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Dragonsmurf

Controller Raid

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Most of the "raiders" in VGE do it for the group activity and the action. Not for the phat lewtz! There have been numerous time that Bell has given the loot away in market because none of the raiders needed it.

Making the raids harder and requiring multiple groups to complete would be awesome! So long as the server can handle it that is. Already if we do a joint raid and 3-4 groups in the same area as multiple mobs the lag is horrendous, whether it is caused by the server or a network bottleneck dunno.

Whether or not they are made activatable is up to the Devs. Maybe have the spawn times closer together and the chance of uber gear dropping lessened, to prevent flooding of ubers? There has to be a happy medium we could all agree to so folks don't feel excluded. :)
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Has anyone ever tried to band together as the smaller groups and take on the 'big guys' and smash their nose in the nearest poop pile like a bad puppy when/if they are dominating a spawn? This is what we did in the live game when something was needed. Sometimes we won out and they gave in, sometimes we didn't.

Kyp,
It's less about competing groups on raid and more about knowledge or (intel) if you will. The larger guilds have the intel, the small don't. The larger knows from its cabal when the last raid spawned, and that the next will be 24 hr +/- for the next in the cabal to do it. The larger guild(s) have the alt. boxer toon to camp the spawn or another member of the guild to do so, to alert the rest of the cabal. The larger guild will have a larger population base to organize from to assemble and do the raid, most often before the smaller raid even knows the raid has even spawned.

The smaller guild COULD camp as the larger does and find out the spawn time (they have far fewer numbers to stand about or multiboxed in reality), they COULD have a group standing in the wings just to take it on (not likely to have raid group standing around twiddling thumbs just for that to happen really), however they in all this are acting at a disadvantage: intel, the cabal knows when it was last killed, they know not to start looking for the next 12 hrs. they know that after that 12 hrs. to start looking and as it approachs 24hr mark is ever more likely and will definitely be within the 12-36 hr mark. The small guild without that intel have to camp that full 36 hr. and with their smaller population thats not likely.

After all those handycaps in intel, population and possibly lesser geared group, if they overcome all that they MIGHT get to compete for the raid against a larger guild and TRY to do 51%, but really....how likely is that?

As to the uber loot issue, most are after the uniques, how can they flood the market? You either have one or you don't and you had to loot it personally. The point being made is that there will always be the quality hounds, if they have a 100% widget they aren't happy enough with that and will take up a raid spots repeatedly (leaving those other guilds out of even getting a 85%) so they can loot a 120%.

Even if you are talking about tradeable ubers, how would you be flooding the market? Once again, they are having to gather the resources to activate the raid, in essence its got a new self timer, the time it takes to gather the resources in quantity enough to get the key. So a activated raid spawns every 12-36 hr. Will it take 12-36 hr. for the same group of players to gather resources, I would bet it would take longer, and would have a side benefit in fact.

Side benefit: access to players that might not ordinarily get raid group, raid groups are geared for just that--raiding, they may never mine a single thing, or camp a single spawn other than the raid, never build a single thing etc. and with a activated raid scheme they still wouldn't have to do so if they weren't inclined to. But with a key method, resources will have to be gathered, the person who goes to all the trouble to do so can now ask to be included in the raid as condition of his key use. This gets them included into a group they may never ordinarily get to experience, AND have the chance at loot that will enable them to start a career in raiding and get more invites.

How oftern do some classes get included and rather get discarded in favor of another? (think JS..why take them when there is a TT or a PP, think PS..why take them when there is a JE or PW/PP to cover skills, think TS..when the skills can be covered by TT and JE etc.) with key in hand they can say "o.k. my turn! let me in" Edited by Mattsacre
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Moving to an activated raid only shifts the problem. In order to keep an activated raid to roughly the equivalent of a once a day activation, thus keeping items rare, it would require us to make some portion of the activation sequence significantly challenging. This may be a component that only drops very rarely - which then gets camped and again causes strife.

Fish Bowl is already too common and should be adjusted. Not every toon should have a Devastating Gaze, Smiter, or Fury. These are intended to be rare, no as common as they are. It should not be the work of an hour or two to collect the comps needed to activate these raids. it should be the product of days of effort with a corresponding reward. The same is the case, though to a somewhat lesser degree, for the Oni/OCD activated raid.

If GoBB or Controller were to become activated then it would need to be in a way that maintains the rarity and challenge but provides a more level playing field for large and small guilds. I cannot see a solution that fits both sides of that equation but would be happy to hear of one.

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2 words: world drops

A item that drops from mobs throughout the universe like feather did live. There was no one RD mob that dropped the feather, they all had a chance of dropping it, the higher the lvl of RD the greater the odds, but even high lvl had low drop rate.

Same with the oni one, a rare drop was needed to manufacture the device, the higher lvl oni had better drop rates.

With a world drop, no one spawn point of mobs can be camped so bad that others are excluded, like herbal remedy for heal the maw, all the chavez dropped them, some in higher quantity than others true, but if one spot was camped by farmers, there were plenty of other spots of chavez to kill.

So say troller needed a world drop from spore mothers...there was spore mothers in VT,VG,GO,Griss sector, Griss planet and Rag and I think Freya. Thats 7 spots to farm to try and get a rare drop, I seriously doubt all 7 spots would all be camped at the same time by persons seeking the drop. This would spread out farmers and prevent one guild from monopolizing items for content over another.

