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Jenq Seeker - swap fold space or cloak for shield leech

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Been playing a JS for a bit now and I notice that they've really got a problem in combat at low-mid levels (currently 17/22/28, up to L3 weapons). Not in survivability - the shield recharge plus awesome reactors sees to that. This thing is a veritable tank with L4 reactor/shield/shield recharge. But it really has a problem with actually killing things compared to its counterparts with equal level weapons/slots.

Just focusing on what I've observed in game, a TT gets L3 Oguns which for some reason seem to outdamage my L3 200% Ocelots by a wide margin. A PP gets an extra weapon, which is understandable considering the warrior culture, but also gets both Critical Targeting and Shield Inversion. Both get a range advantage and have equal shield recharge, so I count them on up on the JS in that sense, but even at optimal ranges foe each, they seem to be able to beat up on stuff considerably faster than I can just with weapons.

I don't propose adding more Warrior skills to JE, in fact the opposite. I note that Fold Space is a Warrior skill, while Shield Leech is an Explorer skill that would boost the JS's DPS. So I thought I'd throw out the thought to swap them for discussion.

If there's a consideration as to what removal of Fold Space would do for grouping, or what Cloak would do for it (I dunno about either since I've not played all the way up yet), then Scan is also an Explorer skill that could be swapped for Shield Leech.

W

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You can't remove cloak from the JT since it's a race defining skill. When you reach EL25 and get Combat Cloak, your DPS with your JT will increase when you attack from combat cloak. Scan is also on the char because she's Jenquai, and has explorer racial traits, along with her trader profession.

The JT is probably not going to do as much damage as a comparably equipped TT, but she can debuff both the types of damage she's most likely to use. You have yours equipped with Plasma beams, so also equip a Chimaera device (if you haven't already), and hit your enemies with that before you shoot them (you only have to use your chim on each mob once). This will give you more damage with your beams. If you were using energy beams, then I would say get a Manticore which is a Trader Only device that debuffs energy. In both cases upgrade the device whenever you upgrade your devices. While the JT gets L8 devices, max, both Chim & Manticore go all the way to L9.

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You can't remove cloak from the JT since it's a race defining skill. When you reach EL25 and get Combat Cloak, your DPS with your JT will increase when you attack from combat cloak. Scan is also on the char because she's Jenquai, and has explorer racial traits, along with her trader profession.

The JT is probably not going to do as much damage as a comparably equipped TT, but she can debuff both the types of damage she's most likely to use. You have yours equipped with Plasma beams, so also equip a Chimaera device (if you haven't already), and hit your enemies with that before you shoot them (you only have to use your chim on each mob once). This will give you more damage with your beams. If you were using energy beams, then I would say get a Manticore which is a Trader Only device that debuffs energy. In both cases upgrade the device whenever you upgrade your devices. While the JT gets L8 devices, max, both Chim & Manticore go all the way to L9.

I understand what you're saying, but that all seem to back up what I am saying - JS is gimped in combat compared to the other two trading classes during the low-mid-levels, and possibly higher - we'll see when I get there.

Regarding cloak and scan being racial/explorer, that's fine. Although why Scan can't be swapped with Shield Leech, another explorer skill, is unclear to me, my real suggestion is to swap Fold Space for Shield Leech, which is also an Explorer skill.

Regarding using devices to help, TT can use a Rada too, so I have to call the debuffing possibilities equal. They don't have a missile skill buff device like the Aquila for beams, but I didn't mention that I was using a 200% Aquila III during the time I noticed this discrepancy. I think I'll try removing it next time I group with a TT and see how much more gap shows up.

I have to ask why you say the Terran Trader is *supposed* to outdamage a JS? The Progen is a given (and imho, a bit overpowered with extra weap + crit targeting + shield inversion, but that's not on topic), but shouldn't TT and JS at least tie for second place? Esp since the TT is a class that's designed to be the best at trade and combat support? Given that, I'd say the JS should be a clear second in combat damage and the TT bring up the rear.

Edited by wootage

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Terrell makes a good point about CC. The other traders might have a distinct damage advantage early but once jt gets CC it balances out a bit. Besides, being a jenpie, jt is probably meant to be slightly inferior to the other traders in terms of DPS, moreso with the warlike pt. Out of the traders, JT is the most like a traditional mmo healer class: pretty low but not the worst DPS, low HP, good survivability with heals and energy (mana) to spare. The progen as a race don't compare to a traditional mmo in that by far the best tank also does great DPS while a tank class normally has some of the worst DPS. And their healer also does great DPS without sacrificing energy or defense. EnB isn't your average mmo though and I love that about it.

