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Loot stealing (sort of) Devs please read

  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. Should loot have a higher timer.

    • No. let it be a free for all no matter what.
      6
    • Yes. give me a chance to loot my own kills.
      11


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Hmmm, maybe i did something wrong in the past 150 levels, but just explain me how it would be possible to Ninja-loot.....

As i tried very often, it isn't possible to ninja-loot a corpse, or as i said above, i did something badly wrong.

Ninja-looting is to loot a corpse in a cloaked state and not your own kill. Means exactly hidden from all to loot a corpse from other players..

Right now as i tried, it's just possible in cloaked state if you got the kill for the mob.

You can't prospect cloaked, and you can't loot if the corpse is not open to anyone or your own kill.

If the cloaked player is in your group and has loot rights, yes then it's possible to loot cloaked. But then it isn't ninja-looting.

Is there a something i missed at my loot skills? .... :)

As the time comes and the loot is open to anyone there is no ninja looting anymore. A very bad behavior yes, but no ninja-looting.

So i would say just the time is to short. ;)

But one thing yet, don't expect to kill a whole spawn and then to loot all your corpses. That's just not the way it should go. ;)

greets

Hexergirl

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I have to weigh in here and say just because the system allows something does not always mean it is AOK! If that were the case I want the exploit bugs I reported put back in the system let me do it and I want to exploit them again. I think while we are testing all things should be reported: looting someone else’s kills is almost as bad as kill stealing imo.

Important distinction: just because the system allows something does not always mean its AOK, however, it does mean you shouldn't get punished for it. I.E. Back in the first stress test, way before I was on staff, I used to exploit the infinite negative ammo stack bug to jack my trade level and credits way up. I'm sure we've all run into sweet bugs like that, and had a little fun before reporting it. That wasn't fair to players who didn't know about the bug, as I was able to get 10 TLs in a matter of minutes, but this is a stress test and these are not permanent characters, so it isn't a huge deal. The character I exploited that bug with and all his credits died long, long ago. My point is that it might not be right or fair to do, but it's not worth punishment. If the system lets you do it (and you haven't modified/hacked the system, which is its own serious offense), you shouldn't be punished.

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Important distinction: just because the system allows something does not always mean its AOK, however, it does mean you shouldn't get punished for it. I.E. Back in the first stress test, way before I was on staff, I used to exploit the infinite negative ammo stack bug to jack my trade level and credits way up. I'm sure we've all run into sweet bugs like that, and had a little fun before reporting it. That wasn't fair to players who didn't know about the bug, as I was able to get 10 TLs in a matter of minutes, but this is a stress test and these are not permanent characters, so it isn't a huge deal. The character I exploited that bug with and all his credits died long, long ago. My point is that it might not be right or fair to do, but it's not worth punishment. If the system lets you do it (and you haven't modified/hacked the system, which is its own serious offense), you shouldn't be punished.

Ok, I agree there should be no punishment for it but.... a barrage of Pumkin chucker on the offending party seems in order. And if one opens a kill and can't get to it for whatever reason does that allow others to loot it? I often in an area that I don't want to loot a kill open it then close it. I thought that released the owner rights on that kill. It still would be "nice" to ask if it is Ok to loot other's kills.

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Obviously this is an instance where the rule wasn't worded for every loophole, if the loot timer has expired, the loot is fair game. If you're fighting too hard and too fast, it's time to move off the spawn and pull the mobs to you rather than camping on top of the spawn point. There's a reason for the JD Summon skill, after all.

When I wrote the rules and regulations, here are the things I had in mind in terms of "ninja" or "poach" looting: (courtesy of the definition of ninja looting off Wikipedia)

  • Looting specific items off enemies that the player's own party defeated before the party has formally decided who should do so, or in direct contradiction to a decision that someone else should loot.
  • Consistently looting all defeated enemies at the earliest possible moment, thus precluding any other party member from receiving any treasure, even when nothing special is to be had. (This is also known as "loot whoring".)
  • Looting items that the player cannot use for the sole purpose of selling it. Sometimes this may be discovered after the fact if that same item (through an in-game trade system, such as the Auction House in World of Warcraft) is later found to be for sale by the player who lied about needing it. This may also occur by misuse of the in-game loot distribution system, by misleading or confusing loot rules, or simply by a lack of established loot rules. Taking advantage of these last two situations is often thought of as a mild offense and may be overlooked as carelessness or poor planning.