Uber loot a problem? Perticipation timer, did the raid this week already? So sorry..see you next week, better luck on the roll next time. Want to increase your odds of a uber loot next week? Get off your ass and farm the key, He who holds the key sets the raid peramiters. Want to increase your odds of key item drop? Get your guild off its posterior and farm for it...a bigger guild with more members? good your odds are increased with more farmers...but you know what? You didn't step on the toes of the small guild that would like to enjoy stuff too...sweet!

Cool this week our guild of 60 members worked real hard and farmed 4 key items, we can do the raid 4 times! O wait guild leader and all its officers did it this week already...well thats nice, for a change someone else can do it...well 30 members are going to a convention this week and can't log on...well what do you think..should we save them until next week when they are on...or auction a couple off, our guild coffers are a little low..should we see what we can get and fill them?

Like to do jobs when your friends aren't on..thats o.k.....OMG! look at that! My job mob dropped a rare item! Hey market whats a spore mother fractial eye? REALLY? You will pay me 1m for that..sweet! Oh wait someone offered to give me 1m AND all new Weapons set built, maybe I should open a auction...anyone know how to do that? Would you show me how? BTW my other toons name is NoobiBob2 Whats yours? Look at that..someone sent me a guild invite..cool I'm meeting new friends left and right AND they are showing me the ropes of this game...Oh look! someone else has offerd me 1m, new weapons, AND a raid invite...this game is awesome..and everyone seems so nice..I think I've found my new MMO for life. Edited by Mattsacre
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I was in one the smaller major guilds on andro.
I remember this BS.
Thats what it is, BS. "me big guild me tell you when you can has stuff"
Then we did it by ourselves, playing their way on our little time, having all of us basically kowtow to another guilds leadership.
Screw that, PM me in game and put together a party, lets smash some KSing out and disrupt the monopoly.
I doesnt even afraid. Nearly 10 years of gaming under my belt now, and a crapload of PvP griefing taught me the benefits of bringing the little guy together.

Remember most of the people in these big bulky guilds are the same 5-10 people with like 100 toons between them, keeping all the good crap for themselves and their 23435345345 accounts, farming the system, while the other 100 individuals with 400+ toons between us sit and cry about it. Oh and for the record - LOL @ guild tags. Im still OC to the core, we just havent made the guild yet. Band it up. You dont have to have static under your toons name to be able to cooperate with a static member. You dont have to be in Ballistic Mystix to play with me either.

Im down to do some competition, u scared? Heck as long as FB or troller hasnt changed since live, im still the old OC raid leader so I know how they are done. Forget tactics, I know em. Give me some bodies, and a time. We got dis.

Contact in game. Edited by Ryle
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Sidenote: the controller spawns every day?

LOLLLLLL

Did we forget it was like A TWO WEEK TIMER on live? Really guys...

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My 2 cents :)
After jumping from post to post I've notice and it was my idea before someone else shared it as a conclusion to this raid agreement which i knew nothing about cause i've been working lately and because of the fact that i'm part of VGE and been to these raids numerous of times. The bosses were a challenge when 1-3 players w/o end game gear was around. Now that we have yet to have a p-wipe the other guidls catch up and VGE grew even more in strength and numbers over short time, but now we have 6-12 players in a full group and all of end-game gear which could pop a boss in less then 30min maybe even 10min when they narrow the minons down. The problem is not spwan timing, the problem is the weak shield and hull hit points on these bossess (equals how long a raid lasts) + more end game gear being spread around to other players not just alt toons so fast that it's been helping everyone else catch up in the raid games as i call it. :)

If the devs would increase the hit points on the controller or even it's minons and or increase their resistence to where there on the same lvl as those fishes in the fb then the challenge is back because not even a group of 6-12 with end game gear can or should take it down or it's minons down (in 30mins or less) without having multi groups involved shooting/healing/jumping/ and possible running at the same time. You want more players to be invited to a raid then the raid most overwhelm who ever is in control of it and their fleet or fleets. To whoever can mutlibox a boss i give you props but thats not sports man like of you to do so in my oppinon.

The devs can deny that it would fix the problem but spwan timing alone is not one of them for the raid conflicts. Theres barely any risk involved now when you have a group thats got all end game gear on and when engaged can wipe out a raid with 1-2 groups. You certiantly should not be able to do that now in the FB why not at the controller or bbg raid? It would take devs Beefing up the bosses and it's minions to level out the groups dps and high gear. Would that not balance it out? If the raid agreement is broken that would only help build compitetion, which should bring the best out of any guild in enb periode. I'm looking at this idea as competition not favortism it maybe a lil chaotic but that maybe part of any battle in a game with multi players. Granted if pvp was implimented you would see both guilds if not builders/static and VGE all go at it just for the chance to raid an end game boss. lol I believe pvp is the only thing holding back the players feelings from fully expressing their argession or ambition in this game. :)
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Here is an idea : disband the guilds in the EMU. Really we are supposed to be stress testing the server and content testing. Just in my opinion, I have always thought that Guilds in the EMU were a bit pre-mature, although the guild function itself needed to be tested as well, perhaps that portion of testing is sufficient enough for now. If the guilds were disbanded, most of us would get back to why we were invited to play in the first place ... to test. Those raids could still happen and would involve everyone that is capable of being in a raid and would probably inject a bit of excitement to those players that had not been able to participate. It is human nature to get competitive and territorial. But those qualities belong in "live" play, not on a test server. And ingame, I do belong to a large guild.
[i][b]GALI[/b][/i]

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TBH, nearly all the content has been tested and retested. What new stuff comes out, people do. Personally I am here to play the game as best as it can be played, and test as I go.