Edit - yeah, maybe jt should outgun the tt by a bit. I would think it'd be pretty equal or a bit ahead as is with cc but again I don't play jt so you would know better than I.

Edited by Aiel

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I understand what you're saying, but that all seem to back up what I am saying - JS is gimped in combat compared to the other two trading classes during the low-mid-levels, and possibly higher - we'll see when I get there.

Regarding cloak and scan being racial/explorer, that's fine. Although why Scan can't be swapped with Shield Leech, another explorer skill, is unclear to me, my real suggestion is to swap Fold Space for Shield Leech, which is also an Explorer skill.

Regarding using devices to help, TT can use a Rada too, so I have to call the debuffing possibilities equal. They don't have a missile skill buff device like the Aquila for beams, but I didn't mention that I was using a 200% Aquila III during the time I noticed this discrepancy. I think I'll try removing it next time I group with a TT and see how much more gap shows up.

I have to ask why you say the Terran Trader is *supposed* to outdamage a JS? The Progen is a given (and imho, a bit overpowered with extra weap + crit targeting + shield inversion, but that's not on topic), but shouldn't TT and JS at least tie for second place? Esp since the TT is a class that's designed to be better at trade and combat support than direct combat?

I would disagree that the debuffing possiblities are equal. The Rada line of devices stops at L5, while the Chim & Manticore go up to L9 (beyond the JT's max devices of L8). TT also doesn't have many options for debuffing Explosive, the L5 Taniwha's Pride is the one they're probably most likely to get. Each level of debuffer, has a bigger effect than the previous level, that plus Combat Cloak, does help the JT in the DPS department. The JT also gets access to the Coma line of devices, as all Jenquai do, that will blind the mob and reduce the mob's ability to hit back. Coma devices, as far as I know, aren't working properly yet. The JT also has much more energy than the TT to use her debuffer.

Right now the JT does need love in the equipment choices department. There aren't many items as of yet, that are specific to the JT. She does get the Sharim Prototype Shield at L8, since the Mordana are in game now, but AFAIK only one player on the server can build it. You're not going to tank like the PT, or kite like the TT when fighting with a JT.

I wouldn't favor getting rid of Fold Space on the JT, it's a rather useful EL based combat skill, at L3 if you use the right tactics. It's not quite as good as it was in Live, but the mobs aren't quite as good against it as they were in live. (they can't resist it as of yet)

With the right tactics and equipment you can kill quite a few things with a JT, especially since damage resistances/immunities aren't in game yet as far as I can tell. The playstyle to get the most out of her; however, is different from the other traders.

All Jenquai get Scan, because they're all at least part Explorer, and Scan is an Explorer skill.

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I would disagree that the debuffing possiblities are equal. The Rada line of devices stops at L5, while the Chim & Manticore go up to L9 (beyond the JT's max devices of L8). TT also doesn't have many options for debuffing Explosive, the L5 Taniwha's Pride is the one they're probably most likely to get. Each level of debuffer, has a bigger effect than the previous level, that plus Combat Cloak, does help the JT in the DPS department. The JT also gets access to the Coma line of devices, as all Jenquai do, that will blind the mob and reduce the mob's ability to hit back. Coma devices, as far as I know, aren't working properly yet. The JT also has much more energy than the TT to use her debuffer.

Right now the JT does need love in the equipment choices department. There aren't many items as of yet, that are specific to the JT. She does get the Sharim Prototype Shield at L8, since the Mordana are in game now, but AFAIK only one player on the server can build it. You're not going to tank like the PT, or kite like the TT when fighting with a JT.

I wouldn't favor getting rid of Fold Space on the JT, it's a rather useful EL based combat skill, at L3 if you use the right tactics. It's not quite as good as it was in Live, but the mobs aren't quite as good against it as they were in live. (they can't resist it as of yet)

With the right tactics and equipment you can kill quite a few things with a JT, especially since damage resistances/immunities aren't in game yet as far as I can tell. The playstyle to get the most out of her; however, is different from the other traders.

All Jenquai get Scan, because they're all at least part Explorer, and Scan is an Explorer skill.

