New Models2

[Evermore [LDEV]]

[i]??? [/i]

[tg626]

I'm currently unempolyed, (which is why I'm here, really) so new hardware ISN"T happening - I play on a 1.3gh Intel Celron M Laptop with Intel Graphics, and on a 3Ghz P4 Desktop with an AGP Nvidia card, both 2Gb of memory.

The Client does limit it's rendering to the room you are in, BUT in the case of Progen bases there are often "decorative spaces" that you can't walk into (you see them through windows etc.) that are HUGH. Many times larger then the space you can run around in. I know removing them would raise the frame rate because if I stand and spin in a circle I go from 30+ fps to <10fps depending on weather I am facing these spaces or I am facing away from them.

In any case, it was just an idea and I didn't really expect it would result in any changes for my old gear.

[Daywolf]

3Ghz P4 Desktop with an AGP Nvidia card and rendering problems?? I don't spend much time in Progen stations, but I've never had any fps problems in any that I've been to, including exploring most I've been to (Radeon X series card w/512MB DRAM, slower 64Bit CPU, stable system). I don't think it's a hardware problem. Celeron laptop is grindy I'm sure, I used to have one just like that... stupid gateway lol. The laptop answer I was expecting, not sure about the desktop. Settings, drivers etc. Maybe I’ll need to visit more Progen statio:):)

Odd, forums are acting up, last two posts all the body of the messages are in the "Profession:" columns.

Oh as for new hardware, unless you were a laptop diehard, I was just going to suggest a videocard if you needed it, older ones are dirt cheep, but I don't think you need one. Edited January 21, 2012 by StarbuckJD

[Falstar [MOD]]

I'm seeing if I can fix the other topic by transferring posts. Hold tight.

O.K. It appears any posts after the ones that were normal were squished. I've closed that topic and opened this one to continue discussion. To see the first posts on this, just go [url="https://forum.enb-emulator.com/index.php?/topic/6375-new-models1/"]here[/url]. Edited January 21, 2012 by Dakynos
Update

[Mimir[IS]]

I'm a bit confused with Mouse's request for a C# programmer to get the new game client rolling. LOL as far as I know this is still an all volunteer effort so "assigning" you a body just won't fly here IMHO. I think if one or more of the devs want to give it a go with you it would be up to them.

Personally I would prefer to see the server code up and running before any resources were spent on the client, but again that could be just me.

[Shaddex]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1327165823' post='51927']
I'm a bit confused with Mouse's request for a C# programmer to get the new game client rolling. LOL as far as I know this is still an all volunteer effort so "assigning" you a body just won't fly here IMHO. I think if one or more of the devs want to give it a go with you it would be up to them.

Personally I would prefer to see the server code up and running before any resources were spent on the client, but again that could be just me.
[/quote]

I have to side with Mimir on this one. Whilst a new Client / or just new graphics would be nice I feel out time and efforts would be better pointed towards the current state of the game.
Let get it working and to "Live" status before we start down the road of new client.

[Daywolf]

First, thanks for fixing the topic.
[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1327165823' post='51927']Personally I would prefer to see the server code up and running before any resources were spent on the client, but again that could be just me.
[/quote]My same personal preference. Like I said, it's probably more about five or even ten years down the line that we might start having problems with evolving OS's which is the only timeframe I mentioned, not client project start date. Of course it would take time to develop even with modifying a client that already has much of the work done for a 3D space environment, still I see this as low priority for the time being since the server is even still in a pre-alpha state. Stability and usability is job one, be it for the server now, and later for the client beyond just a desire but probably under necessity at some point, my speculation. It’s a given that technology will continue to move forward, and maybe we will see EnB take advantage of such platforms in the future.

[Lucy]

[quote name='Mimir' timestamp='1327165823' post='51927']
I'm a bit confused with Mouse's request for a C# programmer to get the new game client rolling. LOL as far as I know this is still an all volunteer effort so "assigning" you a body just won't fly here IMHO. I think if one or more of the devs want to give it a go with you it would be up to them.

Personally I would prefer to see the server code up and running before any resources were spent on the client, but again that could be just me.
[/quote]

I wasn't requesting that anybody be assigned. I was musing that I could do it, but I'd need help with the networking side of things. I agree that focusing on the server is more important. Though there will always be people who want to improve the graphics. As has been said, the engine is outdated and improving the graphics with the current engine will just further tax it. I was at no time asking for resources, personnel or otherwise, to be allocated to me.

[Daywolf]

[quote name='Mouse' timestamp='1327181278' post='51937']
As has been said, the engine is outdated and improving the graphics with the current engine will just further tax it.
[/quote]imo it's not about aesthetics, eye candy improvements would be nice, but it's about a lot of other issues. Some graphical improvements that have been done, which have already been discussed, should actually improve performance with this client. More profound performance tweaks could probably be done if client code were available, which it is not and probably never will be. The rendering engine conundrum.

