Diffaculty

[Tienbau]

do the latest mods help?

They would apply to any projectile and missile weapons, although you won't notice as much with missiles.

I detailed the change I made in the PW projectile turbo thread in developer support/progen forum.

Also sap is working a bit better now too.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='HellHas' timestamp='1325224146' post='50610']
In a raid setting is what we were talking about even leveled toons... Warriors should never be beaten by an explorer class. Can you agree on that?
[/quote]

All things being roughly equal, the warrior should win a straight DPS contest.

I just find it incredibly hard to believe that even with Shield Leech & Combat Cloak, that a JE can out DPS a PW, when both players are playing their toons with roughly equal skill.

The PW simply has too many advantages over the JE, not just being able to hang tough much longer, but having 2x the weapons, at least 70% critical targeting (while the JE tops around 30% for what he can get from his own equipment), Shield Sap, and if they're using Plasma benefitting from the JE's debuffer use just as much as the JE. (Not sure if range penalties on beams apply in emulator like they did in Live.)

It's a lot easier to believe that something in the game calculations is wrong as far as the damage output of the PW. Meaning I could entertain the possiblity that some of the PWs damage is somehow not being counted. I would find it hard to believe that the JE is overpowered in combat.

[kjeron]

The "Target Destroyed" message is not an accurate indicator of who did the most damage. Use the /loot command to see who really did the most.

[Himmelweiss]

The only thing that makes this EMU difficult are the many linked mobs.
Not because of the mobs itself, but because the result of so many linked mobs simply is "super lag".
That in return makes it impossible to target/shoot and useing any of your skills.
You are actually very lucky if you can manage to warp out in such an situation.

Why are the mobs so heavily linked anyway?
Why do mobs not lose aggro if i warp out?
Why is the normal content at some points harder than any current raids?

Don't make the entire game to hard, that's what raids are for.
Normal content should be somewhat enjoyable, and not break your client or even the server because 20+ mobs warp/move to you out of nowhere.

So, as it stands now, i have to agree with the OP.

I can't say anything about PW nerfs and what not, but if a JD or even a JE outfights a PW in long term then there is indeed something wrong.

You said you do have only 2 or 3 coders.
Here is a suggestion, how about releasing the up-to-date code for everyone to download, so developers like myself who are programming since many many years (17 years on my part) can set up their own server with the current code to help you guys figure out & fix some nifty bugs.
As far i can tell, the last SVN is way outdated, if i'm wrong then i'm sorry.

[HellHasArrived]

[quote name='Himmelweiss' timestamp='1325269907' post='50641']
The only thing that makes this EMU difficult are the many linked mobs.
Not because of the mobs itself, but because the result of so many linked mobs simply is "super lag".
That in return makes it impossible to target/shoot and useing any of your skills.
You are actually very lucky if you can manage to warp out in such an situation.

Why are the mobs so heavily linked anyway?
Why do mobs not lose aggro if i warp out?
Why is the normal content at some points harder than any current raids?

Don't make the entire game to hard, that's what raids are for.
Normal content should be somewhat enjoyable, and not break your client or even the server because 20+ mobs warp/move to you out of nowhere.

So, as it stands now, i have to agree with the OP.

I can't say anything about PW nerfs and what not, but if a JD or even a JE outfights a PW in long term then there is indeed something wrong.

You said you do have only 2 or 3 coders.
Here is a suggestion, how about releasing the up-to-date code for everyone to download, so developers like myself who are programming since many many years (17 years on my part) can set up their own server with the current code to help you guys figure out & fix some nifty bugs.
As far i can tell, the last SVN is way outdated, if i'm wrong then i'm sorry.
[/quote]
They been down that road...

[Tienbau]

I have an idea, why don't we just get the game running super-smooth. There! problem solved, I'm surprised no-one else has ever thought of that. What are these so-called devs doing anyway?

[Warlock[IS]]

You been smoking that Chavez Herbal Medicine again?

[Mimir[IS]]

I for one appreciate the efforts and interest in the plight of the weakened PW that TB has shown. For this I thank you. And award you with your very own;

[Himmelweiss]

[quote name='Tienbau' timestamp='1325287100' post='50651']
I have an idea, why don't we just get the game running super-smooth. There! problem solved, I'm surprised no-one else has ever thought of that. What are these so-called devs doing anyway?
[/quote]

Nothing wrong with that. And i'm sure the devs do what they can in their free time.
However, i would rearrange the order of the todo-list thought.

If you want to have a smooth running game i would focus on some other things first before trying to balance the classes. Because that alone can eat alot of coder-power and in the end most of it will result in wasted time.

So why is it wrong to "try" to balance things now and why is it wasted development time?
Here a couple examples:
- mob A.I. you can't balance classes if the mob A.I. isn't even working yet as intended
- raids, actually same as mob A.I.
- perfomance, you can't balance classes if several situations lags out the client or even the server
- content, you can't balance classes if not all currently known skills, items have a basic working setup
- general gameplay features, get those up first (collision detection on planets, looting rights). Alot of simple yet still important features are not working.

And even if you can manage to balance it somehow now, it will be to 90% a wasted time, you will go over and over the same code several times everytime you change/add/modify mob A.I., items, perfomance issues, missing skills, missions, raids and what not.

Get a basic setup up first, once that's done, you are good to go for bug-fixing and balancing stuff.
Top priority should be perfomance at all cost. That's where EA failed. Ultra bad perfomance is what killed the game in the past.