Well, maybe things do get better when you cross the line to CC, but that's a lot of the game during which you have a balance problem, right? And my post is specific to DPS - I agree the JT has superior personal defensive abilities through skills and devices, but surviving is not the problem when you have the best reactors as a race and shield recharge as a class skill. The problem is the amount of DPS you have really affects your ability to complete missions and earn combat levels to further upgrade your combat abilities.

So given the sheer number of defensive abilities the JT has, it makes sense to me to consider swapping one of them for an offensive ability. The only abilities I see available from the other classes are Critical Targeting and Shield Leech, and given that Jenq are not warlike like the Progen, I can't see giving the JT a warrior skill like Critical Targeting. So, Shield Leech keeps coming up as the only possibility. It does make sense from a group perspective too, as it will help the JT with shield recharges and the group with energy.

Edited by wootage

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Shield Leech would increase her DPS but would not recharge the group's shields, it would instead go into the JT's reactor, and at L5+ go into the reactors of the group and it's not like the JT is in need of more energy (best reactors, best reactor support, and Reactor Optimization). The JE would also have his toes stepped on some here, since he already weilds this skill, and has the ability to transfer reactor energy to group mates via devices. PW's Shield Sap takes energy from mobs' shields and adds it to PW's shield, as well as group shields at higher levels.

Combat Cloak & Fold Space are dual use, there are both offensive & defensive ways to use to these skills. Scan is mainly a defensive skill, since most mobs can't cloak, but against those who could (the Osterae/Mabonae mobs in VG could Combat Cloak in Live) it works as an offensive skill, in that it allows you to see and target cloaked mobs starting at L3.

At lower levels the JE is also pretty vulnerable and has low DPS, the best thing to do with a JE or JT is to get their Explore levels and Trade levels ahead of their combat level. Leveling up CL on both those classes is going to be slow, based on their skill set, the best alternatives are to either group, or level up what they're strong at and use spillover to level CL.

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The difference in dps you're seeing isn't a class skill issue, it's an item issue. If you look, most Jenquai beams are kind of low in damage when compared to their missile counterparts. You can get higher by using an energy beam, but then you lose the innate plasma bonus against shields.

Or... you could over-power the difference by getting yourself some Novaflash energy beams and use a Manticore/Tatsu device. That should give you the boost you need to compete with a TT using Oguns.

Edit: Forgot to mention, try to engage at 50% of beam range or less. There used to be calculations in the system that reduced the effectiveness of beams beyond 50% of their listed range, not sure if that's still in the system, but doesn't hurt to check it out.

Edited by Fuulish

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The JS really does need some sort of extra combat skill, not just comparing to the other traders, but comparing to the JE with shield leech is better than the JS at combat. And that does feel wrong. The other traders also have survivability and other skills.

Shield leech would certainly help, but maybe slightly different than the JE version. I wondering about this but really couldn't think of anything unique. But I do think the JS needs something more.

Maybe an attack that takes from the shield to damage the enemy,but not an aoe. ie the shield takes damage while doing the damage to the mob (at a 1 to 1 rate maybe, or 20% shield done as damage??), shield spike?, meaning you have to use your shield restore?

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@Terrel, I'm not arguing about workarounds - there's always a way around the issue. But if you have to recommend workarounds, that's admitting there is an issue, and since this is a test / design phase for the game and a new class, I think it's worth documenting the problem for future brainstorming / correction.

JT does need extra energy for shield recharges, but I agree that the JT doesn't need more energy with reactor opt. In fact, that's an idea, swap reactor opt for Shield Leech. I think they start contributing group energy at around the same levels, so that idea works all the way around.

Regarding lessening the JE's role, they would still be unique in that they can target the group member to add power, correct? So they'd still be the primary battery for the tank and the JT would use the energy for shield recharges and help the group with additional supply. They also are the primary scan buffers too, and have unique crowd control? I'm not up on them but a quick scan showed a few unique abilities.

@Fuulish, that's very possible. Oguns are way overpowered from what I see - I saw a PT using them the other day by preference lol. Assuming the TT is using explosive instead and things are otherwise equal, I still think the JE should do more damage, as the TT was originally designed to have the best group support abilities and best trade in exchange for less damage - the TT imho is the "healer" since it has both shield recharge and hull patch.

Feel free to keep discussing this, but from what I see posted, I guess no one can dispute that the other traders are higher in DPS, either by class ability (Progen) or gear choices. I don't believe anyone has countered my position that this makes the JT less playable in a combat level context, so IMHO, swapping one of the JT's many defensive/support abilities (don't care which) for a second offensive boost (don't care which) would bring it more into balance with the other classes and make it a lot more playable.

