Making Gas ore useful!

[bondct]

not enough

not enough what? tacos? waffles? cake?

[Choco]

not enough what? tacos? waffles? cake?

did someone say cake?

[Terrell [BT]]

not just jenpie... but all explorers... and so any beam user would need gases to use their beams and we could have vendor low grade gas and mined and refined high grade gas......

while I beleive that we should get rid of all ammo in the game for all weapons... if that is not an option... then I like the idea of using gas or gas combined with ores as ammo for beams... it really gives mining a hardcore purpose... although you would need to keep the stacks high or else you might hurt the jd... not sure how many cargo slots they have...

JW has 30 at top hull.

[bondct]

JW has 30 at top hull.

is that the same as pw? if so, then I would say jd has enough slots to carry stacks of ammo if the stacks are equivalent in size to pw stacks... but if the stacks are smaller like missles then jd may need more slots...

and I realize that all jen are prob hating this idea... but from a miner perpective it sounds really cool... imo

[seekeronos]

Not sure we'll have much of a Jenpie playerbase left after a "beam ammo" requirement goes in.

But check this out... make the "gas consummables" connected to mining as follows -

Rather than GIMPING existing mining set-ups... why not do this, as a device option that augments the base mining laser as follows (with parenthetical data for 200% quality builds) :

-- Base mining laser (the thing every miner class ship spawns into the EnB universe with - no change, no buffs/debuffs)

-- Light Industrial Mining Laser L3 device: adds +0.5 (+0.75) to prospect level and +10% (+15%) to tractor speed

-- Heavy Industrial Mining Laser L5 device, not to be confused with the similarly named "Heavy Mining Laser" that is a beam weapon: adds +1.25 (+1.50) to prospect level, and +25% (+35%) tractor speed

-- Super Heavy Mining Array L7 device: adds +2.0 (+2.5) to prospect level, +45% (+65%) tractor speed, and Reactor Recharge +2 (+2.5)

-- Class-specific L9 mining lasers, which in common add +3.5 (+4) to prospect level, +100% (+125%) tractor speed, Reactor Recharge +3.5 (+5.0), Scan Range (activated) +2.5 (+3.0)

---- For the TS: L9 Hyperian Friend's PowR-Auger - in addition to the base buffs mentioned above, it adds: Signature Reduction -1km (-1.5km) and Shield Cap +10% (+15%)

---- For the JE: L9 Lao-Tzu's Revelation - in addition to the base buffs mentioned above, it adds: Beam Skill +2.5 (+3.0) and Weapons Turbo +22% (+28%)

---- For the PE: L9 Focus Optimus - in addition to the base buffs mentioned above, it adds: Warp Boost (equipped) +550 (+650), Combat Speed +150 (+200)

Build Recipes

In general, the pattern for building these mining lasers should consist of a shell/case component, a mount, a focusing optic, and three units of a specific and somewhat rare super refined gas. All of the components and gases should be of the same level as the completed laser, i.e. the L3 Industrial Mining Laser would use a L3 case, an L3 mount, an L3 optic, and three units of a super-refined L3+ gases.

By super refined, I mean adding another layer of refinement to the refining chain - using our L3 example, we would need 3 units of (an as yet to be created L3 refined gas) "Compressed Argon Fluorohydride", refined from 1 unit of L4 Liquid Argon, 4 units of L3 Liquid Fluorine, and 1 unit of L1 Liquid Hydrogen, where each component gas is itself refined from raw gases.

The L9 class specific maps would all call for an L9 Evolver Aeserium Case, an L9 loot-only Athanor Astral Mount, and an L9 Evolver Vision XTR optic, and three units of a super-refined rare L9 gas (varies with the build) :

Compressed Dark Matter Imbued Pagion - refined from 6 units of Dark Matter Imbued Liquid Pagion (total of 30 units of D.M.I. Pagion Gas)

Fuel for Thought

For each device, there would be a corresponding super-refined refined gas that would need to be collected and kept in a stack (possibly a super-refined gas would stack to 30, for example, a stack of our "Compressed Argon Fluorohydride" would be 30 units, requiring a total of CAF = 150 argon + 450 fluorine + 150 hydrogen... or 600ea. or Pagion Gas for the L9 mining lasers.

The stack itself could refine to a further level with a L3 "Empty Gas Tank" to become "A Tank of Compressed Argon Fluorohydride", or the appropriate gas for the appropriate laser.

