Jump to content
Ryle

Hellbore Refire Suggestion

Recommended Posts

The hellbore is a rather staple missile weapon for the plasma using terran community. It is the only high level plasma debuff a TT or TS can get, and one of only two a TE can get (the other being the bullywere eye, which uses a device slot).

The problem with the HB is its laughable refire rate. At around 20 seconds the weapon fires once for every 3-4 volleys of every other level 9 ML in the game, including the Smiters Wrath and the Black Caster.

The Hellbore Torpedo's damage isnt even that high. 1339 PM base damage. The database shows the HB has a DPS of about 45... which is equivalent to a level 5 or 6 ML, not something youd get from a raid. Most level 9 MLs are around 120-150DPS with some of the PM ones hitting 175 or so. This makes the hellbores DPS about 1/4 of any other level 9 ML.

So essentially all the refire rate does is penalize a terran for using plasma based ammunition.

I propose one of three ideas.

1. Adjust the Hellbores refire rate to be 1/2 of what it is currently. I.E a 100 percent weapon would have a refire around 10-11 seconds.

2. Make the weapon manu so a 200 percent version would have the 10-11 second refire.

3. Increase the damage of the hellbore torpedo to roughly 4000.

I see no reason this would be overpowered. It merely evens up the DPS and debuff a terran would enjoy with a jenny grouped or using a bully eye, a device a TS and TT cant even use.

Discuss? Edited by Ryle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hellbore uses up vastly more energy per second to fire compared with other launchers. I hate to imagine what an increased fire rate would be like! It would not change how I prefer to use a hellbore anyway -- fire once per mob for the debuff. By the time the reload timer is done, it is ready to debuff the next mob. As you point out the hellbore does not do great DPS but the other launchers benefit from the buffs on the hellbore.

Can any other debuffer in the game debuff targets at up to 8k?

It is a pretty special weapon already and with a proper setup the reload is approximately halved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The HB is actually almost perfect just as it is. First it works just like it did in live so no need to change. Second there is no other weapon/device with a debuff range like it has. Third once the weapon fires once just take it out and install a bile or weapon of your choice and this will increase your DPS. The only problem I see with the HB is maybe decrease its energy useage. If your grouped with a JE/JD you dont need to use the HB anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would suggest making the ammo manufacturable which should up the DPS a little bit... Curruently it is not. My TT is the only Terran that uses the Hellbore. TS uses a Salamander and an Intollerance, and TE uses Bullywere Eye and Sting of the Mordana.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I like the idea of the increase to damage on the HB torpedo.... lets face it, someone was asleep when they decided that. Perhaps making the ammo manufacturable would be a good workaround. That might almost make up for the exceptionally small stack size. This is a major raid ML drop after all, and there are (as discussed above) other plasma debuffers.. Yes the range is impressive, but you don't benefit unless you're a cronic kiter - you Terrans know who you are. :P

PS: As for keeping things 'as they were in live' as someone mentioned... i don't think that is all that important, except as a 'general' rule - rather than something written in stone. The game was never "perfect" and its ours now to improve... Just saying... <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I did the math even with 200% ammo it still only does about 60 DPS at 100%... At 200% the Hellbore would have about a 15 second reload, so with a 200% hellbore and 200% ammo it theoretically would do about 89 DPS. Still much lower than any L9 ML. With full turbo I can see there being some power issues. Edited by Sleven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Hellbores main purpose is plasma debuffer and missile range extender not to mention a bunch of other great buffs, and not DPS. In order to get those great buffs there has to be a penalty somewhere and as it happens, its in its long reload and hi energy use, its only fair IMHO and nothing should be changed.

If anything, it should be, yes, I'm going to use that dreaded word, NERFFED!, and I'll explain why. In reality, you can have a reload time of less then 7 seconds as my TE Hydro has with a 158% hellbore and all the weapon turbos and I'm sure, some lucky Terran with an even better quality, has even less reload time.

Now when the game goes live and theres no way to get anything of that hi quality things should even out and a 12-14 sec reload on a rare and uber weapon like the hellbore should be the norm. Sorry guys, can't have your cake and eat it to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Rezwalker' timestamp='1340899032' post='59740']
The Hellbores main purpose is plasma debuffer and missile range extender not to mention a bunch of other great buffs, and not DPS. In order to get those great buffs there has to be a penalty somewhere and as it happens, its in its long reload and hi energy use, its only fair IMHO and nothing should be changed.

