Build Quality and Quality Damage - What gives?

[seekeronos]

a bit flustered with how the quality damage works.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I seem to remember only getting dings and dents only if i got KO'ed (killed) by a mob.

Recently, I am getting damage (most notably to my non-manu equipment more so than rebuild-able gear) by only taking hull damage (usually ticks a point or two once my hull goes under 50% strength)

Quite annoying, as I went with almost a full group to FB to do some ammo parts. We had a few unwanted adds, and I did not die, but was down to 12% hull before we got bck to a safer area. My nice new CFB isnow at 195%, and WH9 at 198%

Further compounding the annoyance is not being able to rebuild *consistently* prized L9 gear back to 200% using PM parts and vendor only/loot only non manu parts (100%)

The builders in question here have most if not all available maps in game, and OL150+ / capped build skill levels; she needed six tries to get that WH9 to 200%, with an average build being 175%. All using 200%PM ad 100% non-manu parts.

Was it this difficult to build 200% in Live, and did getting damaged always known 2%-4% quality?

[sunvillage]

I have to admit that I had part in initiating this poll/thread.

Seeker approached me and wanted his Warriors Heart 9 rebuilt after taking a quality hit.

Not having the time at that moment, I gave him the 200% one I had on my PP and went to rebuild it after I returned from work.

Well, it took me 6 tries to get a 200 again. And you have to rip the failed one all the way back to L6 and rip and rebuild all comps, which is a tedious process in itself.

What really got to me was the fact, that all failed attempts came out at the lower margin, despite the fact that I ONLY used 200% comps. Let's say the range was 171 to 200, with 200% (!) expected. All failed attempts were between 172 and 178, at the lower end.

I'd expect a more balanced outcome, with results in the 190+ range. I estimate my PP has about 80% of all possible reactor prints.

This brings me to another topic, the influence of the number of prints in a specific area (shield, reactor, weapon, etc) on your success chance. I fully support the idea, that a builder with many prints in his list put more effort in learning his business and should be rewarded with better results. IMO it still needs tweaking though.

A guildie of mine went through it to the max and managed to get all available weapons printed, pushing his range to 192-200 with 200 expected, even on the "rare" weapons like Bile Cannon/Launcher, Brimstone Ballista and the like.

My PP on the other hand has every available shield printed and the range for a CFB is 151-200, with 185 expected.

It looks to me like the calculation takes into account the absolute number of prints in a specific area which causes a strong bias towards weapons or even towards Terrans who don't have to obey any race restrictions.

I suggest it should take into account the % of the AVAILABLE prints to your race/class you included in your build list. This might be harder to code, as the # of available prints changes over time and has to be kept up to date, but should be looked into anyway.

[Terrell [BT]]

What I think is if you take hull damage, there should be some chance of taking quality damage, but most of the time it shouldn't happen. If you have damage control modifiers, whether it's by skill, or equipment, then you should be less likely to take damage both in terms of structure and quality. HDC should affect all equipment, while specific damage control mods from equipment should only affect that type of equipment. (There was a device I used in Live on my JE that gave Device damage control for example. The Hercules If I recall Correctly) I think that hard to come by gear, irreplacable gear, should be a little tougher to ding quality on. Especially non-manu equipment that is a mission reward from a non-repeatable mission. Most quality loss should IMO be in the 1%-2% per time you take quality damage. It should be possible to take quality damage on more than one item at a time, but getting your hull scratched and getting 10+% damage is too much IMO. If there was a quality repair NPC/terminal (Non-Manu only), F7 would be the place for it IMO, then quality damage should probably be 1-3% per incident, depending on how expensive quality repair is.

On building, I think that if you are using PM parts (Non-manu parts should count as PM), have max skill, great faction @ build location, TL50, an extensive recipe list in the type of equipment you're building, and a improved build device, you should have a very good chance of getting 200% quality and probably shouldn't get lower than 190% building L9 equipment. The fewer of those things you have the lower your chances of that item getting 200%, and the lower your expected quality should be on a piece of equipment. If you have max build skill, max TL, and you're building an item L5 or lower you should get 200% almost every time.

[bondct]

i didnt like this question

Should mobs consistenly inflict quality damage if:

there should be an answer that says does not consistently... raid mobs are +13 or ? and some classes say tt's in ter dosengil (cant remember zone name exactly) where ko's everytime they recharged shields..

q% loss should really be extremely rare on loot only items and very rare on L9 stuff... especially since the current rebuild situation is crap... sorry I know devs are working hard... but imho building is crap atm... it is totally random as far as I am concerned... I will have max skill and fail on L6 dismantles... or take 4 tries to get 200% on a L5 or L7 item... sorry ill stop the rant... Q% loss needs to be like non exsistent at this point imo

also imo we should be focusing on other things and that q% loss should be turned off and moved down the list...