The consumption of the "Tank of Compressed ~~" could be keyed to the play time of the player from the timestamp when the tank was crafted, or it could be keyed to a certain number of uses.

The timer/use counter should be considerably longer for the higher level lasers, and build quality should be a factor in consumption as well (higher quality, more efficient use of the tank).

After the timer limit/use counter has been reached, the tank reverts back to being "Empty Gas Tank", and can be recycled.

How think ye, fellow EnB miners?

Edited June 8, 2010 by -Seeker-

[Terrell [BT]]

is that the same as pw? if so, then I would say jd has enough slots to carry stacks of ammo if the stacks are equivalent in size to pw stacks... but if the stacks are smaller like missles then jd may need more slots...

and I realize that all jen are prob hating this idea... but from a miner perpective it sounds really cool... imo

Depends, can we change the types of gasses and do different damage types? Would mean that we don't have to buy 2 sets of beams, one in Energy the other in Plasma. Would have LOVED to have plasma damage out of Ghost's Edge lasers, given their mining friendly buffs.

[seekeronos]

Brain dumped on PE device levels, edited my post to reflect it.

[Terrell [BT]]

Seeker, no need for tractor range buffs when mining, they really don't have an effect, since how far away we can mine is determined by our Prospect skill, prior to buffs (2.5K @ L7). Instead just have those buffs be on Tractor beam speed.

[bondct]

Depends, can we change the types of gasses and do different damage types? Would mean that we don't have to buy 2 sets of beams, one in Energy the other in Plasma. Would have LOVED to have plasma damage out of Ghost's Edge lasers, given their mining friendly buffs.

well I was kinda getting at that earlier... so lets say that a L7 energy beam takes <insert refined L7 gas here> then to make it plasma it would be <insert refined L7 gas here + L7 refined ore here> so this would make a use not only for gases but ores as well, as changing the ore would change the effect... and it would also offer miners a trade outlet as they would be refining more... although building ammo was never a big source of TL.

keep in mind that we would always have vendor ammo for them... but I cant really see this being a downside for jens... first off the jen trader is a new class kinda... so get over it... ALL the explorers would love it as ores/gases now have a use and are actually in a 24-7 demand like missle projectile ammo...

the only one a little pissed would be the jd... but if we set it up so that is ammo use and hold size give the equivelant yeild as the othet 2 warrior classes then at least its fair...

Edited June 8, 2010 by Avani

[seekeronos]

Seeker, no need for tractor range buffs when mining, they really don't have an effect, since how far away we can mine is determined by our Prospect skill, prior to buffs (2.5K @ L7). Instead just have those buffs be on Tractor beam speed.

Heheh. You're right. And when you are trying to grab that juicy Erebusite, and you got your eyes on that big hunk of Discordite in the next 'roid over, and some stealthy JE is creeping up behind you... Tractor Speed is King™

Fixed it;)

[Terrell [BT]]

Heheh. You're right. And when you are trying to grab that juicy Erebusite, and you got your eyes on that big hunk of Discordite in the next 'roid over, and some stealthy JE is creeping up behind you... Tractor Speed is King™

Fixed it;)

True, and since the Scout, Sentinel, and Explorer all share the Build Devices skill, it's reason for them to put points into it.

For the devices themselves, will they come as drops from various mobs, as vendor items, or as mission rewards in the form of prints? Since the gas for the device would be it's "ammo" per se, how does it get used? Does the JE/PE/TE have to use a cargo slot for it, or is it intergrated into the device or the ship in some kind of way?

Edit: made mistake on VO shield, just has reactor cap buff, so no need to change reactor recharge buff.

Scout also gets Reactor Cap, Prospect, Scan, & Hacking on their custom shield, though the Hyperian Frontier's Friend has one disavantage, it's non-manu, so it may not be as commonplace, depending on how frequently it drops as the Veiled Oyoroi.

Edited June 8, 2010 by Terrell

[Suricata79[IS]]

Wouldn't the better option to have beam optic comonants (of which most are already in the game) just require a gas to replace one of the ores in thier manufacture? This would keep any drastic changes from the game, whilst making gas more useful.

