Controller Raid

[Dragonsmurf]

Hello, this raid in particular has gotten to a point where we all need to meet up and discuss future plans when regards of this raid. I have to admit, I also have added to this mass confusion myself (I am far from perfect). Either way, we all need to set up a time where we can sit down and discuss this raid in particular and try and put things back on track. To my knowledge there are 5 guilds currently who can take/kill the controller, mine being one of them.

Now my investigation is finding out there is possibly another group of individuals (or guild) that are fully capable of taking controller, and these people (group/guild) are probably unaware of the current schedule (again I am assuming that they may not, as I still do not know who it was that took/killed controller on Monday February 6th 2012). There are 7 days in a week, more then enough days in a week to work with one another, putting controller on a FFA mode is not gonna solve the problem, but only increase the chances of issues. The only other solution I can think of (came by way of a fellow leader) is to have controller an activated raid instead of a spawn timed raid (not even sure it is even possible), this way those who can build the device and kill controller gets a chance. (similar to the Fish Bowl raid)

GoBB (Ghost of Black Beard) is a completely different matter as it requires a bit more then just a single group of individuals.

[Klyde]

VGE's day was Monday, however, the upset was not caused by the controller, but GoBB that was gone on Monday. Which narrows down the list of those able to take him to a few guilds and a couple of individuals that can succesfully multibox him. As Bell said, if the agreement between the players is not upheld, it will not stand, and go back to how it used to be.

[Dragonsmurf]

I took it as the controller was took, so my bad on that one. And I do completely agree that we do need to stick with the plan that we all have agreed with.

[Rezwalker]

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]I haven't been on in a few days so I missed all this good stuff, but if with an average of 150 people on at any given day, we already have a problem with raids, can you imagine what will happen when there's 500, or 1000 on. The current spawn times suck IMO and it can only get worse with time, we need to get the fun factor back in the game if we ever hope to even see login numbers increase and minimize the guild issues of who gets to do what when. And by the way, how about the rest of us who don't belong to a big guild, or any guild, and just want to get a group or two together to do a raid, we have to ask permission?...... and from whom? [/font]

[Mattsacre]

+1 rez.....
Thats what I hated about the old EnB, raid control "certain guilds" would "own" content, excluding any hope of others getting to do that content. "Certain" guilds would ninja loot stuff (until they fixed that) if someone managed to beat them to "their" raid while they organized. "certain" guilds were so agregious about this that it took server wide warnings and change of TOS rules to address their behaviour..especially the RD base.

Personally I would like to see all raids activated events, the ones that put in the work to meet raid conditions would have loot rights etc. and no ninja etc. and no guild would "own" content. This would allow the single players/small guilds to get to content, even if its a multi-group event, they could organize in advance and invite other groups in to experience it.

If here was some fear that loot from said activatable events would flood the market or inbalance things then a player perticipation cool down could be instituted, once they had done the content they couldn't do it again for said amount of time.

"So such and such guild killed x raid and now nobody can do it for a week? Man I never gonna get to try it!" Make it activated..then that guy could go work towards what stuff is needed to acivate it and gather his friends and do it. This is sort of how FB evolved into..he who farmed the feather was the raid father/mother. everyone agreed that they got to pick the raid boss and set the raid perameters etc.

[Anakhahawk]

+2 rez

/rant on

Where is the forum post on who has 'rights' to and the 'agreement between the players' on this raid? I certainly didn't agree to anything of the sort (Being a player and all).
Is this something organised between select guilds? It certainly sounds like it. Where is this schedule?
So what happens when i'm set to give it a go (Not that any of my toons are in a position to contend for it at the moment) ........... do I need permission from these 'top' guilds or do i ask the Emulator Team when a slot is availble? I can't see a calendar/schedule for this event for guilds to participate.

/rantoff

[Amethyst]

+4 Rez. When do we have to for a line for Scooter and other bosses too? I'd like to think the big guilds (after farming the raids for weeks) would step aside if lesser mortals put together a group. Or if there was something going down - invited a lesser mortal to join them? It happens sometimes. ???

[jackal12]

Some may have a different view on this, but my personal interpretation of this so call arrangement exists only for the guilds involved. Members of these guilds will not contest the raid at a few given days of the week.

Anyone or guild not involved with this arrangement is open to do these raids at any given time.


