For Devs: The Progen Persecution Thread!

[seekeronos]

This is derived from a guild conversation last night, where a few of us were comparing notes on just how difficult things are getting for Progens in terms of solo combat lately.

--- Combat vs. L47-L52 Chavez in Paramis. Yes, these boys are tougher than your normal herbal-remedy using banditos that lurk in the seedier corners of space. But pre-patch, I could wade in and take five or six at a time with shield sap and walk away with superficial hull damage (78k/82k hull, probably some shields returned after my last sap before my last enemy died, no equipment dents)

Now, getting three or four of these guys on me is a challenge, and six will mean I barely get away with 20k hull and upwards of 5% quality damage on one of my guns or other equipment. And that's fully buffed, PB turbo, you name it.

I had to have my CFB and WH9 rebuilt (and that was quite painful, as the builder was getting pretty bad rebuilds even using all 200% PM parts - but that's a subject of another post).

--- Combat vs. L56-60 drones in BBW

The L56s are easy chewing. I can either straight tank them or back-kite them without risking hull damage.

The L58s I can manage by back-thrusting (they are devilishly fast though, and they can close the 6km reach of my PLs even if I use NOS) and by the time they close to their very lethal beam range, I can pop off a shield sap to mitigate what's left of its shields, and debuff with bully eye, reload grav link, and finish it off leaving me with a smoking, sparking hull at about 60k~65k strength.

The L60s are now a death-wish if I try to straight tank them. I can get one sap off, maybe two if my timing is perfect; and after that that 5,000-6,000 DPS hitting me will kill me off. I can barely get through its shields before having to warp away. Back-kiting works marginally better, but once it has closed to its beam range, I've only managed to punch it down to half its hull before having to run away and recharge my shields (with my TT I've parked somewhere safe)

Even back-kiting with the TT in formation actively healing the PW, I can barely keep up (the TT is L110, so it doesn't have area recharge yet) - presently the drone is out-DPSing the heals.

Pre-patch, my OL150+ PW could easily back-kite the L60 with moderate loss of shields, and straight tank with reduction of shields to around 10%-20%.

--- L60 Bunyip in Glenn

This I did on a lark: another PW friend of mine soloed this on his PW with L8 guns (!!!) sometime before the patch. I have no basis of comparison for the DPS output of the Bunyip pre-patch.... but if that guy could solo it with L8 guns, and now the Bunyip hits me for 40k-45k damage per hit every 3-4sec WITH a 200% Ivory Ward and buffed combat trance/HDC, and I can barely get it to half of its 1.2million shield points...

...something is VERY wrong.

[Suricata79[IS]]

To give you an idea, I played a JD and JE as my mains in live, but I did also have a fully kitted out PW as well. The mobs right now are hitting a little bit to hard, which I'm looking into.

As for what a damage a player should walk away with after a fiight? Well, we have all that information in the games master design documents, which is what 'm currently using to help balance the mobs out. It's a very delicate process though!

As a rule of thumb, when you start hitting the late cl50 mobs, it starts getting more beneficial to group up. I'm hoping to get some of my tweaks on the PTR next week for testing.

[Jamosite]

Let me start with a comment. I do assume that there is a small dislike for Progens in the dev circle. Do I feel it is a pure hatred ? no. Do I feel like the devs seem to do some small devilish things? sure but it isn't to the full point yet were "we" the players feel persecuted. I think that the removal of the Pw being able to solo "some" things and the increase in quality damage is not fair due to the fact that the original dev documents from live should be interpreted but not implemented fully due to the fact that we are not at "full" live capacity.

(I love the community feel to this though and part of me selfishly wants to keep it small )

That being said. I hope the suggestion to have a repair quality skill implementation will be entertained.

Repair Quality post . .

I also feel that there are two types of players in the game.

The kind that wants to solo ( usually a duel boxer but not always )

The kind that wants to group

the reason I dislike quality loss from most things ( except bosses/raids) is as follows. Say you have a nice lev 9 Black Streak (GIMMIE ONE!!) its 100 quality set forth when looting. You decide to fight in a non raid and boom it takes 2-3-4 percent quality loss???

you'll want a new one so you find a good group to help you loot a new one, you take one away from some one who does not have one at all. if its a unique but tradeable item you will give it to some one who could use it and probably does not have a beam toon that is there primary. if it's non trade well you know.

Accept the fact that quality loss will happen when / as it should but do not let non raid mobs hurt you severely.

also its not right to have the quality loss occur when your into hull and not destroyed. this would render a progen

useless because it was meant to fly around always burning from its battle scars

I am assuming there are like minded people to this idea. everyone has there own opinions.

