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Bovyne

JS - skill ideas / improvements?

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So I started a JS and was thinking about how it worked. It sure works great as a buffer, pretty well as trader. Combat has combat cloak, but is quite slow, though you can usually survive this time with the recharge shield. It is not weak as such, but slow is not fun. SO ideas below be nice to know if even possible.

First engine 8 max, which i agree with, but i wondered if maybe the JS could get a special device or reactor (for JS only, could be a q) that boost warp speed more than a RR+/reactor buff, maybe combined?? to be honest not being that high I am not sure it is needed but just and idea?

next was combat, I had 2 ideas , one that buffs the JS rate of fire, which could maybe be added to reactor optimization or be a different skill? better knowledge of power supply allowing faster fire of energy weapons, which would seem to fit.

Or a skill that fries the reactor of the target causing radiation damage to ship hull and shields and possible stops special skill use? It need not be huge (but enough to aid JS in combat maybe only 5 levels and also help groups with an interrupt?) with more damage to shield than hull, maybe lasts 3-4 secs, but with a 6 or more sec cool down. possible only works on ships not organics?

Another thing is that both JD and JE get a defensive shield, so maybe an offensive shield for the seeker so giving a % of damage taken back as feedback to the reactor of target causing damage to ship/shields?

I prefer the reactor frying not suggesting JS get them all though. more things to do = fun for me.

Was also thinking that for the 135 skill maybe a forced power shut down on target that disables it either until damage or for a set period. or just stops it firing, but allows other stuff? Edited by Bovyne

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I think that the biggest issue for the JT is that she doesn't bring enough to the table to be picked in a raid over a PT or TT when the group leader has the option of which trader to bring. Check out the Jenquai Seeker thread in the Player Advocate Forum.

JT has the decent builder part down, it's the master supporter part where she comes up lacking.

How much that will improve remains to be seen, as there are very few pieces of equipment specific to her. She does have the ability to debuff both of the 2 types of damage she's most likely to use, with devices that were available in Live. As far as I know, the JT is the least popular of the 3 new classes, she's able to do solo combat fairly effectively for a non-combat class, but she'll likely always be slow to kill things at or above her combat level.
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JE have no PSI shield. Their enviro shield does reduce and reflect damage, depending on the skill level, but it is not a PSI shield. With shield recharge the JS has no reason to have a PSI shield. It looks like the devs are running into the same problem that Westwood did with the new classes.

The big problem I see for the JS is that it doesn't have a skill to really kick it up a notch. I would love to see the class get something like a PSI Empowered skill (7 points) that increases reactor recharge and increases damage output/accuracy. Maybe at level 5 it becomes a group buff?
L1: 2%
L2: 4%
L3: 6%
L4: 8%
L5: 10%
L6: 12%
L7: 15%

The other idea I had, for a JS specific skill would be Mind Control. Using their superior PSI powers the JS could take control of the target mob/ship captain and force it to attack the JS's targeted mob for a number of seconds.
L1: 10 seconds
L2: 20 seconds
L3: 40 seconds
L4: 1 minute
L5: 1 minute and JS's target changes aggro to the mind controlled mob/ship for 15 seconds
L6: 1 minute and JS's target changes aggro to the mind controlled mob/ship for 15 secondsand mob/ship has a PSIonic effect when MC breaks that causes 5% total weapon damage in an AOE effect (Psionic explosion!)
L7: 1 minute and JS's target changes aggro to the mind controlled mob/ship for 15 seconds, and mob/ship has a PSIonic effect when MC breaks that causes 10% total weapon damage in an AOE effect (Psionic explosion!)

Adding an existing Jen skills such as PSI shield, Energy Leach, Enviro Shield, or Summon wouldn't really help distinguish the class but a class specific skill might.
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As a TT, I am always thrilled when a JS is in group, especially in raid formats. The energy buffs and optimization keeps me in power much much longer than if they were not there, and they do a fine job of healing as well. Another benefit to the JS in raids is, some of the mobs spread the love towards the healers, the JS doesn't get their attention near as much as a TT or PP.

Sure they aren't a killing machine, but neither is the TT. The Privateer is another story, a killing machine and healer all rolled into one.

