Progen Privateer

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Correct, but unfortunately if hull patch was removed from the TT and given to the TS, they'd be a whole world of hurt out there from the TT's

[Raytan]

Just give um befriend, that'll make them happy

[Terrell [BT]]

Give them something unique, and useful. Every class should have at least 1 skill, that's both useful and exclusive.

[Moche]

imo shield recahrge skill on the CFB seems OP, already it is THE shield of choice for all Progens and is a mordanna drop so shouldn't be in the game yet (especially since it is the only mordanna drop in game and no other classes get theirs) but that is a buff that is of such value that you should have to make some sacrifice for it. it does not exist on any must have TT gear it is something you have to go out of your way to equip and why even in live end game TT's used to equip smuglers recourse for raids.

[Hyri]

I think they went OTT on this class. Just seems really overpowered.

Combat:

5 Weapon Slots + Critical Targeting = Warrior Class.

Menace - Arguably the most powerful skill in the game.

Recharge Shields = More staying power than a Progen Warrior.

Trade:

Build Skills - Weapons, Reactors and Shields. The Big 3.

Suggestions:

Either,

1) Remove a weapon slot so it's 4x.

Reason: Trader's aren't supposed to be Warriors and yet the PP has 5 Weapon slots (equal to TE and JD) and Critical Targeting.

OR

2) Remove recharge shields.

Reason: The PP has more staying power than the PW due to Shield Recharge. Removing this would make the PP a Warrior-Like Trader which I gather is the point.

OR

3) Remove Build Reactors.

Reason: Build Reactors is the most valuable Build Skill in the game. In Live only 1 Class could Build Reactors (JE) and you'll notice that the JE is terrible in combat and trade. Build Reactor's should remain unique for that class.

OR

4) A combination of the above.

[Raytan]

LOL, remove build reactors? your joking right? Just what the hell do you think is one of the main purposes of a PP? I dunno maybe building PROGEN ONLY reactors might be one of them. If the PP is to lose a build skill, and I don't think they should, I would say Build Shields would be the one to go since the PS already has the covered for Progen.

[Hyri]

LOL, remove build reactors? your joking right? Just what the hell do you think is one of the main purposes of a PP? I dunno maybe building PROGEN ONLY reactors might be one of them. If the PP is to lose a build skill, and I don't think they should, I would say Build Shields would be the one to go since the PS already has the covered for Progen.

Give it to the explorer class then, the Sentinel.

The Sentinel cannot build Weapons and is limited to Shields and Devices. Sounds pretty fair to me, especially with Menace being on the PP now.

[Raytan]

Giving a 3rd build skill to any explorer class much less a PS is a bad idea. Although build weapons would be nice, I'd gladly give up build shields for build weapons on my PS.

[garblesoup]

Giving a 3rd build skill to any explorer class much less a PS is a bad idea. Although build weapons would be nice, I'd gladly give up build shields for build weapons on my PS.

/agree

Come on - take away Build Reactors from the PP and leave it with only TWO build skills? What kind of a Trader is that? And, for the record, I don't have a PP char. I don't see the big problem with the PP and some might argue with your description of the "Big 3" of build skills; everyone needs all 3 of those but on a volume basis *Devices* is the hands-down winner.

[Phaethon]

You're right about menace, it is "Arguably" the "best" skill. I will argue here that it is as effective as TT's Befriend, it just works in kind of in reverse. Ask any TT how useful that skill is.

[garblesoup]

You're right about menace, it is "Arguably" the "best" skill. I will argue here that it is as effective as TT's Befriend, it just works in kind of in reverse. Ask any TT how useful that skill is.

Befriend is awesome . . . if you have a crazy surplus of skill points and need a skillpoint sink. I think Menace is better than Befriend but that's like saying Pizza Hut is better than Domino's . . . it's really just saying one sucks more than the other.

[Hyri]

/agree

Come on - take away Build Reactors from the PP and leave it with only TWO build skills? What kind of a Trader is that? And, for the record, I don't have a PP char. I don't see the big problem with the PP and some might argue with your description of the "Big 3" of build skills; everyone needs all 3 of those but on a volume basis *Devices* is the hands-down winner.

What kind of trader has 5 Weapon Slots and Critical Targeting? The Terran Enforcer? That has 2 Trade Skills, see the problem?

The PP just seems too much like a Warrior to justify all that, it even has level 9 Reactor and level 9 Shields like a PW ffs.

Maybe im too wrapped up in the live version of the game where Trader meant Healer (TT only =P). Seeing a Trader with that amount of firepower, who can still heal (granted only shields), and has a build skill which was exclusive to the worst combat class just seems OP to me.

