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Jenq Seeker - swap fold space or cloak for shield leech

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I was thinking about the reactor optimisation graphics, i was thinking a short of glow or electrical discharge around the centre of the ship might be better>? That also lead to me thinking about a possible ability. Part of this class is the reactor optimisation, so how about a skill that affects the reactor directly to do damage to ships?

So Initiate Overload (or something like that) cause enemy reactor to overload cause x damage to ship hull for y seconds, z cd? (if damage to hull while shields up too strong maybe just damage to shields then hull, or just shields? as a down side with its reactor overloading it the enemy might have more energy until the effect wears off at which point the reactor would need a little time to recover?

Or you could overload your own reactor to give faster firing rates (or damage) for x % y sec and z cd, recovery period at the end for a few sec?

These would be unique.

Yeah, my point was that the graphic has been subdued a little compared to what it was at first by toning down the colors on the higher levels. They may be limited on what they can choose from for graphics. I wouldn't have a problem with the different graphic you proposed, if the game allows the devs to implement such a graphic. Maybe it's just me, but femmy graphics seem to fit this particular class. Now if it was the graphic for one of the warrior's skills, or the PT, I'd agree it was inapropriate.

Don't know about such a skill that increases the DPS of the JT, maybe something that helps her groupmates with such, but that seems to be more PT in it's effect, than JT. Now if the JT had a L135 skill, or a line of devices, that could make her and her groupmates' (activated) skill or device use more efficent, that would fit with the class a bit better than trying to improve her DPS. Making skill use more effencient could consist of one or two of the following:

  1. Faster cast time

  2. Longer duration (skills like Rally that last for specific time frames)

  3. Less likely to be resisted

  4. Less energy use

  5. Less likely to be interrupted

  6. More range

Making Devices use more efficent could be 1 of the following:

  1. Shorter cooldown

  2. less energy use

  3. more range

  4. more likely to hit

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there is a JS only L8 shield in the DB that seems like it would drop with the other 2 jenpie shields from the mordana, not sure if it was left out cause it didnt drop in live or what, but yeah all 3 of the classes that werent released in live are mostly sol on gear for their class

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there is a JS only L8 shield in the DB that seems like it would drop with the other 2 jenpie shields from the mordana, not sure if it was left out cause it didnt drop in live or what, but yeah all 3 of the classes that werent released in live are mostly sol on gear for their class

Definitely true, most so for the PT. As far as I know the JT has 3 pieces of equipment specifically for her, 2 L2 items (Bandy's Boosters & Sharim Shields, given in training) and the Sharim Prototype Shield. According to the DB RankoTT can build the L8 shield for the JT. The Scout has the Sniper Weapon, and the Hyperian Frontier's Friend (if it's dropping), but it's non-manufacturable. The PT gets by because it's a combat orientated class, and there's Progen equipment that's not class specific for them to choose from.

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I have a 150 toon in all the classes except JS and TS, I find the TS lots of fun and will have one at 150 in the future. I have started a JS 3 times now and deleted them, I find they are missing something. Although they are not a warrior and I understand that, as one posted swap fold space for something. I would say Crit targeting IMO would make the JS way more fun to play.

Still only 4 weapons like the TT, 1 less than PP which has crit Targeting. JMO on the matter guys, I feel the JS needs something. Also please look at the Reactor Surge Graphics, lots of people including myself think they are a little much.

Keep up the good work Devs and GMs and thanks for our game back.

That's the feeling I get too. I will say that now that I have L5 beams and combat cloak going, it feels much much better to fight with. I haven't played the other classes (or any class really) all the way up, but before this point, when I grouped with another trader of the same level range, I was clearly outclassed in combat terms. 3 x L4 oguns are way > than 3 x L4 Ocelots, and they don't need 25 explore levels for Combat Cloak and constant combat cloak/shield recharge skill management to get that effectiveness, they just turn on the launchers and fly around. I'm not even going to bring the PP into this lol.

So yeah - before CL18, this class is weak to play up CLs. Even after, it's way weaker than the other classes and feels gimped until you get both CL24, EL25 and good guns. I haven't compared it in its current state to a TT with L5 MLs yet, but I will when I can.

But even if Jenq Seeker becomes equal in combat power to TT, it still takes constant combat cloaking and timing shield recharges to fight effectively. Now to be clear, I like that aspect. I believe all classes should have to actively be played in combat. But if another class that's supposed to be equivalent has it easier, then I have to say it'd be justifiable for the Jenq Seeker player to be getting something more out of the extra effort they have to put in.