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The JS really does need some sort of extra combat skill, not just comparing to the other traders, but comparing to the JE with shield leech is better than the JS at combat. And that does feel wrong. The other traders also have survivability and other skills.

Shield leech would certainly help, but maybe slightly different than the JE version. I wondering about this but really couldn't think of anything unique. But I do think the JS needs something more.

Maybe an attack that takes from the shield to damage the enemy,but not an aoe. ie the shield takes damage while doing the damage to the mob (at a 1 to 1 rate maybe, or 20% shield done as damage??), shield spike?, meaning you have to use your shield restore?

You know, I didn't think of that because I was comparing trader to trader. But the Explorers are supposed to be the weakest offensive combat class, and they are with the other two races. The Jenquai trader is the weakest Jenq combat class offensively, and that kind of breaks the pattern. Thanks for pointing that out!

Edited by wootage

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You know, I didn't think of that because I was comparing trader to trader. But the Explorers are supposed to be the weakest offensive combat class, and they are with the other two races. The Jenquai trader is the weakest Jenq combat class offensively, and that kind of breaks the pattern. Thanks for pointing that out!

The TT is also weaker than the TS offensively, with less and weaker debuff options, yet same # of weapons. The PT is only slighter better than the PS offensively, with less and weaker debuff options, and an extra weapon + shield inversion vs. repulsor field.

The traders advantage in combat compared to the explorers is defence, not offence.

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According to the original design docs, the TS was only meant to have 3 weapons and 6 devices (but this proved too weak).

The line of weakness: Progen pwn Terran or Jenquai as we all know and agree that Progen are vastly superior.

Class line of firepower: Warrior pwn Trader pwn Explorer

** Deeply into Progen Pysche as writing content **

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@Terrel, I'm not arguing about workarounds - there's always a way around the issue. But if you have to recommend workarounds, that's admitting there is an issue, and since this is a test / design phase for the game and a new class, I think it's worth documenting the problem for future brainstorming / correction.

JT does need extra energy for shield recharges, but I agree that the JT doesn't need more energy with reactor opt. In fact, that's an idea, swap reactor opt for Shield Leech. I think they start contributing group energy at around the same levels, so that idea works all the way around.

Regarding lessening the JE's role, they would still be unique in that they can target the group member to add power, correct? So they'd still be the primary battery for the tank and the JT would use the energy for shield recharges and help the group with additional supply. They also are the primary scan buffers too, and have unique crowd control? I'm not up on them but a quick scan showed a few unique abilities.

Or perhaps improvisation (tactics) is part of the way a JT is supposed to be played in solo combat, same for a JE. Having played both to L150, I don't find my JE better at combat than my JT. Both classes take a while to kill things particularily if you compare to a Terran or Progen of the same profession. I use the same tactics for either toon, and have more room for error with her. I do think that for her L135 Affiliation skill she should get something useful both for solo play and group play, but I'm not sure what. In Live only the JE and PE had 135 skills, in the emulator the PE's has been implemented last I checked the JE's skill has not.

I would disagree that a JT needs more reactor power for anything, between a PM Cygnus 9, L7 Reactor Opt, and all the equipment she can use with reactor buffs on it, she has plenty of energy despite there being little JT specific equipment in game yet, (Bandy's Boosters, Sharim Prototype Shield, Sharim Shields) so she likely has more to come. My JT doesn't have energy problems at all, most times I don't even bother bringing my Martyr's Heart, since my Cygnus 9 performs well with a CVE and a Stein. (there are better things a JT can use than those 2 devices). I have more than enough energy to fire my beams (DG, EoFF, 2x EoD), use Cloak, Fold Space, and Shield Recharge. If I were to run short on energy the Martyr's Heart is a good device to use. Cast shield recharge, and while it's powering up activate a Martyr's heart. You'll have full shield & reactor shortly if you time it right. Doubtful that either PT or TT have this kind of energy or comparable access to debuffers in preferred damage types.

The JE's crowd control abilities are barely better than the JT's. Compulsory Contemplation isn't that good of a skill, used it in Live. It was an energy hog that required you to remain still while it was in use lest it break. Both classes are equal with their use of the Fold Space skill. The JW with both max Fold Space and max Summon, is arguably better at crowd control than both JE and JT. As of yet the devs have not said what the JT will get as a Sharim Affiliation Skill,

I think JT should have more equipment to choose from, but I think the same for JE and JW, as well as the other races. I don't think that the JT's DPS really needs improvement but I could agree to giving her more utility in terms of combat support.