FYI. Keep up the good work. - Time for me to donate again ( hint to everyone else )

[C Del[IS]]

There isn't a dislike for Progens; there really isn't. Honestly, I'm really not sure where people get that idea (feel free to illuminate me if I'm missing something). I might be with you on the quality loss though, but I'm not really sure how it's calculated atm.

[Terrell [BT]]

There isn't a dislike for Progens; there really isn't. Honestly, I'm really not sure where people get that idea (feel free to illuminate me if I'm missing something). I might be with you on the quality loss though, but I'm not really sure how it's calculated atm.

I agree that quality loss is over the top, but I don't think that Progen are hated around here.

Take the Mordana items for example. The Progen can get the CFB which is arguably one of their best shields, but none of the Jenquai items from the Mordana are in game yet, such as the Defender's Pride (JW Only), Ghost's Edge (All Jenquai), Veiled Oyoroi (JE Only), Defender's Doumaru (JW Only), & Sharim Prototype Shield (JT Only). IMO the JE and JT should get their own versions of the DP (different buffs, same damage type, lower DPS, similiar availability of parts).

[Suricata79[IS]]

I'll be honest, I don't prefer or dislike any of the races or classes when it comes to the development of the emulator, ideally I want all the content to be accessable to everyone (althoguh some may require a little hoop jumping ofcourse). No class should ever be able to solo every mob though, as this prevents the non-combat classes from finding groups to help combat classes. This is why it is so important that a player can never run with infinate reactor or shields, because thats what the non-combat classes are there to privide for the combat classes.

[Heirkusan]

I'll be honest, I don't prefer or dislike any of the races or classes when it comes to the development of the emulator, ideally I want all the content to be accessable to everyone (althoguh some may require a little hoop jumping ofcourse). No class should ever be able to solo every mob though, as this prevents the non-combat classes from finding groups to help combat classes. This is why it is so important that a player can never run with infinate reactor or shields, because thats what the non-combat classes are there to privide for the combat classes.

I smell a combat trance nerf and Jenq nerf inc coming then?

Yay let's nerf JDs more dooo it. >.>

[Terrell [BT]]

I smell a combat trance nerf and Jenq nerf inc coming then?

Yay let's nerf JDs more dooo it. >.>

A JW with infinite reactor? Where? I know a JT can get effectively infinite reactor, if she has L8 beams, L9 Cygnus, L7 Reactor Optimization, and a Martyr's Heart. (The Martyr's Heart, combined with Shield Recharge is key to this, w/o those two things it doesn't work). My JT also used a Stein, and a FVE, not sure if that additional buffing made the difference, but my reactor rarely dropped below 1/2, and when it did I swapped out my Manticore for my Martyr's Heart, activated recharge shields, and right before teh skill would fully power up, activate the Martyr's Heart.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Terrell

[seekeronos]

About the title of the thread - I didn't mean to intimate that (some? most? any?) devs hate Progens or any other class/race in particular.

It was just a subtle jab in a mixture of my typical manner of poking fun at a situation which currently frustrates me (and more than a handful of other Progens).

It would be less a matter of "persecution" than some (hopefully) momentary discomfort at the removal of my favourite class (PW) to do what it (in theory) was designed to do - to be bar none, the best tank and deliverer of sustained DPS* in the game.

*a point here, since JW's win for short burst DPS, and Terrans have lower DPS overall, but a safer margin to deliver said DPS)

The big two things that fluster me is that PW's should be able to manage an encounter with a single L60 and walk away with anywhere from a thin sliver of his shields to about half his shields, maybe incurring some hull damage if his timing of Shield Sap was off or a gun jammed, etc.

L61-L63 should be doable, but with substantial risk of deep hull damage if things go wrong, and light hull damage even if things go right. Doable with a duo fairly easily though.

L64+ should be pretty much be impossible to solo, very difficult for dual boxers, and moderately tough for two unique players paired well together (such as a PP/PW). Doable fairly easily with a trio or a quad of players, with the exception of L66 named bosses who should require at least a full group.

The other thing that flusters me is the way quality damage gets computed:

Taking a 5% hit to my CFB and 6% to my WH9 when my hull was down to about 20k after running away from the Chavez Secret HQ in Paramis; these things are NOT easily rebuilt.

The builder who had made my CFB pre-patch had made it 200% using all PM/200% parts, minus whatever non-manu parts were involved. Rebuilding it post-patch, using all the same PM parts, she (a PP with maxed builds and almost every item mapped) could not do any better than 171% in a station station she has faction with (yeah, we know station faction is a factor yet).