TL:DR version - the Jenq Seeker should be the #2 in combat power because it takes active work and constant skill activations and timing to fight effectively. Swapping one of their defensive/buff skills for an offensive one from the Explore side would be my choice as to how to accomplish this.

TT should be in third place because they got easy-mode kiting, and Progen first because they're warriors and also need to do front-line combat management (although I question if giving a shield-recharging class Shield Inversion is an "I Win" button for them - but that's another discussion).

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I don't agree that the JT is "gimped" per-se to her specific role in combat. She's a support char first & foremost, her skills are adequate to the tasks she needs to do, as far as levelling up is concerned. While she'll likely get an affiliation skill at some point in the future, it will be at the rank of Huangdi'Jeu. The only changes I could support to her existing skills would be switching Engine 9 Device 8 to Engine 8 Device 9, (more utility in device 9 than engine 9) and raising Scan from 5 to 7 (gives her scan equal to the JW, including scan sharing). I don't think that Fold Space should go away, it's a good skill, if you use it properly. I don't think that the JT needs more DPS, or another offensive skill. I don't have a problem with her having more choices in what she can put in those weapon & device slots, but it's unlikely that all the equipment a JT will get before the game goes "live" is in game yet. May not even be in the database yet.

JT even without some of her best equipment working properly, and her FS skill only working partially, can solo the things she needs to be able to, but she'll be better when her Coma device works properly. When she can effectively stop the mob from hitting back, with the right equipment & tactics, it really doesn't matter what her DPS is, so long as she can use weapons of a damage type that the mob isn't immune to. She'll need to use a low sig engine, but if you're using a Jenquai in combat with an engine that is not low sig, you're not making good choices in your equipment. It's a demanding class to play, particularily in combat with L8 shields max (shield upgrades 10 levels later than L9 shield users), and being unable to use Missile tech, but it's not a bad class when the skills and equipment are all in and working properly. Her support role many need more definition, via equipment choices, but I don't think she needs another offensive skill, or to lose a defensive skill.

Might be a better idea to do an assessment of the JT, when much more class specific equipment is in game. All 3 of the new classes are lacking there.

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The only changes I could support to her existing skills would be switching Engine 9 Device 8 to Engine 8 Device 9, (more utility in device 9 than engine 9) and raising Scan from 5 to 7 (gives her scan equal to the JW, including scan sharing). I don't think that Fold Space should go away, it's a good skill, if you use it properly.

/agree

All good suggestions.

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I don't agree that the JT is "gimped" per-se to her specific role in combat. She's a support char first & foremost, her skills are adequate to the tasks she needs to do, as far as levelling up is concerned. While she'll likely get an affiliation skill at some point in the future, it will be at the rank of Huangdi'Jeu. The only changes I could support to her existing skills would be switching Engine 9 Device 8 to Engine 8 Device 9, (more utility in device 9 than engine 9) and raising Scan from 5 to 7 (gives her scan equal to the JW, including scan sharing). I don't think that Fold Space should go away, it's a good skill, if you use it properly. I don't think that the JT needs more DPS, or another offensive skill. I don't have a problem with her having more choices in what she can put in those weapon & device slots, but it's unlikely that all the equipment a JT will get before the game goes "live" is in game yet. May not even be in the database yet.

JT even without some of her best equipment working properly, and her FS skill only working partially, can solo the things she needs to be able to, but she'll be better when her Coma device works properly. When she can effectively stop the mob from hitting back, with the right equipment & tactics, it really doesn't matter what her DPS is, so long as she can use weapons of a damage type that the mob isn't immune to. She'll need to use a low sig engine, but if you're using a Jenquai in combat with an engine that is not low sig, you're not making good choices in your equipment. It's a demanding class to play, particularily in combat with L8 shields max (shield upgrades 10 levels later than L9 shield users), and being unable to use Missile tech, but it's not a bad class when the skills and equipment are all in and working properly. Her support role many need more definition, via equipment choices, but I don't think she needs another offensive skill, or to lose a defensive skill.

Might be a better idea to do an assessment of the JT, when much more class specific equipment is in game. All 3 of the new classes are lacking there.

/disagree

This thread is not about whether the JT is balanced at Level 150. If the class is problematic to play at any level at all, that's a design issue that needs to be addressed. This thread is about what a pain the JT is to level in combat for the first HALF OF ITS ENTIRE GAMEPLAY.