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I have been comparing the skills, equips, and weapon types of all races and classes.

The only thing I would like to see is for the JSeeker to be able to

use missiles. IIRC,each of the other races has Two classes that can

Equip three different weapons types.

If you/we think the JSeeker should not get an extra weapons type it would

be nice to have the Seekers secondary weapon (Projectiles)skill have a couple of new

items to enhance the PL skill and their class skill, ie.. Enhanced Reactor Optimization

+ PL Range and/or PL Skill and/or PL Damage.

If you remember The JSeeker had Psionic Shield, Shield Recharge and Reactor Optimization

That combo made them very powerful maybe just a bit too powerful. Kind of made the JD obsolete.

Phorlaug...

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Or perhaps improvisation (tactics) is part of the way a JT is supposed to be played in solo combat, same for a JE. Having played both to L150, I don't find my JE better at combat than my JT. Both classes take a while to kill things particularily if you compare to a Terran or Progen of the same profession. I use the same tactics for either toon, and have more room for error with her. I do think that for her L135 Affiliation skill she should get something useful both for solo play and group play, but I'm not sure what. In Live only the JE and PE had 135 skills, in the emulator the PE's has been implemented last I checked the JE's skill has not.

I would disagree that a JT needs more reactor power for anything, between a PM Cygnus 9, L7 Reactor Opt, and all the equipment she can use with reactor buffs on it, she has plenty of energy despite there being little JT specific equipment in game yet, (Bandy's Boosters, Sharim Prototype Shield, Sharim Shields) so she likely has more to come. My JT doesn't have energy problems at all, most times I don't even bother bringing my Martyr's Heart, since my Cygnus 9 performs well with a CVE and a Stein. (there are better things a JT can use than those 2 devices). I have more than enough energy to fire my beams (DG, EoFF, 2x EoD), use Cloak, Fold Space, and Shield Recharge. If I were to run short on energy the Martyr's Heart is a good device to use. Cast shield recharge, and while it's powering up activate a Martyr's heart. You'll have full shield & reactor shortly if you time it right. Doubtful that either PT or TT have this kind of energy or comparable access to debuffers in preferred damage types.

The JE's crowd control abilities are barely better than the JT's. Compulsory Contemplation isn't that good of a skill, used it in Live. It was an energy hog that required you to remain still while it was in use lest it break. Both classes are equal with their use of the Fold Space skill. The JW with both max Fold Space and max Summon, is arguably better at crowd control than both JE and JT. As of yet the devs have not said what the JT will get as a Sharim Affiliation Skill,

I think JT should have more equipment to choose from, but I think the same for JE and JW, as well as the other races. I don't think that the JT's DPS really needs improvement but I could agree to giving her more utility in terms of combat support.

Well, sorry to say it like this, but once again your points are about the high end gameplay, while my OP was about the problem I saw with low-midrange play. My viewpoint is that of a tester - every class must be capable of achieving its goals at every level. It's never ok for a class to be problematic to play at a given point because "it'll get better later on".

Re the energy discussion, swapping out Reactor Opt removes energy from the class. So my point was that it would be a fairly even swap as far as energy for solo and group play, while addressing my perceived problem.

Update on this issue, I've just tonight gotten the L75 HU and I have to say, the problem has abated almost completely - it's now possible to go out and kill the stuff assigned in the mission in a reasonable manner. 3 L4s +75% skill buff are a massive improvement over 2 L3s + 50% skill buff, after all. I would point out that this is with 200% weaponry, a real test would be store-bought stuff, but we're way early in development to be so rigorous.

So now we have a clear definition of the perceived problem - from the L30 to L75 HU, the JT seems slow to kill stuff, which is essential for completing combat missions and leveling combat. And without combat leveling, you can't get the combat upgrades to solve the problem. So it feels like a pretty steep hill, esp. from CL 14-18, and then it flattens right out when you get the L75 HU.

Edited by wootage

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Well, sorry to say it like this, but once again your points are about the high end gameplay, while my OP was about the problem I saw with low-midrange play. My viewpoint is that of a tester - every class must be capable of achieving its goals at every level. It's never ok for a class to be problematic to play at a given point because "it'll get better later on".