If anything, it should be, yes, I'm going to use that dreaded word, NERFFED!, and I'll explain why. In reality, you can have a reload time of less then 7 seconds as my TE Hydro has with a 158% hellbore and all the weapon turbos and I'm sure, some lucky Terran with an even better quality, has even less reload time.

Now when the game goes live and theres no way to get anything of that hi quality things should even out and a 12-14 sec reload on a rare and uber weapon like the hellbore should be the norm. Sorry guys, can't have your cake and eat it to.
[/quote]

So tell me the low DPS PL or Beam that has all the awesome buffs? Last I checked the raid level PLs and Beams were actually the highest DPS weapons. Show me a single level 9 beam or PL that does 1/4th the damage of the others in the same level.

Made to Live has one of the highest damages of any Beam, and is in fact the highest damage 6 second beam there is. Overall DPS rivals the GoD or Emerald Devastator.

Flechette Omega has one of the highest DPS's in the game, for any weapon. It has some of the best projectile buffs you can get.

If you go by strict DPS, do you even understand what level the hellbore really is?

Level 9 Hellbore: 46.4 DPS @ 100%

Level 6 Type B: 43.44DPS @ 200%



So essentially as a terran you are equipping 3-4 level 9 MLs and a level 6 ML that doubles as a chim or bully eye (which the TE can use) Edited by Ryle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340901411' post='59741']
So tell me the low DPS PL or Beam that has all the awesome buffs? Last I checked the raid level PLs and Beams were actually the highest DPS weapons.
[/quote]


Well you have a point there but it's not possible to make everything of equal value across all race and types, I don't think anyway.


Oh and the other thing I just noticed looking at the DB, there are 20 lvl 9 MLs, 30 lvl 9 beams and 19 lvl 9 PLs so your right, it's not fair in many ways, not all listed are in game yet but yup it is what it is. Are there going to be more weapons in the future? Edited by Rezwalker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glare of Devastation increases range of beams by 105%... its the highest DPS non-manu beam there is, its actually higher than or on par with even the manu ones.

Brimstone Ballista increases projectile range by 50%.... it is in the "second highest" tier of DPS PLs, only the fishbowl weapons are higher.


I mean is having level 6 damage worth a plasma debuff? With the sheer number of debuffers out there, the answer is no. Also dont forget that the hellbore problem was addressed in live, do you remember?

The Dung Flinger was the replacement for the hellbore, and it was a manu weapon with three times the DPS of the HB.

and it had even more buffs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Rezwalker' timestamp='1340902413' post='59742']
Well you have a point there but it's not possible to make everything of equal value across all race and types, I don't think anyway.


Oh and the other thing I just noticed looking at the DB, there are 20 lvl 9 MLs, 30 lvl 9 beams and 19 lvl 9 PLs so your right, it's not fair in many ways, not all listed are in game yet but yup it is what it is. Are there going to be more weapons in the future?
[/quote]

The reason for the beams being more is because of damage type. PLs and MLs can be loaded with different types of ammo, beams cant. So when you factor in that those 20MLs and PLs can each fire 2-3 types of ammo, it really is more like 60MLs/30Beams/60Projectiles give or take.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340901411' post='59741']
So tell me the low DPS PL or Beam that has all the awesome buffs? Last I checked the raid level PLs and Beams were actually the highest DPS weapons. Show me a single level 9 beam or PL that does 1/4th the damage of the others in the same level.
[/quote]
Singularity Mortar projectile, 45.26 dps
Tractor Repulsor beam, 53.67 dps
The other two weapons from the same raid as the Hellbore, all have terrible dps, but great buffs(if they worked). At least the Hellbore's effects work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes the DPS is low on the HB but like I said before use the weapon in a creative way and the DPS can be increased during the fight. I had a Dung Flinger in live and I still used the HB. Its simple and it actually give TE's something to do during long kite fights. Just shot 1 time with the HB and uninstall it and install another weapon. EASY! By the time the HB would have shot again you can install any weapon and increase your DPS overall. Yes I am speaking of fights where there is no JE/JD in group. Overall DPS is what counts NOT each weapons DPS.

Think about this. Even though the Dark matter weapons are not in game yet the DM ML has about 25% critical hit chance at 200% but uses level 8 ammo. The buff makes it solid GOLD for a TE. As for the Dung Flinger I found that it was really not that great of a weapon. You could get way better overall DPS with out using it at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Ryle' timestamp='1340901411' post='59741']
So tell me the low DPS PL or Beam that has all the awesome buffs? Last I checked the raid level PLs and Beams were actually the highest DPS weapons. Show me a single level 9 beam or PL that does 1/4th the damage of the others in the same level.