I'm pretty sure any new items that get added could use 'weapon/reactor/engine' grade gases, but i don't think it's a good idea making changes that are too drastic, like adding ammo for beams, lol

[blattu]

hello guys

now , im not a dev,or coder or anything, just an active (fairly) player.

i find this thread fasinateing. i would love to see some community additions to enb.

i see so many brilliant ideas tossed around in these threads,but i also see thats to hard,if we do that well lose players,that just nerfs that aspect. which is good for disscusion, but never gets tried.

might i sugguest the guys that can implement something new, please try it.

for example:

make a new say l5 eng,have it drop form 1 specific mob to get the print.then add the gas/ore/fuel changes needed to build it, and give it a try. if it fails,just remove the changes.

keep it simple to start ,then improve.

as i say i don't know much about makeing something like this happen so maybe i should just keep reading and keep my fingers shut

i just get excited by these ideas that i feel would make this game even better

just my humble opinion

thanks

[GenghisBob]

Back to the original idea - different engines can make use of different gasses at their appropriate level. Engines have the same specs as now, however, with the correct gas refined once (5 > 1) they give 5% more speed (warp and impulse). Refined twice ( 25 > 1) they give 10% more speed. Triple refined (125 > 1) the give 15% more speed.

Not a huge change and very gas consuming to get 15% speed increase.

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

Seeker, I like the amount of thought you've put into this, but:

For the PE: L9 Focus Optimus - in addition to the base buffs mentioned above, it adds: Warp Boost (equipped) +550 (+650), Combat Speed +150 (+200)

Kassina's mining gear already provides +212% tractor beam speed, +4.93 prospect skill, and +4.6 base reactor recharge, and nothing requires a large and constant supply of expensive-to-refine gas. The warp and combat speed buffs are also handily outmatched by the NOS. If you're aiming for über mining gear, you need to aim a bit higher, at least for the PS. (Also, this "Lao-Tzu's Revelation", is that an activated weapon turbo? If so, that would definitely qualify; no other item comes close.)

[seekeronos]

Seeker, I like the amount of thought you've put into this, but:

Kassina's mining gear already provides +212% tractor beam speed, +4.93 prospect skill, and +4.6 base reactor recharge, and nothing requires a large and constant supply of expensive-to-refine gas. The warp and combat speed buffs are also handily outmatched by the NOS. If you're aiming for über mining gear, you need to aim a bit higher, at least for the PS. (Also, this "Lao-Tzu's Revelation", is that an activated weapon turbo? If so, that would definitely qualify; no other item comes close.)

I was looking at shoring up what I thought might be "weaknesses" to each miner class.

For the JE, it might be combat effectiveness vs. orefield guardians or pop rocks.

For the TS, it might be shield cap and something to get over the higher base signature (we don't get the ML or rally tweaks that give TE and TT a negative sig with all else being equal)

I really don't know the PE that well, beyond the general perception that Progens are somewhat big, bulky, nearsighted, and not quite as fast out of the box as the other two miners.

[seekeronos]

Wouldn't the better option to have beam optic comonants (of which most are already in the game) just require a gas to replace one of the ores in thier manufacture? This would keep any drastic changes from the game, whilst making gas more useful.

I'm pretty sure any new items that get added could use 'weapon/reactor/engine' grade gases, but i don't think it's a good idea making changes that are too drastic, like adding ammo for beams, lol

+3 for setting my mind at ease.

This really would be the "path of least resistance" in that swapping out base component ores for some gases makes the best sense.

That said, I'm going to pitch another epic, horrifying breaking idea for gases... in another thread.

[Terrell [BT]]

I was looking at shoring up what I thought might be "weaknesses" to each miner class.

For the JE, it might be combat effectiveness vs. orefield guardians or pop rocks.

For the TS, it might be shield cap and something to get over the higher base signature (we don't get the ML or rally tweaks that give TE and TT a negative sig with all else being equal)

I really don't know the PE that well, beyond the general perception that Progens are somewhat big, bulky, nearsighted, and not quite as fast out of the box as the other two miners.

PE and Scout have same scan range (5.0K + Scan 5), before buffs are applied only JE is better (5.0K + Scan 7). Question is how many items can a PE use to buff scan range vs a Scout?

Scout is probably a bit better off than Sentinel on sig because they can use some of the Jenquai equipment that reduces sig. Pleiades Reactors (activated), Mercurius/Halley/Trifid engines (equip), Hidden Eye (equip), & Invisible Eye (equip) are some examples.