Just like the devs dont get paid for making it, I dont get any benefit from arduous retesting of content thats been worked on forever. What bugs or issues I do find, I bring up. (such as a combat lag report i got from PLAYING THE GAME i submitted to tienbau yesterday)

Turning this into a test retest boredom grind isnt going to solve anything, that whole idea if implemented would just make people leave.

There arent enough people that you can just take the "so leave then, we dont need you" line either. We barely seem to make donations per month as it is, theres very few regular players on a daily or weekly basis.

We can only test new stuff as it comes, what do we do when theres no new releases? Sit and twiddle our thumbs waiting for the next patch? I dont even see a list anywhere of "what we need data on, go to X and do Y for an hour, tell us what happens". Notice when Tienbau [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6525-lag/unread/"]asked for Lag feedback [/url]how many people went and did it? Like 10 people came out and reported in. What do we do in the meantime though, with no clear cut testing instructions.... we group/guild up, form alliances, friendships, running buddies, etc, and play what we have.

NO to tearing the community to shreds by destroying all guilds, thats using a chainsaw on a splinter. Edited by Ryle

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See orga2, you point out the very problem with your "solution"

6-12 players with end game raid gear.....if they have the gear why are they running the raid again? Maybe they have a 105% end gear and can't stand that fact and just HAVE to have 120%, so they run the raid again and again to get it, in so doing they take the raid from those that DON"T have end game gear, or have EVER run the raid.

So make the bosses harder you say....o.k.....why? Have you looked at the server population of late? Yes in live it took 6-8 combat groups in a raid to drop the boss....6x6=36 -8x6=48, you would need 36-48 players on that was of sufficient lvl, and good enough gear to survive a raid, and want to do the raid on to do that.....you seen that many on with the experience/gear any time recently?

Make the bosses harder...ok, because of the population problem what else would that do...just make it "challenging" for the current lot that is "monopolizing" raid at present, they are currently bored enough and have the 120% gear that they might actually let someone else play "their" raid for a change.

PvP.....thats why people can't get in a raid? REALLY? come on..you link lack of pvp to raiding flaws? Thats not comparing apples and oranges..at least they are both fruits, thats comparing apples and ferric oxide. PvP live was soccer/ (futball for you nutty europeans:)) it also was a game, you COULD ignore the game and just go for gankfest, but really, the differing toons don't hold up to that becuase of skill sets etc. and if they wasted time trying to "balance" them for pvp...well that would just be moronic, and would defeat the whole intent of EnBEMU.
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[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1329058726' post='53572']
Be careful what you ask for here guys because we are going to have to find a way to keep the so called 'uber items' from flooding gameplay. They aren't supposed to be there in majority regardless of the desire to have them. If we make them activatable we're going to have to set long timers on those raids for your individual account to prevent you from spamming them and thereby keep the items from becoming as common as grains of sand.
[/quote]

Personally I like that Idea Kyp...That would not bother me a bit as there has to be a balence. The guilds that can already take on these raids are already on a timer so to say (minus fishbowl) and by making it a per account timer also could help out the who gets to go this time in the larger guilds and even allow more of thier members to participate in the raids instead of just the top elites of the guild. Plus make the items needed non trade and unique (aka a npc puts the device together from items) that way people can't stock pile devices like some do now for the fb device that would cut down on the farming alot in itself.

When I played Rift and got to the top end raids you could only do that raid once every 24 hours and it worked just fine, just that here there needs to be a difference in the timers depending on how uber the loot is. The thing is that the we get it this day factor is shutting out smaller guilds that want to try and good luck getting into the rotation as my guild had to force our way into it.

Also just becuase a guild is larger does not mean that only they should have access to top level content.

As for PvP bah if you want it go to another game, I hate pvp servers and the people who love greifing lower levels. Even though we have a smaller community there are always those who would still sit on low level sectors 1 shotting new players just for fun/spite.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Wah I want to cry (NOT!!!) -2 on my post.. EnB was never about PVP and PvP is not a fix for issues (and if implimented I fear it will become Eve, with the big guilds owning sectors and if thats what you want get over it and go play Eve and get dominated by the true eliteist), if you want to play a pvp game to bad this game was never about PvP (other than arenas), it was about the community and fun for me and for many others. or if you think your guild should be the only ones allowed for top end content get over it, as your guild will never own anything period and could be reported for TOS violations then get a perma ban if so deemed by the DEVS and GMs by acting like *&^s.

As for my comment on troller rotation my guild talked to many leaders on getting into the rotation, but were totally ignored so we went FFA and killed it as often as we could and the big three decided to eventually grant us a spot so we were not cutting them out. If they had let us in we would have been respectful to the rotation, but our requests were totally ignorined was why we were forced to use a show of force but this happened shortly after I was getting burnt out and playing less. If you want to whine blame your leaders as we tried to be respectful and just wanted our spot, but were shunned so we went FFA on it till your leaders decided to let us in.


