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Calatin

200% Ores

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You can buy an engine from a vendor, but it will never be as good as one you get from a Engine Builder (e.g. 100% vs. 200%).
You can buy a component from a vendor, but it will never be as good as one you get from a Component Builder.
If you rip an shield down to its components, they'll be 100% quality, not as good as a builder could provide.

So why is it that the ore you buy from a vendor by ripping a component down is every bit as good as the best miner in the game could provide? 100%

Why not...let the prospector's effective Prospect value determine the quality of the ore mined -- 100% to 200% (no random effect, though...If I mine 30 level 7 ores with an effective level 8 prospect skill, I would get, say, 30 170% ores). Let the prospector's effective Prospect Value and the ore value determine the quality of refined ores (with no random adder). And let the quality of the ores and refined ores involved in a component build add to the quality of the component?

It seems to already be built into the game: if you look at any ore, it's just always 100%.

And stack-combining? Easy. If you combine stacks of different percentages, just do a weighted average, e.g. 30@100% + 10@200% = 40@125%.

Seems easy to me, and it would increase the demand for miner-provided ores, without forcing anyone to go down that route.

Something to consider.

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nice idea - or have areas in game where the ore is higher quality that other areas.

And then as areas with good quality ores become known to more people and get more heavily exploited, the quality could drop and other areas increase in quality.

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Not to be a nay-sayer.. but what would this add to the game? What benefit would there be to having 200% ores instead of 100%? Component building automatically produces 200% components, so upscale ores can't have any effect on component quality. (and you can't remove the auto 200% from component building without upsetting every trader)

Maybe the higher quality ores could add a % chance to have a critical build on components, and a critical build would create more than one component from the same amount of ores.
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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300240328' post='36632']
Not to be a nay-sayer.. but what would this add to the game?
[/quote]

I second this question.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300240328' post='36632']
Component building automatically produces 200% components, so upscale ores can't have any effect on component quality. (and you can't remove the auto 200% from component building without upsetting every trader)
[/quote]

Hmm, I didn't know that 200% was automatic..I figured it worked just like every other build skill. (My personal style doesn't favor Trader classes, so I don't generally play them.) :-( Hmmmmm.

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I suppose by adding another layer of variable it might add another reason for mining toons to be popular right through game instead of just when building high level uber toys .....
Eg CFB etc etc

All the best
Alk

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There are atleast a few non-component builds that take refined ores that could benefit from this.

I like Yuritau's idea about critical comp building. Have ores be auto-200% when refined, and have each 200% ore give a chance build two comps instead of one, with all ores at 200% being an automatic two comps. Would have to make sure its limited to just compenents though, wouldnt want a refined ore allowing someone a chance to get two equipment built for the few non-comps that use a refined ore. Ammo-comp ore is almost all unrefined, so the components most needed in vast quantities wouldnt be affected, not sure if thats a good or bad thing though.

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I've thought about this too. I think the quality of components should be dependant on the quality of the materials used. Getting 200% automatically like we get today makes it way to easy, since it basically guarantees 200% quality items all the way. We're not even in beta yet, so people should be prepared for changes. Where is the variety in getting 200% everytime? If quality is implemented on ores, getting 200% components consistently should require 200% refined ore. Getting 200% refined ore consistently should require refining 200% unrefined ore.

However, I think the number of qualities on ores should be limited to make stacking possible(or average the quality of a stack). An idea that could supplement this is to use the refining terminals to purify 2 unrefined ores of any quality to one 200% unrefined ore. The quality of refined ore should depend at least on the quality of the unrefined ore used and the skill of the refiner.

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Having thought about it further, keeping in mind the fact that too many credits exist in game, I now dislike the critical build thing I posted.

Knix has a point, too.. limited variation in ore quality. I'm thinking, for simplicity, two different qualities for raw ores: if it was mined by a player 125%, else 100%. For refined ores: if refined from player mined ores 150%, if player-refined from non-mined ores (ripped from comps etc) 125%, else 100%. For the ores that have multiple refinement steps, each time it is player-refined adds 25%, so even if you start with iron ore not mined by a player, you'd still end up with 150% steel. Couple this with removing the auto-200% from component building to increase the ore market demand.

I'm sure this would also provide a little bit more of a money sink, since if you failed to get 200% on the component, ripping it to try again would provide you with all 100% ores.