In almost all of the "tuff" raids, ie: GoBB, the JS makes a huge difference in the outcome. :D
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Energy buffs, other than Reactor Optimization, are not unique to the JT. All Jenquai have some useful energy buffs to give a group. It's great that the JT has reactor opt, but I think she needs more, particularily if the group, for whatever reason, doesn't want to carry 2 traders.
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Adding an increase to their own haste/accuracy and some of that to their party would seem to a good way to help.

On a completely off the wall idea maybe (if it was at all possible) with the reactor building and engine building skills they can create a drone or basically a pet! or maybe a few pets but with different abilities to help dps, or a buff or tank maybe? know this is probably very hard to do or impossible, but would be fun i think.

any way I do think the JS needs something more combat related, and if it can be useful to a group even better.

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I mentioned a confuse skill as a possibility for this class in the JT thread. It would reduce mobs' fire rate, skill use, and frequency/effectiveness of mob skill use. It would start with only one of those effects but increase as you raise the skill. This skill would not break if the mob was hit by damage or debuffs, but would have a duration (which may be changed as necessary for balance) and would have an energy requirement comparable to the same level of Recharge Shields, before any skill buffs are involved. This skill would not immobilize the mob or make it unable to attack, it would simply lower the mob's combat effectiveness for the duration of the skill. (May even cause the mob to shoot at other mobs temporarily, it doesn't de-aggro from you, and can still shoot you, but sometimes it's confused and shoots other mobs by mistake). At L7 I'd want this skill to have a range of 5.0K.

The JT also needs equipment, of all types. There needs to be some stuff with activated buffs to assist other players and debuff mobs, but in new ways that haven't been seen before if possible. Most of these activatables should be on devices, but some being on reactors, and rarely engines would be nice.

If there are to be new JT only engines, and it's intended for her to use them in combat or support, they must have low signatures. Since as a Jenquai, the Seeker should be the stealthy, explore/device orientated trader, no JT engine intended for use in combat or support should have a signature higher than 1.0. Otherwise expect JTs with L8 engines will seek out the L8 Solar Sail, as high sig engines are an incredibly bad idea for a fragile race that relies heavily on stealth. Not much point in making JT travel engines, unless you're going to go outside the box with something new, as a high warp Terran engine can get the job done without need for it even being PM.
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ok so was playing a PP, which is much much quicker to kill things and has the shield recharge for survivability. What i did notice however, was that I had to be more carefully with my reactor bar, could use it up pretty quickly. Now with the JS I have a hard time using all the power I have. SO what I thought is that what the JS need is something to use up that reactor power, but that uses a lot of reactor power. I was thinking maybe a skill that allows the JS to use his reactor as a weapon, blasts the enemy with reactor energy straight from the reactor, this will do good damage to the target until cancelled or reactor runs out of power, it will drain the reactor fairly fast though (thinking maybe can only use for 6 to 8 secs before reactor (of right level) drained) which will limited how much this is used as you will want to use recharge shield and so on.
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I think that the JT's support skills, equipment need to be looked at first, but I also agree that her DPS is weak. I don't think that the JT's DPS will be raised much, maybe a little, since she's an Explorer/Trader and she probably has to be DPS wise behind the TT (Trader/Trader), and the PT (Warrior/Trader). She may need a line of devices that improve her DPS a little beyond what she gets from her debuffers.

A line of low siggy (0.7 K or less) JT only engines, starting @ L3, that have a small, but increasing with level & quality buff to Beam focus, and at L8 add a second buff of either Projectile Force or beam range, would give a small DPS improvement for the class. If putting it on a line of low siggy engines is too much, then perhaps it could be on a line of reactors alternate to the Gallina/Draco/Cygnus (same levels) line, or even *gasp* a line of 6 or 10 second Nishido, Sharim, or GETCo Plasma beams with average DPS per level (L4-L9).
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I think this battle could go on forever.

What might be something to consider is that maybe we can
configure a character skill sets like:

Warrior Could either be a Meat shield,DPS or Group Hull bonus
Traders Could either be a Healer,Reactor or Speed demons or (what ever)
Explorers Could be a Miners, Group buffer or (what ever)

I know its a little like this now but how about If you choose the Path of
Healer you will suffer a -1 skill level bonus for any other major skill.
Warrior could either be a Meat shield or Insane DPS, Looseing Level 9 shields etc etc.
Naaa thats too confusing.. :P What was I thinking.....

Kind of like How World of Warcraft is.

For the sake of disscussion.

Phorlaug....