Re the energy discussion, swapping out Reactor Opt removes energy from the class. So my point was that it would be a fairly even swap as far as energy for solo and group play, while addressing my perceived problem.

Update on this issue, I've just tonight gotten the L75 HU and I have to say, the problem has abated almost completely - it's now possible to go out and kill the stuff assigned in the mission in a reasonable manner. 3 L4s +75% skill buff are a massive improvement over 2 L3s + 50% skill buff, after all. I would point out that this is with 200% weaponry, a real test would be store-bought stuff, but we're way early in development to be so rigorous.

So now we have a clear definition of the perceived problem - from the L30 to L75 HU, the JT seems slow to kill stuff, which is essential for completing combat missions and leveling combat. And without combat leveling, you can't get the combat upgrades to solve the problem. So it feels like a pretty steep hill, esp. from CL 14-18, and then it flattens right out when you get the L75 HU.

For energy on a Jenquai toon you should probably be using a Gallina reactor at L2 and 3, a Draco for L4-7, and a Cygnus for L7+. Gallina can be found at Ishuan Station. Draco & Cygnus are not available in vendors, but are buildable. JT can also use the monoceros line of devices for more recharge, the Gallina reactor has an activatable energy buff as does the Draco. Reactor Opt is also obtained at a low level, during Sharim training, upgrade it ASAP. On builds pick 2 and stick with it, so you have points for your other skills.

Taking away Reactor Opt, takes away the JT's only unique skill, for a skill that is already covered by the JE. All her other skills are shared with at least one other class. Reactor Opt, was added by the Emulator devs to make JT's more desirable in a group in a way that's apropriate to her race & class. Build Reactor was added to give her something she could build that the TT couldn't.

In addition all of the 6 original classes had at least one skill that was unique to them, the 3 missing classes, when ST3 started were all 2 skills short of the original 6 and had no unique skills. The JT got Reactor Optimization, the Scout gets Afterburn & Null-Factor in the future, what the PT gets has yet to be revealed by the developers. When the game is ready for it's final balancing, each of those classes should have at least 1 thing that only they can do in terms of skills.

Debuffer use on a JT is something she gets while she's still little. Manticore, Chim, and Coma devices that the JT can use in combat all become available at L3 devices (OL 30), and run all to way to L9 devices, with no missing levels in between. Manticore increases her dps with energy beams, by lowering the mobs resistance to them, Chim does the same thing but for plasma, and the Coma blinds the mob so they can't hit back as well. The Chim and Manticore devices already work, have used them on my JT, Coma device may not work as of yet.

The JT due to her defensive skills can last long enough to complete combat against the mobs of levels comparable to hers. It's necessary to use different tactics if you want to get the most out of her at low levels, but combat with a JT isn't that tough. You can use shield recharge, to stay alive, with Reactor Opt as well, or you can use fold-kiting tactics as a solo player. Or you can group with others, and take on things that are tougher.

I don't think it's clear of a problem, the JT can kill the stuff she needs to kill, to get to the higher levels, she simply does so in her own way, differently from the PT and TT. (who also are played differently from one another). Get debuffer devices for your JT also try different beams. At low levels you have a pretty broad selection of both Jenquai & Terran beams you can use. Vendor equipment is to hold you over until you can get better equipment for your toon, regardless of class.

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So now we have a clear definition of the perceived problem - from the L30 to L75 HU, the JT seems slow to kill stuff, which is essential for completing combat missions and leveling combat. And without combat leveling, you can't get the combat upgrades to solve the problem. So it feels like a pretty steep hill, esp. from CL 14-18, and then it flattens right out when you get the L75 HU.

People aren't necessarily meant to be accepting combat missions that are at the top of their range. For example, just because you can accept L50/L75 jobs (assuming you're L35/L60), it doesn't mean it's going to be a smart thing to do. Also, just because a JT may take longer than a TT to kill something of the same level might not mean anything. A TT may not be able to go as long as a JT non-stop when farming due to reactor constraints. Balanced in different ways, no?

Something else to keep in mind. If there are difficult periods during the leveling process, but it gets better, that's fairly indicative that it's not a class-wide problem, but more likely something that can fairly easily be fixed with gear/mob balancing.