As for menace, it can fail.. and does frequently. But it potentially allows you to kill something without taking a single hit and that makes it powerful. If PvP was introduced into this game I guarantee people would be complaining about it within 5 minutes.

[garblesoup]

What kind of trader has 5 Weapon Slots and Critical Targeting? The Terran Enforcer? That has 2 Trade Skills, see the problem?

The PP just seems too much like a Warrior to justify all that, it even has level 9 Reactor and level 9 Shields like a PW ffs.

Maybe im too wrapped up in the live version of the game where Trader meant Healer (TT only =P). Seeing a Trader with that amount of firepower, who can still heal (granted only shields), and has a build skill which was exclusive to the worst combat class just seems OP to me.

As for menace, it can fail.. and does frequently. But it potentially allows you to kill something without taking a single hit and that makes it powerful. If PvP was introduced into this game I guarantee people would be complaining about it within 5 minutes.

What kind of a Trader only has 2 build skills?

And if your claim is that Trader = Healer then do keep in mind that the reason the TT has some of the skills it has is only because the Scout class wasn't ready so they stuck it on the TT. Otherwise the TT wouldn't have either Shield Recharge or Hull Patch (or both, even). And I played a TT as my primary all through Live.

I don't understand why you are so upset about the PP. It has a lot of guns because that plays to the Progen aspect and it can build 3 things because it's a Trader . . . and of all the skills it has Menace is (IMO) clearly the crappiest.

[Phaethon]

What kind of trader has 5 Weapon Slots and Critical Targeting? The Terran Enforcer? That has 2 Trade Skills, see the problem?

The PP just seems too much like a Warrior to justify all that, it even has level 9 Reactor and level 9 Shields like a PW ffs.

Maybe im too wrapped up in the live version of the game where Trader meant Healer (TT only =P). Seeing a Trader with that amount of firepower, who can still heal (granted only shields), and has a build skill which was exclusive to the worst combat class just seems OP to me.

As for menace, it can fail.. and does frequently. But it potentially allows you to kill something without taking a single hit and that makes it powerful. If PvP was introduced into this game I guarantee people would be complaining about it within 5 minutes.

You ever used menace? Try it, PS throwing menace around is truly unbeatable... not.

You might be confusing PvE Menace with arena PvP Menace where it actually is pretty useful since the other player is never higher CL than you (assuming CL50).

In PvE, it works... sometimes when used on equal CL mobs, never on higher level MOBs and most of times on lower level MOBs. As such it is practically useless since it is fairly easy to kill equal or lower CL MOBs and the only time you like it work work is when that CL66 pounds on you but guess what? There is virtually 0% chance it would work on CL66 since it is a skill.

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

Right there are a few misconceptions here.

1. Critical Targetting is a passive inherant Progen race skill just like Navigation is a Terran Skill.

2. Shields are the Progen Strength Build; Just like Terrans get Engines and Jenquai get Reactors **

** Although oddly the Seeker gets Devices which to me seems a little, odd.

3. Engines are the Progen Weakness; Just like Terrans can't build Reactors and Jenquai can't build shields.

4. Recharge Shields is the Privateer's answer to the Terran's Hull Patch Skill and whatever the respective Jenquai one that probably buffs up reactors. Now a removal of the Recharge Shields would call for Hull Patch to be removed from the Terran Trader and the respective skill to be removed from the Jenquai Seeker. In fact, in the original documents only the Explorer classes were to have these 'healing' ablities; but it was discovered with no Terran Scout in the game, no hull patch would disadvantage the whole game as a whole so they tagged it on to the Terran Trader.

5. Build devices - again, this was intended to be an Explorer only skill, but as point 4, with no Terran Scout in the game the terrans needed a way to supply their own devices. Please note the Privateer does not get Build Devices. I bet the Seeker's would prefer Build Reactors over Build Devices. Possibly this would encourage refined resources --> component --> device build interchange.

6. Trade classes have a weapon / device load out in the middle of the Warrior and Explorer. The Terran Scout originally was intended to have 3 weapons and 6 devices. This is quite understandable for a hit-and-run hull-patch missile specialist. So when we look at the Progen loadout:

Warrior: 6 Weapons / 3 Devices

Privateer: 5 Weapons / 4 Devices

Sentinel: 4 Weapons / 5 Devices

It should become obvious the reason for the weapon / device

7. Progen Reactors needed to be built (just like there may be a need for Jenquai engine builders should they have any potential new engines that are Jenquai Only). Its a factor of the game that a trader will not be able to build something.