[Mimir[IS]]

But...Now that I have been thinking about the client, II bought two licenses for Shiva a long while ago...I have been updating it, (and not using and most likely never will) but if there is an entity that I could xfer the license to (EnB group) I would be willing to contact the Shiva company for a license xfer.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Mouse,

We can provide you some understanding of the existing client, and we can teach you what is needed to communicate with the proxy but do you grasp the scope of that project entirely? A client like that usually takes a fully trained programmers several months, that being said if you're into it let me know and I will arrange a conversation for you with the folks who know the most, like I said, bear in mind we don't know anywhere near close to everything about the existing client, just what we've needed to get by.

[C Del[IS]]

[quote name='Mouse' timestamp='1327181278' post='51937']
I wasn't requesting that anybody be assigned. I was musing that I could do it, but I'd need help with the networking side of things. I agree that focusing on the server is more important. Though there will always be people who want to improve the graphics. As has been said, the engine is outdated and improving the graphics with the current engine will just further tax it. I was at no time asking for resources, personnel or otherwise, to be allocated to me.
[/quote]
I would help with this. It should be noted that I'm a student and don't have a very large amount of time, but this is something I've always wanted to try as well, and I happen to be a decent C# programmer with some experience handling the network side of EnB. It's nothing compared to a new client, but I did write a chat client for the GMs that essentially tricks the server into thinking it's a normal client so it can send and receive chat, so I'm familiar with the data exchange that needs to take place at least up to and including avatar login.

[Tienbau]

arrrghhh noooo, not talk of a C# client again!!!!

[Daywolf]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327279787' post='52026']
arrrghhh noooo, not talk of a C# client again!!!!
[/quote]Welllll think of it this way, windows may not be able to run it in 5 or 10 years, but Linux probably will be able to lol
Ode to the days of MUD programming in C. A lot of tool makers seem to like C# though which seems ok for that. Robust? C++

[Tienbau]

yeah C# you are locked into one platform. Also it just feels ... icky ... coding in it, like Java.

C# on linux? I can just see the linux gurus pulling their beards in consternation in the uni refectory over that one.

[Daywolf]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327297777' post='52032']C# on linux? I can just see the linux gurus pulling their beards in consternation in the uni refectory over that one.
[/quote]hehehe yeah it was kinda meant to be a joke. But then again so is the .net framework on Linux, though it seems to be closer to usable. Edited January 23, 2012 by StarbuckJD

[C Del[IS]]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327297777' post='52032']
yeah C# you are locked into one platform. Also it just feels ... icky ... coding in it, like Java.

C# on linux? I can just see the linux gurus pulling their beards in consternation in the uni refectory over that one.
[/quote]
Oddly enough, I love C# and hate Java. Something about C# just feels better. Anywho, C# will produce more 'robust' code per man-hour than C/C++ will because of it's inherent exception-handling devices. I would love C# on linux, but because .NET support only comes from a third-party project instead of directly from M$, I wouldn't bet on it becoming a stable and usable platform any time soon. Don't get me wrong, if I need hands-on control of memory and efficiency is a huge concern, I like me some C, but for putting a project together quickly, C# takes the cake and honestly, you don't have to sacrifice a whole lot for that expedience.

[Zathman]

I support any endeavor to improve upon the game. I'm no developer by any stretch, but I could certainly be a supporter in the little ways I can.

I was playing the beta for Starhawk on the PS3 yesterday, and while flying around in the Space map in the Hawk-Ship-Mech thing, I was thinking, "Man I wished E&B looked at least this good..."

[Lucy]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327297777' post='52032']
yeah C# you are locked into one platform. Also it just feels ... icky ... coding in it, like Java.

C# on linux? I can just see the linux gurus pulling their beards in consternation in the uni refectory over that one.
[/quote]

One platform... I suppose Windows 32&64bit, Mac PPC&Intel, Android, Wii, PS3, XBox360, iOS, and web player, (Linux coming soonish) are all one platform. Cuz... you know... that's the list of platforms the engine I use supports. They must all be one platform though.

As for C# on Linux. [url="http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page"]Yeaaaaaah.[/url]


[quote name='C Del' timestamp='1327336165' post='52052']
Oddly enough, I love C# and hate Java. Something about C# just feels better. Anywho, C# will produce more 'robust' code per man-hour than C/C++ will because of it's inherent exception-handling devices. I would love C# on linux, but because .NET support only comes from a third-party project instead of directly from M$, I wouldn't bet on it becoming a stable and usable platform any time soon. Don't get me wrong, if I need hands-on control of memory and efficiency is a huge concern, I like me some C, but for putting a project together quickly, C# takes the cake and honestly, you don't have to sacrifice a whole lot for that expedience.
[/quote]

Ok, well, the thing is that Mono is actually very stable. It's the engine used by the Unity game engine (which is the engine I use), and it works on all the above mentioned platforms. On consoles and iOS devices where JIT is typically disallowed, it does full AOT compilation. I wish it'd let me do full AOT compilation for the platforms that allow JIT, but meh... Edited January 27, 2012 by Mouse

[C Del[IS]]

Nice, didn't know they have mono specifically for android. I'm going to have to look into that.