[r8rsfans75]

If you have max build skill, max TL, and you're building an item L5 or lower you should get 200% almost every time.

I would take this a little further, I think if you have max TL and max build skill, you should be able to build 200% items up to lvl 7 about 98% of the time. I have my weapons build skill maxed, TL is almost to 50, and it took me 4 tries to get a L6 Longbow to 200%.

As far as the effect of how many of a certain item you have mapped, I think it should be specific all the way down to the level. If you have all lvl 9 projectiles mapped, you should have the best chance at 200% quality with any lvl 9 projectile regardless of how many of the previous levels of projectiles you have mapped. (If I know the technology required to build a current year vehicle of any model, should it matter whether or not I know how well to build all the vehicles made in 1995?)

[Suricata79[IS]]

As Tienbau has pointed out in another thread (and myself is yet another), the code for equipment damage and building/analising was written quite a while ago and does need revising. and when the time permits, these will be looked into again.

As per my responce in another thread:-

Item damage is somthing I'm looking into right now. Basically, when you got a crit on your hull there was a chance your item durability would go down as well as a small (as in very very small) chance your item quality would go down, although restricting it to KO only would be fine. The % was usually 1% and having equipment damage control reduced the chance of item durabilty or item quality loss significantly. I remember ensuring I had items with the equipment damage control bufffs for this very reason, even if it meant lowering my DPS!

As for Build qualities (and printing), Factors that should be taken into account:-

Build skill lvl, which is helped out with build increase devices (Items 2-3 lvl's below your build skill lvl should start getting 200% everytime, prints 4.5 below should have high chances of getting)

Players faction at the station should increase/decrease quality (so got stations where you have good faction)

Number of recipes player has (This would be a tiny ammount per item, that would slowly add up, which obviously helps Traders be better overall builders)

Being grouped with players (and thier faction been good at that station)

If you are using high quality componants (player made), I'd guess taking all the componant's % and finding the average would be the best way to do this, since some items vary in number of comps)

If you are standing on one leg, patting your head and rubbing your tummy at the same time

I'm pretty sure Teinbau already has some ideas on how to code all of this in :-)

[seekeronos]

I'd love to see that vendor only- parts (stuff like Warlock, K3, Quark parts) or loot-only/non-manu comps (like "Eye of the Zethren'Ti") would rate as 200% automatically ... since there is no way to PM these parts.

Unless of course, that is part of the "risk factor" in building some of the uber weapons/devices/equipment and using recipes with these non-manu comps.

[Riia [LDEV]]

a bit flustered with how the quality damage works.

Perhaps I'm wrong here, but I seem to remember only getting dings and dents only if i got KO'ed (killed) by a mob.

Recently, I am getting damage (most notably to my non-manu equipment more so than rebuild-able gear) by only taking hull damage (usually ticks a point or two once my hull goes under 50% strength)

Quite annoying, as I went with almost a full group to FB to do some ammo parts. We had a few unwanted adds, and I did not die, but was down to 12% hull before we got bck to a safer area. My nice new CFB isnow at 195%, and WH9 at 198%

Hi

Here is a link to a discussion on EBportal from live on this subject. http://web.archive.org/web/20040426064543/www.ebportal.com/forum/topic/3/2740

Riia

[Falstar [MOD]]

- Clarified one question (missing the out from 'without') and added a few more options to some questions to represent all aspects brought into question. Previous options of the question only allowed for KO answers. Vote away!

[Nkata]

I'm not overly into the response options for the poll... So here goes:

Note: when I say "quality" I don't mean the number listed in the items description, I mean the difference between low lvl vs. high lvl and that a high lvl item is obviously a higher quality item in general.

First of all, I don't believe in live you took equipment damage for having your hull damaged - this is makes being a warrior class very costly and ineffective since it's pretty much assumed that you'll be getting your hull hit if you're tanking.

I think another thing to consider is that while we have such a low player base now, it's fairly easy to get loot-only high end gear again if something becomes damaged. But once that number starts increase, the harder and harder it will be to get these items; making equipment damage all the more frustrating for players.

I think equipment damage should be similar to your ability to hit a mob higher than you. As you upgrade your weapons and it's ability, your accuracy gets much better. In live this was a two-part calculation. The higher your ability counted as part and the level of the weapon counted as the other because each level of weapon gets better accuracy (this is what I am focusing on).