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well yes i am sure some devices might be able to make up for it, but its not just the lower dps that a JT does but also the boredom, just sitting there firing (although combat cloak helps a bit)but nothing else to do, specially in combat other than shield recharge.I would just like another option to use in combat as well as the higher dps. I am not asking for becoming better than a TT though. Just not so far behind.

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I agree with you on the not so far behind. I think she's way behind in combat support, in that all she can do is recharge shields and buff reactors, a JE or TT can also do that, and probably better. That IMO is a dire problem with this class, she doesn't have much she can do, in support that cannot be done better by either a JE or a TT. Reactor Opt is all she has distinctive but at least it does stack with the buffs a JE can provide.

I'd also agree that she's behind in Combat, and needs some improvement there. Generally when I fight with my JT I use her Fold Space skill, way more than I use her Recharge Shields Skill. If there's a straggler, away from a group of mobs, I cloak, close, debuff, fire, turn away from the other mobs, and teleport the mob in the direction I'm facing (L3 Fold Space does this). I repeat the cloak, close, fire, teleport routine until the mob is dead. This is a slow process, but it does help isolate an enemy from a group & reduces the amount of hits you take.

This will get more difficult when mobs learn to resist skill use. Spamming Recharge Shields will not work as effectively either, when mobs become able to interrupt player skill use, so yeah, the JT does definitely need a little improvement in direct combat, and a very large improvement in combat support. IMO she should get improvements in both offensive & defensive support abilities, along with something that helps her a bit solo. These improvements, whether they're by skills or equipment, need to be good enough to compete with the TT's combo of Recharge Shields, Hull Patch, and Shield Charging. Some of this will have to be her 135 skill, some will have to be her activatables, and she may need to get another skill in addition to 135 (which may require her to lose Build Engines).

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What might be useful is to know what can be done? can you add a new skill? can you adjust another to add new effects? I only assume you can add a skill because of past post i read where it appears skills added, but they where generally skill already in game rather than completely new.

Another idea I have would be to use "reactor knowledge" to "over charge" weapons causing them to fire and do 2 or 3 times the normal damage, with a 6 or so sec cd maybe? Need testing to see how the combat cloak/over charge combo goes but could only really do it once per combat cloak? hopefully skill would not affect normal firing of weapons if possible. This would take a fair amount of reactor power to do.

Or on a similar idea could super charge weapons to do 2 times damage over 6 secs with weapons using 3 times the energy?

Anyhow hope you get the drift

Oh the graphic effect for this might be some lightning effect on body of craft and/or what ever you firing being thicker and brighter than normal. Edited by Bovyne

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I think the devs mentioned that they have a limited ability to add new skills, but I don't know how far that limit goes. Reactor Optimization, Null-Factor are 2 skills that weren't around in Live that the devs thought up. Afterburn, was actually a skill that the original documents had described for the Terran Scout.

In the Janus documents there are skills that aren't used, whether it's by the original classes, or the 3 new ones (when the EMU devs brought in the 3 new classes they had no unique skills). I suspect, but could be totally wrong, that how many skills they can add, without a new client, is limited by the number of unused skills that can either be used, or redesigned as new skills.

I do wonder what limitations they have on effects that can be done with devices, and other types of equipment. If we knew those limitations, we could have better discussions on how we can bring the JT, as well as the Terran Scout up to speed. Both classes need work, but I suspect that the JT needs it a little more.

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How about this as the Jenquai Seekers skill.
Weapons Specialist.
[img]http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s103/phorlaug/newJSskill.jpg[/img]


The skill would stack with any activate Buffs.
Hell the Devs can make it a Activate buff but I would think we
wouldn't want another timer.
The Energy conservation would fit nicely with the JSeeker :)

Phor...

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[quote name='Phorlaug' timestamp='1320221119' post='47935']
How about this as the Jenquai Seekers skill.
Weapons Specialist.
[img]http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s103/phorlaug/newJSskill.jpg[/img]


The skill would stack with any activate Buffs.
Hell the Devs can make it a Activate buff but I would think we
wouldn't want another timer.
The Energy conservation would fit nicely with the JSeeker :)

Phor...
[/quote]