8. In order to put in a new skill (now Marco may have to reply to this) but it is my understanding (from Marco) that a new skill requires to sacrifice 2 existing skills. True the Privateer still has 2 skill slots to use up...

9. Progen were originally meant to be good at dismantling; one of the races good a building (probably terrans) and one race good at analyzing (logical minds hmmmm). Now this could give a situation where the Terran is useless at analyzing or dismantling but once a build is known very good at building it; a Jenquai good at analyzing but mediocre at building or dismantling; and a Progen getting most or all of the parts from a dismantle; but give them something to analyze and they'll get problems and building isn't that good either!

Or as specified earlier: We are not looking to change stuff from live. Fortunately, this means that the Privateer will remain as is; in order to counter the TT. And by the same standard the TT and TS are very very lucky.

i'm sure there will be difference of opinions here but the design documents were thought out by DEVs who came before I joined the project so there is no bias on my part. Applying the dismantle / analyze / build rules though could have some very interesting outcomes, expecially when Progen and Terran people continually fail to analyze; Terran and Jenaquai people continually fail to get parts back (or get such low quality back); and Jenquai and Progen people continually get builds 20% less than a Terran Trader.

I expect some vocal replies, but my main thought is "you are opening a can of worms and a nerf bat for everyone if you continue critiscising this class"

[garblesoup]

Thank you for your post, Byakhee. Hopefully that will quell the angry mobs and their nerf-bats.

[bondct]

hopefully the post about befriend being the equiv to menace was a joke? menace mobs runs away and you shoot at it and it still runs away as you kick it butt... befriend you get all kissy kissy with the mob and as soon as you shoot it, it says oh yeah and shoots you back...

[nimr0dbbow[IS]]

I would have suggested for the Terran to give them a Bribe Skill:

Use xxxx Credits.

Target (another player)

Mobs (a number equal to your skill level) hostile to you in the vicinity of the skill range have a chance to switch their aggro to the (another player). I suspect this would make the Terrans more despised than the Privateer at this point.

I belive I just made Kyp laugh.

[garblesoup]

I would have suggested for the Terran to give them a Bribe Skill:

Use xxxx Credits.

Target (another player)

Mobs (a number equal to your skill level) hostile to you in the vicinity of the skill range have a chance to switch their aggro to the (another player). I suspect this would make the Terrans more despised than the Privateer at this point.

I belive I just made Kyp laugh.

I would SOOOOO max this skill, LOL.

[Hyri]

So... we can't question the designs of the 3 new classes?

[sykotikjackal]

We can question them but I don't think that expecting changes based on individual opinions (which are going to vary wildly) is very realistic. Personally I'm fine with the Privateers as they are, but I've never been at endgame so I can't really say much other than historically the name "Privateer" is relating to a true combat tradesman. In the countries their Letters of Marque were issued they were "Privateers," to rival nations they were frequently "Pirates," but that has no impact on game balance. Progen are more personal combat oriented it seems to the skill distro on the privateer actually seem balanced to me as a second line brick for partying. They can stick around and finesse shield healing on the group while doing some damage while the PWs can throw out even more lead.

But hey, I'm new and will shut up.

[Tyran]

Right there are a few misconceptions here.

1. Critical Targetting is a passive inherant Progen race skill just like Navigation is a Terran Skill.

---

---

4. Recharge Shields is the Privateer's answer to the Terran's Hull Patch Skill and whatever the respective Jenquai one that probably buffs up reactors. Now a removal of the Recharge Shields would call for Hull Patch to be removed from the Terran Trader and the respective skill to be removed from the Jenquai Seeker. In fact, in the original documents only the Explorer classes were to have these 'healing' ablities; but it was discovered with no Terran Scout in the game, no hull patch would disadvantage the whole game as a whole so they tagged it on to the Terran Trader.

5. Build devices - again, this was intended to be an Explorer only skill, but as point 4, with no Terran Scout in the game the terrans needed a way to supply their own devices. Please note the Privateer does not get Build Devices. I bet the Seeker's would prefer Build Reactors over Build Devices. Possibly this would encourage refined resources --> component --> device build interchange.

6. Trade classes have a weapon / device load out in the middle of the Warrior and Explorer. The Terran Scout originally was intended to have 3 weapons and 6 devices. This is quite understandable for a hit-and-run hull-patch missile specialist. So when we look at the Progen loadout:

Warrior: 6 Weapons / 3 Devices

Privateer: 5 Weapons / 4 Devices

Sentinel: 4 Weapons / 5 Devices

It should become obvious the reason for the weapon / device

---

---

9. Progen were originally meant to be good at dismantling; one of the races good a building (probably terrans) and one race good at analyzing (logical minds hmmmm). Now this could give a situation where the Terran is useless at analyzing or dismantling but once a build is known very good at building it; a Jenquai good at analyzing but mediocre at building or dismantling; and a Progen getting most or all of the parts from a dismantle; but give them something to analyze and they'll get problems and building isn't that good either!

