TS vs JE

[virpyre]

renamed topic...

[Terrell [BT]]

Scouts don't get L9 shields, they get L9 Devices and Engines, L8 Reactors & Sheilds. At this time they also get Navigate equal to the JE, L7. Scouts also get L5 Scan, and since they're Explorers, they get a base scan range of 5.0. With Max Scan Scout's scan range is equal to Sentinel's, before buffs, and both are second only to the JE in scan range (before buffs).

[bondct]

build engines is a waste, totally redundant and not needed in the game... and I cant help but feeling they are gonna be really wimpy and unloved end game with L8 shields... they need to bring more to the party than hull patch and js..

I want to say that their navigate should increase group speed... but that is more of a small group farming skill than a raid skill...

[Terrell [BT]]

build engines is a waste, totally redundant and not needed in the game... and I cant help but feeling they are gonna be really wimpy and unloved end game with L8 shields... they need to bring more to the party than hull patch and js..

I want to say that their navigate should increase group speed... but that is more of a small group farming skill than a raid skill...

I always saw Navigate as more of a getting out of danger skill, both on the JE and the TE (Scout) and as a skill for faster travel. L6 Navigate plus L9 Laz @ 200% quality, means nearly instant warp engage/recovery times. TE still needs to have their Afterburn skill implemented, and probably 1 other skill. I don't think that a Scout would be unloved at all. It has firepower equal to the TT, can kite even better with L7 Navigate, as well as the as of yet implemented Afterburn skill. Scout also has the most options in devices, being able to use both Jenquai & Progen devices, such as a device sold at Jove's that is an activatable recharge reactor device. Said device can be used by the JE and TE, because it's Progen Restricted, Explorers Only.

Explorers (JE, PE, and TE) can also debuff Explosive with one of the Crimson Megahurtz (JE & TE can also debuff plasma with Chim & Rada respectively), if they max their scan skill, they can not only detect cloaked objects, they can reveal them to all group members. A raid where people need to be able to see cloaked, makes explorer classes more wanted (especially if they make see cloaked devices rare, and require those without the scan skill to group with an explorer or Jenquai to see cloaked).

IMO with the Scout (the Seeker too) what equipment and skills they can bring to the battle will determine how loved/unloved they are. Having a cool looking ship doesn't hurt either. The Privateer, OTOH, is already viable exactly the way he is, but still should get a unique skill or two.

[bvdave]

I think they should go back to the 3 weapon slots (progen should be the only class with the extra slot) they allready have some fantastic speed and scanning and the ability to use all the best explorer devices, id be cool with a skill or bonus that allows them to buff group combat speed however to go with the speed they are to have and bring it to the group.

[Tyran]

I think they should go back to the 3 weapon slots (progen should be the only class with the extra slot)

This is moot argumentation.

The actual effect on the game is what is important.

What will 3 over 4 weapon slots mean for the TS?

It means it does more basic DPS than a JE, so JE's beware!

At the moment the TS has very little going for it.

It has a currently useless build skill (build engines)

It adds little to the group in the form of buffs, damage or group bonus.

It has no edge over JE with mining other than being better at killing pop roid mobs.

The best thing about the TS is it looks good.

[Terrell [BT]]

Among Explorers each has an advantage of some sort, but the JE being the pure Explorer should be the best miner.

Scout is the fastest explorer. They are the only explorer to get L9 engines, they also get L7 Navigate, and when it's implemented L7 Afterburn. (whomever opens the rock first gets it's contents) Scouts also get better prices on vendored loot/ore than the other explorers due to having the Negotiate skill. Scouts also have larger cargo holds than Sentinels and Explorers, so they can mine and carry back to sell more different types of ores, per trip than the other 2 explorers. Scouts can also refine for less money with Negotiate. They bring Combat speed as a buff to grouping. Some Scout only devices that are activatable combat speed buffs would likely be a welcome addition to the lines of available equipment. They can use the Jenquai device that gives an activatable reactor recharge buff (Progen Restricted, Explorers Only). Scout can build devices from all 3 races, and can do so with Negotiate to reduce the price. Only the TT is a better device builder, JT can beat Scout on Terran & Jenquai devices, but cannot compete in Progen ones.

Explorer has biggest scan range, is hardest for mobs to detect (lower base sig, cloaking, Jen engines having low sigs in most cases), and has best reactor power (only explorer with L9 reactors). They bring reactor recharge as a group bonus, and have plenty of devices to buff groupmate's reactors.

Sentinel is best able to fight off orefield guardian mobs among the explorers. They also have what's arguably the most powerful skill in the game, Menace.

All explorers can use the GETCo Animal Skin devices to buff various deflects.