Whereas sitting around scavenging loot that was left behind until the timer expired should not be an offense. I suppose it's time for a mild amendment to the rules to clarify that point.

What this was meant to prevent is someone sitting cloaked and hijacking rare loot while a raid or larger group is still rolling for rights, such as happened in the live game fairly frequently. I watched many a Smiter's Fury and Heart of the Dark One get snatched off the Tada-O raid when I played. Whether it be by someone running through the area, or someone under the guise of a group cloak sitting next to the mobs.

In short, if you're letting the timer expire, then the player taking "your" loot is not doing so illegally because they are neither exploiting a bug to do so, nor are they somehow subverting your control, the period where the loot is "yours" has expired by right and anyone is then entitled to the loot box because you didn't claim it. You have a specified time period to loot, and you should do so, even if it's hot and heavy. Looting does not interrupt you long enough for the dps difference to matter unless you find the rare corpse that has a shipload of loot. It is unrealistic to claim otherwise, even in a boss fight.

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Those mostly seem to be issues of group coordination. If someone is stealing your loot, kick 'em out of the group. Otherwise, you just didn't loot fast enough. You could always have one person loot everything and distribute it later. Again, if that person screws you, you can punish them yourself by ostracizing them from the community. Respectfully, I think the rule should be removed.

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Those mostly seem to be issues of group coordination. If someone is stealing your loot, kick 'em out of the group. Otherwise, you just didn't loot fast enough. You could always have one person loot everything and distribute it later. Again, if that person screws you, you can punish them yourself by ostracizing them from the community. Respectfully, I think the rule should be removed.

Yes, for the most part I agree, but in cases like I mention where you saw group cloaked people lootgrabbing during live, this is obvious, there were times that there could be up to 30 different folks at one of those raids, it could take longer than the timer. I think Tienbau has put forth the best solution, extending timers for rare items solves the problem without the statement needing to be in the Code of Conduct. The timer is the mechanic, and it's there because people sometimes pass on loot, rather than have the corpse remain, if you're not going to take it, it should be available to someone else. Waste not that which you want not, you know, even if it is "yours". :)

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Kyp, thank you for clarifying the "ninja-looting" rule.

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This all pretty much started with hopes of upping the timer slightly on normal loot as well, i hope it is considered.

Some spawn areas do not give you the time to sit and loot, so its not like you (the player)are leaving it behind.

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This all pretty much started with hopes of upping the timer slightly on normal loot as well, i hope it is considered.

Some spawn areas do not give you the time to sit and loot, so its not like you (the player)are leaving it behind.

Well upping the timer would be a good idea but at the cost of server stablity I am not really sure. As it sits the Timer is 3minutes 30second (roughly) and then popping 1 minute to 1 minute 30 second after that. I have ran a few guild runs in the BOWL from time to time and the way I see it if you cant loot a corpse in 3minute 30second what makes you think your going to loot it in another minute before it pops. So open loot is all fair game. Every Raid I run I tell the lowbee ... dont do anything But loot and Run when I tell ya (and with Apoc Behind me that doesn't happen to that often LOL). Maybe upping the timer slightly to 5minutes locked and 2 minutes free wouldnt be that bad.

BTW and not accuse anyone of crying about loot (knowing that Jam just place a suggestion to change the timer not to flame the looter) ... but being such a small group of people, there is alot to go around, you have to look at it this way. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

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BTW and not accuse anyone of crying about loot (knowing that Jam just place a suggestion to change the timer not to flame the looter) ... but being such a small group of people, there is alot to go around, you have to look at it this way. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

Actually , you pretty much are accusing but by saying you are not. your comment was not needed for any other reason but to point out your true

intention, or you would not of written it. its typical of people from our old server ( Andromeda )

My position is as follows, lets have the folks go fight, kill and loot there own.