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Well, maybe things do get better when you cross the line to CC, but that's a lot of the game during which you have a balance problem, right? And my post is specific to DPS - I agree the JT has superior personal defensive abilities through skills and devices, but surviving is not the problem when you have the best reactors as a race and shield recharge as a class skill. The problem is the amount of DPS you have really affects your ability to complete missions and earn combat levels to further upgrade your combat abilities.

So given the sheer number of defensive abilities the JT has, it makes sense to me to consider swapping one of them for an offensive ability. The only abilities I see available from the other classes are Critical Targeting and Shield Leech, and given that Jenq are not warlike like the Progen, I can't see giving the JT a warrior skill like Critical Targeting. So, Shield Leech keeps coming up as the only possibility. It does make sense from a group perspective too, as it will help the JT with shield recharges and the group with energy.

Personally, any time I make a new toon, I see if can get a tour around... one good galactic tour alone is enough to get you to low level EL 20s easily, and the way they used to get run in live, a full tour group could easily get to EL 32 no problem in a matter of hours. so... no... there's no major lack of balance for CC. As to your skills in direct combat, a trader's main job in a fight isn't combat, it's support. Don't get me wrong, the ability to output is nice, but the entire point isn't nice, it's team work. TTs are healers, JS are the silly little wizard in the back that throws out the debuffs and makes the enemy wet their pants while getting beat. Rather than trying to fill a different role, how about either actually figuring out what the roll you want is and playing a class with that roll or playing the designed roll of the class you choose?

In any given MMO you have four posts: Tank, DPS, Healer, Buff/Debuff. Most classes will fill one post with ease, a second post to a much lesser extent, and sometimes (EnB excluded) a third post to a poor degree. The JS fills the post of debuff to an unparalleled level. They make a miserly DPS unit.

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Personally, any time I make a new toon, I see if can get a tour around... one good galactic tour alone is enough to get you to low level EL 20s easily, and the way they used to get run in live, a full tour group could easily get to EL 32 no problem in a matter of hours. so... no... there's no major lack of balance for CC. As to your skills in direct combat, a trader's main job in a fight isn't combat, it's support. Don't get me wrong, the ability to output is nice, but the entire point isn't nice, it's team work. TTs are healers, JS are the silly little wizard in the back that throws out the debuffs and makes the enemy wet their pants while getting beat. Rather than trying to fill a different role, how about either actually figuring out what the roll you want is and playing a class with that roll or playing the designed roll of the class you choose?

In any given MMO you have four posts: Tank, DPS, Healer, Buff/Debuff. Most classes will fill one post with ease, a second post to a much lesser extent, and sometimes (EnB excluded) a third post to a poor degree. The JS fills the post of debuff to an unparalleled level. They make a miserly DPS unit.

If you can guarantee a combat group will always be available, great! However, I got exactly two during the problematic level range, and yes, during those times I had no problems with gaining CLs. At all other times, including the level appropriate missions, it was painfully slow to achieve the objectives, and therefore not a lot of fun.

And re all the metagaming you guys seem to expect, that is not part of this discussion of the problem I perceive and the solution I propose. Happy to discuss the combat leveling problem I perceive and answer any questions about it so the best suggestion possible can be put forth, but workarounds or metagaming isn't OT, k?

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The problem is that you're expecting DPS out of a class that really isn't about DPS. Get debuffers @ OL30 player made, use the Gallina, Draco, Cygnus line of reactors as you level. Get a level apropriate Monoceros device, while you're low in level. Do Explore jobs to keep your TL and EL ahead of CL, when they become available. Don't expect to kill mobs that are over your CL quickly, your weapons will be underpowered for the task, the further over your CL the mob is the more likely you are to miss shots. You're probably going to earn CL more efficently by farming mobs that are a CL or two below yours, especially if you find some mobs that have a fairly good spawn rate, low aggressiveness, and alturism.

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If you can guarantee a combat group will always be available, great! However, I got exactly two during the problematic level range, and yes, during those times I had no problems with gaining CLs. At all other times, including the level appropriate missions, it was painfully slow to achieve the objectives, and therefore not a lot of fun.

And re all the metagaming you guys seem to expect, that is not part of this discussion of the problem I perceive and the solution I propose. Happy to discuss the combat leveling problem I perceive and answer any questions about it so the best suggestion possible can be put forth, but workarounds or metagaming isn't OT, k?