[kyrm347]

IMHO regardless of what the original Devs had in mind for Mining, any miner is only as good as it's cargohold and it's speed. The JE's and the PS's cargos are smaller than the TS, so in my book TS wins. Sure when in group cargohold size deosn't matter, but when mining solo time spent flying to unload is time wasted. Flying quickly between Roids is also a must. For me the size of the TS's cargohold and it's speed are it's biggest advantages over the other Scouts.

[Tyran]

IMHO regardless of what the original Devs had in mind for Mining, any miner is only as good as it's cargohold and it's speed. The JE's and the PS's cargos are smaller than the TS, so in my book TS wins. Sure when in group cargohold size deosn't matter, but when mining solo time spent flying to unload is time wasted. Flying quickly between Roids is also a must. For me the size of the TS's cargohold and it's speed are it's biggest advantages over the other Scouts.

There's the increased hold-size of the scout versus something like Wormhole of the JE.

Obviously youre getting around much quicker from place to place with wormhole.

And cherry pickers don't really care too much about hold size.

I guess the only advantage is that you don't need to cherrypick so much with the TS as with the JE/PS

But for speed I doubt anything can get around like a JE.

[Stoop]

There's the increased hold-size of the scout versus something like Wormhole of the JE.

Obviously youre getting around much quicker from place to place with wormhole.

And cherry pickers don't really care too much about hold size.

I guess the only advantage is that you don't need to cherrypick so much with the TS as with the JE/PS

But for speed I doubt anything can get around like a JE.

out of curiosity, what are you considering cherrypicking, searching a minefield for just one ore and mining just that ore, or are you including searching a minefield for one ore and emptying whatever roids you find with that ore in them? I admit to being guilty of the second example lately while looking for Osirium for (what appears to be) a bugged mission. BTW I should mention that if you stick with fields that contain only one type of resource (rocks, glowing rocks, crystals, or clouds) JEs and possibly PSs shouldn't run out of cargo space, it's the mixed fields I have trouble with on my JE.

[Terrell [BT]]

When it's flying from asteroid to asteroid wormhole doesn't matter speed (thrust or warp), is what wins. Warping between rocks, JE and TE (scout) are equal on engage time, but TE can warp between rocks faster than JE. There aren't any asteroid fields around any of the wefts. We as JEs are faster than the Sentinel, and slower than the Scout. Which is how it should be given Terran's racial strength being engines (L9 engines are Terran Only), Progen's racial weakness being engines, and Jenquai in the middle. Cherrypicking, is considered by many miners to be bad behaviour, because if you only take the best ores out of an asteroid, it doesn't usually despawn (leaving fields full of the crappier ores for the next explorer that comes along). Asteroid clear XP bonuses, and field clear XP bonuses are there to discourage cherrypicking.

JE's wormhole skill is an advantage for long distance travel. Travel from one sector to another, whenever teleporting to a weft would shorten the trip. It has no bearing on the abilty to mine, other than, in some circumstances shortening the trip to or from the field. It's often the case though that there is a base closer to the orefield than the nearest weft, like mining in Cygni (great orefields there in Live), BBW, The asteroid navs in Jupiter (closer to Jove's Fury, than the weft there), Most of Aragoth, with the exception of the orefields in VT just to name a few examples. Wormhole is most useful for those people who need to go to The Valkyrie Twins, and places nearby (as a means for JE to make a little extra money).

[kyrm347]

In regards to cherry picking Roids...

I don't do it, period. It is better for yourself and all other Players to strip a field once you've worked it to allow the Roids to respawn full. This is one issue I will say something about if I see a Miner doing it ingame... and I will probably finish what he started and strip the field. So if you are clearing whole fields at a time like I do then size of cargohold and sub-warp speed are important.

As for using Wormhole... I don't use it if there is anything in my cargohold and that includes Ore. I remember from the old days screwing up alot of things in my JE's hold because someone would ask for a WH and I would forget to check my hold.

So if you are a Miner primarily, Wormhole can be useful to get to your favorite Mining spot but that is about all. I generally stay in one System at a time so WH is of limited use to me. As great as JE is I think TS is better if you disregard WH. As for it being a money maker, yes in Live WH skill was but we don't have the player population here to count on it as a reliable income source like we did years ago. My JE back then would provide WH's for tips alone and I had enough credits whenever I needed new gear.

I have run out of room on my lvl 37 JE in a crystal field due to there being more than two levels of crystals in the field. I wish we could install a device that only Explorers could use to boost cargohold size.. a device that could only be used for Ore, but I doubt if the coding is even possible with the way item management works in EnB.

Food for thought in regards to Terran Scouts final skill... something do do with Mining speed or a Shield regen skill.

[Marco[IS]]

You do realize that the scout is getting two skills added. Both have been mentioned on the forum many times, well old forum anyway.