Don't get me wrong, the current perfomance is awesome, but for example, try to figure out why 10 - 20+ mobs in one place make it unplayable for the players. I don't even want to know how bad it is on the tada-o gate (that is if the raid is working already as on live where you needed 3 - 5 groups to actually do anything there).
It can't be just a server hardware issue either, so even if you upgrade your current server, all perfomance issues will be still there.
You can rent a root server for 100€ that could handle 2k - 5k players easily. You can rent several servers for 1000€+ that can handle 20k - 50k players. Won't help if just 1 line in the server code causes trouble for the processing threads, threads queue or whatever. Blah blah, you get the idea. You guys are probably a PRO in that department. But i just wanted to point it out anyway.

And to the perfomance and the 10 - 20+ mobs situation.
To me it looks like that either:
a) too much stuff is sent forth and back between client/server at once, or> B) the server code is bad at multithreading or not even capable of doing so, or
c) that simply everything runs out of sync at some point or even
d) server doesn't know the difference between asynchronous network actions and synchron network actions. or
e) the actions get stacked up and the server code can't handle A LOT of actions well in milliseconds which in return results in a hot "omg i'm stuffed, what to do, what to do.." queue manager. Or last but not least
f) a bit of everythg :P

You say, you want a smooth game, i'm for sure not against it.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

He was being facetious because of the previous "grumble, grumble" posts following his last one, just in case that wasn't too clear.

Many times from a player perspective, you don't understand that we [b]ARE TRYING [/b]to fix these things you mention.

[quote name='Himmelweiss']
- mob A.I. you can't balance classes if the mob A.I. isn't even working yet as intended
- raids, actually same as mob A.I.
- perfomance, you can't balance classes if several situations lags out the client or even the server
- content, you can't balance classes if not all currently known skills, items have a basic working setup
- general gameplay features, get those up first (collision detection on planets, looting rights). Alot of simple yet still important features are not working. [color="#444444"]
[font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"][/quote][/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]
[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]- Mob AI & Raids has been worked with already, its not perfect but we have structures in there as a baseline. We can't make them 100% polished without completing other tasks.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]- Performance to some extent is simply limitations of the client, and even if we had all of EA's horses, and all of EA's men, we couldn't put it back together again.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]- All skills should already have a mission, as far as I know all Terran ones do, although I am aware that the hull upgrades are broken since Rojomuerte updated them and added the scout skills. I just finished converting them on dev, and am waiting for a few server debug/fixes so I can correct them permanently for the next patch.[/font][/color]
[color="#444444"][font="Tahoma, Verdana, Arial,"]- general gameplay features? What's not working? Specifics please. (I can look, and excepting collision detection, most other flight seems normal... dunno if you're aware of this but programming for 3d spaces isn't a walk in the park. )[/font][/color]

[Himmelweiss]

I have been a part in any programming the past decade, there is almost nothing i have not seen yet, so yeah i understand very well that 3d space, expecially in an realtime multiplayer application isn't a walk in the park.
And just to make one thing clear, what you guys have pulled off here is just an amazing work, expecially since you do it in your free time!

Anyways, if the client is one or even the main reason which limits perfomance, then i can just simply say "doh!" :/ Sucks, there is not much you can do about it other than maybe rethink the strategy on the current heavy linked mobs since those get the client to the limits
But no idea then what tricks you can pull off for raids. Because those shouldn't be too easy. And it is quite normal for a raid to have many mobs active in one place.

I guess there is no way to get a decompiled client from EA if you do not have atleast 100.000$ to offer?
Would be great if you guys could even work on the client, my god what a dream that is.


With general gameplay features i meant things like "loot restrictions", doesn't seem to work in a group. But maybe it is not simply implemented yet. If i turn it off everyone in the group should be able to loot a corpse/hulk right on.
Okay, that example was a bit out of place in my previous post, maybe just ignore that one since it is not as important as everything else.

[Kyp [LDEV]]

Essentially yeah, most of what you guys have now has been the result of years of Tienbau's programming experience and creative trickery of the client. EA won't even entertain the discussion to tell us how much they would take, they've just blown us off in the past.

As for the systems, what I guess I meant was details about what you would expect and then an explanation of what's happening now and perhaps what the main difference is? Those are the kinda details that matter to a game dev.

We'd be happy to fix those things, just need reasonable suggestions and time to consider how they might or might not affect the overall structure of the game.

However, just so you know we're 3 tasks from going alpha/beta mainly where it becomes all about balance.

[Terrell [BT]]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1325354574' post='50706']


However, just so you know we're 3 tasks from going alpha/beta mainly where it becomes all about balance.
[/quote]

Is one of those tasks a unique skill for the PT? Or would that be an alpha/beta type thing?

[rabidkiller]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1325354574' post='50706']
However, just so you know we're 3 tasks from going alpha/beta mainly where it becomes all about balance.
[/quote]


can't wait to see that lol

[Kyp [LDEV]]

[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1325355456' post='50707']
Is one of those tasks a unique skill for the PT? Or would that be an alpha/beta type thing?
[/quote]

A dev never codes & tells... at least not until its released.

[quote name='rabidcajun']
can't wait to see that
[/quote]

Me either... ;P

[Himmelweiss]

[quote name='Kyp' timestamp='1325359987' post='50710']
A dev never codes & tells... at least not until its released.

[/quote]

Hey now, that's not true, take a look at Stardock just to give a random example