It gets even worse for my raid weapons that got dented. I'll have to live with those until another FB can be organized (lesson learned for now: use the Archos that I can rebuild for higher level mobs)

An item taking significant quality loss (more than 5%, especially through a PW or TW hull) should only result if the player gets KO'ed by an especially tough enemy (named CL66 raid boss).

"Uber" items like Dragon Fangs, Blackbeard equipment, non-manu Controller drops... these should have a higher defending roll against quality loss, especially if the drops are to be tightened up on the loot tables for those bosses.

[bondct]

I had a max skill point L150 PE alt in live that was a lotta fun... but now that terrans can explore my all terran team is the way to go... and as for the poll... I will say anything that advances terran... even if others benefit from it as well...

so when do TS get build reactors... and I have no problem trading negotiate for it...

[Rossdie [BT]]

I had a max skill point L150 PE alt in live that was a lotta fun... but now that terrans can explore my all terran team is the way to go... and as for the poll... I will say anything that advances terran... even if others benefit from it as well...

so when do TS get build reactors... and I have no problem trading negotiate for it...

Terrans should never and probably never will get reactor builds, the reason they shouldn't is for game balance reasons.

[r8rsfans75]

Terrans should never and probably never will get reactor builds, the reason they shouldn't is for game balance reasons.

<-- slaps Rossdie on the back of the head.

How dare you speak the summoning spell of "Avani's Wrath"?

<-- puts arms around head and awaits the fury.

[Jamosite]

+1 to Grendwal

+1 to Rossdie

[Lot]

Terrans should never and probably never will get reactor builds, the reason they shouldn't is for game balance reasons.

Just wondering what "balance reasons" they might be.

I don't get why Terrans can't build reactors either.

[Terrell [BT]]

Just wondering what "balance reasons" they might be.

I don't get why Terrans can't build reactors either.

Terrans are not race restricted on building, unlike the Progen Privateer & Jenquai Seeker. Because of this the TT can build more items than a PT or JT on the same build, in addition the TT can do it for less money than either the Seeker or Privateer since the TT has Neg 7 to the JT/PT Neg 5. Build Reactors is the one build that the Jenquai & Progen players can make that the Terran players cannot. If you give build reactors to a Terran, that Terran whether it's a TT, TW, or TE (Scout), can at worst match the JT/PT on price, and can build more reactors than either the JT or PT. This would mean that there's no building reason to make a JT or PT since if a Scout could build reactors she would build them better than a JT or PT. Also it's consistent with players not being able to build the thing that their race is weakest with. (No Jenquai shield builders, no Progen engine builders)

[seekeronos]

Welll, we do have certain thing we'd like to see in game...and some of us have our pet issues. Nothing short of the Second Coming of Mordane will see these changes:

Terrans (especially TT or TS) building reactors (Avani)

Jenquai Plasma Beams (Terrell)

L53 Terror Maws (Cooper Fish) dropping Bile ammo comps again (me)

Progens soloing L60+ mobs more effectively than other classes (some folks)

PVP (LordRayken)

We bring these things up from time to time when we've nothing else better to do

[rabidkiller]

people seem to forget how much easier than live the emulator has been, shame

[seekeronos]

people seem to forget how much easier than live the emulator has been, shame

Well, all things considered... it still is far easier than Live™:

Like most MMOs that seek toturn a profit, the EA servers were geared toward one main end - to keep you grinding levels, faction, and building with horrific rates of fail on rare/ubers in order for you to continue tossing $12 or more per month at EA for as long as it took them to grunt out the Sims Online, and sunset EnB possible...

I hope that the devs do not seek to emulate the difficulty of Live... in consideration of the fact that a good many of us aren't the same college kids we may have been 10 years ago with excess time to spare and cash to burn.

At the same time, we don't want it to be toooo easy, to the point of pressing the "F" key is like an "I WIN!1!!1!" key at every turn.

It's a delicate balancing act, I'd say.

[Lot]

Terrans are not race restricted on building, unlike the Progen Privateer & Jenquai Seeker. Because of this the TT can build more items than a PT or JT on the same build, in addition the TT can do it for less money than either the Seeker or Privateer since the TT has Neg 7 to the JT/PT Neg 5. Build Reactors is the one build that the Jenquai & Progen players can make that the Terran players cannot. If you give build reactors to a Terran, that Terran whether it's a TT, TW, or TE (Scout), can at worst match the JT/PT on price, and can build more reactors than either the JT or PT. This would mean that there's no building reason to make a JT or PT since if a Scout could build reactors she would build them better than a JT or PT. Also it's consistent with players not being able to build the thing that their race is weakest with. (No Jenquai shield builders, no Progen engine builders)

Thanks.