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There are plenty of cases, if not the majority, where an ore is only refined once, it would essentially be a quality penalty on those comps that don't require multiple refines to make their ores. This may anger both Traders & Explorers. In addition it's not possible to unrefine a refined ore, so if the Explorer gets bad quality on the refined ore, he has to go out and find some more, while every other type of manufacturing, does have the option to rip & rebuild.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300240328' post='36632']
Not to be a nay-sayer.. but what would this add to the game? What benefit would there be to having 200% ores instead of 100%? Component building automatically produces 200% components, so upscale ores can't have any effect on component quality. (and you can't remove the auto 200% from component building without upsetting every trader)

Maybe the higher quality ores could add a % chance to have a critical build on components, and a critical build would create more than one component from the same amount of ores.
[/quote]
same thought

i see two possible ways:
[list][*][b]No quality change for any ores, simple[/b].[*][b]Ores can have quality based on factors, but [/b][b]only Refined ores can still be PM[/b][b]. the factors:[/b] extraction, ore fields, the prospected object itself, the tool involved (device bonus to skill), or other random (dismantle), etc - it could range from say, 30% to 130% quality[/list]-
Varying PM and non-PM quality [u]refined[/u] materials would probably be easy to do.
Varying [u]non-PM[/u] quality [u]unrefined[/u] might be easy to do too.
But don't forget, [u]PM raw ores[/u] would mean a magical technology and device that could work at molecular would be needed... we don't have such magic machines yet (or at least at industrial scale) to fuse matter and transform it at will. and if we did, wouldn't be cheap, nor now, now in 100 or 200 years (high pressure, heat, etc)

if implemented, bear in mind also, it's possible, but hard to turn a refined ore into a unrefined ore.
[list][*]Uranium and Plutonium slugs can be enriched and vice-versa, in a lengthy and costly process.[*]Raw stones can be polished - to become raw, it has to be puckered by tools, crushed to tiny bits or turned into dust.[*]Raw metals can be melt to become refined - it's not efficient or most useful to do the reverse (add oxygen, carbon, or materials into it while being melted again)[/list]-
[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1300311537' post='36685']
There are plenty of cases, if not the majority, where an ore is only refined once, it would essentially be a quality penalty on those comps that don't require multiple refines to make their ores. This may anger both Traders & Explorers. In addition it's not possible to unrefine a refined ore, so if the Explorer gets bad quality on the refined ore, he has to go out and find some more, while every other type of manufacturing, does have the option to rip & rebuild.
[/quote]

just noticed you talked the same =P
i'm not in the field of mining, but it's common knowledge

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I actually dont like this idea, there were a few good pointers like 200% refined ore could produce 2 comps instead of one, but I think you are forgetting something.

Ok so you can make extra comps with 200% [b]refined ore[/b], But what about those comps that [b]dont[/b] use refined ore?

Ammo Comps use [b]raw ore[/b] not refined and this actually wouldn't help anyone build extra comps from this ore.

On top of that I have seen calls for ammo ore on the market that I currently need but no one seems to provide that ore, all they do i whine about how they cant sell the other ore that can be easily pulled from vendor comps.

Personally I dont think the need for this kind of change is required, rather people are trying to sell of the wrong type of ore or mining the wrong ones, and not looking at what ore is actually needed most.

Here is a sample of ore that should be "Sold" in the market place that there is a big demand for.

Raw Eye Stone L7
Horusium Ore L7
Stygian Blackwater L6
Discordite L6
Apollonite L7

And that is just a sample, I dont think the market is bad for ores, I think the miners that want to sell ore just are not selling the right type of ores that are actually in demand.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300240328' post='36632']
Not to be a nay-sayer.. but what would this add to the game? What benefit would there be to having 200% ores instead of 100%? Component building automatically produces 200% components, so upscale ores can't have any effect on component quality. (and you can't remove the auto 200% from component building without upsetting every trader)

Maybe the higher quality ores could add a % chance to have a critical build on components, and a critical build would create more than one component from the same amount of ores.
[/quote]


With the kind of comp building that is occuring at an Automatic 200%, with this same mind set, why do you not always or automatically get superior ammo each time it is built using ores? Or is this also automatic and I am just not in the know?

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[quote name='Exiledrapier' timestamp='1300314456' post='36688']
With the kind of comp building that is occuring at an Automatic 200%, with this same mind set, why do you not always or automatically get superior ammo each time it is built using ores? Or is this also automatic and I am just not in the know?
[/quote]

Ammo, as far as I know, only comes out 200%. In Live PM ammo also had Superior added to it's name.