Scout & PE could probably use a little reactor help while leveling up, and I don't think that the Scout has a special reactor like the PE's Vulture. (advantage Sentinel)

[Vinzent Zeppelin[IS]]

PE and Scout have same scan range (5.0K + Scan 5), before buffs are applied only JE is better (5.0K + Scan 7). Question is how many items can a PE use to buff scan range vs a Scout?

Scout is probably a bit better off than Sentinel on sig because they can use some of the Jenquai equipment that reduces sig. Pleiades Reactors (activated), Mercurius/Halley/Trifid engines (equip), Hidden Eye (equip), & Invisible Eye (equip) are some examples.

Scout & PE could probably use a little reactor help while leveling up, and I don't think that the Scout has a special reactor like the PE's Vulture. (advantage Sentinel)

The Sentinel does indeed have the fewest options for scan range, but the Roc line of devices work well at level 5 and up. GETCo also sells a nifty device I would imagine quite a few people overlook, the level 2 DataCom which adds 25% scan range for 400 seconds. As for signature reduction, the PS's only viable option whatsoever (short of über gear) is to get a Zenshai Nav Computer at level 5 (which also happens to buff scan range) and/or a Solar Sail.

[Terrell [BT]]

The Sentinel does indeed have the fewest options for scan range, but the Roc line of devices work well at level 5 and up. GETCo also sells a nifty device I would imagine quite a few people overlook, the level 2 DataCom which adds 25% scan range for 400 seconds. As for signature reduction, the PS's only viable option whatsoever (short of über gear) is to get a Zenshai Nav Computer at level 5 (which also happens to buff scan range) and/or a Solar Sail.

Thanks, I didn't get Torrie high enough in Live, but had I been able to get her to Prospect 7 I would have had her do Lyle McDonald's mission. He gives a L8 device that JE/PE could use in Live, that reduced sig, increased scan, and gave both fast and long tractor. Loony's Special Gizmoblatsit.

For now maybe after I do something with my PE in emu I should have my Seeker give her the zenshai nav comp she got in VC.

Agree on Solar Sail, especially Reinforced Solar Sail L8. That engine is the reason I intend to level engine tech on all my toons.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Terrell

[Jamosite]

I make my own gas, i am doing it now as I type.

I think the idea of gas being used in production of a new faster engine would be nice

or gas needed to buff you to go faster but not needed as fuel. you got to understand, the idea is in the future the mode of transportation should for the most part be self sustaining.

This is the dream in real life.

:->

[MW2366]

Time to destroy this conversation with a Wall Post! C'mon! Bring you're imaginative genious to it's limits!

Anyways, I would personally put in gasses to be implemented as new items and 'upgrades' to different 'phases' of Engines/Reactor/Beams.

A. Let the Basic Beam not consume ammo, but have the upgraded beams require ammo to fire them so it's not so much a drag on the consumer market... we should also make ammo components and all-gas ammo components to beams (to make it somewhat a challenge, but not too much, say one in... 7 beams that require a specialized analyzeable component for an ammo). The Damage, and Range should increase (Damage should increase 10-100 points on each phase, Range should increase by 0.5k-2.0k), and the Energy Consumption, and Fire Rate should decrease (figurative of Energy Consumption, and Fire Rate: decreased by 10-50 units of energy, and 0.25-1.00 seconds). Should you run out of the required ammo component, then it'll revert to its Basic Beam.

B. Again, let's not have a complete dependancy on ore for the Basic Engines, but instead upgrade them to better phases of themselves. Now the phases (and phases would have to be... well in terms of Latin... Delta, and Omega (come up with a third upgrade name to add to the engine, Alpha, Beta, and Gamma's been taken by the Progen)) would require a component that can be drained from the vault of a player, rather than the cargo hold (if such a thing can be feasible).

The components will require all-gas and will only be ripped from looted engines from combat or ripped to lesser phases. There should be a minimum of at least 50-100,000 (level 1 to 9) credits for a phase upgrade (improve for balance) because the manufacturing terminal has to fuse in the refined gas (plus container component) with the engine. Should you run out of the required component, it will only drop to the Basic Engine's Warp Speed, Thrust, and Warp Drain, rather then HALVE it so it's lesser than the Basic Engines Warp Speed, Thrust, and Warp Drain.

