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Hacking & Biorepression


SiSL

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Problem with those skills

 

Effect Their duration is shorter than their initialization time even on the highest 

 

I suggest their range and duration to be inline with another crowd control skill on another warrior PW skill "Gravity Link" for 42 skill points worth... 

Edited by SiSL
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kratz.gif

 

Charge up: 2.5s

Duration (at L7): 40s

40s?

 

Seriously weapon hacked NPC starts firing less than 10 secs later... Nowhere near 40s... Is there something else I don't know about? Like weapon stopping last 5 secs or something like that or "damage removes hacked state" or something?

 

If damage removes hacked state, why not gravity link question would follow :P

 

 

EDIT: Just tried L7 Hack on CL15 Chavez, as CL50... After a few tries it finally could hack them, 5 seconds later, Hack effect on them go and  in 10 seconds it starts refiring... (with not a single shot fired by me)

Edited by SiSL
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I just don't put points into Hacks nor BioRegression any more.  They failed some 90% of the time against mobs at same level, let alone higher level mobs, and do not work when we need them!  Unless the 2 skills are fixed to account for the SP sink they require, they are not worth it.

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In Live they were really only useful in two zones.  for bio-repression it was ardus for gazers and cloud riders and in DT for Scooter.  For Hack it was DT for the high level ships and boss guys.  These were all very high level mobs that required multiple players to effectively kill mobs. The rest of the time it really was not energy efficient for TE's to waste energy using the skill and staying so close to a mob.  Maybe if the EMU devs added a device that reduced the energy cost of these skills and/or increased their range they would be useful while leveling?

 

I think that the skill 'deactivation' on the mob should be the same install time as it is for players (though atm player install time is way faster than in Live).  If they changed the install time closer to live so that it took 30-45 seconds to install an item (depending on type) and these skills actually worked (they should not be based on mob Psi rating but simply the mobs CL vs the player's skill level).  In live the failure rate on these skills, on equal level mobs, was pretty low (I seem to recall maybe 1 fail in every 6 to 7 attempts but it was nowhere near 50%.

 

note for devs:  to avoid exploiting the skills Westwood made it so that a mob should not be completely hacked/biorepressed. I think it was no more than 2 items could be uninstalled at a time regardless of how many TE's were using the skill.  This basically resulted in a single TE being the 'debuff guy' similar to a JE.

Edited by Crichton
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note for devs:  to avoid exploiting the skills Westwood made it so that a mob should not be completely hacked/biorepressed. I think it was no more than 2 items could be uninstalled at a time regardless of how many TE's were using the skill.  This basically resulted in a single TE being the 'debuff guy' similar to a JE.


It is same here, not more than 2 equipment is hacked (max two of engines, reactors , devices, shields or weapons)  regardless how many TW's in group or tries, once hacked it is immune for a time... No change there

 

As Zack noted on Bug Tracker, 40s was bio repression, hack for engines is 10 seconds, weapons supposed to be 20 seconds, currently it is 10 seconds for anything and this is L7, 21 skill points worth, not to mention failure rates...

 

Let's compare Bio repression & Hacking skills with PW gravity link now, duration, range, resists, usability... They are crowd control skills in the end... 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3pST25EN5I

 

Here is CL50, OL150, L7 Hack skill vs. poor little CL10 InfinitiCorp ship...

 

And fail rate:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY7s-IymlBM

Edited by SiSL
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Gonna try to post this idea that I have attempted to do in other topics in the past, let's see if I can explain it better this time around.

 

Activated skills have/had an effect level gain of 5 levels per level  of skill.  That means, that each "level" accounts for 5 combat levels, so if your effective skill level (your base + any equipment style boosts) equals 10, you have a 50% chance of landing an activatable skill against the same level mob (which max cl 50, a level 50 mob).

 

Any level below that, that the mob is in comparison with your effective level, increased your chance to land that skill.  You were also capable of having effective levels over 10, so that for some, when using the skill you were were effectively a CL 60.

 

There was always a max of your success rate however, as in you'd still see failures at rediculous times (cl 50 effective level 10 against a cl 10 would fail 5 out of 100 uses).