Or as specified earlier: We are not looking to change stuff from live. Fortunately, this means that the Privateer will remain as is; in order to counter the TT. And by the same standard the TT and TS are very very lucky.

i'm sure there will be difference of opinions here but the design documents were thought out by DEVs who came before I joined the project so there is no bias on my part. Applying the dismantle / analyze / build rules though could have some very interesting outcomes, expecially when Progen and Terran people continually fail to analyze; Terran and Jenaquai people continually fail to get parts back (or get such low quality back); and Jenquai and Progen people continually get builds 20% less than a Terran Trader.

I expect some vocal replies, but my main thought is "you are opening a can of worms and a nerf bat for everyone if you continue critiscising this class"

Byakhee, perhaps you are the one with misconceptions here. To point them out:

1) TW does not have navigate, so how can navigate be a terran skill??

And why do the TW and JW have critical targeting if it's a "passive inherant Progen race skill"?

4) You got me confused here. Recharge shields is to a PP what hull patch is to a TT and reactor optimization is to a JT??

Last I checked all 3 traders have recharge shields which is the defining tradesman out-of-station skill, and not an equivalent of hull patch or reactor optimization.

5) Terrans needed a way to supply their own devices? Just like Progen got a way to supply their own reactors and jenquai a way to supply their own engines? C'mon you gotta do better than that m8.

Also during live the only two classes which could not build devices were TW and PW, so a TT did not have build devices out of necessity.

6) You base the weapon/device layout of the PP solely on a pattern, without looking at the gameplay repercussions. Are you a developer or what?

9) So get this:

- Progen traders will get used primarily to dismantle items...

- Jenquai trader have an advantage to analyze. In the case of an item with a rediculous drop rate - it's good, but only then.

- Once the Terran tradesman has the print he is much better off than the other traders, even if only on average his build% is a few % higher. People will actively seek the TT over other classes to build for them as the bulk of builds will be from gear that is not exceptionally rare.

This is very biased towards a superior TT - as if an extra build skill and being able to build both progen and jenquai equipment is not enough?

All devs are cool and we all respect them so no hard feelings Byakhee, but don't write while you're drunk pls

[Hyri]

Byakhee, perhaps you are the one with misconceptions here. To point them out:

1) TW does not have navigate, so how can navigate be a terran skill??

And why do the TW and JW have critical targeting if it's a "passive inherant Progen race skill"?

4) You got me confused here. Recharge shields is to a PP what hull patch is to a TT and reactor optimization is to a JT??

Last I checked all 3 traders have recharge shields which is the defining tradesman out-of-station skill, and not an equivalent of hull patch or reactor optimization.

5) Terrans needed a way to supply their own devices? Just like Progen got a way to supply their own reactors and jenquai a way to supply their own engines? C'mon you gotta do better than that m8.

Also during live the only two classes which could not build devices were TW and PW, so a TT did not have build devices out of necessity.

6)

9) So get this:

- Progen traders will get used primarily to dismantle items...

- Jenquai trader have an advantage to analyze. In the case of an item with a rediculous drop rate - it's good, but only then.

- Once the Terran tradesman has the print he is much better off than the other traders, even if only on average his build% is a few % higher. People will actively seek the TT over other classes to build for them as the bulk of builds will be from gear that is not exceptionally rare.

This is very biased towards a superior TT - as if an extra build skill and being able to build both progen and jenquai equipment is not enough?

All devs are cool and we all respect them so no hard feelings Byakhee, but don't write while you're drunk pls

I think he meant "Terrans get Negotiate". Could be wrong but i took it as a typo on his part.

Just take it at face value. There are so many flaws in the Dev's argument that it really doesn't make sense.

I did enjoy your statement of:

You base the weapon/device layout of the PP solely on a pattern, without looking at the gameplay repercussions.

My only conclusion is that the dev's are looking at something we're not, they must have information and future plans that none of us have seen. Maybe it will make more sense when they add the final skills to the new classes or maybe they intend to adjust all the classes or races slightly. Who knows what they're planning.

It isn't really a big issue tho. The only concern i have is if "One Warrior/Trader/Explorer is the outright best, that's all anyone will play". Currently the PP is the best Trader.

Edit: Typo.