I am not saying things for my personal benifit as I have not played for a few weeks but I try to think of ways to improve the overall experience for all rather than cater to the eliteist.

And yes those that have to have a 120% item are an issue as they are causing more negative effect than they think they are, I can understand wanting to replace a 85% item for a 100+ but gaining very little for the additional 105-120% is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

I am now playing DCUO (for the most part) on a free account and there are no bad% looted and items can be repaired to 100% at max when damaged in combat, but all looted are 100% to begin with. For the most part these are only instanced item drops equivalant to FB as it has been with numerous other games to date. Edited by shadowxsx
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Read post #27 JonesPW.
Please take the time to read it all.
I'm not just in your words creating "all this bullshite drama that is going on this fourm is enough Mattsacre mainly, also anyother person "sturring the pot" tring to get more shite sturred up."

I'm attempting to provide possible solutions to a perceived problem, if you don't find it a problem, fine then its not a problem for you and thats good.

But could it be possible that your one of those guys in one of those guilds that is getting access that others aren't? To YOU it wouldn't seem a problem, since you would have access, and wouldn't want anything to change that. I don't have personal knowledge of your level of access, I'm just postulating.

I personally don't think my solutions are undoable, nor game breaking, nor limiting access to the current crop of raiders, nor have any negative impact to them. I find my solutions rather in fact to have a enhancing effect a win-win.

Please by all means after reading #27 if you find that my reading of the problem and possible solutions to it isn't to your liking, then by all means post your counter solutions, as have others, and my response to them in later posts.

It's called civilized discourse.
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I really dont like the "pvpers get out" attitude ive seen thrown in the thread. I do both styles of gameplay but I thrive on PvP the most.

Yeah going off topic perhaps but I am a bit annoyed at how there is still all this rage over additional potential PvP content in its own sectors newbs cant even get into... etc... Its not like a PvP community could impede on a PvE community if its set up right (flag only entry sectors, safe bases, no PvE content in the PvP sectors that is not directly corrollated to PvP gear, etc)
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The largest problem that I see is the "perceived" denial of access to content. This keeps coming up over and over, and it's just not true!

Get a group, go there, and do it. Simple really.

Like Kyp said, "Has anyone ever tried to band together as the smaller groups and take on the 'big guys' and smash their nose in the nearest poop pile like a bad puppy when/if they are dominating a spawn? This is what we did in the live game when something was needed. Sometimes we won out and they gave in, sometimes we didn't."

Like I said before, we have even helped other guilds not capable of completing these raids, and they got the loot and learn the tactics to do them successfully. If we were denying content this would never have happened.

VGE finds out if GoBB is up just like everyone else, we fly out there and look. If we were lucky enough to have taken him down last time, sure, we have a better idea of when, but it's still a coin toss, just gotta do the legwork.

If you are too lazy to put in the time and effort, then yeah, you will not get in on raid level content, it's always been that way, even back in live. :)
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On that note, I ask every time im on if theres a raid happenin or about to in market/general/new players
ive never once got an invite to go.

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[size=5][b]all i feel this game needs is alittle co-op playing not just with your guilds but Other guilds banding together to take on what bigger guilds can perfect example (and i know i'm gunna get slammed for this) Adventure quest worlds an MMO i played before i got into the emulator there are no guilds (atleast thats true from when i played) so if you needed help on somthing all ya had to do was say in a chat channel "hey. can i have some help with killing this boss?" and generally there would be people replying saying Yes, or Of course. whats diffrent about that MMORPG and this MMORPG? Missles and flashlights compared to swords and magic? why can't 2 little guilds form together and take down BBG i've seen it done before i've done it before my self. Mattsacre i do apolagise about my actings last night. i went off half-cocked and didn't read everything and only saw and listened without findings my self but somtimes you do sturr things up and add to the drama but not all the time[/b][/size]. [size=5][b]Also to others i posted about last night you have my sincer apolgies and that post will be deleated as soon as this one goes up.[/b][/size]

[size=5][b]Jones[/b][/size]

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[i]the way i see it, all the schedule does is prevent one guild from dominating the raid spawns. with monday being vbg's day, it prevents any1 in that guild from taking the controller and bbg on tues,wed,thurs. Thus allowing others access. And the same goes for builders on tuesday and phoenix on wed. and so on. Without the schedule, any and all guilds would camp the spawns daily and access would be further limited to the larger guilds who already have the gear. I am not saying that the arrangement is perfect, but the alternatives are imo, even less appealing. [/i]

[i]I took some time off after the last wipe. One thing that i noticed when i came back was how the E & B community is surprisingly civil in these matters and i was happy to see ppl getting along as nicely as they are. I am very happy to be discussing something like this (which will always stir up controversy), rather than reminescing about how it was cool that there were raids in live and wondering when the devs were going to allow us to do them. We have certainly come a long ways from barely being able to navigate and maybe be able to move from sector to sector. I am very excited to see what the future holds for us and this game. We still have dt and ardus and all the vrix stuff to try out. Maybe when further content gets added, things wont be so crowded. Until then, i think we all want the same thing. This game to stay online and healthy. thanks for all the fun thus far and im looking forward to new raids to fight over. - wicker[/i]
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[quote name='Klyde' timestamp='1329587687' post='53964']
The largest problem that I see is the "perceived" denial of access to content. This keeps coming up over and over, and it's just not true!