Made to Live has one of the highest damages of any Beam, and is in fact the highest damage 6 second beam there is. Overall DPS rivals the GoD or Emerald Devastator.

Flechette Omega has one of the highest DPS's in the game, for any weapon. It has some of the best projectile buffs you can get.

If you go by strict DPS, do you even understand what level the hellbore really is?

Level 9 Hellbore: 46.4 DPS @ 100%

Level 6 Type B: 43.44DPS @ 200%



So essentially as a terran you are equipping 3-4 level 9 MLs and a level 6 ML that doubles as a chim or bully eye (which the TE can use)
[/quote]

Ryle, you are comparing apples and pears. The HB shouldnt be compared to other ML's, it's the only ML with a debuff. As for a lvl9 beam or PL that has low DPS and has a debuffer on them try looking at what else drops from the RD base raid, the Tractor repulsor beam and the Singularity mortar are both low DPS'ers, so as far as I am concerned the HB should just stay as is, just like it was in live. In fact I would hope they don't change any of the items that are in game from live, creating new ones is fine like the arippa and such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Actually I think the RD Station was the very first raid introduced in Live. As such the DPS of these weapons when factored in with their debuffs, at the time, was not too bad. However with all the additional raid gear added in Live, and now the EMU dev added gear, the RD station raid in AP's gear is really showing its age when comparing the items that drop from it (look at the devices/reactors too......they are all way behind the curve).

However the three weapons from the RD Base raid all had very......very cool debuffs. I would hate to see these weapons....or their great debuffs.....disappear or be moved onto different/better gear. The debuffs alone made them fun to use even with their very very low dps....however as Live continued the lack of dps caused these weapons to go into vaults and never be used.....which is sad.[list]
[*]Singularity Mortar (PL): increased grav link skill and really anchored any mob hit with it so it could not move.
[*]Tractor Repulsor (beam): reduced shield recharge basically burned down the mobs shield......slowly....and added a 40% damage increase (basically) when attacking the mobs hull.
[/list]
I would definitely like to see the debuffs remain and the damage to be upped.....slightly......but in two different ways.......and through missions and possible raids.
As an example maybe have a mission to learn how to make the ammo for the ML and PL. To get the mission you have to have the weapon equipped and talk to a specific NPC.....but not an RD. Maybe something along the lines of 'We got ahold of these weapons and our engineers were able to make improvements on the ammo. However the RDs recently stole this new technology from us so we cannot use it......yet. Go 'liberate' the technology from their advanced weapons facility located in ***** and we may have a reward for you.

The amount of the ammo damage increase is something that can be tweaked without changing the weapons (see the threaded archo round) and provides an additional reason to do the original RD base raid in AP even at the point when there will be 7+ raids like in Live. It could even open up another raid, if the devs were interested in creating it, where the players attack an RD weapons facility. I would love to see more RD stuff that isn't confined to BBW/Paramis and that had an ongoing storyline that was a critical part of it.

If the devs even wanted to take it up another notch they could have the tech being stolen by the Chavez.......which could lead to Chavez HB, SM, and TR's with increased DPS and a Cavez raid where these items drop. The biggest problem I always see in MMO's is keeping old raids/gear relevant when adding more powerful items. There are several ways to do this, whether its mission based, raid based, or trade based....upgrading the weapons/gear or having them be used to get better versions of the same gear, the way that Westwood did with the Solar sail......is, in my opinion, just great game design.

NOTE: If you have to uninstall a weapon during a fight there is a problem with the design......I mean seriously that's just a player trying to correct a problem with an item. You should want to use these weapons not uninstall them after 1 shot......there is no, "I want to using a boring generic ten-gu PL cause its so cool".....it's "I have to use it because the cool weapons do so little damage." I think most EMU players prefer cool weapons even if the dps is a little lower......but not if its 3 levels of magnitude lower.
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Crichton' timestamp='1340933811' post='59775']

If the devs even wanted to take it up another notch you could have the tech being stolen by the Chavez.......which could lead to Chavez HB, SM, and TR's with increased DPS and a Cavez raid where these items drop. The biggest problem I always see in MMO's is keeping old raids/gear relevant when adding more powerful items. There are several ways to do this, weather its mission based, raid based, or trade based....upgrading the weapons/gear or having them be used to get better versions of the same gear, the way that Westwood did with the Solar sail......is great game design.
[/quote]

That, is a cool idea. Its very similar to the TadaO Gate/Fishbowl concept. A lesser set and a greater set.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...