My apologies to all involved that I started this mess. Edited February 10, 2012 by jackal

[Lannister]

All,

I agree with Jack's point. The agreement was simply a way for the larger guilds to agree not step on each others toes and was never intended to exclude others. If another guild or group did one of the raids during that time so be it. We just knew that on Monday, for example, Builders and Static would stand aside to allow Von an extra chance.

It did work out well for a while - then got confusing with talk of other guilds.

My view now is that the agreement has reached the end of its shelf life and should probably be set aside.

Lets also remember that these raids were always hot commodities and highly competitive in live. Not everyone can do them, and those who can should compete for the right.

Lann

[Mattsacre]

It's not something you started "jackal" it has ALWAYS been a sore point in live, and now, that so many are excluded from content. Weither it be timers, or conditional raids, always in live and now there have been those that 'hog" the raids, the RD event got so bad they had to tell greedy guilds to step off or else, when they pushed it anyway they changed the TOS and gave server warnings,when they STILL persisted suspensions and outright bans followed.

I (and others) realize that the larger guilds in live and now in ST4 a "gentlemans/womans agreement" about turns on content, but you must have known there was some burning resentment from some of those guilds not in that agreement about being excluded right? Imagine the uproar that would insue if the government reinstituted jim crow laws, how would you feel if there was a "gold-trimmed-water-fountain-for-me" and a "water-trough-for-you.....boy". That is sort of how people feel when they never get to do stuff because they aren't in select few guilds.

Becuase of the nature of "unique" loot drop only stuff, there will ALWAYS be someone willing to cut someone elses throat to get a higher quality this or that and do events repeatedly at the detriment of others getting to, just becuase they can. That was what was so bad about games like EVE, 0.0 - 0.5 space and the game devs that catered to it. People "owned" space just because they had had more muggers as friends.

Live I got to do FB a bunch until I got geared out and then would throw in to help others get stuff, the good thing about it after the lure was put in,we and other guilds knew what it was like to be shut out by other bigger guilds, so we always held slots for smalls and singles EVERY TIME. I got to do OCD even...becuase it was our small guild "manus ignota" that put in the hours and hours of work and millions of credits to do so FIRST. It was our guild that got ninja'ed by a sister guild and the ensuing uproar from that, and the RD base that led to loot rights being changed.

I got to do the warden...simply because a fellow guildie and friend was willing to sit in arduinne hour after hour and watch for the spawn and alert us all. That event had been "owned" by bigger guilds as well, the only reason we got to is they was asleep and we got together before their camper could wake them all and log on. I got to do that one in dahin, just because I could JS peeps and was traveling through and rescue them. I got to do the mordana because of invites from bigger raider guild, for the simple reason that my toon had mined all the high end ore they used in building thier gear and ammo, they tossed me a bone there.

I never got to do RD base..why? the timer...and that it was never uncamped at spawn, bigger guilds ALWAYS "owned" it.
I never got to do controller..why? once agian timer and owned.
BBG didn't exist, I have got to do him a total numer of times with my toons...once. Why? camped/timed...I got to do him before the long timer...now its got to be even worse.
I never got to do the one in DT..why? camped/timed. Even though I once again provided most the stuff that allowed others to do so....
I got to do bunny for the simple reason I mined every stitch of ore, camped the spawn, and gathered a PUG to do so.

I'm sure there is something I'm forgetting, but I think you are getting the drift and sense of the problem. Because of timers/camps/big guild "owning" and limited slots/rolls for loot, large swaths of players don't EVER get access to the fun.

So you only turned over a rock and exposed the ugly truth about the segrigated water cooler my friend.

[Elrick[IS]]

"Owning the timer" is no longer so simple. All such timers are variable on a base time +/- 50%.

If "hypothetically" a raid, like Ghost of Black Beard, is on a 24hour timer then it can spawn from 12hours to 36 hours. That makes camping or spawn ownership unlikely.

Larger guilds may, by the simple fact of being larger, be better able to detect spawn times but it remains the reward of persistence.

I see no way to improve on the system within the constrains of the game system itself.

[Klyde]

Originally, the "arrangement" was started between the larger guilds due to conflicts that arose from them all competing for the same raid at the same time. VGE, and I would imagine other large guilds have helped others with these raids at times. [b]Nobody is being excluded, period[/b]. If a small guild can do it, go for it.

In live I was a member of a small guild, we made friends with a big guild and were soon taking part in raids we couldn't possibly do. As others have said, maybe it's time to set aside the agreement and we can all just go for it together.

edit to bold the important part.