Get a group, go there, and do it. Simple really.

Like Kyp said, "Has anyone ever tried to band together as the smaller groups and take on the 'big guys' and smash their nose in the nearest poop pile like a bad puppy when/if they are dominating a spawn? This is what we did in the live game when something was needed. Sometimes we won out and they gave in, sometimes we didn't."

Like I said before, we have even helped other guilds not capable of completing these raids, and they got the loot and learn the tactics to do them successfully. If we were denying content this would never have happened.

VGE finds out if GoBB is up just like everyone else, we fly out there and look. If we were lucky enough to have taken him down last time, sure, we have a better idea of when, but it's still a coin toss, just gotta do the legwork.

If you are too lazy to put in the time and effort, then yeah, you will not get in on raid level content, it's always been that way, even back in live. :)
[/quote]

So in order:
1.Your perception isn't the same as others perception, if you can't see the problem after its been pointed out repeatedly you are NEVER going to see it, by all means just step over that homeless man in the gutter...he don't exist if you don't see him,rrrright, nope don't see any homeless, there must not be a homeless problem.

2.Have gotten groups before, have attempted it, and have had biggies swoop in and KS it after we started on it, My toon is geared out, the others weren't, was lending a hand to others, there was no mistaking that we was on the raids and attempting it when the KSers swoop in and robbed it. Yes was simple...simply rude any annoying.

3.Yes others have banded together and took on the big guys, well actually they took on us, like in #2, because they had an "agreement" with other guilds they felt all semblence of curtiousness and fairplay was out the window, since per their "agreement" they "owned" it that day.

4.Nice you were helping other guilds do it, thats truely commendable and its good they learned in the process, did you by any chance have a "agreement" to help other smaller guilds on a rotational basis, were do smaller guilds/persons apply to get in that rotation, is it published? If it is, how long is the list? 2 yrs. waiting list?

5.As per my earlier posts, VGE and others have inside info over other groups, they know when EXACTLY it spawned last, and know they need not waste any time looking within the following 12 hrs. after the 12 hrs they know the window will be within the next 24 hr. weighted more towards next 12 hr. To even have a shot at it the other smaller guild would need to camp the full 36 hr. to get that info, fewer member means they won't have the resources to do so, unlike larger guilds.

6.I'm clearly not to lazy to do the legwork for something I want, with my toon count/alt and total levels achieved and recipes and gear etc. etc. it should be evident I put in "legwork", and have been in a few raids, it's the OTHERS that I know don't EVER get in and the KSers when they attempt to do so that has me peeve, when I witness injustice it grates my nerves and I attempt to do my part to correct it.

Now with all that, please, tell me and others in a cogent manner, why my proposed changes are so bad:
1. The current raids won't be denighed their current level of access.
2. Those that are currently denighed will get a improved chance of experiencing it.
3. There will be no flooding of gear to market.
4. The changes will actually encourage greater player interaction and will aid in new player learning curve.
5. The ONLY negative impact (and I don't see anyone cogently arguing it's a negative unless they are liars) is that it will hold current raids to a time frame to run the raid.

If they aren't lying and in reality monopolizing the raid, running it more than their "agreed" once a week, how would a once a week cool down negatively impact them, they are already doing it only once a week right?...right? 8)

The only arguements I have seen yet to my proposal boil down to mostly 2 catagories:
1. There isn't a problem, don't need a fix.
2. I like it the way it is, even if others don't get in, at least I do so to bad so sad for them.

Both of those are denighing that perhaps while THEY don't have a problem..OTHERS do, just because you don't see something don't mean it doesn't exist, I can't see a DNA strand with my naked eye, but I wouldn't be stupid enough to try and claim DNA doesn't exist.
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[quote name='Mattsacre' timestamp='1329640960' post='54013']
So in order:
1.Your perception isn't the same as others perception, if you can't see the problem after its been pointed out repeatedly you are NEVER going to see it, by all means just step over that homeless man in the gutter...he don't exist if you don't see him,rrrright, nope don't see any homeless, there must not be a homeless problem.
[/quote]

Ok. dude with that perception of the homeless thats just it. may i ask what guild your in sir and may i ask if you've ever been in the situation of SStanding alone? Fending for your self? i have and lemme tell you dude it sucks now and back in live man. from my earlier post i've been told "Good Job Jones, Man why'd you delete that post you hit it right on the head man." and after your 2nd post dude i think they were right so. my rant to thoes who couldent see it was basicly. Why are the smaller guilds bitching about us doing the only thing we have left in this game. i mean because of this post 3 of my best friends in the guild have completely quit raiding. 1 being my guild leader because they're tired of the drama. and in all honesty i am to. to restate my earlier post if the little guilds have an issue with the pact between the guilds who can do BBG we will work around it but instead of comming here to bitch where this is where people come to have there problems solved try asking for an officer in any of the guilds and we'll do our best to get you in the pact IF and only IF you can raid BBG and Controller that is not me being a complete dick but that is what Phenoix. CRI Static Builders and VGE had to agree on. and my final thing to say is this pact is only between 5 guilds in the whole server and the pact rules clearly state "On a certen Guilds night Example Monday Voncorp Galactic Empire will be alloud to raid GoBB and Controller WITHOUT interference from the other 4 guild of this pact." the other *****(4)***** guilds of this pact. that means if some guild other then CRI Phenoix Static and Builders want to try and raid BBG on monday its ok THE SAME Applys to Tuesday, Wensday, Thrusday and Friday and Saturday and Sunday are free-for-all days so if you want to get into the pact contact a(n) officer form any of the guilds show them that your guild can kill BBG and Troller and well put you in the pact now the main purpose of this pact is to dissolve the server drama aginst raids and most likely we'll split up the raids on diffrent days then the skuttle bug scooter or the boggy cpt come in from DT and sence VGE has BBG on mondays we'll prolly either have scooter on tuesdays or wensdays now like i stated and i'm going to restate in a diffrent color [b][u][color=#ff0000]this will NOT ban people outside of the pact to the ability to kill the Ghost of blackbeard, The Controller raid mobs and boss, Skuttle bug scooter and the Boggy Cpt (when they come in) period end of story[/color][/u][/b]. if you have any questions PM me ingame or send me a message over the fourms.