Afterburn and NullFactor

- Marco

[Tyran]

It's often the case though that there is a base closer to the orefield than the nearest weft, like mining in Cygni (great orefields there in Live), BBW, The asteroid navs in Jupiter (closer to Jove's Fury, than the weft there), Most of Aragoth, with the exception of the orefields in VT just to name a few examples. Wormhole is most useful for those people who need to go to The Valkyrie Twins, and places nearby (as a means for JE to make a little extra money).

Those fields during live should be disregarded, on the old forum a dev had already said that that those highly rich mine fields (like the ones in cygni) won't be in the emulator.

Which is good given that these orefields indeed mean that you don't need to leave the sector, ever.

[Terrell [BT]]

Those fields during live should be disregarded, on the old forum a dev had already said that that those highly rich mine fields (like the ones in cygni) won't be in the emulator.

Which is good given that these orefields indeed mean that you don't need to leave the sector, ever.

Still my point stands, wormhole has no bearing on a JE's ablity to mine, beyond shortening time to the orefield, in some cases.

Our advantage is the bigger reactors, better scanners, and the greater ability to avoid being seen by orefield guardians.

[bondct]

You do realize that the scout is getting two skills added. Both have been mentioned on the forum many times, well old forum anyway.

Afterburn and NullFactor

- Marco

i justt noticed that on the char planner... please do tell what they are supposed to do... and as for mining the only thing that TS is lacking to be the ultimate miner is sig, since devs invinted angry mobs to all the fields... but once ur at max level, with max level devices... I think its gonna be interesting to see who is the better miner... I can recall plenty of times racing from roid to roid for certain ores that only spawn in certain roids...

[Tyran]

Still my point stands, wormhole has no bearing on a JE's ablity to mine, beyond shortening time to the orefield, in some cases.

Time saved by WH is a lot. Think of those isolated places with secret ore fields where the JE can travel to and from much easier due to WH.

I see two types of mining strategies here (field clearing & precious roid hunting) and will try to explain how WH and cargo hold size affects them:

When clearing fields:

- An increased cargohold size allows you to take several more ores to the station.

When clearing fields inevitably you start needing to space ores at one point.

But since most ores were only vendor food spacing them is not really a big deal.

So the cargo hold size does not do much else than give you a dismal amount of extra exp and cash once the field is cleared.

- WH allows you to get to a given field quicker ofcourse, but since travelling is done more in the other mining strategy it is significantly more useful there.

When focusing only on "precious roids" and ruined hulks:

- Cargo hold size does not matter as you are only gathering a limited amount of ores/equipment.

- Due to Wormhole the speed at which a JE will "do it's round" and check for precious roids in the fields it knows is much faster.

Sure a TS can get a taxi from time to time, but it cannot do that when in the middle of an ore field in cooper, nifleheim cloud, or antares just to name a few rather remote locations.

One could conclude the JE is much more efficient at focusing on the more valuable ores due to WH.

It all depends what mining strategy you like, if you prefer ruined hulks and ammo ore hunting then by all means the JE is a pure win.

When clearing fields however, there is no significant difference.

[Terrell [BT]]

Time saved by WH is a lot. Think of those isolated places with secret ore fields where the JE can travel to and from much easier due to WH.

Yeah don't disagree that wh saves time in going to the field or back if you have to go to F7, but once you're there, you're better off staying longer and mining more. If you simply need to go to the nearest base and sell vendor food, then that really depends on where in the galaxy you are.

I see two types of mining strategies here (field clearing & precious roid hunting) and will try to explain how WH and cargo hold size affects them:

When clearing fields:

- An increased cargohold size allows you to take several more ores to the station.

When clearing fields inevitably you start needing to space ores at one point.

But since most ores were only vendor food spacing them is not really a big deal.

So the cargo hold size does not do much else than give you a dismal amount of extra exp and cash once the field is cleared.

That extra cargo space especially when combined with the Scout's L5 Negotiate skill over the long run will result in significantly more income. Advantage Scout.

Tyran said:

- WH allows you to get to a given field quicker ofcourse, but since travelling is done more in the other mining strategy it is significantly more useful there.

When focusing only on "precious roids" and ruined hulks:

- Cargo hold size does not matter as you are only gathering a limited amount of ores/equipment.

- Due to Wormhole the speed at which a JE will "do it's round" and check for precious roids in the fields it knows is much faster.

Sure a TS can get a taxi from time to time, but it cannot do that when in the middle of an ore field in cooper, nifleheim cloud, or antares just to name a few rather remote locations.

One could conclude the JE is much more efficient at focusing on the more valuable ores due to WH.

It all depends what mining strategy you like, if you prefer ruined hulks and ammo ore hunting then by all means the JE is a pure win.

When clearing fields however, there is no significant difference.