That sounds like a nice idea. I'd make one modification to it, make it a L7 skill. Classes, IMO, shouldn't have defining skills that are only L5 because they can max it with Combat, Explore, or Trade level 25 rather than requiring Combat, Trade, or Explore Level 45, and with only 10 skill points instead of 21. Also Beams would come first, then Projectiles, then Missiles, since that's the order of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary weapons as applied to the Jenquai.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1320251487' post='47944']
That sounds like a nice idea. I'd make one modification to it, make it a L7 skill. Classes, IMO, shouldn't have defining skills that are only L5 because they can max it with Combat, Explore, or Trade level 25 rather than requiring Combat, Trade, or Explore Level 45, and with only 10 skill points instead of 21. Also Beams would come first, then Projectiles, then Missiles, since that's the order of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary weapons as applied to the Jenquai.
[/quote]
Agreed, It should be a skill that you would have to make a big decision on at a late character development stage, and save the points to make it happen. Do you save the skill points for some thing else thats more trade or explore oriented.
Hell this skill can be used for every Class and profession that wants to be combat.

Lol, I did the Projectile first because, well you know I was always leaning toward PLs for the JSeeker. :)

Phorlaug

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While it is a good idea for a skill that's unique, I do not think it addresses the way the JS fights and does not add to the interest of playing a JS. Also the the JS already has the reactor buff for a unique buff. The JS really does not need another buff, what it needs is something that can aid in combat and is reactive (yes this does but only slightly and passively), and useful to a group if possible.

If you go the whole hog i would, take the PS shield and give it to JS, ie when fired upon it does damage back to the firer, which does more than the JE reflect possible making the reflected damage off the total damage ( a bit JD like) ie damage 100 reflect 20 damage done to you 80, while giving the PS a similar shield as the PW and PP get. This could be cast on group member in-particular the tank types. (not my favorite choice but it would help and I believe would be doable)

The PS getting fear which is counter to a shield doing damage when hit, would seem better with a skill that makes his shield a weapon. OR maybe allow his prospect beam to do damage similar to the shield weapon skill the PP /PW have?

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I think that the Seeker does need something else that only she can do. If it's something doable by some other class, then it doesn't give people reason to pick her over that other class, for that last slot. Now what we need to do to bring her up to speed is open to debate, but I think that most of the healing in a raid is going to be done by the TTs that are available, since of the 3 traders he's the best healer.

Here's what I think will occur when major raids need multiple groups, and multiple professions to accomplish successfully; absent some improvement in the JT. This would apply to the fishbowl and other major raids.

PW/TW: fight.
JW: Medevac or fight, maybe some debuffing
JE: JS downed players, Blind mobs, Debuff Plasma, provide energy, buff deflects.
TE: JS downed players, Debuff Explosive, occasional Hull Patch, buff deflects
PE: JS downed Players, Some DPS, Menace, buff deflects
TT: The lion's share of the healing
PT: Fight, some healing.
JT: At bar in starbase drinking appletinis & wine coolers. No invite for her.

So what can we do for JTs so they're needed in major raid groups? Whatever it is, whether it's through new activatables, skills, or some other means, it needs to be good enough for groups to need it, and unique enough that you have to bring a JT to get it.

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[quote name='Terrell' timestamp='1320359105' post='47983']
I think that the Seeker does need something else that only she can do. If it's something doable by some other class, then it doesn't give people reason to pick her over that other class, for that last slot. Now what we need to do to bring her up to speed is open to debate, but I think that most of the healing in a raid is going to be done by the TTs that are available, since of the 3 traders he's the best healer.

Here's what I think will occur when major raids need multiple groups, and multiple professions to accomplish successfully; absent some improvement in the JT. This would apply to the fishbowl and other major raids.

PW/TW: fight.
JW: Medevac or fight, maybe some debuffing
JE: JS downed players, Blind mobs, Debuff Plasma, provide energy, buff deflects.
TE: JS downed players, Debuff Explosive, occasional Hull Patch, buff deflects
PE: JS downed Players, Some DPS, Menace, buff deflects
TT: The lion's share of the healing
PT: Fight, some healing.
JT: At bar in starbase drinking appletinis & wine coolers. No invite for her.

So what can we do for JTs so they're needed in major raid groups? Whatever it is, whether it's through new activatables, skills, or some other means, it needs to be good enough for groups to need it, and unique enough that you have to bring a JT to get it.
[/quote]

I agree, basically what the JS need is something to aid its solo play and groups.

example, overcharge weapons, the first few would be just to improve solo play, from increase weapon damage by 25% for x secs, to 75% for x seconds, then the rest slowly aid group bonus, so 100% for JS and 10% to group members, up to 200% for JS and 50% for group maybe? obviously numbers and duration can be modified allow some balance with other classes and where JS should be on the damage/buff scale

that would be my template for a skill anyway.

though you could as i said remove the damage shield from ps and give it to JS which would then be useful for the tanks/fighters. And give the ps something else. though that would probably spring up another debate.