Jones
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I am just getting back into the game so I apologise if I misunderstand anything

I played WoW for a number of years. What put me off of doing the 25 man content was the guilds capable of doing it demanded you play like 5 nights per week. Of course it was different in that all raids were instanced. Do the guilds currently in rotation tend to have minimum playing requirements? It is possible to play well without playing excessively. I eventually found a 10 man strict guild and playing 2 nights per week we managed to kill Agalon in Ulduar as well as doing the meta-achievement for hard modes, placing world 8th in 10 man strict at the time.

I know that 10 man strict did not have the competition levels of 25 man and was not an official thing. My point is that as a small guild we did difficult end game content but at a pace which fitted with real world commitments. What I hope a community project of Earth and Beyond would be able to accomplish is a mechanism for players with less weekly time to see all content and have access to all items, albeit at a slower rate proportional to their play time.

Another idea . . . what if the following or some combination was done (I know some of it may exist already):[list=1]
[*]Make all raids triggered by items dropping rarely but randomly from a large section of enemies. Adjust this to the required item rarity based on population. Large guilds still get more loot, small guilds get the opportunity for some. Individual enemies are not excessively camped.
[*]Restrict the raid frequency only by items dropped and perhaps by individual player cooldown. Nobody can own a spawn time, nobody can farm it.
[*]Reduce the drop rate of items in a raid based on the player population. The content can be done by many people without making rare items common, An increase in server population then does not make the situation worse.
[*]If possible grant exclusive loot rights to the player who activated the event. Large guilds or groups cannot steal a kill, effectively returning to the ownership issue. Alternatively this could be moderator, put in the TOS and with punitive measures.
[/list]
I am not saying this is the set in stone way it should be done, I am just trying to suggest some form of direction things could go to allow large guilds to do the encounters as often as they can whilst still allowing smaller guilds to experience all content albeit at a slower pace. This is all done whilst granting players a chance to obtain rare loot based directly on the time invested (given equal group skill). Everyone is able to invest time, everyone is able to learn the encounter without annoying people who can rip through it. Players are limited by their own time investment, not a "lack of real life" arms race.

As I said, I know the minimum time limit may not be so much of an issue but a solution of this intent could solve a lot of other problems as well.
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See? Ninjabadger touched on some of the same things I was saying, he came at ir the other way it looks, the time investment thing I didn't consider, some peeps don't play everyday or 5 days straight etc.

There is the guilds minimum requirement thing I didn't consider, some raid guilds live, took all comers others wanted a certain level before peeps could join etc. Most the guilds had a home page and with a little search they would (most of them) tell you somewere around the mission statement, if not actually in the mission statement what membership required.

* JonesPW, wall of text, but I'll try to sift through it anyway :)
1.What about the sarcasm of not seeing hoemless offended you so much? I have been homeless, it sucked, I did have to fend for myself and get back on track. And yes I have stood alone in game also, live I didn't join ANY guild until level my first toon was 120 or so, not becuase I hated guilds or anything, just that I'm a guy that has a independant streak, I like to help others, and exceept help sometimes, but I don't like handouts.

2.About your rant you deleted and now basicly commenting on: why are the smaller guilds bitchn? Were was this raid pact ever published, was it published so these smaller guilds could see it and "get in line" so to speak, were is the application form?

3.What drama are you refering to? This is a forum, we are kicking around some ideas (thats what a forum is for) except for a few name callers I've seen no drama.

4.Your 3 best friends have quit raiding, I can't speak to their motives, it's what they have decided to do for whatever reason, you state they hate whatever drama is going on IDK but maybe they are just stepping aside so someone else can take a raid slot, maybe not *shrug*. If this is keeping you from being able to raid, pick someone else and go, but I would ask, if you have done the raid, and have the gear, if you aren't taking others on the raid who don't, then thats part of what others have a problem with the current system, thst the same guys raid depite having all the rewards already and so few others get to do it even once.