Now, for the gas drain on the more advanced engines, well that will have to depend on the Warp Drain and distance traveled (can't come up with an equation at this moment, will have to leave it to you guys to decide), and subtract that much from your vault, which shouldn't be too much, or too little (I can think of 10.0k-20.0k warp distance would subtract 1 unit of the Component).

C. Reactors, again with engines, but this time recharge consumes the component rather than distance... to incorporate this into the game, I would allow the Reactor to be built with all-gas components (into container components). The reactor cap, and recharge on the phases will increase (Figuratively, Cap and Recharge: 50-2500.0 units of energy, and 25.0-150.0 recharge per second), now note, that I haven't included any active or equipped buffs... which will be explained in D..

D. Onto Buffs (Activateable, Equippable, Instants, any and all of the buffs in-game).

Equipped decrease buffs - will be lessened in the primary and secondary phases (by 10-30%), but in the tertiary it will be removed completely.

Equipped good buffs - in Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary phases will be improved (by about 10-30%).

Activateable decrease buffs - will be more lethal in primary, and secondary phases (by yet again, 10-30%), and by tertiary the main debuff will be improved (by 10-30%) and include a new debuff for your enemies to fear.

Activateable good buffs - they'll be improved (by 10-30%, my favorite numbers for some reason) on the primary, and secondary phases, on tertiary the main buff will be improved (by 10-30%), and include a new, but weaker buff than the main.

Instants - I don't exactly know if there ARE bad instants, but all of them (good or detrimental) will be improved on the primary/secondary phases (by 10-30%) and by tertiary will have a new instant or BOOST to the player/enemy, along with the main instant.

Now then, sorry for this huuuuge wall o' text, but my main point is that it's a very interesting idea that I took some thought into and this is what I came out with, something the community WON'T HAVE TO use but will be there should they so choose to, and IT WILL BE useful.

*Was going to post this earlier today, internet time ran out on me, all these... figures are just rough estimates that I came up with off the top of my head, you, Developers, should come out with a balanced solution to this, we have faith in you.

- Foreststrike

[Yuritau]

If you want to keep talking about the possibility of beams requiring 'ammo', you need to also start discussing how this nerf (don't even try to pretend it's anything but a nerf) will be offset. Look at why beam weapons are the way they are. They have a very short range compared to the other weapons and do not benefit from increased firing rate like the other weapons. Also, they are energy weapons, they already have an 'ammo' in their design: your reactor energy.

So if you want to make beams require ammo, how will you balance that? Will beam range be brought in line with projectiles/missiles? Will damage be significantly increased? Will the energy usage of beams be heavily reduced? Would the refire rate start being modified by quality? If not, then altering beams to require ammo will be nothing less than a crippling blow to the entire Jenquai race.

The two main reasons that jenquai actually use beams are: 1. that's the weapon type the devs gave them level 9 proficiency with, and 2. they don't require ammo.

If they all of a sudden require ammo, then I'm willing to bet that quite a few jenquai would switch to either missiles or projectiles. If we get stuck with needing ammo anyways, we might as well enjoy the benefits of proper ammo weapons.

Now if you instead want to use gas ores to make buff items that beam users can OPTIONALLY use to increase the effectiveness of their beams, then we can talk. The ammo thing, no.

[bondct]

Now if you instead want to use gas ores to make buff items that beam users can OPTIONALLY use to increase the effectiveness of their beams, then we can talk. The ammo thing, no.

first off, requiring beams to use gasses/ores as ammo is not a nerf... if anything it balances things out a bit... now bring your bloodpressure down a bit and read on...

I know its hard to read all the threads in a post... so let me help you out some... if beams were to have ammo (so to speak)... then there would obviously be 2 TYPES OF BEAM AMMO

let me repeat that 2 TYPES OF BEAM AMMO...

the first vendor would give the beam the exact damage it currently does... yes I know ur pissed... but then... wait for it... waaaiittt foorrr itt... then, there would be player made beam ammo at 200%... wanna guess what that does... thats right... same thing as all other 200% ammo does... as a matter of fact if you wanna be pissed at sumtin... be pissed off at the JD who is screwing up such a great thing for the JT and JE... cuz imo 200% beam ammo would make the JD toooooo OP sadly enough...

so if it were implemented you would see an influx and not a loss of Jenpies to the server... although as I said... it will prob neva happen cuz of the jd messin it up

[Yuritau]

The only thing so far that has given me any urge to be upset is your patronizing and condescending tone. I gave no indication of being 'pissed' in my post.