My response

If you're looking for specific ores, please do the other miners the courtesy of emptying any roids you take from, quickens respawn time for the next miner. If you're focusing on Ammo ores, you can find many of them in Glenn, and sell them in F7 next door, if you're looking elsewhere you have the option (say some remote place like Antares frontier) to store your ore in your vault, until you're ready to go to F7 to sell. You simply have to plan your trips for maximum efficency or register at F7, and find a JW to summon you back there. You don't necessarily have to take more trips. Nif is 2 sectors away from the nearest base (Trader's Fort & Arx Ymir). Antares has a base in it for those ores you wish to sell later while vendor food can be sold 2 sectors away in Dahin Planet. Cooper you'll need a long trip from, unless you have good RD, then it's Grissom, followed by BBW, to QAR.

Mods, may we please have more than 2 blocks of quoted text per post? Kinda no point in multiquote feature with number of quotes per post so few.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Afterburn will be an percentage based increase to speed, maneuverability, and a (very small) avoidance to damage. Nullfactor field is very similar to the JE Environment shield with the exception that it works along the lines of reconfiguring your reactor, you'll lose a percentage of your maximum for the duration, and get a slightly increased recharge, and the field to protect you is generated. It will grant some nullification towards different environmental effects. Hence the way it was named.

[mistergreen]

Afterburn will be an percentage based increase to speed, maneuverability, and a (very small) avoidance to damage. Nullfactor field is very similar to the JE Environment shield with the exception that it works along the lines of reconfiguring your reactor, you'll lose a percentage of your maximum for the duration, and get a slightly increased recharge, and the field to protect you is generated. It will grant some nullification towards different environmental effects. Hence the way it was named.

You make it sound like it's a passive and not a GTFO button push like a fold space but leaving a dust trail instead of just warping out. Though that would be silly to have 2 speed passives with Navigation and then Afterburn.

And nullfactor sounds like a blessing in disguise as it will allow us to take high cap low recharge reactors and make them more useful to us, thereby negating part of our energy problem. Add that to a Warrior's Heart Gamma lvl 8 reactor with shunt Shields to reactor to really boost the recharge.

[virpyre]

I'm going to have to delete this an re-post it, if you're going to talk about other classes please make another topic, this it just a w.i.p guide for new players tips about this class are welcome.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

You make it sound like it's a passive and not a GTFO button push like a fold space but leaving a dust trail instead of just warping out. Though that would be silly to have 2 speed passives with Navigation and then Afterburn.

And nullfactor sounds like a blessing in disguise as it will allow us to take high cap low recharge reactors and make them more useful to us, thereby negating part of our energy problem. Add that to a Warrior's Heart Gamma lvl 8 reactor with shunt Shields to reactor to really boost the recharge.

Because it is. It's not a huge boost to speed, it's percentage based. Nullfactor well, it'll be adjusted, reactor will always be your weakest overall, but we'll see what can be done.

[kyrm347]

Some interesting points so far concerning both the TS and JE. I have much to think about after reading the posts so far. Sorry if I helped in derailing the New Player Guide, I was trying to help point of the benefits of the Terran Scout as I have experienced them.

My concern for using Wormhole while transporting Ore is this: isn't it intended for all cargo to take damage (except quest)if in a ship that goes thru a Je's Wormhole? If so wouldn't this also affect the quality of Ores at some point? I haven't seen any damage yet to Ore I took thru one but I have *assumed* the damage warning would be real at some point.

I knew TS would be getting Afterburner skill (can't wait for this), but I did not know about Nullfactor (not sure what this is, time to search).

[mistergreen]

Worm hole only did damage to trade goods so they couldn't cheat and do runs faster then a TT could and get full credit. When you became died there was a chance to damage everything in your cargo and a chance to lose ores. I remember this discussion on the old ebportal boards.

With afterburn being a passive then it's really named wrong as it just now seems to be a mod to one's ship to give it better output constantly but the name really implies a burst of NOS. (yes I know rehashed the same thing I said earlier but differently)

Nullfactor field will allow us to use different devices, no need to carry a mono, stien/phoenix. We can change them out for better scan boost or deflects for those pesky popmobs.

As for which race is better at mining it should come down to 2 things, cargo size and sell/refine prices. Being that you are entering a market the Terran should come out ahead in the selling but JE could come out on the cargo aspect as they have no need for ammo. Carrying just 1 stack around in your launchers may not suffice. Right now you can't even compare reactor as my scout has equipped for mining lvl 6 harpy, sculptor, RR+, Steinguard's Embrace, Petit-Dhamler reactor and I'm pulling lvl 9 ores with ease. I can easily strip a mine field and come back for more. There just isn't any field big and safe enough for me to sit contently like I did in Inverness pulling 4-6 ores.

[garblesoup]

My concern for using Wormhole while transporting Ore is this: isn't it intended for all cargo to take damage (except quest)if in a ship that goes thru a Je's Wormhole?

Nope, only Trade Goods.