Points that have not been contested (and therefore, I'm reading as accepted):

The other traders far outclass the JT in combat effectiveness during this period. Despite one of them (TT) actually being DESIGNED to be nerfed in combat and given superior trade and buff skills in return.

You cannot count on having a combat group available any time you get a mission to kill something, or need to kill something for parts to print, or just want to go kill something to level in combat like the OTHER classes can do. Therefore, every class is going to need to be effective in solo combat.

It's indisputable that eventually, due to superior reactor, cloak and shield recharge, the JT CAN kill what it needs to. Eventually. The sheer time it takes is what makes the combat aspect less than fun to play - you get a mission to kill 20 of something, it's going to take a lot longer than with other "equivalent" classes.

I know this doesn't really affect all the multi-boxing, min-maxing metagamers, because they're never actually going to PLAY the class. They'll just powerlevel it in formation with the "real" classes so they can multibox it in raids. Of course, they'll REPRESENT that they "played" it because they have one in a character slot, but really... no, they didn't. And that's why they don't care what it's like to play either.

I note that when you get to the character creation screen for the Jenquai Trader, it does not say "Support Class Only. If you intend to play this class, be prepared to suck at everything but riding on another class's coattails". Therefore, since there is no such warning, people are likely to actually believe that the class was designed to be fun to play ALL ON ITS OWN, click the button and invest their time and energy into it.

What do you think those players should do when they find out that no matter how good a player they are or how much commitment they've put in, they're always going to be second-class citizens in game because of what they clicked on the character selection screen?

Design every class right. Make it fun to play at all levels. And never listen to people who think other players should be happy to level an entire class up just to "support" the REAL classes. That's not fair to those players, and they are the ones who decide whether the game is a success or failure.

/done, better things to do now

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Maybe the easy way to solve this would be to alter the order they get weapon/device slots through HU's. I think the current order is:

L0 , L10, L30, L50, L75, L100, L135

1:2, 1:3, 2:3, 2:4, 3:4, 3:5, 4:5

switch it to:

1:2, 2:2, 2:3, 3:3, 3:4, 4:4, 4:5

They would progress more evenly, getting combat cloak inbetween the HU's with weapon slots, instead of getting both at the same time, on a toon with balanced CL/TL/EL.

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@wootage

You haven't really argued that the class in particular has a weakness, just that you personally feel it's harder to level combat-wise relative to other traders during some points of your leveling process. And while it's not necessarily ideal to balance around L150 (may be re-balance at the major hulls, 30, 75, 135), worrying about combat balance when you're level 3/4 guns is just as pointless. Even if you don't powerlevel (does this even work?) or multibox, solo combat for a JT is pretty darn easy, just don't be stupid about it.

A TT may be able to one/two salvo mobs that take a JT several rounds to kill, but the nature of Jenq gameplay pretty much puts you right next to the corpse. JTs can farm non-stop and loot as well without breaking a sweat. If you need to thrust to the corpse to loot it, you're doing it wrong and also probably why you're having such trouble as you're gimping your dps due to range. TTs (and PPs to some extent) almost universally have to impulse to the corpse to loot, thus wasting time and overall evening out in the long run.

I've said this before as well, if YOU find that YOUR level 5 guns/kit versus a TT's level 5 guns/kit are equal, then it's a gear problem for level 4 guns/kit. If you find that your level X kit versus a TT/PT's level X kit is weak at all stages, then that's a definite problem. Do you have evidence that says it's hard at all comparable gear levels or only within certain tiers?

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/disagree

This thread is not about whether the JT is balanced at Level 150. If the class is problematic to play at any level at all, that's a design issue that needs to be addressed. This thread is about what a pain the JT is to level in combat for the first HALF OF ITS ENTIRE GAMEPLAY.

Points that have not been contested (and therefore, I'm reading as accepted):

The other traders far outclass the JT in combat effectiveness during this period. Despite one of them (TT) actually being DESIGNED to be nerfed in combat and given superior trade and buff skills in return.

You cannot count on having a combat group available any time you get a mission to kill something, or need to kill something for parts to print, or just want to go kill something to level in combat like the OTHER classes can do. Therefore, every class is going to need to be effective in solo combat.

It's indisputable that eventually, due to superior reactor, cloak and shield recharge, the JT CAN kill what it needs to. Eventually. The sheer time it takes is what makes the combat aspect less than fun to play - you get a mission to kill 20 of something, it's going to take a lot longer than with other "equivalent" classes.