I did start this mainly to get feedback and start discussion about the JS, so I see no point of view as wrong or right other than the JS to me needs something more. It needs to be fun, I find playing the PP great for instance, and the JE is great fun too, both have that extra combat skill as well as the other useful bits and I think in this game all classes really need this. SO far we seem to be having a good discussion. I have not really play terrans so I can not comment much on them and that would be up to others. Edited by Bovyne

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IMO, Any new skill or group bonus no matter what it is should
not have a timer attached to it.
Invite a JSeeker to a group and get its Bonus automatically.

Timers/Buff durations are One cause of lag issues iirc. The Passive group buff
will and should stack with most of the already activate buffs in game
IE; Contained Voltoi essence, Aegis Of the Warder, Bulwark of the Reaver, aa Gahte Y
etc etc..

We have Hull Damage control, Reactor Reageneration and Critical Targeting and Shield regeneration as passive buffs. Weapons Energy Conservation and Turbo weapons are 2 passive group buff benefits not in game. The two could be split up to be use for any class or profession to use Either/Or Or both.

I'm not sure if a Character's Passive Skill would stack, with an Items Passive equip buff and an activate buff. Awesome but over the top ?? 3 stacking buffs !

Phor....

edit: Typo

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I'm okay with a group bonus, but I think something the JT can use, on all players in a raid, rather than just group members would be better. It would also be consistent with the support skills of the Explorers and the TT not requiring group membership for use. Jumpstart, Recharge Shields, Hull Patch, Shield Charging can be cast on any player regardless of group membership, any new skills for the JT need to do the same.

This is especially important since now the number of available classes is greater than the number of slots in a group.

Odds are devs are going to have to look at the raids themselves, and rebalance them in such a way that you need multiple groups, and between the groups all classes are needed. If the raids can be done by groups leaving some classes home, then that's what the players will ultimately do, as it won't make sense to bring them or share loot with them.

Alpha will definitely be interesting, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some threads comparable to the recent threads about the PW. I think that in the end it'll all balance out, for the good of the game, even though I think every class will have someone angry about it at some point, while it's being worked on.

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Wouldn't something beyond the WoW combat model captivate users more another copy of the 'standard' combat model?

Crowd control
* A short-term 'neutralization' skill, that sticks an opponent in a space-time bubble for a while, unable to attack or be attacked.
* A wormhole-an-opponent skill that sends an opponent *much* farther away than Fold Space. This would have to be on a longish timer.

Debuffing of a sort
* A skill that makes an opponent much more vulnerable to having skill use interrupted.
* A skill that makes opponents take damage when they heal, or when they use skills.
* A skill that makes opponents have trouble targetting (with the effect of Cloak, but applied to an enemy, so that everyone is cloaked to them).

Targetting(?) enhancement
* For a very short period (a few seconds) make an opponent easy to hit. I like this a lot because it requires group coordination to be effective, and therefore player skill. Combat with a player learning curve is more engrossing than button-mashing.

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Good ideas Daulnay. Those could provide both a L7 skill, and a couple of device lines.

The first one could be a device line L3-L9 JT only, and as you increase your device level, the likelyhood of it hitting increases, and the duration gets longer.

The second one could be a L8 or L9 device and have a cooldown timer longer than a Martyr's Heart. (JT Only)

The Debuffing of a sort category could be a L7 skill. L1 and L2 would give the first ablity, L3-4, the Second one, L5 the third, L6 area of effect on the first 2 abilities, and L7 area of effect on all of them. Requires EL45 to max the skill. The last effect would probably be a partial cloak, rather than a full cloak. On second thought, L6 and L7 without the area of effect, instead target the mob in question rather than draw the additional aggro from mobs not targeted. Equipment support would also be needed.

Targeting enhancement, sounds like a good line of devices, but I'd give that line to the Scout instead of the JT. L3-L9, PM devices, range comparable to a Coma of the same level.

Or these all could be lines of devices and split between the Seeker and Scout. Some Hyperia others Sundari/Sharim. For these 2 classes the buffs, effects, and debuffs should be the primary reasons they're brought along.

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