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[quote name='Exiledrapier' timestamp='1300314456' post='36688']
With the kind of comp building that is occuring at an Automatic 200%, with this same mind set, why do you not always or automatically get superior ammo each time it is built using ores? Or is this also automatic and I am just not in the know?
[/quote]
Yes.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1300316150' post='36692']
Ammo, as far as I know, only comes out 200%. In Live PM ammo also had Superior added to it's name.
[/quote]

true, to help differentiate from non-PM ammo i think.

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[quote name='Maniac' timestamp='1300311884' post='36687']
Raw Eye Stone L7
Horusium Ore L7
Stygian Blackwater L6
Discordite L6
Apollonite L7

And that is just a sample, I dont think the market is bad for ores, I think the miners that want to sell ore just are not selling the right type of ores that are actually in demand.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that most people that mine these ores, do so because either they need them, or a guildmate/friend needs them. The dozen or so other ore types you collect while mining those, however, no one wants to pay for, hence, so they pile up or get vendored. A market where a select few resources are in demand, and every other resource is mostly ignored, is a prime example of a bad market.

I've said it before, and i'll keep saying it. the biggest problem with mining in EnB is there are too many ore types. The game would be greatly improved, imho, if the number of different ores was reduced by 1/3 to 1/2 at each level.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300327527' post='36710']
I'm pretty sure that most people that mine these ores, do so because either they need them, or a guildmate/friend needs them. The dozen or so other ore types you collect while mining those, however, no one wants to pay for, hence, so they pile up or get vendored. A market where a select few resources are in demand, and every other resource is mostly ignored, is a prime example of a bad market.
[/quote]

This is true however I would much rather not have to mine them myself and buy them, thus its were the market is right now.

What I was pointing out is those that cry about not selling anything should look into mining the ones that are in demand, isnt that the point of the concept supply and demand?

Those I listed are only a few of the ores that should be mined and sold on the market, and im sure you can make alot of credits just mining those alone.

All im saying is there is a major market for ammo ores.

There are others that you might also consider, those that make brimstone Comps, Those are L9 refined ores that would also be a good market.

There are ways around this slump, true alot of miners work for thier perspective guild, however what about those outside a guild? There are lots of Ore out there thats worth a lot of credits, just takes alittle research is all.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300327527' post='36710']
I've said it before, and i'll keep saying it. the biggest problem with mining in EnB is there are too many ore types. The game would be greatly improved, imho, if the number of different ores was reduced by 1/3 to 1/2 at each level.
[/quote]

This could be approached from the other direction as well. Design some new comps to use the ores that aren't really used. There's always going to be some need for new equipment, Athanor, BlackBox, Brimstone, Cyclo, CE3K, MX, and other companies could always make more comps, if there's some new equipment that needs them. We could also make a new company or two, that has something along the lines of what MX supposedly has, where some comps are vendor, and others aren't. I say supposedly because the only MX comp I can think of off the top of my head is the Surge Stitcher.

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[quote name='Yuritau' timestamp='1300327527' post='36710']
I'm pretty sure that most people that mine these ores, do so because either they need them, or a guildmate/friend needs them. The dozen or so other ore types you collect while mining those, however, no one wants to pay for, hence, so they pile up or get vendored. A market where a select few resources are in demand, and every other resource is mostly ignored, is a prime example of a bad market.

I've said it before, and i'll keep saying it. the biggest problem with mining in EnB is there are too many ore types. The game would be greatly improved, imho, if the number of different ores was reduced by 1/3 to 1/2 at each level.
[/quote]

Ores aren't unique in this respect. Most loot that is dropped via combat also has little/no demand. So players sell those items to NPC's. NPC's aren't refusing to buy the "unwanted" ores. In fact the mining characters have the opportunity for a double (triple, really) XP bonus as they trade the raw ores to a player who then trades them back - miner gains XP. Miner then takes those ores and refines them - and gains XP. Miner then either directly sells "unwanted" refined ores to NPC or trades them to another player - in either case gaining XP (and credits). By contrast the player that has combat loot, most of it in no/low demand, only gets some xp and creds by selling to an NPC.

Who is getting the better deal here?

I don't see what is driving this thread. What is it that's broken that these proposals intend to fix?

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[quote name='Jarod' timestamp='1300331044' post='36715']
Who is getting the better deal here?
[/quote]
If you feel warriors are getting a raw deal, please feel free to make a proposal that might improve the situation. Nothing says we can only consider ideas on one front at a time.