I know this doesn't really affect all the multi-boxing, min-maxing metagamers, because they're never actually going to PLAY the class. They'll just powerlevel it in formation with the "real" classes so they can multibox it in raids. Of course, they'll REPRESENT that they "played" it because they have one in a character slot, but really... no, they didn't. And that's why they don't care what it's like to play either.

I note that when you get to the character creation screen for the Jenquai Trader, it does not say "Support Class Only. If you intend to play this class, be prepared to suck at everything but riding on another class's coattails". Therefore, since there is no such warning, people are likely to actually believe that the class was designed to be fun to play ALL ON ITS OWN, click the button and invest their time and energy into it.

What do you think those players should do when they find out that no matter how good a player they are or how much commitment they've put in, they're always going to be second-class citizens in game because of what they clicked on the character selection screen?

Design every class right. Make it fun to play at all levels. And never listen to people who think other players should be happy to level an entire class up just to "support" the REAL classes. That's not fair to those players, and they are the ones who decide whether the game is a success or failure.

/done, better things to do now

Those points are contested, you've simply ignored said contesting. Your complaints are not accepted, they're rejected.

To spell out more simply, that what has already been pointed out: As a JT you will use stealth in combat, rather than firepower. Your signature will be lower than that of the other classes making you harder to detect, you can cloak to avoid detection, you can teleport yourself away from danger or teleport the danger away from you, and starting at Device Tech 3 you can even blind your enemies to reduce/avoid return fire as well as weaken their resistances to the types of damage you're most likely to be using. Your weaknesses will be Poor shields, Poor armor, and limited firepower. This has been pointed out to you earlier in thread, you simply aren't using what the class can do to your advantages if you're trying to play her like she's a Terran or Progen. She's a Jenquai, and should be played as such.

It was also pointed out earlier that when you are leveling your JT, don't try to kill things over your CL, instead kill things a two or three levels below your CL, since you can kill them faster than things over your CL. That is a more efficent way to level CL. You should also keep EL and TL ahead of CL for any Jenquai toon, regardless of class, as your equipment will be better that way.

If you're doing Jobs, you should not be doing jobs that send you to fight things that are of higher CL than you are. If you're doing NPC missions, you also need to take into consideration the level of things you're fighting against.

The toon even at lower levels or higher levels is going to do less damage than a TT, and definitely less than a PT. DPS isn't the JT's role at any level. Instead you use different techniques for playing the class, even at levels as low as L30, when you debuffer use first comes into play. This is how the class is supposed to be played. She's a support toon, whether you're playing at low level, mid level, or high level.

TTs and PTs for example don't get to blind their opponents, JT's do, starting at OL30 not a high level, or have you missed this earlier?. If your enemy can't hit back, and you can do damage on him, you win.

Fold-Kiting as a combat tactic becomes available at EL5, also a low level, and is useful from EL5 to max level, you should take the time to master it (even works for JW and JE as well). You'll likely get EL5 during Sharim training, if not shortly thereafter. It only requires you spend 3 points on Fold Space. This tactic works so long as you're not hunting in Ardus, as Ardus mobs were immune to teleportation in Live, and not below EL5 as Teleport Enemy requires EL5. (All levels after EL5, low, medium, and high)

If you need something for a print, you're a Trader, trade with another player for it. If you are low on cash, either do trade runs to build your cash reserves, or farm mobs that you can kill easily and vendor their junk loot. You get the Negotiate skill so you can make more money selling to NPCs use it (you can build your cash reserves faster). That's what you're supposed to do with this particular class. Trade, combat support, with some explorer skills thrown in as racial traits. (Scan 5) The more combat orientated classes should be the one's doing most of the killing for drops, although you do have the ability to help them. More ways to help them, via equipment, would be fine but more DPS the class doesn't need to fufill her role.

Seems to me you just want the JT to have more firepower, and are ignoring her other abilities to compensate for her lack thereof. When you can do the things a JT can do on the equipment available to her, firepower become less relevant to leveling. It would likely be unbalanced for the JT (The Explorer orientated Trader) to have as much firepower as the TT (The pure Trader), while also possessing superior debuffers, superior reactors, superior scanners, superior stealth abilities (lower base sig, cloak), and comparable escape ability (Navigate 5 v Fold Space 5). On top of all that, the JT doesn't even have all her equipment as of yet.