For instance; lets say your at lvl9 projectiles (also implying that you're CL 50 and a Progen - substitute for your race and main weapon type). If you slap in a lvl1 projectile and fire at a CL60 mob, you're going to miss a lot. Not because your skills are weak, but because of the inherent quality/accuracy of the lvl1 weapon is low. Now throwing in a lvl9 projectile and it's extremely rare for you to miss at all because of the inherent quality/accuracy of the lvl9 projectile is much higher.

The same concept should be applied to how you incur damage to your equipment. Getting killed with lvl1 gear should greatly increase your chances of damage being taken to your equipment because it's lvl1 and the quality of the a lvl1 item is low. Whereas the ratio of taking damage should be far lower on lvl9 gear because it's of superior quality.

As for builds...

This one really frustrates me. One of my toons is a lvl9 device builder and I've had to go through multiple level 2 items just to get them mapped or completely dismantled and that should not be the happening.

I'm iffy about the idea of just because I have everything mapped, I should have a great chance to build a 200% item. What if I have everything shield in the game mapped that's possible for my race and I've never built one... should I be able to turn around an whip out a 200% CFB?

Granted I do think that mapping, dismantling and building ("actions") should increase your overall underlining skill the more you do them for each level. I feel like building should work like so:

Each level you start out with a base success chance to reach 200%.

• Lets say you get a default of 20% for your current build level.
• You then gain 20% to each build level below as you upgrade your skill.
  • So if you're build lvl3; your lvl3 base skill is 20%... lvl2 is 40% and lvl1 is 60%

  [*]Actions would increase the base chance for the level of the item you're doing said action to. We'll say 0.25%

  • Lets take a lvl9 build skill with the following scenario
    • I'm trying to build a lvl8 item (base chance is 40% since I am lvl9 build devices)
    • I have preformed 100 actions on lvl8 items in the past... this should add a +25% chance (100 x 0.25% = 25%)
      • Yes, 100 items are a lot but when you think about long term, it's really not. You might want to remove ammo from this as it could be a potential loop hole. Or make it extremely low to increase your chances - like 0.025% or lower

      [*]My base chance to build a 200% lvl8 item would be 65% (40 base + 25 through actions I've done previously)

You should probably hard cap the success chance regardless of your build skill or chance obtained through actions (90-95% maybe?)

I like this way of doing things a lot because if gives heavy builders the ability to have an upper hand when it comes to building and selling quality items - which they should have if they're building all of the time and also prevents someone from just building 200% lvl9 items willy nilly. This also gives builders an obtainable goal to reach too... kind of like builder leveling. And this math should be applied to every build skill not your building abilities in general. E.g. me making 100 projectiles should increase my ability to build weapons but it should have no effect on my ability to build shields.

And there's my two cents.

Edited August 2, 2010 by JoshuaChr

[seekeronos]

... //bunch of stuff about leveling building skill

I think that's a pretty cool idea, in general. Though I think that building stuff for the sake of leveling of build skills should be limited to specific lines of builds - skill up each build skill, like building engines to level your engine build skill, devices for device skill, etc.

This is not unlike the implementation of leveling building skill in FFXI where building a lot of something would increase your build skill.

And perhaps producing a successful build at 200% at current level would also roll for a larger skill bonus (0.25% for a regular successful build, 100% - 199%, and 1.00% for a 200% build) would rock.

[GenghisBob]

Ammo is a bit different. All player built ammo is always 200%. Otherwise, it wouldn't stack. You could fill up your hold real fast if all your ammo had different build quality.

[bondct]

Ammo is a bit different. All player built ammo is always 200%. Otherwise, it wouldn't stack. You could fill up your hold real fast if all your ammo had different build quality.

yes but ammo made by 2 different players does not stack

[starsz]

From memory, It would take 4-5 deaths before it needed repairing (by a Warrior or returning to the station)

Quality loss was rare (20-30 deaths and you would loose 1-2%)

Comps didnt have Build quality on them, so it didnt make any diff if was vendor or PM comps

200% was fairly common place on max lvl gear if you had a Matrix for correct building, with duct tape and over rides.

[Aragorn]

So I see that quality damage is back in. I was just in the FB and died and my Fury of the Ten-Gu lost 10% quality. I thought this was fixed? Should we expect this as the new norm? I lost 4% on an Archos the other day (not as big of a deal), and that time, i was spamming repair equipment, but nothing was taking structural damage so it didnt do anything. I just all of a sudden lost the quality when I died.