5.Per your this: we'll do our best to get you in the pact IF and only IF you can raid BBG and Controller that is not me being a complete dick but that is what Phenoix. CRI Static Builders and VGE had to agree on.if you want to get into the pact contact a(n) officer form any of the guilds show them that your guild can kill BBG and Troller and well put you in the pact<--------this is the problem, 5 guilds have decided who raids the GoBB or controller,

6.THE PROBLEM WITH THE PACT: It was an agreement between 5 guilds, it wasn't a gentlemens agreement with the whole server, there was no schedule posted to the whole server, nobody else other than the 5 guilds knows about free-for-all nights etc. etc THEY decide who is worthy enough to run it or not, thats fine if they had some agreement not to step on each others toes on such and such a day, to not have inter-guild drama, but in EFFECT if you weren't in those guilds, you can't do it on "their" day, those guilds got the idea per their treaty with others that they "owned" the raid on that day. Any small guild or group trying to do it on "their" day got steam rolled and KSed, that anyone other than them on "their" day needed "permission" from them and had to meet some ability inspection from them before they were "allowed" to attempt it, it just comes off as arrogant to people when you tell them they can't do something without your "permission". Who died and made them the "DECIDER" of who can and can't do what?

7.Nice that you can change the text color, and maybe to you thats true, but to others it isn't,:

A. The pact was never posted, others not in the pact didn't know of it's existance, even now that they do there still isn't a application process, without the application and the knowledge of the pact players got "filtered" out of raiding.
B.It's nice of you to conceed that others[u][color=#FF0000][b][u]this will NOT ban people outside of the pact to the ability to kill the Ghost of blackbeard, The Controller raid mobs and boss, Skuttle bug scooter and the Boggy Cpt (when they come in) period end of story[/u][/b][/color][/u]" :) do we also have to apply to you for permission? If not, will you please post the days and times for everyone else on the server you will ALLOW them to raid?
C. I think those in the loop can't see the weeds for lack of the trees.
I'll say it again in a differnt way: because of the agreement/pact those in the pact have had access/intel that others haven't had, they have been "filtered" out from content becuase of that, others feel (right or wrong) that they have been arrogant, because those in the pact have been perceived (rightly or wrongly) as the filtering agent to raid content Even "if" they aren't filtering others out, it is perceived as so since THEY have taken the attitude that such and such is ours on such and such a day and we will "grant" you permission to do it if you ask us.

Let me give you an analegy:
In midevial times kings would set aside areas that were the "king's forest", they were his hunting preserve for him and his friends only, you needed his "permission" to hunt there, if you were caught hunting there by his rangers/guards, they at a minimum would imprison you and most likely kill you. Times being as they were, many times those forests were surrounded my poor villages, often many of those folks were starving, a father not being able to scrape enough food for his family would be driven by desperation to hunt the kings forest, he might get away with it, but do it often enough and he got taken away, leaving his starving family without even what little he could have scrapped up before.

The biigger guilds have (rightly or wrongly) taken on the role of that arrogant king in smaller guilds eyes, the smaller guilds being the starving villagers can see the food in the king's forest (raid), they just can't have it since the king wants enough game for him and his buddies to hunt for their [i]pleasure[/i] , he isn't the one starving. Being on the inside of the bigger guild/pact can you even see (rightly or wrongly) how it might seem arrogant from those not in that guild/pact?
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Mr. Matt will you please shut the feck up i've had it with your Sarcasum. There are 2 types of guilds that would be playing guilds and RAIDING guilds AKA B I G guilds. and as i've tried to stated so many times and i will repost it to where Maybe your dumba22 can understand it. [size=6]the pact is between 5 fecking guilds [size=3][size=4]ergo. this [/size][/size][/size]"The biigger guilds have (rightly or wrongly) taken on the role of that arrogant king in smaller guilds eyes, the smaller guilds being the starving villagers can see the food in the king's forest (raid)" is horse3hit where are you getting this Bigger guilds have taken the role of the king? we've not taken anything away from smaller guilds they are welcome to raid what ever the hell they please so enough is enough.
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Both parties I think would do well to see the others point of view.

If either side wants access to all of the spawns or a guarantee that every spawn is killed immediately then perhaps the developers need to clarify the type of game. Is it pure team PvE or is it a competitive game rewarding those with the time and numbers. One argument I saw earlier was that for large guilds raids were the only type of game left. This will eventually become true for smaller guilds and individuals. It does not mean the smaller guilds want to raid as much as the larger guilds do.

To see the point of view of the smaller guilds look at the effect and not the wording of any pact. Some players would like to be able to do the content without having to compete with other players for it. These people feel EnB is a pure PvE game and whilst it is not PvP other players introduce a level of competition which given their numbers, equipment and practice makes it hard to make any inroad or even to raid at all (without being beaten to the kill)

For small guild members, looking at it from the large guilds point of view. They want to make sure no slot is wasted and that they get a fair chance, regardless of whether you think it is fair the intention is to stop fighting over it. Forming a guild alliance and getting into rotation would be fair as players would all get equal chance.

Back to the big guild members, some players or alliances might not want to raid weekly. Could they request a one off slot in rotation? (obviously going in at the end of the next cycle, or full cycle and a bit). Having fixed days could be difficult as well since peoples real life commitments might mean they can never raid on the allocated fixed day. If the public or alliance raid does not kill the boss you are not losing out. It is killed the next day by the big guild. Small guilds will likely have lesser equipment initially and may need to learn the encounters. Demanding that they need to be able to do it before they have had a chance to work on it is something which small guilds might find unfair. If they kill the boss then large guilds do not get loot, if they do not kill the boss then large guilds still do not get loot, it makes no difference.