[shadowxsx]

[quote name='Elrick' timestamp='1328923037' post='53488']
"Owning the timer" is no longer so simple. All such timers are variable on a base time +/- 50%.

If "hypothetically" a raid, like Ghost of Black Beard, is on a 24hour timer then it can spawn from 12hours to 36 hours. That makes camping or spawn ownership unlikely.

Larger guilds may, by the simple fact of being larger, be better able to detect spawn times but it remains the reward of persistence.

I see no way to improve on the system within the constrains of the game system itself.
[/quote]

Sorry but I have to disagree.

Timed spawns need to go poof be gone and all the raids go FB style (activated).. The +/- timers don't matter as much to larger guilds that can have some one at the spawn almost 24/7 and with multiboxing far easier to do now. The +/- helps but is not a garuntee that some guilds do not own a spawn. Just look at the Warder, weak mob but very desired and many have yet to personally see it in the EMU. And by guilds I do not mean a specific guild, just the larger guilds together in general as they do now own it just these agreements can exclude others even if not intentional.

I have said it since way back before these raids were even in that we needed to do away with the timers and do them activated that way everyone has a chance and the larger guilds do not own content and these agreements between guilds would no longer be needed (and the ocasional disputes as to who killed what and when wouldn't happen) other than maybe the ocassional guild seeing if anyone else is already doing or preparing to do it.

That would do away with the hassle and gripes that timers in general cause. Just look at about every single MMO out today for epic content as none I know of off hand use timers for anything other than the occasional rare spawn and all epic boss content is instanced. I know it would be a hassle (if not impossible) to do instanced like others do, but just going activated would solve most of the issues. They did away with timers because they realised what we are saying here is true.

I know we want to stay as close to live as possible but there is room for improvement and improvements have been made already, if we wanted to stick to live exactly we would not have the 3 other classes now and paramis would not be around either. Edited February 11, 2012 by shadowxsx

[Mattsacre]

Or both, raids could have the best of both worlds like FB evolved into, there was a gate crash that was timed that was the FB precursor, then they thought up the lure active and new zone drop. The old raid still was there and on a timer..it became the miniFB or "gate crash" raid.

That allowed for best of both worlds, those that had to have the ubergoober gear had to gather the lure and organize a raid, leaving either room enough for smaller groups to orginize into a full raid and experiencing content that way (as we did..allways having a group left open for invitees) or the timer, letting small groups or guilds a shot at seeing it, since that gear wasn't ubergoober most the big guilds wouldn't bother with it unless they were one of the helpful types and would help the smaller guild organize and run it sort as a "practic run".

Like I said before, if a active was implimented, and the fear was still that gear would flood the market or saturate some other way, then a pertisipation timer could go in. You did a active or time raid then you couldn't do it again for x time, or couldn't loot for x time. All of this would allow for RL, as Elrick said, even with +/- timers a more member guild is going to have a inherant advantage. However "within constrants of game?" FB is activated...OCD was/is...the raid in dahin was....the one in DT was...the bunyip was.....how is there "constraints"? Perhaps on some coding..not being a coder can't say on that..but there was/is already what 5 right there..why can't the others be?

If both active/timed were in, both routes would require "persistance" just another type, timed would still have its campers, and heck they might even still be "owned" by larger guilds after a activated varient was in! But the other "persistance" would take the mat farmers etc. that was why MCP/heal maw was SUCH good things....persons willing to mine/persist could get at great gear without camping a raid spawn, and like I did get in live from the raid guild invites I got, becuase I provided a large portion of what was needed they wouldn't think of not inviting me with actives small guilds could get in that way as well, they "persisted" on getting the material for the key, they deserve access.

I'm sorry klyde..have to disagree with your bold type there,--->[b] MANY[/b][b] is being excluded, period.[i] Because you haven't been is not evidence that other haven't.[/i][/b]

[Mattsacre]

The world is flat, everyone knows that!, Clearly the moon is made of cheese!, Trust me, I never lie! ,Don't worry baby, I'll pull out in time!

Notice something about all those statements?
They all ask you to accept the voicers veracity without any supporting evidence.

Many HAVE been excluded, perhaps YOUR experience hasn't been so, I am genuinely happy for you.

What do I offer as proof to support my claim that others have been excluded? Well, my experience, and some of those other "MANY", just scroll up to see a few, or peruse the forum a bit, you don't have to be Ray Charles to miss my proof.