If you are Ok. with people grabbing the loot when you are in a big spawn, announce that your kills are free for all when you are in the bowl. Let

people loot form you ;)

Ether way , hopefully the loot timer for non epic kills gets jacked up slightly and for epic / bosses put it back

the way it was in live .

This has been a nice discussion and I look forward to the next suggestion or dig :)

~ You only have one life to live, Live it well.

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Get the "See Cloaked" skill working for mobs and players.

Would solve So many problems.

Also, I vote that the timers be left alone, except on named/boss mobs.

On those mobs, the corpse could be locked for 4 minutes, except to the killing group,

even after inspecting the loot. This way everyone in the group has a chance to get what they are after

After the 4 minute window, the corpse is unlocked to anyone. The corpse would pop after 5 minutes.

Also, Progens are scum. Nuff said.

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Well since the in game timer is already in place and if you don't loot the corpses in that amount of time then the loot is open for anyone.....

While I don't agree with taking another's persons loot without asking. ( it is just common decency to ask that person permission )

The timer if i'm correct was initially put in, in live, to give folks a chance to loot them without the ninja's jumping in and stealing their loot when killing large amounts of mobs especially for like the shield inversion skill etc.

But it also created alot of lag when folks would have like 200+ corpses so the original devs found a compromised time limit for the corpses if you didn't grab your loot in that time then it was free for all.

I honestly think the time limit is fine the way it is.

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My only reason for looting which the OP had disingenuously decided to leave out, is that the loot was expiring. I sat for ten minutes watching (frothing mouth admitedly) as your group sat on a perpetual spawn and just killed, killed, killed. Not once did your group send a person to loot, not once did you stop the fighting to loot. You simply let the loot expire. That in its very essence is permission granted to loot your corpses. Protocol and manners aside, what's the difference I ask? Ego I'm thinking?

Only after you observed someone taking your expiring loot did you cry foul. This to me shows this has less to do with your ability to loot and more like a 5 year old, mad cause he has to share his blocks, even though he has all the blocks in his corner. I'm not trying to spark a drama filled session of flaming but if you are going to open the pandoras box, please be 100% transparent about the scenario and stop playing the victim.

It's simple, you didn't loot, I took it for you. Funny thing is, I traded it back to your Merchant Prince in group, so you didn't lose any items... lol. If ya had a lick of common sense about ya, you'd realize the loot trading is ten times more valuable than the CL xp, but I digress.

Edited by Psio
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My only reason for looting which the OP had disingenuously decided to leave out, is that the loot was expiring. I sat for ten minutes watching (frothing mouth admitedly) as your group sat on a perpetual spawn and just killed, killed, killed. Not once did your group send a person to loot, not once did you stop the fighting to loot. You simply let the loot expire. That in its very essence is permission granted to loot your corpses. Protocol and manners aside, what's the difference I ask? Ego I'm thinking?

Only after you observed someone taking your expiring loot did you cry foul. This to me shows this has less to do with your ability to loot and more like a 5 year old, mad cause he has to share his blocks, even though he has all the blocks in his corner. I'm not trying to spark a drama filled session of flaming but if you are going to open the pandoras box, please be 100% transparent about the scenario and stop playing the victim.

It's simple, you didn't loot, I took it for you. Funny thing is, I traded it back to your Merchant Prince in group, so you didn't lose any items... lol. If ya had a lick of common sense about ya, you'd realize the loot trading is ten times more valuable than the CL xp, but I digress.

I'm not sure why you feel you have to pop back in to rub it in. I think you got the support you were looking for from the Devs.

I still think that Lack of use on my part does NOT mean ownership on your part.

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Considering the flaming I've taken in open Market Channel chat over this and from the admonishment I received from the GM I'm entitled to at a minimum give the other side of the story instead of the unethical, loot stealing greiver some people have portrayed me as.

