets an advantage of some sort over the other two, so why should JE be the only one who has his advantage effectively negated, for mining high level ores? Why have 3 explorers, instead of just one, if there aren't to be things that distinguish the 3 explorers from one another? Good answer... seems fair to me too now :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pritcher[IS] Posted January 23, 2013 Report Share Posted January 23, 2013 Good answer... seems fair to me too now :) +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4pta1ntr1ps Posted February 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 I was talking about every named tengu in cooper seeing cloak. as well as a slew of otehr bosses (rd base, chavez in venus, paramis, 66 rd in ap).... need i go on? This is more than a little excesive, you have completely defeated the purpose of cloak (and if you are concerned about JDs soloing raids just make raid bosses see cloak...not EVERYTHING) Please do something about this.... JD was my favorite class even in live 10 years ago, but with cloak being nearly useless now i might as well make a pw... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naso Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 yea i know im the jd everyone hates :P anyway i will say live most BOSS mobs not RAID mobs were soloable on a je yea je usen beams and coma . the bosses in cooper were nothing . i mean i guess with the skill i devolped from lve and even in the emu it was ez for me , however when it came to raid mobs they were NOT soloable cause of active shield recharge even taking dmg there shield actively recharged therefore needing a certain dps to take them down in the first place but you could kite on a je backwards the dt raid mobs while they were comad thus a real skilled group could take them with no deaths maybe no heals never got that far as i did that the last few weeks of live and i remeber it clear as a sunny day . i wouldnt mention something like this if i wasnt compkleately sure otherwise id say im not sure but maybe but that is not the case. but hey keep making silly resists and huge shields and dmg , cause ill always find a way till its just way to overbearing for even large groups . i have no problem with things bein hard at all . but to make reg mobs stupid hard is kinda silly i dont even mind the low drop rates its awsome ksing will come back . it already has . keep up the work on the raids and take that advise and your ai will becomes ezier than making 1 shot deaths .. and this targeting of classes i find to be racist and that was looked down upon and also bannable durring live and im talkin jenq progen racisim not rl racisim thats obviouly not tolerated. ps je still need nav 7 working the way it was always intended to nerf it to make another class more useful is insane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyp [LDEV] Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 We are already investigating a better way to handle this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrell [BT] Posted February 5, 2013 Report Share Posted February 5, 2013 Good point Captain Trips. If it's too easy people will get bored, but if you make it impossible, people will say "to hell with it". Either way there will be fewer players, and fewer players eventually means fewer donations, which means that a beloved game will suffer another death. There needs to be some middle ground here. I remember doing a mission in Neptune, where at the end you were supposed to face a Chavez that was fairly low level since those missions are meant for OL25-OL50ish players, and the Chavez you had to kill also saw cloaked. I shouldn't have to try and tank with a JT, I should be able to fight a mob of that low level, using the normal stealth tactics that a Jenquai of appropriate level would use. I wouldn't want to have to face it with a JE without the ability to recharge my shields, and without my best ability, to disappear. Forced grouping, will make the game no fun for those times when players will want to play solo. There should be viable options for solo play at all levels, and have some encounters that are for groups (like raids, or mini-raids). It should be possible for regular mobs to be taken down by players of any class, if they are fighting similar to their level, equipped properly, and know what they're doing. Warriors should be fairly quick to make mobs drop, while supporters, particularly the classes without critical targeting, should need to take more care, and more time to accomplish the same. Most underbosses, (named mobs not part of raids) IMO should be solo able, for a skilled player with the correct equipment, though they should be tougher than unnamed mobs of the same level. Now I can see mobs in the 55+ range usually requiring groups, with few exceptions, but those mobs shouldn't be orefield guardians either. (all orefield guardians should be solo able or avoidable by a well played explorer class, unless you implement "mining raids", or something of that nature) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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