[quote name='Jarod' timestamp='1300331044' post='36715']
I don't see what is driving this thread. What is it that's broken that these proposals intend to fix?
[/quote]
A fair question.
[list=1]
[*]Interaction between players is good.
[*]Other than a handful of ammo-related ores, miners and component builders don't interact much. For a healthy and dynamic economy, one might expect a food chain of ore providers -> component builders -> item builders -> item users (everyone). (Not unlike the real world: mined iron ore -> bulk steel -> auto chassis -> finished car -> consumers.)
[*]One reason for this lack of interaction is that ripped or vendor-purchased ores are every bit as good as mined ores.
[*]Hence a proposal to make miner-provided ores provide an extra bonus, increasing demand (i.e. a reason to interact) without creating an annoying absolute dependency.
[/list]

Now, given that components and ammo are always 200%, I'm not sure what that bonus should be. But there are some ideas being kicked around in this thread.

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I've seen a system used in other games, in WoW for example a repair Bot would offer some potions or whatever the item may be, but only in limited quantity. If you were to limit the comps on each station to a set number only to repopulate after 5 or so hours (5 hours just choosen at random), there is no doubt the comps would stay out of stock on the station thus forcing player interaction between those that seek it in this thread.

Comp builders would be forced to ask for the ores needed should they need a build that didnt have any comps available at the station. The down side of this is you would very likely have a select few driving the market for these items and asking astronomical prices for the comps, and its likely the miners would also take the chance to capitalize by increasing their prices for the ores as well.

Cant have all good with no bad, but that would put the games market back into a more realistic market place, would also force the use of credits / create a money sink of sorts.

Not saying any of this is rational or logical, but that would be one way to implement a system that forced interaction, forced trading to occur, and thru market supply (or lack of) and demand would likely hike the prices up to create a money sink.


Ehhh it was just a thought.

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[quote name='LPCA' timestamp='1300311556' post='36686']
But don't forget, [u]PM raw ores[/u] would mean a magical technology and device that could work at molecular would be needed... we don't have such magic machines yet (or at least at industrial scale) to fuse matter and transform it at will. and if we did, wouldn't be cheap, nor now, now in 100 or 200 years (high pressure, heat, etc)
[/quote]
I don't know much about the refining processes used today, but I wouldn't be surprised if they include several steps, and more steps to increase the purity of the end product if low-grade ore is used.

[quote name='Jarod' timestamp='1300331044' post='36715']
I don't see what is driving this thread. What is it that's broken that these proposals intend to fix?
[/quote]
For me, what's driving this subject is the lack of variation introduced by guaranteed 200% quality builds when you begin with refined ores.

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[quote name='Calatin' timestamp='1300336823' post='36723']
If you feel warriors are getting a raw deal, please feel free to make a proposal that might improve the situation. Nothing says we can only consider ideas on one front at a time.


A fair question.
[list=1]
[*]Interaction between players is good.
[*]Other than a handful of ammo-related ores, miners and component builders don't interact much. For a healthy and dynamic economy, one might expect a food chain of ore providers -> component builders -> item builders -> item users (everyone). (Not unlike the real world: mined iron ore -> bulk steel -> auto chassis -> finished car -> consumers.)
[*]One reason for this lack of interaction is that ripped or vendor-purchased ores are every bit as good as mined ores.
[*]Hence a proposal to make miner-provided ores provide an extra bonus, increasing demand (i.e. a reason to interact) without creating an annoying absolute dependency.
[/list]

Now, given that components and ammo are always 200%, I'm not sure what that bonus should be. But there are some ideas being kicked around in this thread.
[/quote]

No, I don't think anyone is getting a raw deal - was merely pointing out the *substantial* opportunity for XP gain that is provided to miners regardless of whether the ore/gas mined is in demand. The demand aspect of it would only affect the miner's ability to increase profit - and I'm not seeing, in the game's current state, that lack of credits is a big problem.

Apologies for not using the quote structure better here as with the list tags I'm afraid I'd mung it up, but as to your points:
1) Agreed, interaction is good
2) Agreed, a healthy supply chain that involves all chartypes is good. Although, as has been mentioned upthread, I believe the interaction between miners and builders happens a lot more than you might think. It's just that those interactions aren't predominantly taking place via market channel but via Guild chat or other arranged relationships.
3) Agree somewhat, but see (2) - there is interaction just more private vs public
4) I don't really see this affecting the interaction model. The same model will continue, just with additional bonus to the builder. As I'm a builder, miner, and Guild member I'll still have the same access as I did before - just with shinier builds. What's changed?

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