 

Many activatable skills, especially those that interact to be used on mobs, are missing this.  It was also similar on devices that effect mobs, as in the higher the level of device, the better you chances to succeed against a higher level mob.  (A level 9 device had a base of 50% success on a level 45 mob).

 

Edited for  clarifications.  I hope I explained that well, can try to put it in other, or explain this concept more.

Edited by Willbonney
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In Live the only time you had a 50% failure rate, against an equal level mob, was if it had high Psi resists for menace and compulsory contemplation.  These were really the only skills that had much of a fail rate vs equal level mobs.  And debuffing the mob via a psi debuff device pretty much guaranteed a success.

 

Mobs being able to resist a lot of skills is fine if the mobs are not that dangerous but with the mass aggro having skills that fail this much equals skills that are never used and then CF'd.  I don't think the devs wants that.  So the balance has to be a fail rate that is much lower than 50%.  25% I could understand.......and then increase it as the mob level increases vs the player attacking it/using skills.

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That was because, for the skills you would often use, you had equipment to buff you past the level 10 effective level.  This was used for everything, and is why even ships are effective 9 (9 x 5 = 45 = 135 / 3) and all skills that go to level 9, require the level 45 of the proper skill (whether it's trade/explore/combat).

Edited by Willbonney
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YES! Patch says good news :) Can't wait to try out :)

 

Fixed: Dont allow mobs calling for help if silenced (hacking coms)
Fixed: Show additional chat-area message to player if Enrage/Taunt is failing 
Fixed: Chances and duration of Bio/Hack ability (scaling with skill level etc).
Fixed: Hacking mob's reactor and devices will actually do something now.
Changed: Mobs using HACK can temporary prevent the player from using any ability 

 

Ofcourse Mob hacks too. I do remember "Shield offline", "Reactor offline" warning sound still from live. Sounds very promising and nice :)

 

Thank you so much Zack investigating the underlying issues 

Edited by SiSL
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Feedback on actual playing with these skills now?  Let us know how they are doing. 

My First Impressions here goes (about hack) --

 

Let's start about changes for players who wants to know about it more:

 

- Shield hack now drains shield of enemy (or yourself if you got hacked), but your/mobs mitigations to energy is reducing this -- Duration: Instant

 

- Device hack now stops mob or you using special skills. Also stops mobs communicating with each other, which means less mobs hang around with it if you hack mob)  - Duration: 10 seconds

 

- Reactor hack used to do nothing, now takes mobs or your reactor offline for time being (basically no recharge as far as I viewed)  - Duration: 10 seconds

 

- Weapon hack: No need for description to it, but unlike others this is 20 seconds.... 

 

 

***

 

 

To start with I'm L150 and maxed with that skill L7 + Terran Advantage Hack Improvement at 200% (47% more chance to hack) :

 

- Great effects unless they are used on you by mobs. Basically I became sitting duck once hacked (which I like about challange --- removed all buffs, no movements, no firing nothing  :) )

 

- Shield drain really nice, Timer is perfect, Device being able to stop skills is perfect, can't quite test about what reactors doing without a data tho but no complaints so far  :) I think all seems really well balanced without overpowering neither player, nor mob.... 

 

- I know while chances are basically dice rolls, anything over your level basically non-hackable. I could not land a successfull hack on a CL56-58-60 drones on BBW (not sure if it is about resists or how low is my chance on these) I could test more but they kill me basically after a few tries or I run out of juice  :) (That's with Terran Advantage effect 47% more chance) 

 

However, not sure if you agree with me:

 

This skill unlike most other skills rather than progressive approach each has different abilities for targetted attacks

 

1. Hack Systems

2. Hack Weapons

3. Multi-Hack

4. Area hack Systems

5. Area Multi-hack

 

I'm wondering if each have same chance to hack when you are L7 or each considered different Levels? Since each have different targeted hack tries, hope it is same chances... 

 

I tested each have same durations at top level but not sure about chances, felt like Area multi-hack had more chance for sticking, however Area Multi-hack takes like 20% of top level reactor of Terran's L8's, not to mention aggroing near by mobs even friendlies  :) With firing of all missiles not many tries each time.