(Maybe Kenu needs to comment on whatever lovin' the JT has coming her way before the game is ready for live)

Metagaming or multiboxing has nothing to do with leveling my JT, she was my first toon to reach 150 in ST3 and ST4. (not to mention all my toons that are 100+ are on the same account as my JT, the only toon over L75 on my other account is my TW, and most of his levels are from Trade Runs & Explore Jobs so he can build weapons and engines.) If anything she supported my non-Progen toons by building reactors for them and comps for those things she couldn't build. Used combat against mobs, trade runs, later jobs, almost all of which was solo play. Equipment and tactics are important for playing a Jenquai toon. Will probably be more so after balancing is done for the classes.

If you need to kill 20 of something that are over your CL, then you probably aren't ready for the mission as of yet, and need to level up more for it. If you're of higher level, and you need to do a mission that requires you to kill 20 of something over CL50, you need to get some people to help you, the same as if you were doing the mission with a JE of comparable level. You should not expect the JT to be able to kill as quickly as more combat orientated classes, she's an explore-orientated Trader. In combat in this game it's usually Warrior > Trader > Explorer. JW's can hit very hard, but are made of glass compared to TW and PW, JE has to improvise compared to PE and TE (both other explorers are more powerful), JT has to improvise compared to TT and PT. (T=Trader, E=Explorer, & W=Warrior for the purposes of my posts)

Games do give players the ability to bite off more than they can chew, it requires good judgement on the part of the player, in addition to skill, to avoid being killed. That's why you can fly to Cooper at any time you want, but if you're a low level toon you're going to be an hors d'œuvre for the fish there.

It doesn't say support class only for JE either; however, that's the role that the JE plays in combat, as they're not that good with DPS but are great with energy, buffs/debuffs, can Jumpstart others, and can share scan. Not to mention, the Scout, Seeker, and Privateer, really don't say much about the classes themselves besides them being the Terran Explorer, Jenquai Trader, and Progen Trader respectively. The stats given for them are wrong, although the JT's are probably closest to reality. (The Scout & Privateer both show the same stats, which clearly are wrong if you look at them._)

Edit: Also switching Engine 9, Device 8 to Engine 8, Device 9, affects you at all levels, not just endgame levels. If the JT has L9 devices she gets to use the Coma, Chim, and Manticore at OL 20 instead of OL 30, because if you get L8 max on a type of equipment, you get upgrades 10 levels later than someone who gets L9 on the same equipment (except for weapons which are CL and race based).

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The problem i find with this thread and many others is that there is not really and easy way to quantify what is said. As such you get i think this and then someone else say no, I think it this!

It all comes down to personal feelings. I doubt any the posters in this thread are completely wrong or right. But you can not ask someone to "prove" it when it comes down to personal taste as there isn't a way to quantify it.

The more successful games are the ones that can give some diversity to the classes (if possible) to allow different tactics for the same class, such as tank/dps, heal/dps, tank/heal/dps or only dps classes but they have special benefits. Either that or they provide a system to provide what your class lacks, ie say a henchman.

Edited by Bovyne

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I'd just like to toss in my thoughts..

I played a JE in live, and I'm up to a level 100 TS in ST4. my TS has a CL of 12. my JE in live had a combat level of something like 5 for the first 50-80 levels or so. My opinion of the classes is that warriors are the ones that can keep their CL on par with their other levels, explorers basically work on combat last, and traders fall somewhere in the middle.

I just started a Seeker and I expect to get my combat to roughly 6, then have my EL and TL pull way ahead. as mentioned before, EL is easy to get on tours (up to about 30's, also jobs) and TL's are even easier (trade runs/jobs). I expect to get combat cloak before OL 60, and if I'm lucky, before 50. From reading this thread, it seems like the massive defensive abilities of the Seeker is one of their best combat traits. At the same time, you have to remember that beams don't use ammo. It may take you 10% longer to kill, but you never have to waste time going back to base to restock.

All of that being said, take what I say with a grain of salt though, because I [b]just[/b] started a JS. I think that shield leech doesn't fit the Seeker's role as well as fold space, as the Jenquai are the least combat-oriented race. I'll have to see how things play out though while leveling my JS.

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So, if I understand you correctly, this could be solved by the inclusion of a level 3 through level 5 tradesman only beam weapon similar in damage to the Ogun. Is this correct?

This is because above level 5 you will get Combat Cloak and now the JS would be overpowered. And, tradesman only because no other race is likely to use beams.