I said my part, I consider it closed and thank the GMs for the open discussion and logical reasoning that took place in this thread. I'm happy this topic was discussed and a conclusion was made, isn't this part of the stress test process anyway? I'll sit in the corner and keep my mouth shut now if it pleases you Mimir.

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Considering the flaming I've taken in open Market Channel chat over this and from the admonishment I received from the GM I'm entitled to at a minimum give the other side of the story instead of the unethical, loot stealing greiver some people have portrayed me as.

I said my part, I consider it closed and thank the GMs for the open discussion and logical reasoning that took place in this thread. I'm happy this topic was discussed and a conclusion was made, isn't this part of the stress test process anyway? I'll sit in the corner and keep my mouth shut now if it pleases you Mimir.

Yes, thank you :)

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That in its very essence is permission granted to loot your corpses.

Permission is only granted when given. Anything else is assumed permission, and you know what happens when you assume.

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When I was around Lvl 80ish I went into the bowl, would find a group killing and ask them if they minded if I looted what they left behind. I would also ask if there was anything specifically that they did not want me to loot due to the lock timer running out and groups still being in combat. I only ever had one issue and that was when i asked the group leader, who said yes, then another group member was unaware of what he said and sent me a tell rather upset about looting. After he/she found out the grp leader already said yes this person said "just dont loot beams, thats why im here". Show some courtesy to the group that is doing the work and they are more likely to NOT have an issue with you gettin some free trade xp off their work.

And I can understand after having been in a few groups in FB that it is very difficult to loot and contribute damage. A lot of stuff despawns even when you are actively trying to loot if you are taking multiple mobs at once and nonstop. I personally don't think it should be an issue if the person asks and is given permission. If given permission, it isn't stealing. If a timer runs out and makes it open loot, it technically isn't stealing. If it violates the tos, don't make them open lootable.

A lot of folks have offered good suggestions. Increase timers in certain areas, let the group decide how long the timer is/who can loot, etc.

I would suggest making tractor beams work the way mining beams work, except with one alteration(if coding is possible). Let me loot one after another without having to wait for the items to get to my ship. Often times you are moving and/or move out of range to loot the next item. Make base tractor speed much faster and farther(some of us only have 3 dev slots, should my looting ability be based on my device slots available? Won't even get into cargo space issues). I would say make your tractor beam at least faster than your combat speed. Maybe making it engine dependant isn't fair? Letting me loot everything off of a hulk at once.. or click click click on the items i want and not having to wait for it to reach me would be nice. I think altering the way we loot would fix a lot of the stuff despawning issues that folks have, more than extending timers would.

I am also for extending the loot timers on high spawn rate areas though if faster looting isnt possible. Either that or when the loot is awarded to a group member it just pops into your hold. If no space the stackable items pop into your hold and any you have room for, the other stuff stays until u can make room for it. I know folks would have issue with this for spacing items, so make unique/non trades exempt from this. The only problem with extending the timers is that if you are killing nonstop, having the stuff float around longer will not help you to loot it any better, will just have a clusterf*ck of hulks around you, not to mention the stuff nobody loots cuz its not high-quantity stacks.. well everyone except those F'n terrans. :)

Just some ideas to add to the already good ones mentioned.

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Permission is only granted when given.  Anything else is assumed permission, and you know what happens when you assume.

Yes, permission is given if the timer is open for all, not assumed.

There is and was in live a time where you needed permissions and where it was open for all.

Why a working system changing:);)

You know the sentence: Never touch a running system;);)

It's just a nice behavior if it is asked for an ok to loot after the corpse is open for all;);)

But as i already said, you can't expect that all your corpses being untouched if you kill 20 mobs first before you start to loot.

greets

Hexergirl

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The topic is now up to dev consideration and is resolved as far as this discussion is concerned. Considering there isn't much left to do here than argue, I'm going to close the thread.

Play nice, be courteous, and let the little things go and we'll all live in peace.:)

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