The world is flat? Really? Wow..do you perchance know how many miles it is to the nearest edge of the world? I got to see this for myself.
The moon is made of cheese? Cool! Bring back a sample? What kind of cheese? Is it good on nachoes?
I know you never lie! Neither do I! But just to make my lawyer happy (you know how anal he is) how about you sign this contract.
You will pull out in time? Good! So you have affidavits from all your former lovers verifying this to be true? Hand them over if so...oh and are they notorized?........

[kjeron]

How is anyone being excluded by certain guilds agreeing to not do those raids 3-4 days a week?
There may be other factor's preventing you from these raids, but it's not their agreement.

[Rezwalker]

I think that other guilds/groups feel excluded by the simple fact that......guild A has Monday, guild B has Tuesday, guild C has Wednesday and so on, so basically these
guilds feel they have the right to the troller or Gob on those days, as we have all seen the chat from time to time asking, WTF, who stole our spawn............

[Mattsacre]

[quote name='will' timestamp='1328997906' post='53531']
How is anyone being excluded by certain guilds agreeing to not do those raids 3-4 days a week?
There may be other factor's preventing you from these raids, but it's not their agreement.
[/quote]
Do you know the definition of "Monopoly"?...see also Conspire,Cabal, anti-trust and hoarding.

Basicly a few persons or entities come to a secret agreement between themselves to use their power to restrict the flow of some goods or service, or in this case access, in order to benefit themselves in a inordinate fashion and to the detriment of those not in their conspiracy or cabal.

So chuck and bob and stu have a meeting and agree between themselves that THEY will control X resource and through scarcity due to the artificial low supply, they can demand higher rewards.

So along comes bill and he wants some of what bob,chuck and stu have conspired to control, but for whatever reason chuck don't like bill, say he finds his skin color annoying, so chuck tells bob and stu, "don't let bill have any of what we got. Now would that be fair? Thats why governments have put Anti-trust laws in place.

So to be specific: guilds A,B and C conspired to a "schedule" between themselves, through their greater numbers, they have the raid points always camped, and when the raid boss spawns they "take their turn". Then guild B then C will follow suit.

Now a guild D comes along and would like to have access to the raid, but since they aren't part of the cabal, and they don't have the membership to camp the boss 24/7, nor are they privy to when the boss last spawned, so in effect A,B,C through their conspiracy and secret information have "owned" the raid excluding D and others from it. Is there any wonder why guild D and others might hold some resentment towards A,B and C?

The agreement you refer to wasn't not a agreement between them to not raid 2-3 days a week so others can do it, it was we A.sun,B mon,C tues,A wed, B thur, C fri, A sat nd then rotate. They tied up the whole week between them...I.E. MONOPOLIZED.

[Klyde]

Well, the one thing I completely agree with is suggesting the raids be activated. Or even instanced if possible.
I think that would solve some of the problems, or at least I hope it would.

[Shaddex]

/dev hat off

I can t see how changing all the current "Timed" events into activated ones will make any thing better.
All that this will do is make even more people pushed out as activate item drops will be camped just like the feather and ooze are now.
There will also will be an influx of "Uber" items in the game and as a result you will get players "Spacing" their 105% so they can get a 107%.

On "Live" I was in a guild on Pegasus and although there were the likes of A99 and RIP we were still able to run all of the raids and get the high end items.
Persistence was the key. We did the warder many times and never got the 51% we needed to get looting rights. It made it exciting............

All that making raids activated will do is make even more players upset as the sites that drop the items needed are camped by the same guild / players that camp the timed raids now.

With a small player base, the only way to "Share the wealth" is to make the timed raids very difficult to complete so that there are no Guilds big enough to complete them, and they have to get other players to help out.
Market > Orginising a Troller raid. Join Chan 6 for info.

Share the wealth and sell off the loot to the highest bidder like we all did with the public FB raids on Pegalag.
Those with no creds can do the raids and get creds. Once they have enough, you can bid on the ubers !

Most raids can be completed with 1-3 groups. Cant you remember the Troller being 8+ groups. Same for the FB raid.
Lets make the raids harder so that we need A LOT more players to complete them.

/dev hat on.

/Flame suit on.

[Lot]

+1 for Controller and GOBB to be made in to activated raids.