 

If each have same chance to stick then no problem, but if they are treated like low level skills and low chances then there might be a problem there on focusing or "targeted hacks"... (where I got this conclusion is when you use 'hack weapons' only, it also tires to hack other things too)

 

 

On the other hand, side suggestion : a mob ability review to prevent storywise conflictions... like Progen ships using Rally and Hacking, Terran ships using Gravity Link,  Organics to use hack etc.

 

 

Final note: Thank you for making 21 SP for hack + 21 SP for Biorepression worth to invest now even 2.5k max range for missile classes and makes us TW's forget lack of SP's to invest compared to other warriors  :) Didn't try Bios yet, will note them asap, Bio review might be a bit harder since hard to understand how many weapons mobs have or slowing down/disabling one... So it might be a bit over time... 

Edited by SiSL
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Greetings Everyone, TE Got some Loving Awesome.  Here's my opinion an observations about the skills.

 

From ST4 to Live I'll explain what skills I had to base my observations. In St4 I had only lvl 3 or 4 in Biorepression, and Hacking, it didn't help much or even land successful hits on Mobs, one out of 10 attempts landed I say, there for making the skills useless, and not worth investing points into, in fact, I was probably the only Individual that ran with PL's and Beams, along with ML's on the server, very few I say on ST4 that is.

 

On Live I said to myself, lets try something totally different, and run with Bio an Hack, and Enrage, and Repair, an all ML's My current lvls are 5 in them. in Bio, Hack, an Enrage, Repair is lvl 6, one more to max it out.

 

Before the patch to adjust the skills in this topic, they were still useless, 1 in 10 attempts landed a successful hit to Hack or Bio the Mobs, or Mob should I say, by then my Reactor was out of power to use the skills, in Enrage I say it's working as intended,  except for suppressing their Beams, or PL's, they still fire through it, but keep the TE as their target, Enrage reminds me of Painting the target really  :D  but argos the Mob for sure for a few seconds.

 

After the patch, am loving it, there's some tweaks I know, I say it's a better improvement over all from where we once been, 1 in 3 attempts lands a successful hit with Bio, an Hack, opposed to the latter Days of these skills, you all rock IMHO Thank you

 

​On a scale 1 to 10, I rate this improvement a 11 :)  

 

Thank you again

Brack

Edited by Brack
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Agreed with above, they are much improved now.

 

It is still really hard to successfully land a hack or biosupress on anything 3 or more levels above you however.  It drops from about a 1 out of 3 when it's same level, to about 1 out of 5 when it's 3 levels above.  Tried a mob 5 levels above, but after 18 attempts, had to warp out.  Both of these attempts were using hack, at cl 24, with no points at all in Hack or Biosupress.  I'll raise them up a little at a time and try to track things in a progressive manner.

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I haven't gone out and got myself hacked to test it, but per patch post I've got a concern.

It says:

Changed: Mobs using HACK can temporary prevent the player from using any ability

 

If it is doing as you are saying....there is a  problem. Are you defining "ability" as something using only  gear (i.e. weapons, devices, shield, reactor etc), or are you defining "ability" as being able to disrupt anything? If it is doing anything, than that is applying hack incorrectly. "Skills" are inherant abilities not dependant on gear, for example hack shouldn't "hack" menace skill, of hull patch skill, or recharge shield or cloak or powerdown or self destruct or teleport/ summon etc. etc. . It might hack the reactor recharge and make you have real hampered reactor juice to activate those skills, or hack shield and shield recharge don't "stick" to the pool etc. but it should never disallow your "skills".

 

If you are going to disable skills, then that needs to be a seperate mob ability simular to biorepress. Rolling a mob skill of hack/biorepress in one hit/resist is to overpowering a debuff, if a mob is to be able to do both, they need to seperate attck rolls for hits between the application attempt on both.

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I haven't gone out and got myself hacked to test it, but per patch post I've got a concern.