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[quote name='Rivaryn' timestamp='1299942837' post='36331']
I'd just like to toss in my thoughts..

I played a JE in live, and I'm up to a level 100 TS in ST4. my TS has a CL of 12. my JE in live had a combat level of something like 5 for the first 50-80 levels or so. My opinion of the classes is that warriors are the ones that can keep their CL on par with their other levels, explorers basically work on combat last, and traders fall somewhere in the middle.

I just started a Seeker and I expect to get my combat to roughly 6, then have my EL and TL pull way ahead. as mentioned before, EL is easy to get on tours (up to about 30's, also jobs) and TL's are even easier (trade runs/jobs). I expect to get combat cloak before OL 60, and if I'm lucky, before 50. From reading this thread, it seems like the massive defensive abilities of the Seeker is one of their best combat traits. At the same time, you have to remember that beams don't use ammo. It may take you 10% longer to kill, but you never have to waste time going back to base to restock.

All of that being said, take what I say with a grain of salt though, because I [b]just[/b] started a JS. I think that shield leech doesn't fit the Seeker's role as well as fold space, as the Jenquai are the least combat-oriented race. I'll have to see how things play out though while leveling my JS.
[/quote]

Well, there we differ. I don't think any class should have a slump to grind through at any point. Because it's a player who will have to spend their game time grinding through it.

This isn't just about the JS, this is a fundamental issue with past and present MMOs. Regardless of how much time designers spend making the numbers fit together, if people do not find a class fun to play at any point, there's only so much time they'll spend not having fun before they stop playing. (Perversely stubborn people and alters looking to fill raid spots are exceptions - one is behaving irrationally for emotional reasons and the other has an ulterior motive.)

Game designers who do this shoot both their players in the foot and their entire mid-high level gameplay as well. Upper level content is team based and generally requires a mix of certain classes' abilities, so the classes that leak players during the low-mid level up process don't show up at higher levels in the numbers needed to play the content as designed. So you end up with a minority of people who "played it up anyways" and some people's raid alts trying to fill a hole created by the designers' failure to grasp the concept that people want to have fun at all times while they're playing.

This is kind of a "duh" thing to most observers, but for some reason it completely eludes many of the powers-that-wannabe. I have personal experience of this - the pros at SOE did this to my main class in EQ2 through nerfs to its core abilities, making it pretty much suck to play. So nobody played it after that - there were almost none of us in game at one point. Then they found that raids were severely impacted - as in some were barely survivable if you were lucky - by the lack of that class, and to "fix the issue", made a single raid buff for my class that resulted in them being invited to raiding guilds in the same way people who are too young to buy alcohol invite the unpopular kid that's old enough to buy beer to their parties. .... yeah. Nice job SOE.

So who is going to play a class that sucks all the way to max level just so they can get invited on raids for their one stupid buff? Raiding guild players making alts of that class for raids, that's who. And that's the only reason anyone plays that class (aside from new-player ignorance, and they're rather quickly educated by the other players.)

Fortunately, the newest gen of MMOs is abandoning narrow classes (or classes entirely) and creating content that can be played to completion without a forced class mix, so the future is looking brighter. I'll leave this thread with this post, as I think I've exhausted my arguments on the matter.

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[quote name='GenghisBob' timestamp='1299945976' post='36336']
So, if I understand you correctly, this could be solved by the inclusion of a level 3 through level 5 tradesman only beam weapon similar in damage to the Ogun. Is this correct?

This is because above level 5 you will get Combat Cloak and now the JS would be overpowered. And, tradesman only because no other race is likely to use beams.
[/quote]

If you work on your Exploration levels on your JT you can get combat cloak before L5 beams. It's based on how fast you can get her to EL25, which is the minimum requirement for L5 Cloak.

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[quote name='wootage' timestamp='1299953144' post='36345']
Well, there we differ. I don't think any class should have a slump to grind through at any point. Because it's a player who will have to spend their game time grinding through it.
[/quote]

I don't see this 'slump'. I like playing my character with higher EL and TL then combat. And plus, a single large tour that's maybe what, 5 hours, is enough to get EL 25 for combat cloak. I simply don't see how '5 hours' (heck, lets say 8 hours and overestimate) can be considered a slump.

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Just a what about idea , JT goes faster in reverse maybe 75% of forward speed to help keep out of range.
Not so game changing but allow more time to learn tactics , longer damage dealing before ouchy time

Alk

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