[Mattsacre]

Ooze shield on the lure is a exception not a rule, since it wasn't part of the original build from live but a shortcut in ST4 that has had unintended effects...feather was a world drop from RD, no specific RD dropped the feather, some had a slightly better drop rate (notably higher lvl RD dropped it more) but all RD could drop it, so no set RD were so camped that a potential drop was denighed anyone trying.

You miss the point, if raid spawns are timed then the one single spot is camped, control of the raid is just that controled at that point.

If however it was activated, the key for that, whatever it may be would be gathered elsewere, thus no one spot could be controled, thus anyone with persistance could get the thing together, think bunyip here, it took cupidite or a couple other ores in sufficient quantities fed to bunny to spawn event. The ores were all over the universe, anyone bothering to gather the ores could do so and not have just one spot being mined since there were multiple places.

As to influx of uber items, how so? You have to personally loot a unique non-trade, there is no "flood" you can only have one and can't sell excess ones. True there are those that toss a Q 85% for a 105%, but that is what is happening now with guild controled raids....they "own" the raid excluding others from it and run it repeatedly until they get top notch quality they want.

Loot that is tradeable and auctionable? Who should be more deserving of the rewards from uber tradables in your mind?

A. someone that persisted in gathering all the stuff needed to access the raid (killed a bunch of something..mined a bunch of something etc.), organized a raid, rolled on it, then got the luck and auctioned it.
Or
B. someone that through guild mechanics had a backroom deal to control access to raid, took a turn once a week/day etc. excluding ALL OTHER PLAYERS NOT IN THOSE GUILDS and then auctioning off the proceeds.

If you choose B. why bother with all the problems getting it? Why not just have the GM secretly on a weekly basis drop a uber item in your personal hold or 100m credits or something. I mean controlling raid access is essentially that isn't it? Only me and my friends can have this..the rest of you can go to hell since this is OUR raid.

Remember "Heal the Maw?", part of that took chavez herbal remedy item drop, true certain chavez were more camped than others (glenn especially), but since all chavez dropped it, and chavez were all over, if one group was spawned and campers wouldn't share, you could go to another spot and get what you needed, you were never completly shut out by camps.

[Mattsacre]

I could agree with larger groups needed, but there is one problem...server population. When can we ever get 8+ groups together with current population? And if we could with current population it still hits a snag, player play times. People that have play times at lower population (say grave yard) will still get excluded and the timed raid potential has been burned up by higher population time players even if they could get 8+ together.

It still boils down to large guild with 46 members has the 8 groups and others don't, if they play at say 7pm and take the 24ish raid time, then even if the 3 am group is lucky enough to not have the raid time burned by 7pm..and the raid spawn at 3 am, they STILL can't get in since there aren't 46 players with a toon in experiance range able to even do it so they can put a PUG together.

Were as if it was activatable, they can organize in advance, announce that on such and such day, at such and such time, x player is starting a raid, they have the key, those that wish to experience said raid say so. Is that not a better spread of play, that a lot of potential players can get in and enjoy, rather than the same select cabal of players running it repeatedly, keeping others from doing so?

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Be careful what you ask for here guys because we are going to have to find a way to keep the so called 'uber items' from flooding gameplay. They aren't supposed to be there in majority regardless of the desire to have them. If we make them activatable we're going to have to set long timers on those raids for your individual account to prevent you from spamming them and thereby keep the items from becoming as common as grains of sand.

There's more that would have to go into the decision. You also have to realize that there's going to be more raids by the time we're done with different equipment that might draw off some of the resources of these super guilds.

We cannot instance this client, or at least have not found a way to do so, so that option is completely out.

Its either strongest takes it, or activatable and long, annoying timers (I hated this in fFXI for example where they did some events this way because I couldn't go with my friends when I wanted to)

Has anyone ever tried to band together as the smaller groups and take on the 'big guys' and smash their nose in the nearest poop pile like a bad puppy when/if they are dominating a spawn? This is what we did in the live game when something was needed. Sometimes we won out and they gave in, sometimes we didn't.

We also do have rules written in to code of conduct if one major guild is spawn camping/controlling a single spawn to that degree.

Keep in mind that we must resolve your quandry from within game mechanics and preferably without inventing new systems to accommodate it.

[Terrell [BT]]

Over time make more alternative weapons, devices, shields, engines, & reactors that aren't as good as the ubers, but worthwhile to get. That may put a little less pressure on some of the raids. It also introduces more choices in L8-L9 equipment. I do think that Matt, and Shaddex make some good points too.