It says:

Changed: Mobs using HACK can temporary prevent the player from using any ability

 

If it is doing as you are saying....there is a  problem. Are you defining "ability" as something using only  gear (i.e. weapons, devices, shield, reactor etc), or are you defining "ability" as being able to disrupt anything? If it is doing anything, than that is applying hack incorrectly. "Skills" are inherant abilities not dependant on gear, for example hack shouldn't "hack" menace skill, of hull patch skill, or recharge shield or cloak or powerdown or self destruct or teleport/ summon etc. etc. . It might hack the reactor recharge and make you have real hampered reactor juice to activate those skills, or hack shield and shield recharge don't "stick" to the pool etc. but it should never disallow your "skills".

 

If you are going to disable skills, then that needs to be a seperate mob ability simular to biorepress. Rolling a mob skill of hack/biorepress in one hit/resist is to overpowering a debuff, if a mob is to be able to do both, they need to seperate attck rolls for hits between the application attempt on both.

Considering abilities are also SHIP properties, disabling entire ship making sense you can not use any ability (like when you are out of reactor) It's not player's own, but ship modification for you. 

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Considering abilities are also SHIP properties, disabling entire ship making sense you can not use any ability (like when you are out of reactor) It's not player's own, but ship modification for you. 

See but thats my point....hack, hacks a SYSTEM. There has to be something that gets hacked. So if the mob hacked your shield, it didn't hack your skill, it didn't hack your reactor, it didn't hack any number of things and shouldn't preclude you using any number of things it didn't hack. Skills are ABILITY based they have a PSI resist roll/resist, they are not gear. If it was gear based then even warriors could mine, everyone could menace, progen could summon and cloak, jenquia could grav link...get the point? Those are skills not gear thats been hacked, biorepress effects skills not gear. If the mob is to be able to hack and biorepress like a TE can, those are seperate and distinct skills/attacks. A TE don't have the biohackpression skill, neither should a mob. Let the mob do like every other mob/class has to do, roll for hack with a activation time/roll and biorepress with a activation time/roll.

 

If someone hacked your airconditioning, it wouldn't prevent you from opening a window, it would just let them stop the heat/cool or increase/lower the temp. It wouldn't stop you from walking to the fridge and getting a drink, even if they "multihacked" your house and the fridge wasn't working (like your reactor recharge rate) you could still get that soda.

 

Would a hack disrupt combat trance? thats a skill of the warrior concentrating..a mental skill. Would hack disrupt psi shield? Thats a mental disciple, read the discription, how about crit hit, thats also a skill of training, knowing were to hit to maximize dmg. Menace..read the discription..why would hack disrupt that..that is a skill, you are "scaring" them with your uberness. Cloak, read the discription..its a skill based ability of mental concentration to veil yourself. Now if you wanted to say hack knocked off-line gear that is enhancing a skill, yes that makes sense, so if you had say a sig lowering engine that got hacked, your sig should increase for the time the item was hacked, if you had a HDC device on and it got hacked, then yes your hull damage should increse for the time it was off-line. But to prevent a skill? no.

Edited by Mattsacre
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To take my post to another level of comprehension, gear is hacked, it is a system that is powered up and functioning it a prescribed manner, the enemy hacks it, it disrupts its computer "brains" from functioning as its programmed to do. A skill is a periodicly activated function, it's not "powered" up until called upon, even if it's a ship system dependant skill, it's brains weren't working at the time of hack to get scrambled, thats the charge up of a skill, you are calling it on-line to function.

 

A well known side effect of a nuclear blast is a EM pulse. Alpha, beta and gamma waves zip out in a ring from the nuclear blast and radiate things, the pulse disrupts electrcal/electronic systems functioning, close enough to the blast and the systems "fry" and will no longer function. With proper shielding some things can EM "hardened" to with stand this pulse, if electrical systems were inert at the time of the pulse they aren't effected. Hack is sort of the same effect, you are sending a blast of scrambling signals into the enemies electronics to disrupt their proper functioning of its programming, if the system wasn't on line at the time it was pulsed, it couldn't conduct that pulse to get scrambled.