[Daywolf]

[quote name='Mouse' timestamp='1327633509' post='52441']As for C# on Linux. [url="http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page"]Yeaaaaaah.[/url]
[/quote]Yeah I use that to run a server app I have, it's come a long way the past couple of years.

[Tienbau]

running through a web client is kinda cheating, although I have to confess I have seen some good stuff running through Unity. I just don't think it's quite got the same energy as a well written native C++ engine.

But, like Cdel was saying - I guess if you just want something working quickly, C# is pretty hard to beat.

[Lucy]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1327253623' post='51966']
Mouse,

We can provide you some understanding of the existing client, and we can teach you what is needed to communicate with the proxy but do you grasp the scope of that project entirely? A client like that usually takes a fully trained programmers several months, that being said if you're into it let me know and I will arrange a conversation for you with the folks who know the most, like I said, bear in mind we don't know anywhere near close to everything about the existing client, just what we've needed to get by.
[/quote]

Well, since I'm going to be diving into the server code soon, I'll be able to learn about the protocol. But I'd like to familiarize myself with the server code, and my roommate's going to work on trying to figure out the protocol to make a C# networking library that can be used. Still, like I said, I'd rather have a firm grasp on the server code so I can get a general idea of the scope that's required for making a client.

Yes, I do know the scope required for a client. It's a lot of really really hard work, especially to do it properly. I've done a client for Second Life in Unity using the LibOMV library. I got it mostly functional for representing the world and navigating through it, as well as chatting. The only real issue I had was in converting from right hand to left hand coordinates and rotation. So the best I could do and still maintain proper orientation of world objects was that everything you saw in my client was actually a mirror image of what SL was really supposed to look like. I scrapped it after that because I couldn't figure out the math for converting between the two hands. I can work in left handed or right handed math, and I can convert positions and whatnot, but converting local quaternions between the two... that's over my head...

I've also one a few clients for other avatar chat systems based entirely on a white paper of the protocols. None of them had encrypted handshakes like EnB probably has (I don't know if it does or not right now at this moment). Mind you, for all but one of the things I've done, my roommate did the networking code on them. My own networking code is... well, I just haven't done it in a while, my roommate's much better at it and it's saved us a lot of time just to let eachother handle the stuff we're each better at.

Doing a client is not quite as much work as doing a server. The server is authoritative so it has a more of a job to do. The client doesn't have to think about very much, it just does what the server tells it to do. I'm not meaning to say that clients are trivial. Far from it. If it was just my roommate and I working on it, I honestly wouldn't expect to have anything to show for at least a year. Even then, we're frequently having to scramble on paying projects so we can get the rent paid. I suppose after getting basic login and explore stuff in, I could put up a donation thingie so we could possibly be able to afford to spend more time working on it. I don't know, just me thinking outloud here, nothing definite.

[quote name='C Del' timestamp='1327633738' post='52444']
Nice, didn't know they have mono specifically for android. I'm going to have to look into that.
[/quote]

I don't know if there is Mono for Android. What I do know is that Unity has a special license for Mono which allows them to port it to any platform they want without having to open source their changes. So there is Unity for Android. I don't know about Mono proper for Android.

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1327645329' post='52466']
running through a web client is kinda cheating, although I have to confess I have seen some good stuff running through Unity. I just don't think it's quite got the same energy as a well written native C++ engine.

But, like Cdel was saying - I guess if you just want something working quickly, C# is pretty hard to beat.
[/quote]

Yeah. A C++ client would definitely be better. But like you and CDel have said, it would take longer. The cool thing about Unity, though, is that it actually very highly optimized. The rendering engine doesn't have to call out from managed code to draw the 3D graphics, so you don't have the whole managed/unmanaged overhead. There are a few cases where you can hit that overhead, but there are ways to code around it if you know where they are. Namely it has to do with accessing any data that would be in the unmanaged part of the engine. For instance, accessing certain members of classes in the UnityEngine name space, it's better to copy the value, work with that value, and then feed that value back in than it is to constantly reference it due to the managed/unmanaged overhead involved.

Of course doing it in Unity has a few more things going for it that doing it from scratch in C++ doesn't. With Unity, we'd already have a fully optimized 3d engine complete with a ton of high profile middleware backing it up. It'd be a lot easier to maintain and thus create totally new content where needed.

Done right, Unity games are almost as fast as native at most things. And any way it goes, we can certainly blow away the regular client using Unity.

ALL of that said...
I'd like to say that this is all just speculation on my part. I'm far more intent on helping out with the server right now. There's no sense in me diving into making a new client until I know more about how the game works.

[Tradermagoo [GrA]]

Has anyone ever told programers you guys are nucking futz... Keep up the good work I think =]0-O[=

[C Del[IS]]

[quote name='Tradermagoo' timestamp='1327682234' post='52513']
Has anyone ever told programers you guys are nucking futz... Keep up the good work I think =]0-O[=
[/quote]
Every day of our lives.

Also, Mouse: I'm not sure if you saw my previous comment, but I have a good working knowledge of the EnB packet structure, I can at least get from startup through login network-wise, and I would be willing to help out. I would like to go into video game programming in a year and a half when I'm done with college, so this would be good experience for me to have.