Hmm... just a touch of intelligent metagaming, which could easily be explained away in a back story if you're into MMO rps, or completely redesign the purpose of an entire class... hate to say this, but one of these sounds like wanting your God Mode cheat, and the other sounds more like wanting a different flavor of cake. As to yet another alternative, rather than trying to pulp something with in your "combat level range" how about trying to pulp something with in your "combat capability range". As you yourself pointed out, the Jen Seeker ain't the best combatant. Go something a level or two under what you have been... something a little easier to blast to slag, and therefore faster to get XP off of. or get a pair of EMP beams and one energy/plasma beam and go bio hunting... you still need a non-EMP to take them down, but them EMPs eat shields like a kid with candy on Halloween night. Try weapon mixing, if you've the points for it or a PS friend. I've been told that certain non-beams are effective in battle for Jens and even amplify beams. Heck, try a temporary swap to missile weapons for a few levels and kite the CLs.

Or, again, go with a class who's purpose is that of beating the crap out of things. If you want more beat down, but you still want the cargo space and some of the buff/debuff capability, go with a TE, though you have to learn to fight differently. If you still want the Jenquai, but with better fighting, go with the JD. If you still want the trader class, but with more brutalization, either the TT (woot for missiles) or the PP (woot for 5 weapon slots) would work sufficiently. Trying to solo-combat with a JS is like doing solo combat with a wizard in any fantasy-based RPG. It's perfectly possible, you just have to figure out how to do it with out whining like an 8 year old brat that didn't get the Twix at the check out line.

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I have a 150 toon in all the classes except JS and TS, I find the TS lots of fun and will have one at 150 in the future. I have started a JS 3 times now and deleted them, I find they are missing something. Although they are not a warrior and I understand that, as one posted swap fold space for something. I would say Crit targeting IMO would make the JS way more fun to play.

Still only 4 weapons like the TT, 1 less than PP which has crit Targeting. JMO on the matter guys, I feel the JS needs something. Also please look at the Reactor Surge Graphics, lots of people including myself think they are a little much.

Keep up the good work Devs and GMs and thanks for our game back.

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I have a 150 toon in all the classes except JS and TS, I find the TS lots of fun and will have one at 150 in the future. I have started a JS 3 times now and deleted them, I find they are missing something. Although they are not a warrior and I understand that, as one posted swap fold space for something. I would say Crit targeting IMO would make the JS way more fun to play.

Still only 4 weapons like the TT, 1 less than PP which has crit Targeting. JMO on the matter guys, I feel the JS needs something. Also please look at the Reactor Surge Graphics, lots of people including myself think they are a little much.

Keep up the good work Devs and GMs and thanks for our game back.

The higher levels, particularily max level on Reactor Optimization is a little less feminine in color than it was originally. Not sure what graphic they would use if they changed it, but a bubble would probably not be the best choice, since a JT needs to see when her groupmate's buff wears off so she can re-apply. It's easier for at TT to know when Shield Charging has worn off by looking at groupmate's shield caps, vs having to type in a slash command to see a groupmate's reactor.

I doubt we'll ever of see critical targeting on a JT at least not as a skill. Only the classes that have a warrior component get Critical Targeting, which leaves out the Scout, Seeker, Explorer, and Tradesman. The JT is the explore oriented Trader. It's more likely you'll see some equipment she can use that has a buff to critical hit chance (which doesn't require you to have the skill to increase your chances of getting a crit). There is some high end equipment JT can use with this buff, there's at least 1 L4 energy beam a JT can use with that buff (blue dragon).

The Scout, Seeker, and Privateer have very little class specific equipment as of yet, we will have to see what the devs have in store for them. The PT is in good shape because he's a Progen, and as the combat orientated Trader, he can already use much existing equipment effectively in direct combat. What will really help the JT, IMO, is what equipment she will ultimately have available specifically for her.

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I was thinking about the reactor optimisation graphics, i was thinking a short of glow or electrical discharge around the centre of the ship might be better>? That also lead to me thinking about a possible ability. Part of this class is the reactor optimisation, so how about a skill that affects the reactor directly to do damage to ships?

So Initiate Overload (or something like that) cause enemy reactor to overload cause x damage to ship hull for y seconds, z cd? (if damage to hull while shields up too strong maybe just damage to shields then hull, or just shields? as a down side with its reactor overloading it the enemy might have more energy until the effect wears off at which point the reactor would need a little time to recover?

Or you could overload your own reactor to give faster firing rates (or damage) for x % y sec and z cd, recovery period at the end for a few sec?

These would be unique.

Edited by Bovyne

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