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A well known side effect of a nuclear blast is a EM pulse. Alpha, beta and gamma waves zip out in a ring from the nuclear blast and radiate things, the pulse disrupts electrcal/electronic systems functioning, close enough to the blast and the systems "fry" and will no longer function. With proper shielding some things can EM "hardened" to with stand this pulse, if electrical systems were inert at the time of the pulse they aren't effected. Hack is sort of the same effect, you are sending a blast of scrambling signals into the enemies electronics to disrupt their proper functioning of its programming, if the system wasn't on line at the time it was pulsed, it couldn't conduct that pulse to get scrambled.

 

I'll give you a simpler example...

 

You are playing the game, powers went down or your battery died, voila, no longer playing the game, nothing you can do in short period of time will bring it back. All player abilities require "reactor" power, reactor is offline, nothing you can do, simple... no need complex stuff for that... 

 

Anyway, back to main subject, Zack, can you take a look about Terran Advantage like effects 47% hack chance is adding to formula? Higher levels not seem to get anything hacked or so for long long tries...

Edited by SiSL
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Every abilitiy you can do is done with the systems of your ship (you are no Jedi..or PSI).

If a mob is hacking your ship, it can prevent you from "firing" any ability.

So hack should work on bio mobs then per this argument.

Take the gas bags in VT as an example, they had shield recharge skills, and self destruct. should we be able to "hack" those skills with hack and not biorepression?

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I'll give you a simpler example...

 

You are playing the game, powers went down or your battery died, voila, no longer playing the game, nothing you can do in short period of time will bring it back. All player abilities require "reactor" power, reactor is offline, nothing you can do, simple... no need complex stuff for that... 

but you see...the reactor isn't off line, the recharge is off line, the energy is there and can be accessed. If they hack your reactor and not your weapons, the weapons keep firing!...But your argument is that the reactor is off line, everything that needs power shouldn't be getting it (gonna suck that life support stops functioning BTW..suck vacumm dude :)). The power of your ship is sort of a huge capacitor, the reactor constantly charges it at a set rate, you draw off the "battery" or capacitor of the reactor to charge your skills/gear. Just because the generator(reaction recharge) of the capacitor isn't charging don't make the battery stop discharging. Thats why folks get the battery powered radios in case of a disaster, just because the power goes out in a storm don't stop you from using the radio...you thought ahead and were smart planning for an emergency, you got a battery powered one.

 

If I hack your car, your engine stops, and the power of the engine don't get to the drive train to propel your car, the tires stop turning, the alternator don't turn becuase the fan belts don't turn it becuase the engine stopped......but the power is still in that battery....you can turn on your window wipers, you can turn on the turn signal, they weren't on when i hacked your engine. The wipers, the turn signals, the horn..they aren't "systems" they are on/off switchs, power either does/doesn't flow to them to activate them.

 

A skill is a on/off switch, it isn't a "system". A reactor is a system, with a battery, the battery is charged it has potential. A shield is a system, it takes power and disperses it in a force field to mitigate damage. Weapons are systems, they have targeting and tracking computers to track enemies and then computer switches that activate and power the damage dishing items. Devices are systems with computer brains charged and activated awaiting the signal to disperse its function, that computer can be hacked to disrupt that potential. If a light switch was not on at the time of hacking, and you have battery power to it, when you trip the switch..you get light...it's like MAG
IC
dude....those imps in there must be turning that crank real fast...hope they don't get hungry any time soon :)

Edited by Mattsacre
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Is it just me, or yesterday's patch also caused Rally to have a shorter duration and drain more energy?

 

May be SiSL (and the guy complaining about the beam range) should heed Zackman's advice of stop reporting these "anomalies" because the nerf bat will strike again!!!!

Edited by VincentTH
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Is it just me, or yesterday's patch also caused Rally to have a shorter duration and drain more energy?

 

May be SiSL (and the guy complaining about the beam range) should heed Zackman's advice of stop reporting these "anomalies" because the nerf bat will strike again!!!!

 

Rally is same as it is... 300 Reactor Power for Top-level Stealth Tactics, if you feel there is a bug report it... May be we should just leave class signature abilities broken... 

Edited by SiSL
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