If the public/alliance raid failed to take down the boss on a regular basis due to something like lack of numbers then it might be suggested that a minimum attendance is required. Large guild players could also join these raids although as backups, otherwise it defeats the whole point of a sharing system.

If the two parties cannot come to a compromise then I would hope the developers can add in extra functionality which allows them to do so, or at least means they do not get in each others way. If the people currently raiding most end up raiding the same amount and for the same loot quantity then having a small fraction of additional raids would not devalue the rare items and could satisfy the requirements of the smaller guilds. Everyone would be happy, raiding as much as is an even share but with the larger guilds taking extra time when smaller guilds do not want it.

With such a small server population if everyone could agree to some system then spawn times could also be returned to fixed and published.
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Forest - trees, you aren't seeing the trees, you are in the forest.

What has you so upset about my proposal?
Do you even know what I proposed?

Right now the smaller guilds (wrongly) perceive the bigger guilds as the gate keepers to raid content.
They think "why that blankity-blank JonesPW won't let us raid, why him and his muckity-muck guild are such jerks!"
You might be the most helpful,kind person in the world and be the go to guy getting them in the raid in reality, but they perceive it otherwise, because of their small size, your guild's large size and the pact, it makes you (and the 5) APPEAR as the gate keepers to content, forever shut to them.

My proposal was this:
1.Make the raids activated via some key, of which no set guild can even be PERCEIVED as some gate keeper, make the key not so easy that its a gimme but something that has to be worked towards.

Some responded that that wouldn't work for the current raiders, they won't like having to go farm something up for the key.

My counter proposal was:
2. Make it both ways, raid remains the same on the same timer and the raiders can still have their pact etc. BUT have an alternate route to raid via that same key method, allowing those that either can't wait for their turn in the pact to roll around, or in the case of a smaller guild to get the key and not disturb the current rotation etc.

BOTH of these proposals would eliminate the perception that somehow the raid guilds are the gatekeepers keeping everyone else out, they don't like to have permission to get in via the pact? Go farm for the key.

So what about those two ideas do you find so threatening that they warrant a rant?

My sarcasm, I have repeatedly pointed out a problem some folks are experiencing, those that like the current status quo have brushed aside my saying anything about it, and some have even said personal things, and even derogitory, or have ranted :wacko: . So I responded with sarcasm, thereby highlighting either their inappropriate attacks, or the unwarranted rants.

If you have a counter proposal to my ideas, by all means present them, thats what a forum is for after all. If you find fault with my logic or see something I haven't considered in my proposal, by all means present them so that I and others can consider your point of view, and the merits of any ideas YOU come up with.

Others have seen my proposals and pointed out some possible flaws, and after presenting them in the forum, I either agreed that I didn't see that and rethought my proposal and adjusted it, or disagreed.

Some of the other issues that came up:
1.Increased raid access would flood the market with high end gear.
1. A) My counter idea was: make sure the high end stuff in the activated raid was non-trade/unique, so they can't sell it, and would have to raid it themselves to get it, and if they didn't like 85% quality would have to get another key to raid and get better, tossing the old for the new, never having more than one to sell.

2.Increased raid access would flood the market of non-uber gear (like components and tradable stuff).
2. A) My counter idea: Make the activated raid a timer event, set some cool down timer on a time line to the spawning of the original raid. maybe a week or a 24 hr., so they can't spam the raid for gear without some break in between.

3.New key access would just make the key drop mobs camped and the same problem would be big guilds would have THOSE camped and small guilds would be denighed.
3. A)My counter idea: make the mobs that drop it be highly scattered or highly represented mobs, so that no one spawn can be so camped that other mobs can't be gotten to. Example: chavez, ostrea, spore mothers,RD, or zenshia. Those mobs have multiple spawn points and if any one spawn was camped then the searchers chould try another spawn point for their drop.

4.Key campers would negatively impact mission takers mission kills since they will be hogging mobs the mission takers will need.
4. A)Make the key an assembled item not unlike the lure for FB, they may need one drop only item for the assembly, but make it a world drop. I.E. all the chavez may drop that item, or all the spore mothers etc. so that key item searchers won't camp the mobs needed for mission takers, they will go to the out of the way spots to farm unmolested and have the same or better odds of the rare drop happening.
B)In making the key an assembled item, incorporate material that needs more than one player type to aquire. I.E. A tank might just sit on mobs and farm for the drop solo, but they wouold need ores for the assembly, thereby encouraging a guild or group effort.

5.Key item drop would just be a new auction item, we have gone back and forth on if thats bad, I personally don't think so.
5. A) If its bad, then the assembly could be structured so the holder can't trade it.
B)If not bad (as I feel) then the finder might get a whole new set of friends through having it, and maybe even get a invite to a raid they may never even thought or hoped of seeing.
C)Make the assembly use items that are currently not being utilized, like L9 ores that have no use in anything else, or sufficent mob drops that are currently considered vendor trash etc.

What in any of all that is so offensive to ANYONE that it warrants either derogitory comments, flames, or outright rants?

Like I said, if you have a better idea, by all means present them so they can be considered, and it's just at the proposal stage, even IF it was took up, when if ever would it be put in? Edited by Mattsacre
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